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Max Says Goodbye To TMF

Armpit, I agree with what you said, and while Dave points out that Krokus signature wasnt the "point" of the thread, I think it is still an important issue, as Max mentioned the image in Krokus signature to be a major contributing factor to why he left, whether that was the "main point" of the decision or thread or not, it was clearly mentioned by Max as a major contributing factor, and I think this is why many are putting a microscope to this issue.

Mitch
 
The sig was a samll part of things. Everyone else made it a big deal. I'm pretty sure Max had a lot more reasons than two for considering leaving the community. This thread is getting off track by focusing on a side-comment. Find another area for it.

The arguements made for or against it no longer have anything to do with the original point of the thread. It was used as an example. If you wish to continue the benefits of swastikas and such, start another thread.

This is getting off topic. Max's original reasoning surrounded the inclusion of minor content, and we all know that. There were other topics touched upon, but this one is overshadowing any and all of Max's original point.

Please find another area for extolling the virtues of expressing oneself with hateful images, whatever the "reason".
 
That whole point is moot as Krokus was kind enough to remove a sig that many found offensive....

The main topic of the thread is Max's decision to leave and that should be the discussion point if any....

All this other stuff is the reason I chose to reply to Max privately as there is too much junk to wade through to discuss the main topic intelligently...

What happened in chat or why someone posted something has no real bearing on this....


Ray
 
Max, I just want you to know that you are my hero. When I first got into tickling all I saw was feet feet feet. I began to get discouraged. Then I found a story of yours called Kittletown. I ate all of the chapters up. I had found someone like me, someone who loved armpits as much as I did. I read all of your stories and anxiously awaited posts by you in the forum here. I was into tickling long before TMF when I myself was a minor, and I broke a few rules here and there..specifically 18+ only rules, mostly just to read your material. I have admired you and your work since I first witnissed it all those years ago, and I still do. You are my inspiration and my role model. When you leave the TMF, a piece of me will leave to. It is a dark day for us when Max leaves. I hope that we can keep in touch even though you are leaving. I respect your decision and won't beg you to stay, but know that I am and always will be your biggest fan. Sincerely, Mike
 
Okay, Dave, point taken, end of discussion on the swastika issue. All I will say is that Iam sorry to see any member leave for any reason, and I hope Max will reconsider. I will not mention the swastika issue again, subject closed from this moment on.

Mitch

I posted this just as you were leaving your post. Nice post, Tidas, well put.
 
Tidas, nice post.

"The main topic of the thread is Max's decision to leave and that should be the discussion point if any..."

I agree... To discuss Max decision to leave you have to address the points on why he said he was leaving(Krokus sig and the underage thing was two things Max mentioned himself).... But if you feel that it should not be discussed then it no longer will from me.
 
Thanks armpit_licker....but I was just telling the truth. hey, btw...do you have yahoo or AIM? on yahoo i'm armpitslover03 and on AIM i'm Macaddict222...we should chat sometime
 
That was very well-put, Myriads.


Myriads said:

Here is a fact: There are community members who can't keep thier fantasies off kids. This can have serious real world results for us here when these folks start crossing lines.


Just to sort of put a face on this particular point, I present the repulsive case of one Joseph Aurora. Joseph, aka "joesunrise," was arrested in Keene, NH for soliciting a 14 year old boy (who was, in fact, an undercover cop) for what he described as a "capture, strip, tickle torture session." Joseph's e-mail communications to the undercover officer posing as a 14 year old included such gems as:

"I really like young guys for tickling...that sounds a little "sick" but as long as both people are willing, I see nothing wrong with it"

And:

"You're 14, just enjoy it as an adventure - a kind of really cool little amusement park you're going to - and my bed is the scariest ride there!"

When he was arrested, Joseph Aurora was waiting for his 14 year old victim with a video camera, rolls of duct tape, two feathers... and a bottle of Viagra.

Joseph Aurora and others like him are, in my opinion, the most important reason to have a zero-tolerance rule regarding minors on this site. Certainly, someone might submit an image or story involving minors with innocent intentions... However, innocent intentions or not, that sort of material draws the Joseph Auroras of the world like moths to a flame. I think the last thing ANYONE wants is to see the TMF turn into a haven for pedophiles.




Articles about Joseph Aurora:
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1270423
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1272047

An article about the officer who arrested Joeseph Aurora. (scroll down approximately 2/3rds of the article to get to the portion that pertains directly to Joe)
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2003/11/23/hot_pursuit/
 
Armpit_licker said:
You guy's are missing the point.... It wasn't like Krokus had a swastika sign alone in his sig. It was a movie character people. It was a natzi guy who turned his life around for the better and at the end wasn't a racist anymore.... That is all it was, you people are making it out to be more then it is.

