oh how SWEET it is!!!! no ring for "Fat Boy"....

[primetime]

ticklingfeet4fu, it's great you read books, but your own observations on sports would be better. that is what i do when i watch sports. i am enjoying the game, but i am observing a lot of other things as well. i love watching post game news conferences because i want to hear what people say. so, when i see, hear or read someone talking about another player, i try to observe their behavior myself. i never believe everything the media says. trust me, sportswriters are not all that intelligient. i'm sure we all agree on that. so whenever i read someone badmouthing Kobe Bryant for example, i asked myself "why is this writer badmouthing Kobe? what did he actually do?" whenever Kobe Bryant has an interview during or after a game, he is polite and never talks trash. he usually smiles and gives good interviews. so, how in the world do people think he's arrogant? you cant go off his court demeanor because he has an intense look, like everyone else on the court. that is why i ask people "what has Kobe done that you have PERSONALLY OBSERVED that backs up your claim?". i find it amazing that no one can come up with specifics. oh, some may find a quote here and there, but if you ever listen and watch Kobe's interviews, he doesnt portray a typical arrogant athlete (Terrell Owens comes to mind...).

now, am i saying that people have to love Kobe? no, you dont have to love the guy, but i am trying to understand the hatred towards him. hell, clue me in so i can hate him too. he has me completely fooled. someone, ANYONE, show me the light! why should i hate Kobe and it has to be specific. cheated on his wife? not enough for me to hate him. did he try to kill the Pope? did he try to persecute an entire nation? is he a member of the KKK? what?

as for my bashing of Shaq. there is a reason to despise the man. i have wrote many a reason why Laker fans are upset with Shaq and enjoyed watching him lose. see, Shaq ALL YEAR LONG has badmouthed the LAKERS, not just Kobe Bryant. he laughed and made jokes about our owner, our team, Kobe, and the CITY OF LA. he left because he wasnt going to get paid an obscene amount of money, but he is not the poster boy of a "Model Employee". if you were an owner, would you pay a player that badmouths you, then doesnt exactly have the greatest work ethic either? i highly doubt you would. this wasnt about Kobe vs Shaq. it is about Jerry Buss vs Shaq as the reason why Shaq left. that is why i badmouth Shaq. do you honestly think Shaq is going to leave LA, BADMOUTH the place, and still have a place in my heart? the man is fawned over by everyone and wonders why LA fans cant stand him. that is the reason why i gloated when he lost. Kobe didnt get a ring, but neither did the big BABY.

tickletoy, i understand the economics of basketball, but again, it comes down to principle. i dont give a damn about an employee if he is going to treat me like dirt. to hell with him....if i pay him, how does that make me look? if i paid him what he wanted, what would motivate him? if i am going to pay 30 million dollars a year, i want a SUBSTANTIAL return and some motivation from him. he wasnt giving it, so i would refuse to pay him. again, he is not the SOLE reason why the Lakers have championships. i think Phil, Kobe and the rest of the crew also played a MAJOR part in it. Shaq even went on to say this year's Heat team was the best team he has ever played for. so those Laker championship teams were nothing but a memory huh. to hell with Fat Boy. i will truly enjoy watching him lose his skills and become one big fat problem. enjoy him Heat, because he is way past his prime......

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

ticklingfeet4fu, it's great you read books, but your own observations on sports would be better. that is what i do when i watch sports. i am enjoying the game, but i am observing a lot of other things as well. i love watching post game news conferences because i want to hear what people say. so, when i see, hear or read someone talking about another player, i try to observe their behavior myself. i never believe everything the media says. trust me, sportswriters are not all that intelligient. i'm sure we all agree on that. so whenever i read someone badmouthing Kobe Bryant for example, i asked myself "why is this writer badmouthing Kobe? what did he actually do?" whenever Kobe Bryant has an interview during or after a game, he is polite and never talks trash. he usually smiles and gives good interviews. so, how in the world do people think he's arrogant? you cant go off his court demeanor because he has an intense look, like everyone else on the court. that is why i ask people "what has Kobe done that you have PERSONALLY OBSERVED that backs up your claim?". i find it amazing that no one can come up with specifics. oh, some may find a quote here and there, but if you ever listen and watch Kobe's interviews, he doesnt portray a typical arrogant athlete (Terrell Owens comes to mind...).

now, am i saying that people have to love Kobe? no, you dont have to love the guy, but i am trying to understand the hatred towards him. hell, clue me in so i can hate him too. he has me completely fooled. someone, ANYONE, show me the light! why should i hate Kobe and it has to be specific. cheated on his wife? not enough for me to hate him. did he try to kill the Pope? did he try to persecute an entire nation? is he a member of the KKK? what?

as for my bashing of Shaq. there is a reason to despise the man. i have wrote many a reason why Laker fans are upset with Shaq and enjoyed watching him lose. see, Shaq ALL YEAR LONG has badmouthed the LAKERS, not just Kobe Bryant. he laughed and made jokes about our owner, our team, Kobe, and the CITY OF LA. he left because he wasnt going to get paid an obscene amount of money, but he is not the poster boy of a "Model Employee". if you were an owner, would you pay a player that badmouths you, then doesnt exactly have the greatest work ethic either? i highly doubt you would. this wasnt about Kobe vs Shaq. it is about Jerry Buss vs Shaq as the reason why Shaq left. that is why i badmouth Shaq. do you honestly think Shaq is going to leave LA, BADMOUTH the place, and still have a place in my heart? the man is fawned over by everyone and wonders why LA fans cant stand him. that is the reason why i gloated when he lost. Kobe didnt get a ring, but neither did the big BABY.

