Man gets 20 years for baby's death...

[Wicker Man]

Well kis I guess just you and I live in the REAL WORLD where ya know...INNOCENT PEOPLE GET HURT OR EVEN KILLED!!! Oh man im making enemies I gotta stop now and hold my peace but I couldnt pass my last 2 posts up! 😛

 

[Iggy pop]

OK let me change this up a little bit. Let's say I married an alcholic women and we had a kid together. One afternoon after picking up our daughter from school, she decides to stop at a local bar. She cracks the window just enough, in her own deluded mind, for the girl to get some air. She tells herself that she is only going to have one drink and she will be out soon. One drink turns in to six or seven. When she comes out, our daughter has succumbed to heat exhaustion. Horrified, she dials 911 before fainting. Whe the cops arrives they have revive this woman who starts screaming how this was not suppose to happen.

At the trial, instead of someone laughing that they only got twenty years, we have a woman crying and saying how sorry she is, and that she never meant to do this to her baby girl. What is my reaction then? Honestly, I don't know. I couldn't tell you until I was in that situation. I'd imagine I would feel immense guilt and blame myself for leaving my daughter in the possesion of this alcoholic. Cursing myself that I did not get divorse and custody of my child. I would hope that I would not be calling for blood, but like I said I don't know.

 

[Wicker Man]

Iggy Pop...She dies. Its as simple as that, let her have an alcohol filled drink of her choice before she enters the gas chamber if you want to be merciful. Do you honestly believe some ridiculous crying and fainting would make a person of conscience change his or her mind? Thats a damn laugh! If the courts didnt kill her id see to it that she had an "accident" one night after drinking if this sick piece of shit was my wife. What kind of nonsense is this? A crack in the window and some inane antics should allow you to murder? Good Lord no wonder nobody takes this country seriously anymore!

 

[Iggy pop]

I guess you are more confident that I on how you would react in that situation.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

once again, this was not murder. There was no intent to kill the child. How would i react to it? Frankly i'd be devistated, not just because i lost a daughter, but because the woman i loved would be lost to me too. I wouldn't want her dead though. I might say it, and feel it at times, but i don't think i would seriously want it. However, even if i did, i certainly would not act on it. More then likely, any woman i married would be a woman of conciouse and would more then likely be destroyed by it as well.

And Kiss, please do not think no emotions are involved. There would be plenty of anger and pain. I think the main difference though is we're feeling other emotions as well. Pity, empathy, and finally mercy. Frankly, i don't see those emotions as a bad thing, and never have.

 

[BigJim]

I HATE to use this argument but you guys asked for it...hey, what if this was your kid who suffocated so this "gentleman" could catch the daily double? Would you be begging on your knees for his life to be spared? HED BE LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF AT YOU FOR 2O YEARS AND THE REST OF HIS LIFE AFTER THAT BELIEVE ME!!!!! Now ill save my emotions for the Yankees/Red Sox opener next sunday which the Sox winning the 2004 World Series is an almost as bad crime. 😡

I've already answered this question for Kis, and I expect most people's answers would be the same. I'd start off being shattered and a wreck and then I'd progress to steaming at the ears. Personal involvement clouds the situation and personal judgement. It's why Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold WM, because she's fair, impartial and un-emotive. Someone with a personal interest in a particular case (say a judge who's sister had lost her baby because of the negligent father) would be reclused from the case. Same for a solicitor, same for a copper, same for anything involved in the legal or justice system.

Good luck with the game btw. 😉

 

[BigJim]

OK let me change this up a little bit. Let's say I married an alcholic women and we had a kid together. One afternoon after picking up our daughter from school, she decides to stop at a local bar. She cracks the window just enough, in her own deluded mind, for the girl to get some air. She tells herself that she is only going to have one drink and she will be out soon. One drink turns in to six or seven. When she comes out, our daughter has succumbed to heat exhaustion. Horrified, she dials 911 before fainting. Whe the cops arrives they have revive this woman who starts screaming how this was not suppose to happen.

At the trial, instead of someone laughing that they only got twenty years, we have a woman crying and saying how sorry she is, and that she never meant to do this to her baby girl. What is my reaction then? Honestly, I don't know. I couldn't tell you until I was in that situation. I'd imagine I would feel immense guilt and blame myself for leaving my daughter in the possesion of this alcoholic. Cursing myself that I did not get divorse and custody of my child. I would hope that I would not be calling for blood, but like I said I don't know.

A good post IP, but wasted here being rooted as it is in common sense.

 

[BigJim]

Iggy Pop...She dies. Its as simple as that, let her have an alcohol filled drink of her choice before she enters the gas chamber if you want to be merciful. Do you honestly believe some ridiculous crying and fainting would make a person of conscience change his or her mind? Thats a damn laugh! If the courts didnt kill her id see to it that she had an "accident" one night after drinking if this sick piece of shit was my wife. What kind of nonsense is this? A crack in the window and some inane antics should allow you to murder? Good Lord no wonder nobody takes this country seriously anymore!

