Misgivings about the current direction of gatherings in the Bay Area

[simulated]

Hey all,

I attended my first gathering in this area two years back; a munch in San Jose. I was 18 at the time, and I didn't know a thing about any of the people who were to be showing up. I remember sitting in a corner of the restaurant, picking at my food and sizing up all the groups around me, until I recognized the Baglefather from his profile picture and realized that yes, all these people do exist in real life. Even then, it took a ton of courage to walk over and introduce myself to a group that I knew nothing about save the fact that we all fetishized tickling. I told myself look, you can walk away now and nobody will be the wiser, just walk away, but I somehow managed to sit down and get to know people.

I'm so glad I did. I found they were all, well, normal (mostly, at least 😉 ). Ed and Karen, the hosts of the event, went out of their way to welcome me, as did the rest of the group. I met new friends, and got my first chance ever to play with someone who was as into tickling as I was (thanks, aquafeline 😀 ).

I don't claim to be a member of the "old guard" here, and there's a lot of history that I know nothing about. I do, however, feel that I have spent enough time with the bay area community to be seen as a regular, and believe I'd be recognized as such.

Anyhow, back to my story. Over the past two years I've grown to be friends with our quirky little community here, to the point where I'd be willing to hang out and simply talk with any one of you guys, play some games, etc.

Then, a couple months back I met Dave, at the same restaurant that I first met this community. Dave was a new face to me, but I really enjoyed his company. We hung out, talked about macintosh development (so I'm a nerd, sue me 😛), and generally hit it off quite well. He mentioned he was in the area looking for a job, and that he'd be moving back down into the area, and I wished him the best of luck. While I was out of town during the welcome back party, I was happy to see that everything had worked out ok.

Then I started to hear some rumblings and mutterings from various parties. Something was going down, but it wasn't really my place to get involved. The first I heard of a gathering in the Sacramento area was that it was full, which rather miffed me. Sac is an easy drive from my house, and had I actually known it was going down I would have come out to see you all, broaden my horizons. I was told it was only made public to locals before filling out, but people from LA were there too (people I'd have liked to meet!), and with a community so sparse as ours I'd consider myself local to Sacramento. Why even talk up an event which wasn't open to any but a select group? I don't care if you want to throw a party, hell, even invite the entire of the TMF save me, but that's a party, not a gathering. That was mildly disconcerting.

Basically what this boils down to is this: You may have been the host of the area for a long time, Dave, but to me and everyone who's joined the community since you left (and there have been quite a few of them), the Bay Area hosts are Ed and Karen. This feels like you're trying to come in and take back something that was once in your control, but no longer is. Statements like these

Props to Bagelfather for his kind efforts on my behalf.

really get me worked up, because Bagel wasn't hosting the events for you while you were gone, he was hosting them for the community. When I get an email that reads

Hosts in the San Jose area have changed. I'll be hosting an August event. Details to follow. Many of you know the drill, but for those who don't know or have forgotten, mail. Mail, mail, mail. Ed's taking a break from hosting. Karen will no longer be hosting or attending West Coast Gatherings events.

I wonder who decided on a change in hosts. Certainly not the group at large, who has been meeting at Ed and Karen's places for the past couple of years. I also wonder who it is who decided to ban not only someone who has put in hours and hours of work in planning events and offered their home to our community as a place to hang out and play in, but (chauvinistic as it may sound) a woman, from any future gatherings? Certainly not the community that meets in San Jose every couple of months.

In addition to that, banning her means that most likely we won't be seeing much of Redmage anymore - an expert at rope bondage who was always happy to teach others how to tie people up properly and safely.

It feels like the community I've come to know is being pulled apart needlessly, and without heed to what the members of that community want. You want to get rid of Karen? Fine, bring it up to us. You want to host instead of Ed? Ask us first. Not to disparage your efforts, but the only reason your email list works is because the community realizes that there needs to be some way to get announcements out to everyone. That doesn't make you head of the west coast scene, that makes you the guy who keeps everyone in the loop about what's going on, and while we're all thankful for your efforts, it doesn't give you the right to move unilaterally on things such as the aforementioned.

I've made this a public thread because it's clear that much has been going on in private that mere attendees like myself haven't been privy to, and that needs to stop. What exactly is going on, and how are we, as a group, going to deal with it?