I would like to leave it that way, but the symbol was blatently showing in the sig. That's what stood out, not the movie character. He had to know that was going to draw fire from others and that's exactly what he did. Maybe he should have found another method to express himself.

I didn't agree with his choice, but he's allowed his freedom of speech. It's a tickling forum for Pete's sake-we're already under the radar just being ticklephiles. How much more should he be judged? Besides, I've also overlooked all of the sig pics with female nudity as well. I don't see ANY of the female members with male nudity in their pics, but the guys around here have no problem flashing T & A in my face everytime I read their posts! I personally wish the mods would get rid of the option period. It would save on space that eventually brings the entire TMF crashing down!
 
A couple of thoughts here.

:sowrong: (These are my personal thoughts as an individual and not as a mod.)

As to images,etc. that people take offense to...

Yes. We have a right to freedom of speech/expression. However, we also have a responsibility to use that right wisely for the good of all. That means (in part) that we should try to avoid doing things that we KNOW others will find offensive...not because it actually is, but because of the potential for it. (i.e. - Krokus could have avoided the uproar about his image by simply including an appropriate quote from the movie or a statement of his own to show the change of heart that took place, since it would have negated the offense taken by most.) Like it or not, we are responsible to our fellow human beings.

An extreme example here...

If suicide were to be legalized, you would have the right to kill yourself. BUT, in doing so, you would not have the right to take other people or property with you. So, something like blowing yourself up would not be acceptable. Again, it's a matter of our responsibility to other people. And, like it or not, we DO have a responsibility to those around us.

As to images of minors....

Even if this were not a legal issue and a matter of the forum survival, I would have a problem with this. Is innocent tickling between minors (or minors with adults) wrong? No. I don't believe it is.

Is posting images of minors on a sexually oriented site wrong. Here, we enter a gray area. If it were legal for minors to be here, I would have no problem with them coming and sharing images of themselves. It's their choice and they (hopefully) would know the risks the same as everyone else here.

BUT, I beleive that posting images of minors that were never intended to be posted in this type of venue is wrong. Why? Because they were not intended to be shared with people in this manner. We don't have the right to decide otherwise. I don't question the good intent of Andy or others who've done mega posts of mainstream material. They simply wanted to share some fun material in an innocent fashion. But, it does create the problems that Myr pointed out.

Let me ask something to those here who are responsible for minors in your life. If you had a nice image of that minor that you decided to put on a web site, would you want that image posted at a porn site where people could track them down and tell them how sexy they look and/or proposition them? I know I wouldn't. Though most of what's posted here at the TMF is less than porn, most outsiders would consider us to be a porn site. I can easily understand being asked not to do so.

For those who will say "Then protect your site from people saving images.", I say this. Tell me how to effectively do that. I collect all sorts of images from the web. For those sites that are protected from being able to right click to save images, all you have to do is save the entire page in html form and then pull the images from the page files. It's simple, which makes the idea of protecting images a laughable one. Not everyone has access to space that can be password protected in order to keep others out. Most people wouldn't even think it necessary to do so. Does that give us the right to do as we like with their images?

This is where our responsibility to others comes in. If it's not meant to be here, it shouldn't be here without their permission. If you wouldn't be comfortable asking for that permission, then it shouldn't be posted.

As for Max leaving...

It's your decision to make, Max. I respect that. So, I won't try to talk you out of it. If you decide to leave over this, then I wish you well in whatever you do. But, I do hope that you'll think about it and consider sticking around.

Ann
 
I am so confused and conflicted…

For those of you who do not know me, I am the “Andy” referred to in Max’s post.

I find myself somehow in the most uncomfortable position of being aligned, to a certain extent, with the posting of materials that include underage subjects, and I also find myself somehow being a catalyst to Max abandoning this forum.

I am really not sure what to say here, but I feel I have to weigh in on this thread. One thing seems clear to me, though, namely, that something is amiss in this forum and needs fixing. Rules of this forum are not being followed by the moderators here, or are being applied in an arbitrary manner.

I’m not going to go into the detail here (if you want further detail on this see, http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=53042 ), but I posted a slew of mainstream pics, and 20 of them were summarily deleted, and, after complaining about it, I caught hell for my post from a moderator. After further review of the rules on “Posts involving Minors” in the “TMF Rules And Announcements”, and the rules applicable to the Images forum, I am not sure I did anything wrong in the first place, or that the rules are ambiguous at best.

Don’t get me wrong – I agree with all that has been said about the evils of posting materials with minors, and I most certainly agree with the moderators that they cannot tolerate a situation where this causes a problem with the actual subject of the photo or their parents. However, the applicable rules need to be clarified or applied in a fair and consistent manner.