WM, you have totally devolved from logic in this post. The continued use of the word "murder" and the inability to see that this is not "simple" and never could be, and you have a total blindness in not acknowledging that just because someone doesn't demand death sentences left right and centre they may just be taking their country seriously. They must just be less homicidal than you. Reading some of your posts it seems you're all too willing to become exactly the same thing you hate whilst claiming to be totally different and I actually gain respect and trust for George W. Bush and I NEVER thought I'd say that! Even he, someone I consider an extremely unjust and inconsiderate person, is more restrained than you.

This world is full of imperfections and bad people, but I'd tremble at the thought of living in the one you'd replace it with. Having said that, this is just my opinion, I'm not trying to change yours by force.😀

On a last note though, believe it or not people who have done something illegal or wicked can indeed show consience. They are rarely the monsters the extreme-minded make them out to be. Very often it's one small thing they've done wrong that has snowballed. You are far too judgemental a person in my opinion. Even the Texas bench would shuddder at having you as a judge.

 

[BigJim]

Besides, my post was the one attacked, and I have the absolute right to defend my words.

I didn't start the name calling and accusations so don't start in on me!

You absoloutely have the right to your opinions and to defend them. I think you'll find though that I attacked your opinion and the process you arrived at it by as per the GR stickies, and then you attacked my character because you believed me to be a feelingless monster who reduced the status of the poor child to that of an incidental and inanimate object. Considering I would inflict a heavier sentence than most courts would if I had been the judge presiding on the case, it would be fair for me to or TM to accuse you of being unreasonable in the extreme.

I can't be sure, seeing as how this took place in America and I'm British, but I'm fairly sure than any judge in the land would instruct a jury in a sensitive case in the manner that I followed with my own reasoning. I don't think I'm being an unreasonable person in the way I've thought things out or presented my argument. You are of course free to disagree with me and I'd even encourage that.

 

[Wicker Man]

Sorry Jim, I like you and youre a good guy but youre the one not making sense. You said that you would beat this guy within and inch of his life but why if hes sick? Shouldnt you just see to it that he recieves the proper psychiatric attention? Then you flip flop to wanting to beat this guy up severely. What happened if you beat this guy up and you lost control which you also said might happen and you kill him. In your mind youd be killing someone who barely deserves a felony. Youre name is BIG Jim so it sounds like youre a man of considerable size and strength and its not as hard as you think to beat someone to death especially if you lose control. As to your comment about me being too brutal to even be a judge in a lynching section of Texas...I say Thank You! Its about time someone gets a pair of testicles and deals with these jerkoffs. Im not becoming like these criminals at all because I would never kill a child. If it was up to me id pass laws making it terrifying to harm a child. Chidren are an easy target and must be protected at all costs. So I guess I am brutal when it comes to child murderers...the children deserve it! 😀

 

[BigJim]

Sorry Jim, I like you and youre a good guy but youre the one not making sense. You said that you would beat this guy within and inch of his life but why if hes sick? Shouldnt you just see to it that he recieves the proper psychiatric attention? Then you flip flop to wanting to beat this guy up severely. What happened if you beat this guy up and you lost control which you also said might happen and you kill him. In your mind youd be killing someone who barely deserves a felony. Youre name is BIG Jim so it sounds like youre a man of considerable size and strength and its not as hard as you think to beat someone to death especially if you lose control. As to your comment about me being too brutal to even be a judge in a lynching section of Texas...I say Thank You! Its about time someone gets a pair of testicles and deals with these jerkoffs. Im not becoming like these criminals at all because I would never kill a child. If it was up to me id pass laws making it terrifying to harm a child. Chidren are an easy target and must be protected at all costs. So I guess I am brutal when it comes to child murderers...the children deserve it! 😀

Ah no, I described what my initial emotional reaction would be. I wasn't describing what was right and good or what I would actually do. Most extreme emotional reactions are let loose secure in the knowledge that you're somewhere where they won't do much damage. I'm professional enough to know I'd have to leave the arena if it was happening to someone personal to me. Again: I wouldn't actually DO those things, I would FEEL LIKE doing them. I stated so because of the absurd accusation of Kis's that I virtually have anti-freeze for blood.

I agree with a lot of what you say about making people fear the consequences of becomming criminals and right across the board too, not just in a situation as serious as this. I just don't extend that action to taking life. I believe that is an evil act under any circumstances, but especially so when it's done in cold blood against a helpless person. That even includes people who have deliberately taken life themselves. I choose not to stoop to their level, because using their weapons against them doesn't change my society for the better, it tears down one "Dark Lord" and replaces him with another. Big deal, we've got nowhere. I refuse to become what I'm fighting, especially when the death penalty doesn't decrease crime rates but raises them, is more expensive than imprisonment, discriminates against minorities and is a fundementally evil act in itself. Extending it from genuine murderers to someone who made a mistake because he was a selfish bastard is bordering on Darth Vader behaviour in my opinion, never mind it's legitimacy in the first place.

