Might loose job for tickling

[brahmslover]

...So I'm just needing some advice as to what you think I should expect or is there anything I should do to cover myself or make sure that they can't or won't fire me. I appreciate any input I can receive regarding this.

The best advice is get legal help on this. There are other factors we don't have here (being in HR myself at one time, I have dealt with a few of these):

• Could the employee be considered a "subordinate"? In other words, are you in a higher-level position than her? If so, there could be fraternization policies in effect here as well. It sound like there is very little time here, but I would review the fraternization policies to check that out.
  
• There is a responsibility by management to create a safe work environment for any employee - they must respond to her complaint and make sure it doesn't happen again. Otherwise they could find themselves in legal trouble from her. Leaving the meeting and saying it's none of their business was not a good move here, so I would not get confrontational at the meeting.
  
• If you are a union member, you probably have the right to representation at any disciplinary action.

I always took a simple stance about my social life - separate it from work. I rarely see any co-workers outside of the workplace, except the occasional retirement get-together. Even there I keep it professional. I know this is a tough lesson, but take this one with you and learn from the experience. Good luck with the meeting.

 

[barefeetarebest]

You are going to have to "fess up" about your affinity for being tickled, in order to save your job, if you feel it is worth saving. Not a position I would personally want to be in, myself.

The thing that is going to save you is that you sent the message on myspace off company time, not on the inter-office email. That could've come from anyone, including anyone here on this forum who also is on myspace.

The matter is up to you: Is your job worth exposing yourself for who you are to those who may look down at you? If it is, by all means, go ahead and do it. (You may be happier in life being "outed") I am not a lawyer, but in this country, I believe it is still legal to be yourself off company time. If you only contacted this person once, then they have you on nothing. She rejected your advances, and immediately brought them to the attention of your superiors as offensive; to which they approached you (I think prematurely) which is bullshit, in my opinion she is a C*U*N*T and so are they. What should have transpired is she brings it to their attention and (she) makes you fully aware that your advances are un-welcome. Then if you persist, then management becomes involved.
As it is, IF you are a union member, ABSOLUTELY get with your shop steward (whose duty it is to represent you and back YOU up, right OR wrong, and if they don't then they are a ball-less steward and you need to go over their head and later have them replaced) and business agents and president, if necessary, involved in this as they would have the avenues and legal advice necessary to get you off the hook. I hope you're union and can keep this out of the courts, because that would be the easiest and least embarrassing situation for you. If not, consult with a lawyer the MOMENT you feel your job is in jeopardy over this. If you are otherwise a competent, good and productive employee I don't feel you will be fired over this; especially not because of a situation begun by someone still on probation. Compare your value and what you have done against her potential. HAve your union or lawyer prepare a packet of info. concerning your work history with said company, strong suits, attributes, contributions, etc. This woman, in the end, really has nothing to compare if you are an asset to the company. While what you did was "wrong" by ethical standards, you still are entitled to one mistake on this subject. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN!!!

Good luck to you. Please let us know how things progress.

 

[Mitchell]

The real question here is the power issue. I had a situation similar to this, although in high school.

When I was in high school, in freshman year, I had a dispute with another student. The principal, who was a real asshole, automatically believed the other guy, and called me a liar, because, in his words "The guy was captain of the lacrosse team, and could not possibly lie". The guy who this idiot prinicpal said "Didnt lie" assaulted me. He held me to a wall, in woodshop class, and smothered a paint rag, filled with chemicals, in my face, an incident nowadays that could be considered assault.

A while later, my best friend saw the principal in the market, and, of course, both of us were furious at him. So, my friend said to the prinicpal "Hey, Marv, screw you". Well, his parents made my friend write the principal an apology letter, saying that because he was our "boss", he could expel us both. I strongly disagreed with him having to write the principal an apology, but my friend wrote the letter anyway, and was grounded, to boot. I didnt think the prinicpal could expel us for telling him to go fuck himself off school property. In all reality, he deserved it. I'd have gone right into the principal's office, and told him to fuck himself too, but didnt want to get expelled, because on school property, I knew that was a real possibility.