Then there is the swastika signature issue (which, contrary to other replies here, is an integral part of this thread as it is what led Max to depart). I personally find it extremely offensive, and was astonished to hear that the mods here did not remove it when people objected. My personal feelings aside, I look again to the “TMF Rules And Announcements”, which state in the “Sig image size & Content” rule: “we will remove signiture (sic) images and quotes that we see as flame bait, or insulting to individuals and groups.” I would like someone to explain to me how a freakin’ swastika is not “insulting to individuals and groups.” And, save me the First Amendment arguments. First of all, the First Amendment does not apply to a private group, and secondly, if you were adhering to the First Amendment and other laws, I am sure that there would be a lot of other items that should not be deleted (such as the mainstream pics from my post).

It seems to me that a big part of the problem here is that the rules of this forum are being applied in an arbitrary manner.

Last, and certainly by no means least, I am disturbed by the fact that my dear friend, Max, who I have the ultimate respect for, has gotten so upset about things here that he has decided to pull up stakes. Sorry it came to this, Bro, and sorry that I had a part in it. Your presence here as a founder and major contributor will certainly be missed.

Another friend asked me offline not to let all of this sour me on this forum. It is hard not to prevent that reaction.
 
Last edited:
This sucks...

Max,
When I was younger (undeage to be specific) I read Kittletown... my first exposure to tickling online. It brought me into a complete new world. I then found Jack's male tickling rack, which moved me further and further into this twisted world we live in. Thank you for everything you have done for the forum, its members, and the entire community. I may be one of the 1,000 idiots left, but I wont forget you. Good luck in whatever you choose to do next.
Allison:dropatear
 
This issue

This issue is an age old legal issue. It has come up in the courts hundreds of times. At least it has up here in Canada, I assume it's just as common in the states, uk, et cetera.

It's a matter of freedom of speech vs obscenity. Fortunately, it's been decided for us.

Common perspective, is that restricting the depiction or involvment of minors in a sexual context is a justifiable infringement on freedom of expression.

Whether or not we agree is completely irrelevent. We cannot afford to make the forum a political statement, and rebel against what we feel is an unjust standard. We have to abide by the laws and regulations established by the system we live in. Therefore, it is completely logical, however unfortunate in some cases, that we adopt a zero-tolerance policy regarding minors.

As for offensive material in signatures like a swastika, (yes, I know it was a depiction of a fictional character with a good moral) if it was hypothetically a statement of affiliation, that's a much shadier area. There exists no such uniform standard of whether or not banning symbols like that is a justifiable infringement of freedom of expression. That's when Myr gets to make his own judgement call. Regardless, if something offends you, it makes little sense to claim that you should be allowed to do something that might offend somebody else. Two wrongs still don't make a right, and in this case, one of the wrongs MUST have zero-tolerance.

So basically, I sympathize with Max, but agree with Myriads. He has to set up regulations that reflect the legal infrastructure we fit in, and that's that.

I realize I've said nothing that hasn't been said before, but hey, I like to feel special.
 
I am quite new, but have read Max's stories and really enjoyed then. I don't know the signature of which you are talking about so I can not adress that. I haven't been around long enough to see much, but what I have noticed is everyone is strict and to the point.

This is a tickling forum, tickling makes you laugh, yet everyone here is strict beyond repair. I'm sorry if I offended anybody but I just had to post my thoughts somewhere, and this seems like an appropriate thread to do it. I am going to stay around.

Remember Max, where there's 10 idiots theres at least 5 times more nice and good people. Be well Max.
 
I've got the upmost respect for Myriads, one of the few mods I really ever respected. All your points were solid and at the same time I feel for Max's frustration. I hear what Max is saying and I definately know Andy never meant to start any of this, they are both very good people and my peers from the beginning of my tickling community days.

I will not add much more since there's a lot of junk to wade through.
You belong here Max and I hope you don't sway away Andy, there are idiots in these forum as every forum in existance has them but there are far more new people that have never posted that look up to vets like you guys.. you do make a difference to our community even though most of us are too stupid to show appreciation but rather complain.

Nuff said.

DK
 
The last thing we as a community need to do is to start even more holy wars among ourselves.

Is splintering off in the name of self-righteousness REALLY inevitable within every society? What? It is?

Dammit.

If we're standing up to be counted, put me behind Myriads. Preservation of the forum with a minimum of compromises is all-important, as this is Information Central for so many of the tickle-curious.

As for Edward Norton and the swastika, American History X is so mainstream that I would have thought everyone here would have recognized the actor, and probably the movie. And a PM to Krokus of "what's up with that, dude?" is probably a better course of action than silent steaming.

Really, who needs silent steaming?

WallStreet's suggestion to get rid of all the non-TK outlets in this forum gave me pause. I thought about it, and ultimately decided that those forums keep the TK-heavy stuff good and straight-up. Because of those outlets, our Tickling Discussion and Post Stories are all on-topic.