tickletoy, i understand the economics of basketball, but again, it comes down to principle. i dont give a damn about an employee if he is going to treat me like dirt. to hell with him....if i pay him, how does that make me look? if i paid him what he wanted, what would motivate him? if i am going to pay 30 million dollars a year, i want a SUBSTANTIAL return and some motivation from him. he wasnt giving it, so i would refuse to pay him. again, he is not the SOLE reason why the Lakers have championships. i think Phil, Kobe and the rest of the crew also played a MAJOR part in it. Shaq even went on to say this year's Heat team was the best team he has ever played for. so those Laker championship teams were nothing but a memory huh. to hell with Fat Boy. i will truly enjoy watching him lose his skills and become one big fat problem. enjoy him Heat, because he is way past his prime......

I am not looking for anyone to hate Kobe. You should not be looking for a reason to hate anyone. In fact, I chose my words poorly by using the term hate. I dislike the guy. He is a great basketball player, but I find him to be selfish on the court. I think ( only my opinion ) he would rather take the last shot and lose a game than to pass off to an open man and let him take the shot. I am not really sure that makes a lot of sense, but my point is he would rather have the spotlight than to let someone else shine. Again, there is no fact to base that on. Only an observation. I grew up watching Dr.J, Kareem, DJ, Bird, Magic and of course Jordan. What made them so special is that they seem to let other guys take big shots in big spots. They found a way to make other players around them better than they really were. Kobe does not do that. Does that make sense Prime? Like I said before, I respect you and have always liked your posts, in this case , we disagree.

 

[tickletoy3]

tickletoy, i understand the economics of basketball, but again, it comes down to principle. i dont give a damn about an employee if he is going to treat me like dirt. to hell with him....if i pay him, how does that make me look? if i paid him what he wanted, what would motivate him? if i am going to pay 30 million dollars a year, i want a SUBSTANTIAL return and some motivation from him. he wasnt giving it, so i would refuse to pay him. again, he is not the SOLE reason why the Lakers have championships. i think Phil, Kobe and the rest of the crew also played a MAJOR part in it. Shaq even went on to say this year's Heat team was the best team he has ever played for. so those Laker championship teams were nothing but a memory huh. to hell with Fat Boy. i will truly enjoy watching him lose his skills and become one big fat problem. enjoy him Heat, because he is way past his prime......

OF COURSE Shaq said this year's Heat team was the best. Would you expect him to say otherwise? What's he supposed to say? "Duuh geee.. yeh da Heat are good and all but boy those Lakers were just the most awesome team I've ever been associated with?" Get real.

So getting your team to the playoffs every year isn't substantial? He didn't return anything?? Hello?? Of course being a Shaq hater you don't bother with stats that PROVE a player's worth - but did you even bother to look at Shaq's playoff stats?? I believe I've already shown PROVEN stats that say Shaq was the ONLY LAKER to show up in last year's finals. His stats PROVE it. Shaq is NOT a one man team. Anyone who knows anything about sports knows this. Shaq can't win games all by himself - no player can. If those other great players, including Kobe, would bother maybe the Lakers would have had half a chance. But no, Shaq plays his tail off with no help and they lose. Yeh, get rid of him. That makes sense.

He's so fat, overweight, unmotivated and lazy he can outplay any member of my team when the games count most. His stats prove it. Last year's finals he was the only one of the team that showed up. But eh, what the hey.. let's get rid of the guy. Let's keep the guy who gets involved in rape cases and gives the entire NBA a "black eye".. yeh, that's the ticket..

As far as Kobe being "hated".. lemme see.. McDonald's dumped him.. Sprite dumped him.. why don't you call the reps from these major corporations and ask them why?? One might say it was because he 'cheated'.. but so? As you have pointed out so did Jordan and Magic and I still see their mugs plastered all over endorsements. So that can't be it.. hmmm..

But if major corporations won't touch him with a stick.. oh yeh.. maybe it's because he "alledgedly" RAPED a girl??? Innocence or guilt is not the issue here. It's just the fact he was even associated with the act that turns people against him. Rape is a cowardly, cruel, selfish, total violation of another individual.. so why even involve yourself with the possibility of a crime trial?? Why even put yourself in such a stupid, totally boneheaded position to begin with??

And one might say she was a 'slut', 'golddigger', whatever. Yup and she's the only one ever to ever approach a pro athlete and be after his money. Now that has NEVER happened to any other athlete in the history of sports.. right? I mean, afterall it's not like they have a class for pro athletes to attend to actually warm them of individuals that are after a quick buck and how to avoid such nonsense. Right.

You're telling me KOBE was that friggin' stupid to even associate himself with someone like that???? News flash: KOBE WAS MARRIED AT THE TIME. Kobe is really, honestly THAT friggin' stupid?? But hey, he comes to camp in shape, right?