My point in telling you this is as follows: The big question here is the power factor. The point with both my principal, and your bosses, is where do they have power. To me, it seems like they may have overstepped their bounds, by threatening to fire you, for an incident off work grounds. You didnt threaten this woman, or send her harrassing mutiple e-mails. The only danger I see here is that if you dont get fired, and even if they keep you, you might get let go for some bullshit reason in a week or two anyway. Sexual harrassment is such a huge issue nowadays, that companies would rather fire one employee who they feel did it, then pay a lawsuit of thousands, for another employee who filed a harrassment suit.

Good Luck. I hope your meeting works in your favor. It sounds to me like they have no case, because it happened off work property, and was not a menacing threat. Hopefully, the whole thing will end up going away.

Mitch

 

[WorkInProgress]

I'd like to open by saying I find it really regretable that StuGatz sees fit to be insulting. This kind of community should be a sanctuary from that.

Now, turning to the problem at hand...

There's a fact that all of us have to be aware of. Like it or not, think it's fair or not, there are a lot of people out there, including people with high IQ's and open minds about a lot of other matters, who consider this kind of fetish and this kind of fetish community really really creepy. I wasn't previously planning to mention this here, but I will: A few months ago I went out on a personals date with a woman who was very smart and very nice, one who had been keeping an online blog for the last four years. We had a really nice time, and appeared to have the chemistry, not for a romance, but for a good-quality platonic friendship. We shared a lot of personal things that evening, too. And then I made the mistake of telling her about my fetish. I made a big point of saying that it wasn't something that platonic friends of mine particularly have to deal with, it's just one part of me. Well, she made the smoothest possible exit, and went home and yanked both her personal ad and her blog from being publicly searchable. It would appear that, in spite of all the common ground we had, she felt as if she had suddenly discovered she had spent three hours with the city's scariest sicko. And let me say again: this woman is neither an asshole nor an idiot. She's both intelligent and morally upright, and quite frankly, I'm sorry I traumatized her. I really am. (Please don't let this paragraph be a thread hijacker. If there's anything you want to tell me I'm wrong about here, please PM me or E-mail me.)

It sounds to me as if you've got some cards stacked against you no matter what you do. First of all, you did agree to meet with your boss privately, but they didn't let you. When those two barged in on the meeting, your boss should have joined with you in asking them to leave so that the two of you could talk alone. The trouble with an apology is, the problem may well not be that your co-worker thinks you did anything wrong to her. The problem in their minds may well be that they have just learned that you have an abnormality which freaks them out. That was certainly the case with the woman I just mentioned.

Now, the key to your next step lies in a very simple question: Is there a personnel policy manual which spells out procedures that must be followed in case of complaints against employees? If not, you're dead in the water. But if so, then I recommend you have a lawyer present for the meeting. That's step one. Step two, be clear on what it is that they're upset about. Is it your conduct in revealing something about your personal life, or is it the revelation itself? If it's a matter of conduct, then your case is that you had reason to think you and she were becoming friends outside of work, and that now that you know that this isn't the case, you'll stay away from her. If, on the other hand, it's about the fetish itself, then you need to see what rights you have vis-a-vis equal opportunity law, in which case you might be able to piggyback onto whatever legal gains gays have made in your state with respect to sexual preference as an illegal basis for discrimination.

Bottom line is, you should have a lawyer and you should be really clear on what it is they're going after you for. If you go in there without a lawyer, they will be in an easier position to maintain control over the conversation and keep you on the defensive, making up their own rules as they go along. If you have a lawyer present, they will be under more pressure to account for themselves and answer questions about their own actions here.

Good luck.

 

[Wolf]

I'd like to open by saying I find it really regretable that StuGatz sees fit to be insulting. This kind of community should be a sanctuary from that.

Now, turning to the problem at hand...

