"Live 8"....is it bollocks?.........

[MrMacphisto]

I think the best metaphor (if that's the right word), is one that a BBC presenter said: If the world was reversed and it was your family that was going to starve to death/ die of disease/ be murdered in the middle of the night by the government etc, wouldn't you want something done about it? And how would you feel if everyone else in the world looked the other way and then complained that their money was being spent on saving your life?



And that's why we should try and change all that.

I totally agree with you on all of this, but trying to change it is quite difficult. Our species is notoriously stubborn.

The real trick in enacting change is to get the average small-minded idiot to follow whatever cause you support. People aren't really that difficult to manipulate, and if you can make them feel guilty enough, then every once in a while, the end result of their collective actions serves the greater good. I think this is what these concerts are about. Since the average human isn't exactly a scholar on world affairs, celebrities have to smack the people in the forehead a few extra times to get them to notice what's going on overseas. It usually helps if you're entertaining their short attention spans at the same time as you're informing them, so hence, the concerts are arranged.

Of course, the inherent hypocrisy of a rich person telling us about something he/she can do a lot about by themselves is an obvious hurdle in conveying this message, but you'd think you might be able to get the attention of enough people who can see past this and then, you can make a difference along with them. Something that helps immensely is when one of the celebrities involved in the publicity stunt dumps a massive amount of money into the cause. As much as I despise Bill Gates's business practices, he does contribute millions upon millions to charity. That's more than I can say for most multi-billionaires. I'd like to see Rupert Murdoch do something like that. Anyway, Gates happens to be a part of this concert event, and he's contributed enough to the cause to get my respect, if nothing else....

 

[MrMacphisto]

Absolutley. I've become more and more depressed as I've seen sentiments like those expressed here posted all over the web in the build up to live 8 and in the aftermath. If we have really become this cynical as a species it's time to tear it down and give the ants a go.

The thought has crossed my mind as well.... but I don't happen to have a nuclear arsenal at my disposal. *snaps fingers*

Increased aid will cost more, true, but the numbers aren't actually that huge. America for instance is saying it will double aid by an additional 8.3 Billion Dollars. Sounds a lot? That's about $15 bucks per capita per year. And, to put that in perspective, the defence budget for the USA in the current year jumped by 20 Billion Dollars. Providing fair trade to Africa would allow them, in theory anyway, to work their way out of poverty, thereby reducing and eventually eliminating their need for aid. The packages being discussed have clauses designed to reduce corruption and maybe, just maybe, they'll buy enough time for real genuine political change to come to Africa.

Ah, but you forget that Americans would rather spend hundreds of times more on the military instead. It's funny how that works, isn't it?

And to those bitching about stars never giving their own money (Examples picked from the names complained about above):

U2 are donating over £3 Million to Make Poverty History
Elton John has donated over £42 Million to charity in 2004
Madonna donated $2 Million to victims of 9/11 and their families

Fact is most stars do donate to charity but most don't make a huge deal out of it because they're in a no-win situation. If they advertise they're "doing it for the publicity", if they don't they "never give their own money".

For the currency-impaired, 3 million pounds is roughly 5.3 million dollars, and 42 million pounds is roughly 74 million dollars, and so on....

That Bill Hicks quote is good, and by the way, thanks for dropping in, BOFH...

 

[venray]

Yesterday I thought that maybe, just MAYBE, there was hope for us collectivley to do something good and noble and right. Today I see those hopes drowning in a sea of cynicism. I think Bill Hicks said it best:

Nope. Don't you believe that for a second, Mate!.....

There are many that got the message and became more aware yesterday...

There is really hope for making a difference this time around and not just because of the concert event...

People are TALKING.....for the first time in decades people are aware of the problem and are TALKING.....next step.....DOING....

 

[BOFH666]

Nope. Don't you believe that for a second, Mate!.....

There are many that got the message and became more aware yesterday...

There is really hope for making a difference this time around and not just because of the concert event...

People are TALKING.....for the first time in decades people are aware of the problem and are TALKING.....next step.....DOING....

Uh, well... actually the next step is to keep them talking for more than about two weeks and THEN we'll focus on the doing part but here's hoping.

 

[venray]

I'm with you , Mate!

So with all of this being said, how many of you are willing to donate just 5 minutes of your time....TIME, nothing more....to go to www.one.org
and sign the petition?