 

[dvnc]

I do sympathize. As you've known only the events of the past two years, and not the previous eight years, it's likely confusing.

Basically what this boils down to is this: You may have been the host of the area for a long time, Dave, but to me and everyone who's joined the community since you left (and there have been quite a few of them), the Bay Area hosts are Ed and Karen. This feels like you're trying to come in and take back something that was once in your control, but no longer is. Statements like these

And yet Ed may host again. HE chose to step away from this BEFORE I made any changes to the local hosts. HIS choice ain't mine. I'd rather he hosts. He's good people. Won't stop me from being his friend. Hasn't, in fact.

I also know the count of who joined in the last two years. I also got the mails when folks dropped out. Even got lists of attendees. Heard from some of them, too. There's not many that joined in the last two years compared to the total list for the bay area, which is a smaller list than the total of California. This is smaller than the worldwide attendees. The numbers don't concern me. The numbers justified my decision.

Things changed. They've changed back. If you want to meet with Ed or with Karen, they DO have PM access here. LA Gatherings had once separated from West Coast Gatherings, and folks found them viable. There ARE other gatherings possible in California, thus.

As for the input of the community locally, I don't recall getting email from you. I do recall email from others. Had you wanted constructive input, you could simply have mailed. It was obvious from your previous post in this section that you're not happy with the situation. Others were not happy with the previous situation. It's changed back to where they can be happy with it. I can't please everyone, apparently. Alas.

Sorry you're so displeased. Do feel free to drop these events if they don't suit your needs. Mail the other hosts and see about meeting with them, or just hang with them as friends.

I would like to hear from anyone, here or at [email protected], with concerns or comments. So far, there's precious little negative input, and yours is the only one contesting this. Not counting host inputs, I've heard from several where this is a positive move.

I *am* sorry to have upset you by returning my events to their original format. I hope you find an alternative that suits you.

 

[AquaFeline]

I'm not happy with it either. I'm not happy with the behind closed doors approach.

I don't want to hear how things went down hill in the last four years, or who insulted/aggravated who, or worry about who's side I'm on.

We should find out from those with a vested interest (those in the area,) what is and is not working for them.

Not just the people who have been regularly attending events, anyone in the area whether they have attended anything or not. I've seen people show up once and then not attend, or people who had been regulars leave, and I don't think that their needs were being met. On the other hand there are some people still attending regularly.

It seems that another point of contention is that the community is too small to have splinter or sub groups. Is it really? How many people from the bay area are on the list, Dave?

Maybe if there was a splinter group that matched their needs they would choose to attend? On a recent post about not attending munches someone mentioned a fear of being a dirty old man of 40+ hanging around 20's and 30 year olds. Is there a chance maybe he would have felt more comfortable around a munch targeted towards 35+ ?

Also, to the sex stuff -- perhaps an alternate solution is to have those who want explicit sex stuff to be able to host that, advertise it as such, mark it as such, so that those folks can get their fix there. I think that should be tried, by someone willing to host it. And other gatherings don't have sex play.

The purely private party model isn't happening and putting it forward as an alternative isn't going to work right now with the way people think -- that players are a scarcity and that exclusion, for any reason, is evil. The thing in sac was a private party but it was still called a gathering, as I understand, because people wanted to let the world know that there was stuff going on in Sac. There hasn't been a gathering before that's filled up as far as I'm aware and I have felt sorry for others when the attendees talked about it like it was a fully open gathering.

 

[AquaFeline]

As for the input of the community locally, I don't recall getting email from you. I do recall email from others.

People rarely speak up when they're OK with things, and don't always speak up when they're unhappy.

 

[dvnc]

Uh, Aquafeline, I said "here, or at [email protected]" for a reason. Here is, well, here.

Some folks aren't public with their views, hence the email address. I want to hear, not to suppose. Suits no one to just have my opinion.

Again, I'm NOT saying that what was being hosted wasn't good, sufficient for those attending, etc. I'm saying that it wasn't in the format of the events titled West Coast Gatherings. Others are welcome to host other events in whatever fashion they desire. Encouraged, even. West Coast Gatherings were something I began, and they persisted with cooperation from many people. They still continue.

Folks wanting sex need another event. There's a whole mess of laws we researched when putting these together, and there's a number of issues with hosting sex parties. Incidentally, there's a number of those in the Bay Area too, and they're all quite private. You must KNOW someone to attend, and are screened, etc.