And before I hear "what does Kobe cheating have to do with basketball?" Ok, if I have to spell it out for you here goes.. Kobe (1) disrespected his team, (2) distracted the team during the season, (3) disrespected management and the NBA in general by being associated with a RAPE trial. It's not a matter of innocence or guilt.. the man was INVOLVED WITH A RAPE TRIAL.

I don't recall tabloid headlines reading "Magic's accuser speaks!" or "Rape Jordan?" Do you still honestly wonder why people dislike Kobe?? This was just further fuel to the fire. Lots of people thought he had a selfish attitude all along.

Hmm.. let me see.. my son can be a little big for his size and model himself after one of the greatest centers in NBA history .. ooor.. he can model himself after someone who goes to trial for rape, but can hit free throws.. hmm.. tough choice there.. oh wait, at least he will appear in court in shape, right? The world didn't hate Kobe overnight. This just gave them further reason to dislike the guy.

But yeh, you're right.. let's dump Shaq. Heck, he came to camp out of shape.. now that's disrespect! And he said some bad things about management too!! Potty mouth! That's worse than rape!! oh wait.. bad example. It's not like he showed total disrespect to the NBA, it's not like he totally distracted his team for most of the season for going on trial.. heck no! He showed up to camp after gaining a few more pounds and has an arrogant attitude after.. oh I don't know.. leading EVERY TEAM he has played for to the playoffs?? And during the Bulls glory years, being the player number 2 in scoring AND rebounding behind Jordan and Rodman (which are by the way TWO players??) Yet this ONE MAN can give you that much in two separate categories?? Why on earth would that give anyone an attitude of being a great player?? .. Now THAT'S disrespect!!! I say we burn him at the stake and pull out his liver!

Sponsors?.. Shaq has Nestle, Pepsi, Shaq shoes, Shaq basketballs, Shaq toys, Shaq jerseys, etc., etc.,. Networks pay HUGE bucks to cover his comments, interviews, games, etc.. Shaq TRIPLES his owner's income, brings income to the city he plays for, makes money for the game of basketball.. he gets his teams to the playoffs, plays his butt off in the playoffs..

Kobe can't even keep an endorsement or get a sponsor. But he comes to camp in shape right?

Hmm.. now which role model would I choose for my son?? Hmmm..

Oh yeh, let's get rid of Shaq.. let him go alledgely rape a girl.. that's the ticket.. THEN he can be a Laker!

Shaq wants more money? So what? When you've done in a career what's he done, don't you DESERVE more money?? Besides, I thought ALL players wanted more money! As a ROOKIE, one of the Lakers even said he wanted to be the highest paid player on the team.. and Shaq's the bad guy when it comes to money??

Let me ask this.. When was the last time Shaq didn't help his team make the playoffs??? If he got my team there - which he did every year in LA, and then played his butt off while in the playoffs (something the rest of my team didn't bother with).. I don't think I would complain too much. Especially if he was tripling my income, keeping the fans happy and making the league, the city, and the sport money.

Shaq played his ass off in the playoffs in his final year for the Lakers. No one else bothered to show up. The Lakers 'thank' him by not paying him. Yeh, I think I would leave town too Shaq. It's not like you always helped them make the playoffs, played your ass off when you got there, helped win world titles.. nah, you came to camp a little chunky. Totally unacceptable. Sorry Shaq. No sale in LA.

The Lakers need the money for crime trials during the season anyway. If I played my ass off for an owner, got his team to the playoffs every year, played my ass off once we did get there.. even helped win a few WORLD TITLES for him and then they treated me like dog spit for it?? Laker management acts like Shaq had nothing to do with world titles. He's just a loud, egotistical, disrespectful blub of lard who never exercises and can't hit free throws. Do you really wonder why Shaq disrespects the Lakers and LA management?? It's a miracle he didn't demand to leave years ago. I couldn't work for anyone like that either.

You can take it to the bank and count it good as gold. If Shaq had stayed with the Lakers and would have had a healthy team.. put money on it.. the Lakers would have made the playoffs. Guaranteed. That fat, lazy, unmotivated center and Kobe together would have been enough to get them there. Regardless of the team turn-over, regardless of the coach. Guaranteed playoffs.

Shaq is a proven franchise. He helps teams make the playoffs. Notice I said he helps them get there - I didn't say he does it alone. Note too that Shaq played with a whole new team, all new teammates, a new coach, and a totally new system. Yet - despite all those obstacles he helped lead his team to the playoffs yet again.

Guess he put his time to better use than cheating on his wife, disrespecting the league and his teammates, dealing with rape trials and throwing millions in potential revenue down the toilet. Maybe he just wasn't motivated enough for that.