Time to DO something, no matter how small it seems to be on the surface...


Ray

 

[BOFH666]

And once you're done pop over here as well:

http://www.live8live.com/list/

It'll take about thirty seconds.

 

[venray]

Done!... 🙂

 

[JohnnyB]

The sad part is, most people reading this couldn't give a pair of fetid dingo kidneys to signing a petition. 🙁

And I don't appreciate all that ant talk! I've seen them in my garden and their up to something!

 

[venray]

i disagree JB..I have found MOST people here on the TMF to really care about others...I have had the pleasure of meeting over 100 of our members in person over the last 4 years and have "talked" back and forth with far more than that.

I have found that there are only a small minority of folks that dont give a rat's ass about others. (none of those I have met fit that catagory)

That is one of the things that makes this forum a rather special community.


Ray

 

[red indian]

Thanks for the responce!......

.......lots of interesting replies, and mainly without decending in to foul language and personal abuse of other posters, jolly well done!


As usual MrMcphisto gives me lots of food for thought.

Also, as usual, a number of posters take me to task for things I have clearly not said, anywhere, at all, in my post.

I am quite happy for pop/celebs to take on good causes and helping Africa our of its problems it clearly worthy of their attention, yes people are starving and it needs sorting out, thats all fine and dandy.

However I feel i have the right also to critisize and question the whole process, philosophy and implementation of the scheme.

I think it should be clearly explained what exactly "writing off debt relief" means, I want to know. Those governments who have arranged these massive loans and who are now writing them off have no doubt included the repayments in their fiscal policies, and they will have formed part of those governments financial projections for many years in advance.

Those projections and expected returns in the form of interest and repayment of the principle are now "history"

As we all know, books have to be balanced and as I have stated in my opening post no government( in the g8 at least) has its own money, its money is tax collected from you and me. It is tax money that was used for the loans and it is tax money that is now being written off.

I think that it will be increased taxes that will fill the hole in the g8 governments finances.

If this is the case (and I may be totally wrong) then I want to be told.



Africa has other massive problems wich Bono and Geldoff for some reason keep well clear of. Desease is a massive problem, Civil war and lastly, undemocratic tin pot murderous governmental regimes.

These are the big problems, and chucking my tax or Bonos millions at it will not help any. We have been pissing money all over Africa for decades, its done virtually nothing to help. Most of it is diverted in to arms purchasing, bribes, palaces, numbered swiss bank accounts and so on.

Why does Bob Geldoff has nothing to say about the people in charge of Africa? why has he no swear words to unleash on the nut case dictators and their corrupt beaurocracies? Why has he nothing to say about President Mugabe who is systematically trashing a once thriving economy, mudering and torturing his apponents and starving large sections of is populace to death.

What a lot of these countries need is, well, sorry to say it guys.....Regime change, but we all know how unpopular that can be when it is brought about by external influences.

 

[JohnnyB]

I think that it will be increased taxes that will fill the hole in the g8 governments finances.

This money does NOT come from raised taxes. You pay your taxes and the government decides what to do with it. Our governments gave out a sum as a loan to third world countries to help them along, expecting the sum and it's interest back. To call off debt means to cancel all debt, so these countries who are crippled with loan repayments, can focus on self development.

Though I have to agree with regime change, and Bushes way would work (unlike in Iraq and Afghanistan), because it's only a few major people who need to be removed, as opposed to an entire society that's wiped out. It's sad to admit that violence is the answer, and there are other options available like putting trade bans and a whole heap of other inaffective ways of wasting time and lives. Maybe they'll find another way, but considering the frosty reception Live 8 got, who knows?

And another thing we have to bear in mind is Africa is in the state it's in because of the abuse the first world countries inflicted on it over the years.

 

[General Zod]

Red
I think you said a lot of good stuff I am natuarally cynical of these celeb/pop stars who live in these muti-million dollar homes getting caught up in some cause Yes a lot of money is raised for those causes But is it really doing any good?

It would be nice if the world would rise up and send those dictators to hell But I doubt if that will happen The world can't even get together ang aggree to what to do on terrorism

I did sign the petitions Will it do any good? Who knows

 

[BOFH666]

Africa has other massive problems wich Bono and Geldoff for some reason keep well clear of. Desease is a massive problem, Civil war and lastly, undemocratic tin pot murderous governmental regimes.