My goal was never to host such. Not against sex, mind you. Quite a fan. Just ain't the goal of the West Coast Gatherings.

All these events are private. Screened. Open events are available elsewhere, too. The largest events in our community are private in EXACTLY the same fashion. That's not going to change.

Did you think I had space for more at the Sac event? I didn't. Was rather crowded there. Next time I'll target a larger space.

The Bay Area has over 40 people active. Near twice that were on the list once.

If you were to have checked with anyone on the Sac list, you'd have found that they were mailed. If anyone was Sac local and wanted in, they got in. No one from that area was excluded. THAT was the goal. It's been a while since they had one, 'cause Danimal ain't there to host.

It's rare that I hear anything from the list except for their intention of attending. Thus, when I hear complaints, I check, carefully, often for months, as in this case, and then respond.

I hear your complaint about the change. I see where you're misunderstanding aspects of this (like the concept of a private party/invite-only deal excluding others, instead of something particularly for Sac's folk). I'm sorry this feels so poorly for you. If there's not enough detail here, do ask for more. I don't want you feeling you've no voice.

 

[AquaFeline]

If you were to have checked with anyone on the Sac list, you'd have found that they were mailed. If anyone was Sac local and wanted in, they got in. No one from that area was excluded. THAT was the goal. It's been a while since they had one, 'cause Danimal ain't there to host.

For the sac event it was put out to the sac community, but then some additional people not from sac were invited by proxy by sac people I'm assuming, and then a few others who were complete newbies were invited, not from the sacramento area, after they said they wanted to go and the event was stated closed. Isn't that correct?

I'm hearing that you're concerned with how I feel but not what actually happens. Kind of like saying, "I'm sorry you're hurt by what I did," doesn't imply that you're sorry what happened, merely sorry that they had been hurt by it. Seems like patronizing.

 

[dvnc]

Two individuals were brought in. A few were invited. Luckily, they chose not to come, as I'd've had to book a larger room.

You were invited by me. I wanted to bring a couple of friends. Big surprise. I'm sociable.

Steph brought one friend. Asked first, even. Was allowable, as both had participated in Sac long before LA's events were off the ground.

I *am* hurt that you feel I'm not interested in what actually happens. The whole REASON for the return to how WCG are done is because of my concern for what actually happens.

I'm also sorry that what I'm doing is hurting you.

This is a LOT different than an "I'm sorry you're hurt" sort of response.

 

[bellystrokes]

"I was told it was only made public to locals before filling out, but people from LA were there too (people I'd have liked to meet!),"



Hey Sim, I guess you mean me………only Southern CA person there. Thank you. My goddess Steph and I get together often and we thought Dave's SAC gathering would cover a few bases. Steph inquired about me attending and dvnc approved.

 

[simulated]

I do sympathize. As you've known only the events of the past two years, and not the previous eight years, it's likely confusing.

What is with this patronizing tone? I made it very, very clear in my post that I was coming from a standpoint of the past two years, but that being here for that period of time made me a regular in the community. I may not have been going to events for the past ten years, but everyone there today knows my name, and from the PM's that I have gotten I know I'm not alone in this. (see, I can cite vague unsubstantiated support too!)

And yet Ed may host again. HE chose to step away from this BEFORE I made any changes to the local hosts. HIS choice ain't mine. I'd rather he hosts. He's good people. Won't stop me from being his friend. Hasn't, in fact.

Doesn't sound like what I've been hearing. If it truly was stepping away from hosting, with nothing ulterior going on, I'd like to hear it from him, but again that wasn't a point of contention for me.

I also know the count of who joined in the last two years. I also got the mails when folks dropped out. Even got lists of attendees. Heard from some of them, too. There's not many that joined in the last two years compared to the total list for the bay area, which is a smaller list than the total of California. This is smaller than the worldwide attendees. The numbers don't concern me. The numbers justified my decision.

So you're saying that the fact that the numbers that came out and met us for the first time are irrelevent because compared to the total size of the California list they're insignificant?

And I can't recall anyone dropping out, since I've been there, save one couple I'd only met once.

Furthermore, there it is again. "The numbers justified my decision." Did you not read what I was posting about up there? It's not your decision to make. A lot can happen over two years.