There's a fact that all of us have to be aware of. Like it or not, think it's fair or not, there are a lot of people out there, including people with high IQ's and open minds about a lot of other matters, who consider this kind of fetish and this kind of fetish community really really creepy. <<EDITED FOR SPACE, NOT CONTENT>>
Bottom line is, you should have a lawyer and you should be really clear on what it is they're going after you for. If you go in there without a lawyer, they will be in an easier position to maintain control over the conversation and keep you on the defensive, making up their own rules as they go along. If you have a lawyer present, they will be under more pressure to account for themselves and answer questions about their own actions here.

Good luck.

(EDITED FOR SPACE)

That was intelligent, reasoned, and considerate of "normal" people who don't share our interest.
Therefore, prepare yourself for an onslaught of stupid, petty, self-serving replies.

 

[brianspencer66]

My feeling is that even if your not fired you may want to think about looking for another gig. People will find out and talk about this and you may not feel very comfortable for a good while there. Or you can ride this out and hope in the long run it goes away, but people will not forget your the guy that wrote this girl the slightly kinky Email. For the time being to tell the truth I dont think this lady does not really want any contact with you and Id let it go. If you decide to stay and if in a few months opportunity presents itself perhaps then you may want to apologize. Keep in mind that dogs never take a poop where they sleep or eat food.

 

[Banshee]

Actually

They can fire you. Many companies have fired people for what they did on the internet. Saying you wouldn't talk with HR present on company time is in and of itself a fireable offense. If you worked for me you wouldn't have to come in for that meeting as you'd already be gone. I've fired people for less and in every case it stuck.

 

[goblue44]

Tell them to shove it

If I worked there, I would be looking for something else already. Why work for such a shithole of a place as that?

 

[doseone]

Thanks everyone for your feedback in regards to this issue. My main concern regarding this is one part loosing my job, but the more important issue that worries me is being labeled as someone who was fired for possible sexual harassment. Which would in turn, make it nearly impossible for me to get hired in another position as I work in the medical field and they are very strict about any sort of abuse issue. I would be in a sense blackballed from the community and unable to get a similar job. For further info, unfortunately I work in a non-unionized position/job and I have started to contact lawyers who are skilled in employment laws. One of the things working against me though is time, as so far I've been unable to get any consultations about my situation in the time period needed. As most of the people I've talked to say that it can't be done in 24hrs, and at earliest would take a couple days. So as of right now I have no choice but to go in alone. I'll keep you updated as to the outcome and what was said or goes down. Thanks again everyone for your continued support, feedback, and good advice. As I really appreciate it.

 

[ticklesenseless]

You have received a lot of good advice here.

One exception, do not speak with the alleged victim at this time.

First, speak with the highest level HR representative possible. Do not speak to a group of HR representatives. Speak to the Director, VP, etc. This is not a discussion for all HR.

I agree that you should be able to record your conversation with HR. They should be able to do likewise. Whatever you do, make sure they are aware you recording and have them confirm on tape that they know you are recording.

Next apologize on tape for not speaking with them the other day. It is fine to tell them the situation surprised you and you did not know how to react. Do not say or admit to anything about the accusations. If multiple HR reps came at you, that should be enough to say you were scared.

Then ask them to define your corporate policy on harassment.

Do not interrupt them or defend yourself while they are going through the policy. Bite your tongue if you have to.

Ask them to specify which part of the policy they are investigating with regard to your case. Again, listen and do not speak until they have finished their explanation.

Finally ask them what process they are following to investigate and make a decision regarding the alleged incident.

Any decent HR person should have no problem following the above steps. It protects both of you.

If you are not comfortable that you can adequately defend yourself during the process, request time to get a lawyer to assist in representing you. Remember you are not threatening them. You are looking to protect both yourself and the company. Express it to them in that fashion. Tell them you do not want misunderstandings on either side.

If they offer to share evidence with you, let them. They probably won't share all. During an investigation they need to try and protect people's privacy including the privacy of other "accusers\witnesses".

If it was truly one incident admit that it was stupid boneheaded thing to do, they have the email after all, and ask for guidance on how to move forward. In a lot of organizations and in most court cases, harassment requires a pattern. Again, the context of your email can be a tipping point but if there is truly no pattern, a reputable organization will give you a warning and put that in your permanent record. The warning may hamper raises and promotions but it should never leave the company. If there is a pattern, keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer. We can't help you.