As that lovable Muslim says, "If you want to sing out, sing out. If you want to be free, be free."

Let's just stay legally sound.

Max, perhaps you don't need to take off for good. You're too much a pillar in the community, and people look up to you. You know that. Maybe a short vacation is all you need.

There's a million ways to be, you know that there are.

All my best,

Yusef Boomtown
 
If I had known that that image was going to cause all of this, I would have never put it up. I apologize to all who were offended, as it wasn't my intention to offend anyone. I get a little crazy sometimes when Im on medication and drinking, so you will have to forgive me. i get these crazy ideas...and im not sure how to express them. Max, I hope you reconsider. Once again I am sorry to all whom I offended, and I also apologize for the way I was acting. I'll be going now.


I'd also like to say that the TMF really has changed in the last year or so...it just isn't like it once was...oh well.
 
A sad day. Max, Andy, I had a mainstream pic post edited not too long ago, for "Possible minor content," even tho I took the time to confirm the indivduals in the pics were at a college party, and 1 pic of the day after said party. Yeah, I was a little annoyed at first, but the Mod in question had no way of knowing the details of the deleted pics. She was doing her job, and I didn't kick up a dust about it. It did make me aware of the lengths the Mods must go to BE Mods...Checking EVERY mainstream post alone would be a monumental task, then add all the stories that must be checked, personals, links, etc...My few unseen pics are not important enough to leave the TMF for. I broke no rules, but there was enough doubt to warrant removal. I just don't like the "Edited for possible minor content" thing following me around. I understand it, but I don't like it.

There's alot (and I mean a LOT) of folks who appreciate the mainstream posts you do, Andy. And why not? It's a blessing to be able to see other people (So-called "Straights") enjoying the thing we love most in life, in public, without shame or fear of ridicule, and most important, without fear of legal action. Posting mainstream pics is our form of "Bringing you the news, as it happens!" Every now and again, some one slips up. Or at least, APPEARS to slip up. The Mods are there with their buckets and mops and make it legal.

Some one mentioned the term "Witch-Hunt"...It's VERY real, and it's NOT the Mods who are conducting this hunt. We do get upset with them from time to time, but they are the ones trying to keep the "Witchfinders" looking to ply their trade elsewhere.

At any rate, Andy, I hope you keep posting. Don't let a small disagreement stop you from doing what you love, and what we love. I'm gonna keep posting until they tell me not to. I wish Max would too.

Rxx
 
I'm not bothered by Myriads' position here. I'm also not bothered by symbols, either. I think I'm one of the few people here who knew where Krokus was coming from; it only proved to me that no one in this place ever really gave a shit about anything he ever had to say about any subject, most pointedly the ones that vexed him so.

No, what bothers me is hypocrisy, which seems to blare out at times here. Some people just can't help it. It's a sickness.

Very sad.
 
Sorry to see you go, Max
Dont like sigs? Guess what? You have the option to turn them off in your 'personal settings'
and I was lurking here before 18


 
Limeoutsider said:
Sorry to see you go, Max
Dont like sigs? Guess what? You have the option to turn them off in your 'personal settings'
and I was lurking here before 18



It is just as easy to turn off sigs as it is for the person to use common sense and simple consideration before using them. Most people know what they're doing is hovering the offensive line and choose to do it anyway. Then they should be prepared to deal with the responses they get.
 
Sad to see you go Max. I agree with Krokus on his opinion the the TMF is not what it used to be, hence why this is my first post in a while. Myriads, Redefine the rules, make them clearer so that there can be no confusion and no conflict.
 
My 2 cents..

First I am sad to see Max go...truely a loss that will be felt for some time.

But I also fall on Myriads side of things; the only thing that "bothers" me about what Myriads said is quoted below; esp. the bolded part.

What I don't get is why Myriads did not include the other Moderators when external people have come against the forum for whatever reason...
It seems from Max's post that he was not aware of the legal attacks on the TMF forum.
First I find that tough on Myriads that he would fight that alone and second that other Mods didn't know of the situation.

Just my 2 cents.

I hope Max comes back but I also don't want to seem TMF destroyed...

Why is the TMF so hard on underage images and things that look inocent (and are)?

It's simple. What do I tell the mother who's family web site has been knocked off the web due to bandwidth overload who back traced the entry links to here and is horrified to find that thier site is being veiwed by people (who in her opinion) are perverts?
This has happend more times then I have fingers and toes.

Even better, what do I tell the mother of the 12 year old who has started GETTING e-mails addressed to her daughter from community members asking personal questions like did getting tickled turn you on? And so on. This has happend three times, and the authorities were brought in on it once. I spent a good chunk of a day talking to the east podunk police and a angry parent, putting out what was almost a forum ending fire.
 
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