I'm not merciful or a leftie mate, I'm not even a liberal. I just restrain my actions (in a metaphorical sense) because I look at the bigger picture.🙂

Lestanan úye yúyo mórea caia ar aina indóme ve míne!

 

[Wicker Man]

Well Jim like I said youre a good guy so well have to agree to disagree. One last question because no offense to anyone but I feel like this thread is getting tired, its time to move on. Now my question...since Judas Priest arent touring the US on the Angel of Retribution tour can you buy 2 tickets one for me and you for a Priest show and let me stay at youre house? I promise not to lynch any english criminals or clog up the toilet! 🙂

 

[Newcastle Uni]

I have not read all of the messages pertaining to this thread, but I am appalled by what I have read. I would normally never make the mistake of commenting on a case about which I do not know the particulars, however, from from I gather somebody was jailed for 20 years for the ACCIDENTAL death of his child. He has been jailed for 20 years. I think this is entirely disproportionate.
The man will suffer the rest of his life knowing that his actions lead to this death of a chld and the authorities should be lenient. I personally think jail time is not appropriate under these circumstances and 20 years is a cruel and unusual punishment. Do you have any idea how long 20 years is????? It is almost my entire lifespan to date!!!! This man should be given NO jail sentence and NO punishment, except if there are other circumstances about which I am not aware.
If anyone can tell me the good that will come from lockng this man up I would love to hear it. You Americans are all too keen to want to BLAME SOMEONE. I hate your compensation culture that is now a part of British life. I hate the fact that you constantly refer to GOOD GUYS and BAD GUYS. I believe in a compassionate society. A society of FREE UNIVERISTY EDUCATION, of FREE HEALTH CARE and with consideration for all members. Where everyone is equal and everyone protected by FAIR justice. How can anyone justify locking a man up for 20 years because a child happened to die. The death is just as much a failing of society as of the man. If he was properly educated the child would not have died. For fucks sake, his chld died. Have a heart and don;t lock him up. It was an honest mistake. If there are circumstances that I am not aware of then i retract what i said. But there wold have to be some pretty exceptional circumstances to warrant that sentence.

 

[Iggy pop]

I would never insist that this guy get off scott free. This was not a simple accident. It is gross negligence. He should go to prison.

For those that say logic has no place here, I have to disagree. Logic is what are laws are based on. Logic and Rationality is what justice system is based on. Emotion is natural, but it should not rule in the Court system. Emotion rules lynch mobs.

 

[Newcastle Uni]

I am appalled by the level of compassion of you Americans. You still have state sanctioned executions, you carry guns and consequently have so many murders every year, everything i see points to an immature society of morons. You don't seem to have any real justice. You charge people to be educated at university. You don't have free health care. I wonder what welfare state you have at all. Your justice is plainly absurd. How is it that someone can be jailed for life for some mino misdemeanor just ecause it happens to be his/her 'third strike'? Your politicians are ridiculous and your elections for president a joke. I point to George Bush and Arnold Schrwarzenegger. Your politicians manipulate you so much and you constantly refer to 'Good Guys' and Bad Guys' as if anything more complex than this would cause your minds to explode. You have schools that teach creationism and so many religious fundametalists and other intolerant people that I would be throughly ashamed.
My society has mabny faultras also. But at least it seems to have the right ideas and ideals - even if they are yet to be fully realised. Maybe America should stop executing people and introduce a decent welfare state and join the rest of the civilised world. Perhaps you should take some responsibility for the rest of the world and adopt the Kyota protocol, treat prisoners of War with respect, charge or release those held at Guantanoma bay and generallly stop behaving like idiots.

 

[Iggy pop]

I am appalled by the level of compassion of you Americans. You still have state sanctioned executions, you carry guns and consequently have so many murders every year, everything i see points to an immature society of morons. You don't seem to have any real justice. You charge people to be educated at university. You don't have free health care. I wonder what welfare state you have at all. Your justice is plainly absurd. How is it that someone can be jailed for life for some mino misdemeanor just ecause it happens to be his/her 'third strike'? Your politicians are ridiculous and your elections for president a joke. I point to George Bush and Arnold Schrwarzenegger. Your politicians manipulate you so much and you constantly refer to 'Good Guys' and Bad Guys' as if anything more complex than this would cause your minds to explode. You have schools that teach creationism and so many religious fundametalists and other intolerant people that I would be throughly ashamed.
My society has mabny faultras also. But at least it seems to have the right ideas and ideals - even if they are yet to be fully realised. Maybe America should stop executing people and introduce a decent welfare state and join the rest of the civilised world. Perhaps you should take some responsibility for the rest of the world and adopt the Kyota protocol, treat prisoners of War with respect, charge or release those held at Guantanoma bay and generallly stop behaving like idiots.