These are the big problems, and chucking my tax or Bonos millions at it will not help any. We have been pissing money all over Africa for decades, its done virtually nothing to help. Most of it is diverted in to arms purchasing, bribes, palaces, numbered swiss bank accounts and so on.

Why does Bob Geldoff has nothing to say about the people in charge of Africa? why has he no swear words to unleash on the nut case dictators and their corrupt beaurocracies? Why has he nothing to say about President Mugabe who is systematically trashing a once thriving economy, mudering and torturing his apponents and starving large sections of is populace to death.

What a lot of these countries need is, well, sorry to say it guys.....Regime change, but we all know how unpopular that can be when it is brought about by external influences.

The simple answer to "Why is Bob Geldof not saying anything about the people in charge of Africa" is... because he doesn't need to. The need to address the corruption in government is already well known and most, if not all, of the aid packages (including debt write off) being discussed at the G8 summit are dependent on reform within those governments. No reform, no money. For that matter I believe the proposal for debt relief is dependent on the money saved by African nations going on education and health.

Regime change by external influence is fine... provided there is a driving force to improve conditions from within the country being changed. Ultimately that's the ONLY way that 'regime change' works otherwise you just end up with either another regime that needs changing or an external government running the country or a total clusterfark. In the case of Africa it is most likely to be those currently in their mid 30's, those that lived through the famines and atrocities, that will be the catalyst for change. The intended goal of the Live 8 events is, in effect, to give them enough of a lifeline to realise that potential. Debt cancellation and aid will help with that but, ultimatley, it's fair and free trade that will be the real key to building something better for the people of Africa.

Oh, and on the subject of disease which Bono and Geldof "keep well clear of"... Bono runs an active campaign against AIDS and HIV and has been an acitve campaigner in raising awareness on death via treatable disease in Africa. From a Bill O'Reilly show:

It's an emergency. 69,000 Africans dying every day of a preventable, treatable disease

In fact, read the whole article, it'll answer a LOT of your questions. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131198,00.html

Uh, though try and ignore good ol' Bill's attempt to spin what's being said (you might need a barf bag).

One last thought on this: poverty is a potentially major contributor to terrorist recruitment. Terrorism in Africa is thought to be on the rise, with the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group being suspected of conducting the Madrid train bombings. An environment that gives rise to a large number of people with 'nothing to live for' is far more likely to produce individuals willing to trade that life for cash paid to their families.

 

[Haltickling]

Just a different angle...

While I agree with most of your views on those concert, I feel that we should dig a little deeper for the reasons of the Third World debts:

Most of the debtor countries were colonies originally, and they had to pay dearly for that: All the colonial powers exploited their colonies to the max, robbing them of most of their natural resources, damaged their environment permanently with their monocultures, took away the (genetically) healthiest part of the population as slaves, denied them their own cultures and languages, and never gave them a chance to develop neither economically nor socially.

It's a myth that the foreign loans are granted by governments. Usually they are granted by banks, for a suitable interest rate, of course. The governments normally only give the necessary guarantees, often in exchange for contracts: the money gets spent to buy goods from the creditor nation, or the creditors get special trade privileges. In fact, it's got nothing to do with humanitarian reasons in most cases. Quite often, the Thrid World leaders bought weapons with the borrowed money, or they just split it up among their clan. Only very recently, the creditor nations and the World Bank started to cross-check the actual use of the money.

And let's be honest: Which bank would give a loan to a thoroughly impoverished person? That's only feasible with state guarantees, to the bank's profit. Meanwhile, the debtor nations have to borrow more money just to cover part of the interests. They're more than broke, but they can't get protection of a Chapter 9 or whatever law. Is it really a miracle that some of them just stopped all payments?

IMO, it's time to cancel those old debts, if only as a damage payment for the times of limitless exploitation. It's time for them to start anew, and to thoroughly check the use of future loans. But I doubt that the Live8 concerts will have anything to do with that. If it happens, it's simple economics. It's good business sense to write off loans which won't ever get paid back, otherwise you operate with money you haven't got...

 

[red indian]

Intertesting point Halty.......

.......about the relationship between banks, government and loans to Africa, you may well be right, but you do not make me feel any better about the situation.