 

[primetime]

ticklingfeet4fu, yes, we disagree. if you watch a LOT of Laker games during the Shaq-Phil-Kobe era, you would notice in crunch time, the other Lakers would give Kobe the ball with little left on the shot clock and expect him to bail them out. whenever the Lakers played for the last shot, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, whoever, would immediately pass the ball to Bryant once they got to the half court. then they would all stand outside the 3 point arc, isolating Kobe to do his thing. Phil Jackson draws up the play in the huddle to go to Kobe. now, contrary to popular belief, Kobe does pass the ball in critical situations. for example, people forget that in game 3 of the 2002 playoffs in the 1st round (when the 1st round was best of 5), Kobe was one on one with the self proclaimed "Kobe-stopper" Ruben Patterson. Lakers down by two, time running out. now, if Kobe was truly selfish, this would be a moment for him to show just how selfish he is. Patterson was running his mouth in the paper all the live long day about how he can stop Kobe and Kobe knows he can. Kobe drives towards Patterson, BUT he decides to dish the ball to a wide open Horry in the corner, Horry does his usual thing and sinks the game winning 3 pointer to win the game. i know this is one instance, but that was a PERFECT opportunity for Kobe Bryant to be selfish and he didnt. but no one ever remembers that play.

another case in point. during the 2003-2004 season, the Lakers played the Sac Kings. in the first half, facing constant triple teams, Kobe Bryant had two, that's right, TWO shot attempts in the first half as he was trying to get his teammates involved. two shot attempts? but what did the media say? "Kobe was trying to throw the game to show the Lakers what life would be like without him!!!" Kobe decides to be "Mr. i will get my teammates involved", and he accused of throwing a game? Kobe Bryant cant win! no matter what he does, no matter if he leads the league in scoring and assists, the media and zealous fans will always claim he is selfish. as a Laker fan, i am quite agitated that people (mainly the media) bash Kobe so much and there really is no specific reason as to why. the man just cant win.....

tickletoy, let me ask you something. do you watch a lot of Laker games and/or live in LA? your whole post indicates to me that you dont. are you kidding me? Shaq plays his ass off? what game were you watching? Shaq shows up and plays hard eevry once in a while. again, do you think it was ONLY Laker management that called Shaq fat and lazy? where do you think it came from? any observer of Shaq's play during the regular season and the playoffs (except the NBA finals) can see he doesnt give 100% everytime. i am actually shocked and dismayed that you actually believe Shaq gives 100% effort everytime. the man HIMSELF during the regular season even admits he is "resting" for the playoffs. did you see Shaq's performance during the 2003 and 2004 playoffs? i HARDLY call that 100% effort. there were occassions where he did show effort, but there was NO WAY IN HELL he put forth a dedicated effort in EVERY GAME. what games are you watching? i ask you, WHERE IN THE WORLD did Laker fans come up with the "fat, lazy" argument? we just didnt start saying that AFTER Shaq left, that was said FOR YEARS!!!!!!! YEARS man YEARS!!!!

as for the NBA finals, my goodness, Larry Brown even SAID SO on Detroit's strategy, the SAME EXACT STRATEGY he used on the Heat THIS YEAR. single cover Shaq, stop everyone else. when was the last time a team PURPOSELY single covered Shaq to stop everyone else? Shaq is soooooo dominant and unstoppable, he COMMANDS double teams. now why would an ol' wily veteran coach single cover Shaq? again, he used the EXACT SAME STRATEGY against the Heat and what do you get? another Shaquille Oneal team LOSES to the Pistons. Heat or Lakers. it didnt matter. you cant really use your argument of "Shaq played his ass off...." against Detroit. he is used to facing constant double teams. looks like Larry Brown wasnt concerned about "Mr. Dominant" now was he? ever wonder why?

as for Kobe Bryant's "decision" to cheat on his wife. yes, it was deplorable. i was pissed off as hell that Kobe cheated on his wife. out of all the women in the world to cheat with, Kobe picks a surefire psychopath. now, you are kidding yourself if you think Kobe Bryant is the only NBA player that cheated on his wife. the difference between Kobe and the rest of the cheaters is that Kobe's psychopath cried rape, even though evidence showed she was lying her ass off. Laker management should back Kobe in a trial that he was innocent of. oh, he's guilty as hell in terms of cheating on his wife, but he didnt rape that girl. there's a fundamental difference between rape and just cheating. neither are acceptable and neither is better than the other, but their meanings are completely different.

it's funny how you say "how can you put yourself in that position?" true, very true. but why is it with Kobe Bryant that it seems much more worse? again, Michael Jordan cheated on his wife, and the possibility of that woman claiming "rape" was very real. Jordan was lucky, Kobe wasnt. so, because Jordan wasnt accused of rape, that makes his cheating okay huh? where's the criticism of Jordan's decision considering he is one of the most recognizable athletes in the entire world and his decision could have cost him everything? where's the criticism of Magic Johnson who admitted he cheated on his wife and his doing so, he ended up HIV positive? you dont think Magic's decision was just as terrible as Kobe's? it could have cost him his life. but that doesnt matter as it's Magic Johnson! Jordan, Magic and countless others can cheat on their wives, but as long as they dont claim "rape", it's okay. it's just a little indescretion right? you cant have it both ways. i want to see people blast Jordan and Magic like they bash Kobe for cheating on his wife. that is fair isnt it? but of course not, as people didnt like Kobe and the rape trial only furthered the hate and criticism.