Most of what is stated here is off topic.

 

[Newcastle Uni]

What has happened to the America that fought Hitler, the America that temporarily got rid of the the death penalty and the America that cared about the stability of the rest of the World.

I love America, but some aspects of your society deeply worry and concern me.

 

[Myriads]

Keep the personal crap out of the thread.

If you want to insult each other, and each others positions do it in e-mail ir PM's.

Debate the TOPICS not the people. It's not that hard. Most of the posters here manage it.

Get personal in this thread again, and get a ban from this subforum.

Myriads

 

[kis123]

Most of what is stated here is off topic.

Now, this statement is something I can thoroughly agree with!

 

[Moses25]

Everybody needs to take a step back and go to my "Funny Car Commercial" thread.

hehe...

Cheers.😀

 

[Wicker Man]

Nah! Its my fault, I admit it. I let my personal bias towards children pepper my good judgement. From now on im sticking to less emotional topics than ones about children dying. I freely admit I cant handle it and will end up getting myself banned and taking someone else with me. So good luck with this thread folks...the children deserve no less!

 

[natural tickler]

Damn, is it hot in here, or is it just me???😛

One note guys: if you find yourself getting heated and emotional as you type might I suggest taking a little break before returning. That way, your emotions will not interfere without the benefit of intellect. Secondly, name calling is not helping, guys. Some of you are close to feeling Myriads' wrath, so I would suggest a timeout. it is not that serious. Let's debate hard, but learn to agree to disagree. Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make them wrong.

Here is an ice cube for everyone, just so you can chill out

 

[Wicker Man]

All do respect to Myriads and sympathy for his having to police these emotional posts but out of 135 posts 134 have been respectful, friendly and courteous and they for the most part have been responded to in kind. I would hate to think that because of one or two overemotional posts I am on the directors "shit list." I apologized publicly and privately to the parties I offended and I will not behave like this again as said in my previous post. No reason to begin "keeping an eye" on me at all. 😀

 

[Newcastle Uni]

I respect everyone's opinions here. I'm sure that if i ever have children i'll view things differently. The death of a child is something i've never experienced or even had to contemplate for that matter. I love children. I suppose I have a problem with authority and oppose it at every opportunity.
As for my off-topic rant about American society. Well I think we all know that America is one of the greatest countries in the world to live in (perhaps the greatest?). But just imagine how close to Utopia america would become if it banned ownership of guns (farmers and some other groups exempt), stopped executing people and implemented some more liberal policies.

 

[BigJim]

I have not read all of the messages pertaining to this thread, but I am appalled by what I have read. I would normally never make the mistake of commenting on a case about which I do not know the particulars, however, from from I gather somebody was jailed for 20 years for the ACCIDENTAL death of his child. He has been jailed for 20 years. I think this is entirely disproportionate.
The man will suffer the rest of his life knowing that his actions lead to this death of a chld and the authorities should be lenient. I personally think jail time is not appropriate under these circumstances and 20 years is a cruel and unusual punishment. Do you have any idea how long 20 years is????? It is almost my entire lifespan to date!!!! This man should be given NO jail sentence and NO punishment, except if there are other circumstances about which I am not aware.
If anyone can tell me the good that will come from lockng this man up I would love to hear it. You Americans are all too keen to want to BLAME SOMEONE. I hate your compensation culture that is now a part of British life. I hate the fact that you constantly refer to GOOD GUYS and BAD GUYS. I believe in a compassionate society. A society of FREE UNIVERISTY EDUCATION, of FREE HEALTH CARE and with consideration for all members. Where everyone is equal and everyone protected by FAIR justice. How can anyone justify locking a man up for 20 years because a child happened to die. The death is just as much a failing of society as of the man. If he was properly educated the child would not have died. For fucks sake, his chld died. Have a heart and don;t lock him up. It was an honest mistake. If there are circumstances that I am not aware of then i retract what i said. But there wold have to be some pretty exceptional circumstances to warrant that sentence.

While I agree with a large portion of your post, I wouldn't let this man go. A case of negligence serious enough to cause the death of your own child whilst it is specifically in your care is, in my opinion, serious enough to warrant a serious custodial sentence. On reflection I probably wouldn't have gone as far as the judge did (and that is the first time I have EVER said that in my life - and probably the last time too!!!) but I would still have imprisoned him and not for a short time. While I also agree that society reflects it's best and worst points in individual people, there also comes a time where personal responsibility has to kick in. Even a caveman would've done a better job than this person.