Things changed. They've changed back. If you want to meet with Ed or with Karen, they DO have PM access here. LA Gatherings had once separated from West Coast Gatherings, and folks found them viable. There ARE other gatherings possible in California, thus.

So you'd be willing to pass off the list of West Coast TMFers to, say, Karen and Ed to manage themselves? Sure, that could be one option.

As for the input of the community locally, I don't recall getting email from you. I do recall email from others. Had you wanted constructive input, you could simply have mailed. It was obvious from your previous post in this section that you're not happy with the situation. Others were not happy with the previous situation. It's changed back to where they can be happy with it. I can't please everyone, apparently. Alas.

I prefer to keep my greivances out in the open. It leads to a lot less confusion and keeps everyone on the same page.

Sorry you're so displeased. Do feel free to drop these events if they don't suit your needs. Mail the other hosts and see about meeting with them, or just hang with them as friends.

I would like to hear from anyone, here or at [email protected], with concerns or comments. So far, there's precious little negative input, and yours is the only one contesting this. Not counting host inputs, I've heard from several where this is a positive move.

I *am* sorry to have upset you by returning my events to their original format. I hope you find an alternative that suits you.

This is remarkably condenscending.

You have also failed to mention why, if the gatherings were being run so poorly, you didn't forward the complaints to the hosts so that they could work to fix it. Either there were no complaints and this was simply a justification for taking things back into your control, or there were, but you wanted the practices to continue so you could point out what a failure things had been while you were away. Either one is unacceptable.

And tell me again, why you've banned Karen from the community. I know I'm not the only one eager to hear...

 

[simulated]

Hey Sim, I guess you mean me………only Southern CA person there. Thank you. My goddess Steph and I get together often and we thought Dave's SAC gathering would cover a few bases. Steph inquired about me attending and dvnc approved.

Aye, I did mean you and Steph (I thought she was socal too, my mistake). And it's true what I said about wanting to meet you guys, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm attacking you for attending.

 

[dvnc]

What is with this patronizing tone? I made it very, very clear in my post that I was coming from a standpoint of the past two years, but that being here for that period of time made me a regular in the community. I may not have been going to events for the past ten years, but everyone there today knows my name, and from the PM's that I have gotten I know I'm not alone in this. (see, I can cite vague unsubstantiated support too!)

I've no desire to sound patronizing, and I do apologize for any appearances of such. Not my desire.

It's fact that your perspective and mine will differ. I don't agree with you. So be it.

I'm glad to hear you've support in your views. Now you need only to host an event, or have one of those who disagree with my methods host one of their own. It's not that tough.

Doesn't sound like what I've been hearing. If it truly was stepping away from hosting, with nothing ulterior going on, I'd like to hear it from him, but again that wasn't a point of contention for me.

So ask him. You know the man.

So you're saying that the fact that the numbers that came out and met us for the first time are irrelevent because compared to the total size of the California list they're insignificant?

No, you're saying that. I would never even THINK of my attendees as insignificant.

And I can't recall anyone dropping out, since I've been there, save one couple I'd only met once.

I don't doubt this. I'm not saying you DO recall such. I'm saying that I manage a list of attendees, and I know what I got from them in email.

Furthermore, there it is again. "The numbers justified my decision." Did you not read what I was posting about up there? It's not your decision to make. A lot can happen over two years.

I can see you'd like things to be different for me than they are. That won't change my perspective. It IS my decision to make. That it's supported by the rest of the hosts and cohosts of the West Coast Gatherings helps me with the decision.

I can see that you'd like things to be as they were. Talk to the previous crew with whom you wish to meet. I am not the only host in California, nor the only host on the continent. Others host. Host yourself. You're an adult or you'd not be posting here.

So you'd be willing to pass off the list of West Coast TMFers to, say, Karen and Ed to manage themselves? Sure, that could be one option.

Would I? I don't recall mentioning this. Don't recall even hinting at this. The West Coast Gatherings list, like NEST, MidWest NEST, GLAT, etc, is a private list for private events. As them for their lists and you'll get a similar response. They're not public. They're private.

Again, as you've made good friendships, work with your friends. If you're angry with me, you need not bother with me any more than you choose to do.

I prefer to keep my greivances out in the open. It leads to a lot less confusion and keeps everyone on the same page.