as for Shaq leading every team he's played for to the playoffs. except for Orlando, both the Lakers AND the Heat were PLAYOFF teams before he got to each respective team. the Heat would still have made the playoffs without Shaq this year. hello? they made it last year and they were forming a good nucleus with Odom and Wade. Shaq made them much better, but it's not like he took a team that was in dire straits and turned them around. same with the Lakers. i do recall the Lakers making the playoffs before Shaq got there. even when he was there the Lakers didnt win a damn thing until Phil got there. is Shaq a valuable commodity? yes. would the Lakers still like to have him? yes, under a few conditions. 1) show some kind of motivation and 2) accept a smaller salary than 30 million a year. now ask yourself. if Shaq was traded to the Atlanta Hawks, do they make the Eastern Conference finals? HELL NO. they would be lucky to even make the playoffs. Shaq is a smart guy. he told Laker management that he didnt want to go to a crappy team. he wanted to go to a contender. the Heat were playoff contenders. remember, Shaq gave conditions on how he should be traded otherwise he would just "sit out" a year.

now let me get this straight, tickletoy. you would pay an athlete an obscene amount of money, even if he badmouths you and he doesnt even have the motivation to work hard? are you so blinded by Shaq that you would basically give him your franchise? for what? if i had a choice to give my franchise to someone, it would be Jordan. there is no way in hell i would let Shaq dictate terms to me if he's slacking and disrespecting me. that is why i compare him to Jordan so much in this thread. Shaq is asking for Jordan type money but there is a HUGE difference in the two. if you had a choice, would you rather give 30 million dollars a year to Jordan or to Shaq? Jordan deserves the money. Shaq doesnt. now i wouldnt pay Shaq peanuts, but there is no way in hell i would elevate his salary to Jordan status. not with the attitude he has. NEVER.

why am i comparing Shaq to Jordan? first of all, this thread is supposed to be about Shaq. my focus isnt Kobe Bryant. he is not the reason why Shaq left. you keep throwing out these stats about how Shaq is a proven winner compared to Kobe, but let's compare these numbers to a man that EVERYONE recognizes as one of, if not, THE best NBA players ever. does Shaq measure up to Jordan? NOT EVEN CLOSE. so why should he get paid like Jordan? answer me that..........

 

[tickletoy3]

tickletoy, let me ask you something. do you watch a lot of Laker games and/or live in LA? your whole post indicates to me that you dont. are you kidding me? Shaq plays his ass off? what game were you watching?

Umm.. the NBA Finals vs Detroit. You know, the series where Shaq was the only Laker to show up. Just last year? Didn't you watch the Finals? Yeh, that one.

the man HIMSELF during the regular season even admits he is "resting" for the playoffs.

So what? How many times have you seen players rest because the division has been already won? 82 games is a LOT of games and can take their toll on a player who is double and triple teamed every single night. Would you rather risk injury at that point? I think his own teammates would rather have a healthy Shaq than an injured Shaq - especially with the playoffs just around the corner. Just ask Miami about that eh? No player in any sport plays every game like it's the world title at stake. Even Jordan himself has "rested" during the season. Get real.

i ask you, WHERE IN THE WORLD did Laker fans come up with the "fat, lazy" argument? we just didnt start saying that AFTER Shaq left, that was said FOR YEARS!!!!!!! YEARS man YEARS!!!!

And during those "years" were not the Lakers winning world titles??? Funny thing no one complained about that part.

again, he used the EXACT SAME STRATEGY against the Heat and what do you get? another Shaquille Oneal team LOSES to the Pistons. Heat or Lakers. it didnt matter.

Anyone who watches basketball knows if Shaq and Wade had both been injury free the series would more than likely have had a different outcome. Funny thing Detroit and that 'strategy' were losing until Wade got hurt huh? Add that to Shaq not being a 100% and what do you get? Yep a Heat loss. No surprise there.

you cant really use your argument of "Shaq played his ass off...." against Detroit. he is used to facing constant double teams. looks like Larry Brown wasnt concerned about "Mr. Dominant" now was he? ever wonder why?

Haven't you ever heard of the "Jordan Rules"? Seems to me the Celtics weren't concerned with MJ either. Didn't matter that Michael scored bucket after bucket that night. Who won the game? It's called strategy. But oh yeh, where was "Mr Dominant" that night? What you are basically saying is "if Jordan was so 'dominant' why didn't the Bulls win that night?" Please come up with something better next time.

As far as Shaq goes, that wasn't an argument, that was fact. If Shaq had any help at all the Lakers would have at least been in contention in the finals against Detroit. Even after this year, after Miami lost to Detroit, Larry Brown said himself the loss "wasn't Shaq's fault". So what does that say? Again, the team around him caused defeat because they (like the Lakers last year) simply didn't perform.

Seems to me like I heard countless opinions that Wade's injury and yes, his gameplay that night was a huge contributor to the Heat's loss in game 7. Where do you think this came from?? Let's get real. Wade tanked in game 7. He's a great player and will have lots and lots of great games ahead of him. If it wasn't for Wade there would have been no game 7. But for that one night, that one time, he was just too injured to play at his best and sadly Wade tanked. Plain and simple. "It wasn't Shaq's fault." What does that say? It says no one else showed up that night. That's not my statement, it's Larry Brown's. But once again, Shaq is the bad guy. And you say Kobe can't win?

the difference between Kobe and the rest of the cheaters is that Kobe's psychopath cried rape, even though evidence showed she was lying her ass off. Laker management should back Kobe in a trial that he was innocent of. oh, he's guilty as hell in terms of cheating on his wife, but he didnt rape that girl.