Banks, exsist for one reason only, making money by charging interest. No doubt they were more than happy to arrange these massive loans knowing that they were secured by way of a government guarantee.

So, now that guarantee has been removed, and the banks are left swinging in the wind by their own governments.

How are they going to get the money back? by raising interest rates for every one else. What happens when interest rates go up? the economy suffers and tax revenues fall.

What happens next?

 

[red indian]

Ok BOFH666.......

......you may have a point regarding desease, but what about the other two issues? We should be staging a rock concert to get Mugabe out of office.

I dont accept that the issues I mention are as well known as you say they are, quite the opposite I would suggest. It seems to be very un PC to level any critisism for Africa's problems at the people in charge. It seems to be some kind of unspoken rule that we cant say anything bad about the Africans themselves.

I dont accept that all Africa's problems can be explained away by blaming the ravages of former colonial powers. Colonial rule is a thing of the dim distant past and those former colonial powers have been very busy trying to assuage their guilt by throwing money at their former colonies.

I dont see anything wrong in saying that the Africans have squandered vast amounts of money themselves, they must accept responsibility.


Eight blokes in suits cant be held entirely to blame for Africas problems.

 

[german]

Africa ay? Thats were lion live?

Now seriously what are these people gonna do with money go out and buy a BMW or Merc.

The old parental saying comes to mind........."you want something that bad go out and get a job".

Now Thats not as stupid as it may sound think about it, it makes responsibility. Which is ensential in leadership. As to throwing large sums of money to problems such as this one; what exactly happened. Military moved im and caused more problem to begin with and stole the $$$$$$ (im talkin abouy milita groups) Then the ethnic cleaning process started to whom the money belongs to. This seems to me will make history repeat itself.

Now back to my statement "you want something that bad................."
and the repsonsibility that it creates will do wonders for Africa, to fix something on a global stage the domestic stage was be strong and be able to handle it; to do that stable governments should be appointed by diplomatic measures and not by military means. Doing this eliminates half the problem and therefore issues. After a strong government is formed then a strong econmic establishment should be placed say fruits, something unique to that area.

The idea of money and wealth by previous african has left them with nothing as they have sold their resources; mining and coffee to name just a few. For something to make a significant change then these organisations should be pressured to sell back to them at a fair price so that these countries can rebuild themselves.

Thats what these celebs should be doing rather then force feeding these countries money that they cant do nothing with. Education on all fronts, business enterpirse, trades should be given to these people.

Well there my rant anyway

 

[JoBelle]

I've been to the One website, and the premise is good. The problem I have with it is the same one I have with celebs promoting denture cream or sports cars....it's about self promotion as much as it is the cause.

I also think that I personally live a life a bit out of order with a lot of other people it seems. I'm very "into" volunteering for the obvious reasons of wanting to help other people...but also because it's something that I feel good about-self fulfillment in a less greedy way maybe? When I adopted my 11 year old son from foster care, I got an education unlike any I'd ever known and I got further involved. I'm a bit too wrapped up in my own personal "crusade" to be worried about Brad Pitt and Samual Jackson's latest cause. Everyone I know is cause oriented....it's just the lifestyle I live....so maybe I'm a little goofy with my tunnel vision about world affairs and the needs of the people in every corner of the planet. I'll never apologize for it though. There are people all over the world who need help....and I'm helping the ones I can.

Don't come down so hard on people just because they don't want to
"save Africa" *doubtful that's the case* or because "people are dying." *I bet they know*

I don't need celebrtities to draw my attention to problems...but maybe some people do??

Not sure if I made a point...but I was trying.

 

[Oddjob0226]

They rant on and on about "the government" writing off debt, but what is that exactly? its tax, tax collected from the great british public and from all the other G8 populaces.

My money is on the poor old tax payer.

These flashy pop-star phonies are taxpayers, too. And I know they are in a higher bracket than I am! Willie Nelson knows learned ALL about taxable income. And they DO write, checks. They don't always do it with cameras around.

Perhaps we should keep listening only to the millionaires who are in our legislative bodies and the pulpits? U2 got where they are by playing dive bars and cheap motel lounges for 5-10 years - something the Bush, Kennedy and Oral Roberts family didn't go through - in pursuit of what they loved, and attempting to make a living while doing what they love . Rock on, celebrities! If I grow up, I wanna be Mick Jagger, not Butros-Butros Gali!! Golly!