So long as you're choosing to do so.

This is remarkably condenscending.

You have also failed to mention why, if the gatherings were being run so poorly, you didn't forward the complaints to the hosts so that they could work to fix it. Either there were no complaints and this was simply a justification for taking things back into your control, or there were, but you wanted the practices to continue so you could point out what a failure things had been while you were away. Either one is unacceptable.

No one requires you to attend. If you're so dissatisfied with things, avoid these events. I won't fault you for not attending if you dislike things. Mail in and cancel your enrollment if you wish to receive no further contact.

You have that right.

As for what hosts heard, this implies you speak to hosts. My hosts and I do communicate by email, and I've had such discussions in the past with some. If you're hearing from a host who's telling you otherwise, this would be without complete truth.

The West Coast Gatherings were ever in "my control" as I run the list. No need to take back what I've run since the beginning.

Anyone can run their own list.

And tell me again, why you've banned Karen from the community. I know I'm not the only one eager to hear...

Karen's not banned from any community. Karen's no longer attending West Coast Gatherings. Why would you malign Karen in this fashion. Not a kind thing to do to her.

Karen has hosted in her home. Karen has told me, within a group discussion, that she's capable of running events. When she chooses to do so, you'll know. General Western Gatherings is open for all hosts.

When LA chose, for a time, to split off from WCG, they posted their events there. When they chose to rejoin, they moved back here.

We're all adults. Free to make our own choices.

I hear you as being very dissatisfied with the changes I've made with my event list. I wish that this weren't so. You and Aquafeline both express dissatisfaction, for which I wish I could correct things for you, and NOT go against the way I designed gatherings to be.

I can't have both, though. Hence my choice to host the West Coast Gatherings the way that I do. I just proved to myself and those attending that this way of hosting works well. I had no complaints from anyone there, save Aquafeline, who waited to this email to express dissatisfaction.

My decisions have already been made. I've already moved on. Did so back before pre-announcing LA's next events. I'll discuss it with you at length here if this helps you. It won't help me, as I thought long and hard about these points and several others before making my decision, and discussed such with many of my friends hosting in other areas, and with my cohosts in California throughout this year.

This wasn't easy, or simple. It is as it needs to be for me and for those I host.

I am sorry for disappointing you. I'll expect your request to withdrawl from these events soon enough, and I do understand where I fail to meet your needs in this. It's simply a difference of opinions between us, and I respect your right to have a differing opinion from mine.

You can then do as I do, and host these, or seek someone to host these for you. Good fortunes to you with that!

 

[bellystrokes]

Aye, I did mean you and Steph (I thought she was socal too, my mistake). And it's true what I said about wanting to meet you guys, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm attacking you for attending.

Awesome. Look forward to meeting you down the road.

 

[simulated]

I've no desire to sound patronizing, and I do apologize for any appearances of such. Not my desire.

It's fact that your perspective and mine will differ. I don't agree with you. So be it.

I'm glad to hear you've support in your views. Now you need only to host an event, or have one of those who disagree with my methods host one of their own. It's not that tough.

What I am saying is that it is neither my call nor yours, and there needs to be a discussion about what is best for this group. And while I'm not familiar with the differences between your methods and others, this isn't a philisophical complaint on my part. What I am concerned about here is your disregard for the rest of the community up here.

Being the guy who runs the email list, it's certainly your call to keep a psycopathic murderer off the email list. Everyone agrees with that. But on more substantial changes, like those that we've seen in the past few weeks, it should be the decision of the community at large.

So ask him. You know the man.

Will do.

No, you're saying that. I would never even THINK of my attendees as insignificant.

Then help me out here. What exactly were you saying?

I can see you'd like things to be different for me than they are. That won't change my perspective. It IS my decision to make. That it's supported by the rest of the hosts and cohosts of the West Coast Gatherings helps me with the decision.

I can see that you'd like things to be as they were. Talk to the previous crew with whom you wish to meet. I am not the only host in California, nor the only host on the continent. Others host. Host yourself. You're an adult or you'd not be posting here.

Why, then, is it your decision? What gives you that right?

And which hosts and cohosts? It's certainly not the Bay Area hosts, and their opinions are valued far more than those of people who have never attended an event up here.