I'm actually convinced Kobe could sell you a bridge in Brooklyn. How do we know that he didn't rape that woman?? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Mike Tyson swore he never commited rape either. Looks like he actually got caught. What shocks me most about Kobe is the fact he would even put himself in such a position to begin with.

there's a fundamental difference between rape and just cheating. neither are acceptable and neither is better than the other, but their meanings are completely different.

Rape is a violent, selfish, cowardly violation of another person. Rape is a crime. Cheating means both parties agree and simply means you have no moral or religious principles at the time. You won't serve time for cheating. For Rape you go to prison. Big difference. Jordan and Magic weren't facing prison sentences for what they did because both parties agreed. Kobe alledgedly commited an act against another person where there was no agreement. Again, huge difference.

it's funny how you say "how can you put yourself in that position?" true, very true. but why is it with Kobe Bryant that it seems much more worse? again, Michael Jordan cheated on his wife, and the possibility of that woman claiming "rape" was very real. Jordan was lucky, Kobe wasnt.

Jordan never commited rape or forced himself on anyone or gave cause for anyone to think he ever did. Kobe did. Simple as that. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. Think about it. Kobe and the girl are the only two who knows for sure what really happened that night. In any case, it was far more than simply 'cheating'.

so, because Jordan wasnt accused of rape, that makes his cheating okay huh?

Show me one quote where I ever said cheating was ok? Cheating is NOT ok, it's just not a crime. Kobe was in a criminal case because a crime had possibly been commited. Jordan and Magic didn't put themselves in that kind of mess. They cheated and that's morally and religiously wrong, but they didn't force themselves on another woman who said "no".

Jordan, Magic and countless others can cheat on their wives, but as long as they dont claim "rape", it's okay. it's just a little indescretion right? you cant have it both ways. i want to see people blast Jordan and Magic like they bash Kobe for cheating on his wife. that is fair isnt it? but of course not, as people didnt like Kobe and the rape trial only furthered the hate and criticism.

Who wants it both ways? If it were me, I wouldn't want either. Both acts are morally and religiously wrong. Magic and Jordan never commited a possible rape. Cheating is NOT ok, but no crime had been commited.

as for Shaq leading every team he's played for to the playoffs. except for Orlando, both the Lakers AND the Heat were PLAYOFF teams before he got to each respective team. the Heat would still have made the playoffs without Shaq this year. hello? they made it last year and they were forming a good nucleus with Odom and Wade. Shaq made them much better, but it's not like he took a team that was in dire straits and turned them around. same with the Lakers. i do recall the Lakers making the playoffs before Shaq got there. even when he was there the Lakers didnt win a damn thing until Phil got there. is Shaq a valuable commodity? yes. would the Lakers still like to have him? yes, under a few conditions. 1) show some kind of motivation and 2) accept a smaller salary than 30 million a year.

The Lakers have made the playoffs for years and years. They won world titles when Shaq was in diapers. I would love to see Shaq still in LA, but that's not going to happen. Is 30 mil too much to ask for the most dominant center in the game today? That's individual opinion. Motivation? Playoffs every year and world titles appear from thin air I guess. Oh yeh, forgot. Shaq had nothing to do with that right? It was all Phil and Kobe and every other guy who came to camp in shape and can hit free throws. Shaq is sooo unmotivated. He was just some big blob bouncing up and down the court while the Lakers were winning world championships. All of his rebounds, blocked shots, field goal percentage, pts per game.. eh, that had nothing to do with winning world titles. Heck, the man can't hit a free throw, right? During the Bulls glory years Shaq was number 2 in scoring (behind Jordan) and number 2 in rebounds (behind Rodman). One man alone produced that much.. and every team he has been associated with has made the playoffs.. he was listed as one of the most dominant players in NBA history. But eh, you're right.. why would anyone who has all that in a career deserve more money?

now let me get this straight, tickletoy. you would pay an athlete an obscene amount of money, even if he badmouths you and he doesnt even have the motivation to work hard? are you so blinded by Shaq that you would basically give him your franchise? for what?

When Shaq was in LA.. how many times did LA make the playoffs? How many times did they not only make it, but actually win it?? Shaq badmouths LA because he helped bring them world titles, yet they cry about the shape he's in. He helped bring them world titles, yet they complain he can't hit free throws. Umm.. isn't the goal of any sports organization to win world titles???

It's not how pretty the bridge looks.. what matters is if it will get you to the other side. Shaq always got LA to the other side. But I guess world titles appear out of thin air.

Shaq gets paid like Jordan because (1) He is the most dominant player at his position. (2) Every team he plays with makes the playoffs (3) To get to the NBA Finals you will either (a) play against Shaq or (b) play against his team to get there. (4) Think about inflation. How long has Jordan been retired? If MJ was still playing today his salary would be triple Shaq's. That's simple economics. (5) Shaq is one of a few players today that are truly a "franchise". Owners will pay Shaq huge bucks because he will ALWAYS return it to the team through reasons I've discussed in several posts.