Regarding the comments on treatment from people who know about this incident. Harassment swings both ways. You screwed up but outside of the investigation any reference to your tickling interest can also be viewed as sexual harassment.

If a pattern of harassment against you builds up, you are the victim and have the right to turn harassers into HR.

Never do anything like this again. Work is not a dating ground. It is where you make your livelihood.

To those thinking what happens outside work has no impact on the company, sadly you are wrong.

If you wish to date a co-worker, the two of you should make an appointment with the highest ranking member of HR that you can and discuss that interest before something happens. A director or VP level HR rep should be able to workout a policy that allows you to date while at the same time protecting the company. If there is manager, employee relationship, don't even think about it.

Another interesting tidbit on harassment, companies must protect you from being harassed by 3rd parties invited onsite. If the UPS guy sexually harasses you, you can file a complaint with your company.

Finally, sexual harassment can be anything that a reasonable person would consider sexual and that offends or disturbs the alleged victim. Your opinion doesn't matter. Only the victims. The same goes for other forms of harassment including age discrimination, racism, etc.

 

[vsa7a]

you know what..regardless of all these biased tickle fetish no sense of characters say to you. you need to step it up to your boss and impress him/her that you are not some pervert instead you are a decent human being and a competent worker. all you did was say you like being tickled. you could even simply say when you apologize as it was a miscommunication and being tickled means being amused with comedy and jokes. something like that. since it was brought up to them it is their business now because they have you in the spotlight and now see you as a liability. and its not about hiring lawyers or anything like that would help. be a man. and establish clear communication with your boss. and you should be in the clear.

be careful of stuff you say next time. MISCOMMUNICATION is a bitch.

i like being tickled(amused). [NOT i am some sick pervert who likes to wank off to some fetish BULLSHIT]

 

[maniactickler]

Personally, id have to find another job. i could never stay at a workplace where my tickling fetish is known. id be humiliated everyday i walked into the place.

 

[llaugher2001]

My heart goes out to you, and I wish you the best.
I agree, at the very least talk to a lawyer.
One question, your bio says you're 21 but you said you've been at this job for almost five years ...?
Best,
Llaugher

 

[ViperGTS]

Welcome to today's unreasonably paranoid and politically correct world.

Buncha straight edge jackasses, if you ask me.

 

[doseone]

Well I don't think I've updated my profile in quite a while, that's probably why it says I'm 21 still. As actually I'm 26, and some more info for you guys as I'm already starting to get worried they pushed the meeting off to Monday now, as the HR person cannot come in or something. So I had to take another day off with out pay. Then on top of it, I can't seem to log/sign into my works email account or website from home as I use to. As I keep getting a message saying that my username has been blocked. Which to me is not a good sign, about being able to keep my job. It seems like they've already made up their minds and are going to fire me. Once again, I'll keep everyone on here updated as to my status and what happens. Thanks again everyone for the advice and support during this stressful time for me. Hopefully my situation will help others in the future of not making the same mistake I did.

 

[ObservingEgo]

Don't shit where you eat or mix business with pleasure, so to speak... you're there to do a job, not mingle with women, especially by a creepy way such as the internet. If I'm an HR manager, I'd say you're a liability because you aren't taking accountability for your actions and you don't work well under pressure (your avoiding the situation instead of handling it and sticking up for yourself proves this).

It's not what you said that's the problem... it's how you said what you said and how you're handling the situation.

YOU'RE FIRED!!

 

[Horatio]

What do I know, but....

my understanding is that it didn't happen at work, or at a "work related" event so they really can't say it's harassment or a hostile work environment. If you're going to get fired over this (and you've already been suspended) then you probably have a case to recover lost wages and keep your job.

But, at that point, you have to ask yourself - how badly do I still want to work there? I personally would negotiate for my lost wages in exchange for my resignation.

 

[tickledgirl]

You made a huge error when you refused to cooperate. If you sent your coworker an unsolicited personal email that made her feel uncomfortable, you should have said "Yes, I did. I'm sorry if I made her uncomfortable. That was not my intension. Please tell her that I apologize. I will not do anything like that again." At that point, they probably would have written you up and let it go at that.