Would I? I don't recall mentioning this. Don't recall even hinting at this. The West Coast Gatherings list, like NEST, MidWest NEST, GLAT, etc, is a private list for private events. As them for their lists and you'll get a similar response. They're not public. They're private.

Again, as you've made good friendships, work with your friends. If you're angry with me, you need not bother with me any more than you choose to do.

Alright, fair enough. Lets say, hypothetically, the Bay Area group splits off and does its own thing. You'd be happy to send out an email to the entire list saying that the Bay Area community is going to be running it's own events now, and that anyone who wants to get on their email list should email [host's address]?

And you're right, I do have good friends. This entire community could fall apart and I, personally, would still have friends to play with, talk, etc. However, I've seen how important these relationships are in my own life, and I want to be sure that the munches and such where I formed such relationships are still around for others to have those same opportunities.

No one requires you to attend. If you're so dissatisfied with things, avoid these events. I won't fault you for not attending if you dislike things. Mail in and cancel your enrollment if you wish to receive no further contact.

You have that right.

As for what hosts heard, this implies you speak to hosts. My hosts and I do communicate by email, and I've had such discussions in the past with some. If you're hearing from a host who's telling you otherwise, this would be without complete truth.

The West Coast Gatherings were ever in "my control" as I run the list. No need to take back what I've run since the beginning.

Anyone can run their own list.

I will allow others to speak on the contact with the hosts, as you are correct in pointing out that it's not my area.

However, you don't seem to understand my motivations for posting here. If I was content to simply shrug it off and fade away I wouldn't have started this thread. Finding this community has been a wonderful experience for me, and my involvement with the group has become an important part of my life. And I'm not content to simply let this group be pulled apart without speaking up.

Karen's not banned from any community. Karen's no longer attending West Coast Gatherings. Why would you malign Karen in this fashion. Not a kind thing to do to her.

You say that as though it was her choice, that it wasn't you forcing her out. On other points I may not have the full story, but on this I know for a fact I'm correct, as does everyone in the bay area community.

The fact that you're trying to turn this back onto me is kind of amusing, as I've maligned nobody in this case. And yet this is the third time you've dodged this question.

Why have you taken it upon yourself to bar Karen from the West Coast Gatherings. Cut the crap.

I hear you as being very dissatisfied with the changes I've made with my event list. I wish that this weren't so. You and Aquafeline both express dissatisfaction, for which I wish I could correct things for you, and NOT go against the way I designed gatherings to be.

I can't have both, though. Hence my choice to host the West Coast Gatherings the way that I do. I just proved to myself and those attending that this way of hosting works well. I had no complaints from anyone there, save Aquafeline, who waited to this email to express dissatisfaction.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, and this is just picking up on an offhand comment, starfires wrote to you as well. If that's the case, then how many others haven't you mentioned?

And which method of hosting is it that works, exactly? The one where you ban a prominent member and host from the community because you don't like her and state that things are going to work my way from now on? Suffice it to say, even if you're 100% correct that we were going about things in precisely the wrong way, you've still harmed the bay area community.

My decisions have already been made. I've already moved on. Did so back before pre-announcing LA's next events. I'll discuss it with you at length here if this helps you. It won't help me, as I thought long and hard about these points and several others before making my decision, and discussed such with many of my friends hosting in other areas, and with my cohosts in California throughout this year.

This wasn't easy, or simple. It is as it needs to be for me and for those I host.

I am sorry for disappointing you. I'll expect your request to withdrawl from these events soon enough, and I do understand where I fail to meet your needs in this. It's simply a difference of opinions between us, and I respect your right to have a differing opinion from mine.

You can then do as I do, and host these, or seek someone to host these for you. Good fortunes to you with that!

I'm going to speak openly here. I think you have control issues. I think it's very important for you to be the "guy in charge" in this group. Even when you weren't even living in the area, you still wouldn't let the current hosts email the list directly, instead forcing all communication to go through yourself. Now you're back in town, and you want to be in control once again.

Quite frankly, I don't care what's good for you personally. I care what's good for my friends, the people who attend these gatherings, and those who I've spent the past two years trying to convince how awesome the people are, and how we're not a bunch of weirdos, and how they really should come and hang out sometime soon. And the actions that you're taking, in the manner that you're doing so, are not good for the group.

You've been gone for a long time. Things change. If you felt they were changing for the worse, then you bring it up with the hosts, and if you're dissatisfied with the response you get there, with the group at large. We're not your community, we're the bay area community, and we'd exist whether or not you were involved.