Why did McDonald's dump Kobe? Why did Sprite? Why do major corporations and sponsors not want to touch the guy with a 10 foot pole? He can hit free throws and he comes to camp in shape!!. So pleeease.. Somebody please answer me Why??? . I'm curious.

 

[primetime]

yep, just as i thought. you have absolutely NO CLUE on the Lakers. you only see bits and pieces on what goes on during the season. tickletoy, my goodness man, i live in the LA area. that means i am privy to Laker news a lot more than you. unless you watch LA television and read LA media ALL the time in Australia, then you dont have a clue. case in point:

i asked you if you watch a LOT of Laker games and your response was....

Umm.. the NBA Finals vs Detroit. You know, the series where Shaq was the only Laker to show up. Just last year? Didn't you watch the Finals? Yeh, that one.

um, hello, that was FIVE games. do FIVE games tell the story of a season? NO. did you watch a lot of regular season games? did you read or watch a LOT of the interviews DURING the regular season and the playoff rounds BEFORE the NBA finals. do they even have the playoff rounds in Australia. or do you only watch the NBA Finals and maybe a handful of games? because if you ACTUALLY FOLLOWED THE LAKER team throughout the course of Shaq's career, you damn sure wouldnt be making these assesements about him. remember my quote "i ask you, WHERE IN THE WORLD did Laker fans come up with the "fat, lazy" argument? we just didnt start saying that AFTER Shaq left, that was said FOR YEARS!!!!!!! YEARS man YEARS!!!!" what was your response?.......

And during those "years" were not the Lakers winning world titles??? Funny thing no one complained about that part"...

again, i now know you have no clue on what the Lakers were doing during Shaq's tenure. it was ALL OVER the media during those "championship" years. it damn sure was ALL OVER the media in 2003 and 2004. it was ALL OVER the media when Shaq decided to have toe surgery during the beginning of the 2002-2003 season, INSTEAD OF THE OFFSEASON after they won the title in 2002. why? because he got hurt on company time and he was going to have surgery on company time, not HIS time. SHAQ said this HIMSELF. what happened that year? the Lakers started poorly (11-19 heading into the Xmas day showdown against Sacramento) and had to exert extra energy just to make the playoffs that year. where's this leadership quality in Shaq? he put his team at RISK of missing the playoffs because he didnt want to get surgery on HIS time.

you really dont have a clue about the Lakers do you? you arent showing good basketball sense either. let's see, the Heat and Lakers both lose to Detroit but it's never Shaq's fault. it's Kobe's fault, it's Wade's fault and everyone elses but Shaq. well let's see, in game 6 with NO WADE at all, what did Shaq's team do since he was busting his ass off? they got blownout!!! how come Shaq couldnt carry them to victory? oh i get it, it isnt Shaq's "fault". it never is now is it?

HELL NO Shaq doesnt deserve 30 million dollars a year. he is NOWHERE NEAR the level of Jordan and he NEVER will. you watch a handful of games and you think Shaq is this hard working guy? dude, you REALLY REALLY need to get a clue. that's why i tell people to get the WHOLE picture. no wonder you cant see that Shaq is indeed not worth 30 million dollars a year. Shaq's favorite people, the media, even talked about his "decline" in the 2003 playoffs and how immobile and out of shape he looked. you really dont know do you? why do you think people made a big deal out of how good he look in terms of being in shape this year? if Shaq was always working hard and in shape, like you believe, then no one would even comment on his shape heading into last season. did you even bother to read Jerry Buss' comments? he said if Shaq had been that motivated to come into camp in shape then he would still be a Laker. where did you think that comment came from? out of nowhere? man, GET A FREAKING CLUE! just admit that you are a CASUAL fan and really dont follow it EVERY DAY like TRUE Laker fans do. that's the problem with people when they discuss sports. they come up with things based on a little bit of information, then run into someone that knows a LOT. like this whole thread.

now, about Kobe. soooo, because Kobe didnt pay off the girl like Jordan and Magic did, Kobe is the villian? and back at you. you wrote...."I'm actually convinced Kobe could sell you a bridge in Brooklyn. How do we know that he didn't rape that woman?? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.". you are right, we dont know. but then how can you make this statement?

"Jordan never commited rape or forced himself on anyone or gave cause for anyone to think he ever did."

now i ask you, how do you know Jordan didnt force himself on someone? the man is bloody rich. paying off someone for their silence wouldnt be difficult for him now would it? you cant say Jordan never did, just like you cant say Kobe raped the girl. the evidence presented shows that girl was lying her ass off. there was no evidence that showed he did try to rape her except her word, which has been shown that she is a proven liar. but that doesnt seem to matter does it? Kobe can be evil and wrong, but not Jordan. yet, Jordan cheated on his wife and no one seems to care. again i ask, is that fair?

tickletoy, when you decide to follow basketball a little more closely, let me know. now, here is my position on Shaq's tenure with the Lakers. Shaq helped the Lakers win a title. but without Kobe, Phil and the rest of the cast, he wins nothing. the Lakers won titles before Shaq and will win titles AFTER Shaq. this guy showed motivation in ONE championship season. the first one. after that and again, if you actually followed the Lakers, he lost that motivation until it was the NBA finals. by the way, Shaq wasnt "resting" for the playoffs in April. he was "resting" for the playoffs in JANUARY. he has made MANY comments about that during his Laker tenure. again, if you actually followed the Lakers you would know this.

so, did you or did you not follow the Lakers CLOSELY during ALL 8 years of Shaq's tenure? be honest......