But you didn't do that, so now what? I would say that the odds are you will be fired. If I were you, I'd go to the meeting on Friday and say "I should have said this before..." And then simply and straightforwardly own up to your mistake, apologize for it, etc. Above all, ASSURE THEM THAT YOU WILL NEVER CONTACT THIS WOMAN AGAIN, FOR ANY REASON. Then hope for the best.

Good luck to you!

What he said. Making it an adversarial thing is not helpful for you. You should do your best to move away from that position.

If you're in an employment at will state, they don't have to charge you with harassment. They can just let you go.

But, if they do let you go without charging harassment (and I agree with other posters that'd be a very difficult charge to make stick) then they can not (legally) tell anyone that you harassed her. Any good HR person won't mention it to someone checking references. Most will just confirm the dates of your employment, and nothing else. Anything more opens them up to charges of defamation. So you should be okay in that regard.

Best of luck!

 

[Anna6-9]

My husband had a similar incident a few years ago (before we were together). He knew they were thinking of firing him so before they could he offered to resign instead. This way when he went for a new job he didnt have a fire on his record. This situation sucks my friend!

 

[the wiz]

If you're in an employment at will state, they don't have to charge you with harassment. They can just let you go.

this is not completely true; the employer can not just fire you without a reason, if he ask for one. if he was a good employee up until that moment, they need to show why the fire him.

I'm a manager for a all women non-profit federally funded organization; reading your story I have one question.

1. did you use company researches in any way?

the reason why I'm asking is if you sent that statement to the company email address then there is grounds for your dismissal. Reason why, you used company researches for personal use.

however, if you sent this email to her personal account, from you personal account on yours and her personal time; then the company do not have the right to suspend you let alone fire you. She, did not have the right to take personal correspondence to the job. if she felt threaten;then she should have taken it to the police. or just asked you not to correspond with her any longer.

according to the endless hours of training I receive concerning harassment; this is an none issue concerning the company. You should bring a tape recording into the meeting; refuse to sign any thing or speak about it them unless your attorney is present.

I believe you have a good suit not only against your company; but against the young lady that started this. you might want to talk to an lawyer; but you might want to be more selected about who you talk to, specially at work

 

[WorkInProgress]

When you learned that it was postponed till Monday, did you make further efforts to get a lawyer for Monday? Might a lawyer be able to call them on Monday and tell them, with lawyerly authority, that they need to postpone the meeting again to give the lawyer time to come with you? Or, might you show up on Monday and tell them that you need the meeting postponed so you can have a lawyer present?

Next point: The presence or absence of a union is not the all-important thing. In fact, it's relatively unimportant. The question is, do they have a personnel policy manual? Does it spell out procedures for reprimands, correction plans, hearings, and appeals? If so, then they are legally bound to follow it. This will also weigh on how much they can control the procedures. If there is no manual, or if there is a manual that allows them the prerogative to do anything they want with personnel matters, then you will be in a harder position. Whatever you do, though, find out what appeals process there is.

Given the fact that you were all ready to meet with your boss and that the HR people barged in on what was supposed to be a private meeting and tried to demand that you talk with them right then and there, I don't blame you for walking out, and I see no fair way they can hold that against you. That said, fairness may or may not play a part.

As for future jobs, I'm sure you have some legal rights when it comes to blackballing.

Whatever you do, don't resign unless they are willing to make a legally binding agreement with you that they will not disclose prejudicial information about you to anyone. A resignation only helps you if you are guaranteed the option of making it look as if you left on good terms.

 

[Wolf]

What-What-WHAT?!?!

this is not completely true; the employer can not just fire you without a reason, if he ask for one. if he was a good employee up until that moment, they need to show why the fire him.

I'm a manager for a all women non-profit federally funded organization; reading your story I have one question.