(And I have no intention of withdrawing from these events, sorry. They're too important to me. Which kind of leaves you in a bind, doesn't it?)

 

[SpiffyTickler]

I can't claim 2 years of attendance like Simulated has, and I've only been to the most recent gathering and munch. Despite being so new to the group I'm going to give my 2 cents.

I met and talked with Karen at both of the meets I went to, and each time she left me with a great impression. She's an incredibly warm and inclusive person who genuinely cares about everyone around her. She's now one of the people I most look forward to seeing when I attend these meets.

Naturally, I was not happy after reading the bulletin that was sent out.

I do not think it is in the best interest of the gatherings to exclude such a wonderful person from their involvement. I have seen nothing to suggest that she is anything but an amazing hostess. The views that have been expressed to me by others have only reinforced this view.

I also do not feel that such a decision should be made behind closed doors. If these gatherings are still a public affair open to those who wish to come, rather than a private party open to those whom the host wishes to come, then these sorts of decisions should be made by those who attend and in an open forum.

 

[dvnc]

I see what you're posting. I understand you feel that way. If it's negative for the San Jose events, then she'll be the person to save them for you, him, Aquafeline, and anyone else.

West Coast Gatherings aren't a public affair. They're very much private. Again, ask the hosts of NEST, GLAT, MidWest NEST, etc. for their event lists, or for a vote as to how they do things. You'll find that attendence at these events isn't a right.

You DO have a right to attend what you choose. Make your voice heard, your feelings felt. Don't attend a West Coast Gathering if you oppose this situation. Demonstration of your sentiments is valuable, and will instruct all.

I'm glad she treated you well. That is as it should be. That's not as it is for everyone. We disagree. There's more than four on my list. When we're to dozens, I'll acknowledge that you'd rather attend her events.

Then, again, I'll invite you to discuss this with her. I'll continue with Sac and LA. California is a BIG state. More than one event existed here before. I united LA with us. Means there's space for another CA event. Bellytickler was quite successful, and has visitors from all over the country.

Means anyone can host.

 

[simulated]

There's more than four on my list.

Mine's bigger.

 

[dvnc]

Mine's bigger.

Wrong account?

 

[simulated]

Wrong account?

Aye, it was too close to a more public alias of mine.

So you're back to answer my questions, I take it?

 

[dvnc]

Did you have more?

 

[simulated]

Did you have more?

What, accounts?

Nah. When I first joined I used the more private of two online aliases that I go by, but I realized that you could track down my real name from it. Being paranoid (we've all been there) I remade my account into something more generic. Edited it back to avoid confusion.

But you're still evading my questions. And I assure you aquafeline and spiffytickler are actual people, knowing them both personally 😛

 

[Icycle]

Did you have more?

How about starting by answering the questions he has already asked, like this one:

Why have you taken it upon yourself to bar Karen from the West Coast Gatherings?

What, specifically, has Karen done that warrents not only removing her from hosting events, but going even further and removing her from your mailing list and prohibiting her from attending events that you run?

 

[dvnc]

You'll have to ask Karen that. It really shouldn't be difficult for you, as her husband. I'm actually amazed that you don't already know the details of this, intimately.

I won't be part of an online negation of a former host. If she wants that posted, she'll post it. If she and I disagree there, then I'll disagree there.

If, in the course of the long debate-format posts, you missed the original answer, do let me quote it again:

Karen's not banned from any community. Karen's no longer attending West Coast Gatherings.

Clearly, you'd missed part of the monster thread this has become. That quote's pulled from earlier today, in this thread.

Karen's not banned from the TMF, or California, or anywhere else, to my knowledge. Has no restrictions from contacting or receiving contact from anyone. Thus she's free, as is the REST of the planet, to have folks to her home as others do.

Indeed, I don't honest understand why she'd want to host my events. This thread could pass the size of the largest thread in this forum, and I'll still be asking the same question - Given that she's said to me, in February, that she could run events of her own, and that you'd help with her mail list, why is it MY responsibility to arrange this?

You can help her run them from YOUR home. Bagelfather's not hosting presently. It's going to be your home anyway. Help her run her events there. Much more constructive than anything that can be accomplished in this fashion here.

 

[simulated]

You'll have to ask Karen that. It really shouldn't be difficult for you, as her husband. I'm actually amazed that you don't already know the details of this, intimately.

I won't be part of an online negation of a former host. If she wants that posted, she'll post it. If she and I disagree there, then I'll disagree there.

If, in the course of the long debate-format posts, you missed the original answer, do let me quote it again.

Clearly, you'd missed part of the monster thread this has become. That quote's pulled from earlier today, in this thread.

That wasn't an answer. That wasn't even a correct non-answer. The way you phrased your statement made it seem as though it was her choice, which it clearly wasn't.

I know the reasons given, and they're not at all solid. I'm fairly certain that you're banning her from the gatherings because you and some other hosts don't like her very much, but I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt to come forward and give an explanation.

Karen's not banned from the TMF, or California, or anywhere else, to my knowledge. Has no restrictions from contacting or receiving contact from anyone. Thus she's free, as is the REST of the planet, to have folks to her home as others do.

You know damn well that's not the issue at hand.

Indeed, I don't honest understand why she'd want to host my events. This thread could pass the size of the largest thread in this forum, and I'll still be asking the same question - Given that she's said to me, in February, that she could run events of her own, and that you'd help with her mail list, why is it MY responsibility to arrange this?

You can help her run them from YOUR home. Bagelfather's not hosting presently. It's going to be your home anyway. Help her run her events there. Much more constructive than anything that can be accomplished in this fashion here.

The reason is, of course, legitimacy, and that you have the names of those in the area. For as long as I can remember, the advice given to anyone in California has been "email this address and get on the list." I've said it many times myself, and that was how I got started here.

You fail to see that none of us are arguing for ourselves here, as we've already gotten to know people from the community; we've made our contacts. I'm arguing for the future of the gatherings in the area. We don't want to simply play with people we know. We want others to be able to come and meet us, to talk and play with us. I feel it's something I owe to those who haven't come out and met anyone yet, as I've grown so much from having that experience. Pay it forward, you know.

If you would be willing to put out an email to the entire list saying that gatherings are going to be hosted in the San Jose area on a regular basis, and that people who would like to know about them should email [email address] to get on the list, I don't think there'd be any problem.

 

[simulated]

Also, that's one point. Still outstanding are

Why, then, is it your decision? What gives you that right?

And which method of hosting is it that works, exactly? The one where you ban a prominent member and host from the community because you don't like her and state that things are going to work my way from now on? Suffice it to say, even if you're 100% correct that we were going about things in precisely the wrong way, you've still harmed the bay area community.

And from your response to spiffy, I have another

I'm glad she treated you well. That is as it should be. That's not as it is for everyone. We disagree. There's more than four on my list. When we're to dozens, I'll acknowledge that you'd rather attend her events.

I think that when we were in Santa Cruz we had twenty something show up, which was the biggest event so far. There is no way you have complaints on that magnitude, period, as it would require every single person who's ever attended one of these events to email you to complain.

 

[dvnc]

If you don't like my answers, so be it. Not my place to decide what you should or shouldn't accept.

If you know the reasons given, then why are you bothering to ask? If you know the reasons given, why are you "fairly certain" about anything?

Why would you want to attend the events of such a villain? Don't give me any benefit of doubt. Judge me and move on.

If I'm the legitimacy for California, why do you insist I'm wrong for doing as I've chosen to do?

As for hosting with folks you don't know, that's HOW it works. You start events, and based on how folks respond, they attend these events. You can, and I think you should, host events. Pay it forward indeed. Host.

You not only don't NEED me for this, you don't HAVE me for this. It's not negotiable. Been tried already this year.

It's my decision because I organize these events. Doubt that logic? Tell Max how to host NEST. Tell Bella how to host MidWest NEST. Tell Mimi how to host GLAT. Pick an organizer, and tell them how to run their events.

NEST is a GREAT reputation on which to build, after all. Tell Max he needs to make announcements for your events, and give you his list, etc.

I think you mistake my desire to be courteous in response to you for my intention to do anything for you, particularly, or anyone else who argues how West Coast Gatherings should go. I actually can say, categorically, that I'm an authority on gatherings. I coined the silly term. I don't owe you anything here, and offer what I do because I'm genuinely interested in your perspective, and that of the others that are so against what I've already chosen to do.