1. did you use company researches in any way?

the reason why I'm asking is if you sent that statement to the company email address then there is grounds for your dismissal. Reason why, you used company researches for personal use.

however, if you sent this email to her personal account, from you personal account on yours and her personal time; then the company do not have the right to suspend you let alone fire you. She, did not have the right to take personal correspondence to the job. if she felt threaten;then she should have taken it to the police. or just asked you not to correspond with her any longer.

according to the endless hours of training I receive concerning harassment; this is an none issue concerning the company. You should bring a tape recording into the meeting; refuse to sign any thing or speak about it them unless your attorney is present.

I believe you have a good suit not only against your company; but against the young lady that started this. you might want to talk to an lawyer; but you might want to be more selected about who you talk to, specially at work

Spelling and Grammar errors aside, this is a treasure trove of WRONG....

First, look up "Employment at Will" states...lots of them have very liberal hiring/firing laws....

Next....
Sue HER?
SHE Started this?
She didn't have the right to take it to her employers? That was his reason for knowing her, was that they were co-workers. He didn't know her otherwise! Of course it's relevant.

I'm not saying he should lose his job, of course, but blaming the recipient? Yeah, that speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong wrong!

I knew this kinda crap would start bubbling up eventually.....

 

[MrTicklefeet]

Spelling and Grammar errors aside, this is a treasure trove of WRONG....

First, look up "Employment at Will" states...lots of them have very liberal hiring/firing laws....

Next....
Sue HER?
SHE Started this?
She didn't have the right to take it to her employers? That was his reason for knowing her, was that they were co-workers. He didn't know her otherwise! Of course it's relevant.

Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong wrong!

I knew this kinda crap would start bubbling up eventually.....

Actually, writing her off of work was a bad idea. I don't think a lawyer would help. I keep my religion out of the work place. Leaves too many doors that can be opened, as stated above.

 

[mabus]

One fact I may have missed how did you get her e-mail address? Did she give it to you, or did you seek her out, and did you have her permission to find her e-mail address and e-mail her?

That will be a factor.

There are girls and guys I work with who have given me their e-mail addresses, and I have e-mailed them after work....hell, I e-mailed them at work!, but they e-mail each other much more than I e-mail any of them, so I'm not worried....we'll ALL get fired if anyone gets in trouble....
Hell, all the women gather around a computer and read the latest soap opera news....OUT LOUD, much to my annoyance, since I hate soap operas.

But there are other girls and guys who haven't given me their e-mail addresses, they just told me go find them on myspace. They were serious...but I never got around to searching myspace (a side note - I'm not that big a fan of myspace, not much there...that's really why I didn't bother yet...) But I still have their permission. Of course, I don't work with any tattletales on the level that would get someone fired or jailed....we DO look out for each other.

But I've had that at every job. I was never worried that someone would try to destroy someone else's livelihood ...except on race issues, I have seen whites lose their jobs at the restuarant I worked at when they took on the blacks, and the blacks could launch an racial insult at the whites and nothing got done about it, ever, except for the blacks getting even with the whites.
Thank god I left there. This has very strongly affected my outlooks on race, so I'm not even going to pretend to be politically correct about that, or anything else.
But before you all think I'm some bitter asshole, my current supervisor is black, and I'd think I'd throw myself in front of a bullet to defend her. She's kind, works hard, very smart, and is the definition of laid-back...and I can confide in her about ANYTHING, sex, politics, religion, you name it.

Doseone, go find a supervisor like this!

But I've never worked with anyone who got ousted for anything sexual in nature, and at every job I worked at, sex was talked about frequently. Again, if one person got fired, EVERYONE else would have to be let go, too....sometimes including the boss!

 

[tickledgirl]

this is not completely true; the employer can not just fire you without a reason, if he ask for one. if he was a good employee up until that moment, they need to show why the fire him.

They need a reason to fire you (i.e. to terminate your employment with cause) But they can just stop employing you any time they like. (Although WIP is correct that they may be bound by stuff in a personnel manual. But I wouldn't hold out much hope for that. They get to write it, and it can say whatever they want it to say...)

If they do that, they take a hit for unemployment payments and the like. But they are completely free to do so if they wish.

NB, this is assuming he's in an "employment at will" state. If not, it's a different ball game. But most (all?) are at-will now.