 

[tickletoy3]

When you decide to actually read my posts THOROUGHLY I might actually decide to respond.

But to make a few points..

Where I am from has no impact whatsover on this post. We are discussing Kobe/Shaq and their contributions - NOT where I am from. Got it?

Secondly, "It's not Shaq's fault" was a DIRECT quote from LARRY BROWN himself. Oh I get it. Lemme see.. Larry Brown says it, ESPN says it, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX and every sports network coverage all over the world says it.. but oh no.. it can't be true! It IS Shaq's fault!! An NBA World Champion coach, every sports analysts and network says it.. but it must be total nonsense. I forget. They don't live in LA, get all the 'inside scoops' that you do, don't know nearly as much about the sport as you do.. they are all idiots. Right? Gee Primetime, you should have your own sports network.. The Kobe Channel? Then it would always be the right story!! Yeh, that's the ticket!

Wade DID tank in game 7. Please RE-READ my post.. since you obviously didn't get it.

If you honestly believe Magic and/or Jordan paid anyone off you really are totally blind, deaf and stupid my friend. If ANY athlete of ANY sport of their magnitude even so much as TRIED to pay anyone off.. every gong, bell and whistle from Seattle to Miami would have went off and it would have been plastered all over every channel, every station, every newspaper and the internet in seconds!! Just ask Michael Jackson how that works.

And again I pose my questions one more time.. just praying for an answer.. Why is it no major corporation or sponsor will have anything to do with Kobe? He can hit free throws, right? He comes to camp in shape, right? Then why?? Pleease tell me, somebody.. anybody??? McDonald's dumped him like day old fries and Sprite dumped him like new Coke.

And one more time.. during all those "years" of Shaq complaints how come no one complained about winning the world title???

You don't have to be from LA to know sports, like sports or be smart enough and broad minded enough to understand comments, quotes and stats from sports. Primetime, buddy, the world doesn't revolve around LA.. there is a world out there, ok? You should get out more and read more thoroughly and carefully.

 

[primetime]

i have read your posts thoroughly and i have come to the conclusion that you are a "casual" fan. there's a reason why i asked if you followed the Lakers CLOSELY during the Shaq era, all EIGHT years. how in the world can you argue my SPECIFIC points about Shaq if you didnt closely follow it. sorry, ESPN doesnt cover the Lakers as much as the LA media would. if you were a diehard Laker fan and you followed closely, a lot of the stuff you say about Shaq wouldnt hold water. you wouldnt even say it. i know the world doesnt revolve around LA, but c'mon man, this is about Los Angeles! really, how can you even make the comment "where was this complaining when the Lakers were winning titles?" is silly because we WERE COMPLAINING when the Lakers were winning titles.

unless you followed the team closely, there's nothing you can do to argue my points. you can argue BASIC stuff, like the regular national media would cover, but man, when there gets to be more specific stuff that the LA fans are more privy to, then you cant dispute my points about those. the Kobe rape trial, sure you can argue that as it was international news, not just LA media. but during the regular season, unless you are a diehard, you will never know all the other crap about the Lakers. you cant, you're not in LA. you cant base your argument on FIVE games. notice my argument always covered YEARS of stuff. you know how much crap goes on in the regular season? you know how many articles are printed every day for a NBA team? what you get on the national level will be limited. you wont see everyday articles on Shaq in the national media, but you will in Miami. GET REAL man, dont come at me if you dont know EVERYTHING that went on here in LA.

as for Larry Brown and his comment "it wasnt Shaq's fault..". NO ONE EVER BLAMES SHAQ for losses, INCLUDING when he misses those critical free throws. isnt it amazing that as much as the media blasted Kobe as being selfish and the rest of the Lakers choking in the clutch, here comes the Miami Heat. Dwyane Wade was the ANTI-KOBE and he knows how to pass the ball to Shaq. guess what? in Game 7, playing with an injury, the media called him SELFISH. he needs to pass the ball more! he didnt get his teammates involved. etc, etc etc.... i thought Wade was ANTI-KOBE. why is Wade getting the same EXACT comments they gave Kobe? i find it amazing....

now, again about Brown's comment. did you or did you NOT understand what Brown's strategy was? SINGE COVER Shaq (which would mean lots of points for Shaq) and S-T-O-P EVERYONE ELSE. like you said, one guy cant win a game, which would explain why the Lakers and Heat fell to Detroit. the Detroit Pistons, a DAMN good defensive team FOCUSED their efforts NOT on stopping Shaq, but STOPPING EVERYONE ELSE. no wonder no one else did anything. how could they if the focal point was for them to be stopped. do you understand that now? my goodness, simple logic.

now if you really believe that athletes dont pay people to shut up, then you are in the dark. the ONLY way we would know if Jordan paid someone is if someone said something. but you wont because they were PAID to shut up. you think NBA players announce to the media they paid someone? use your head.

as for corporations not sponsering Kobe. they only did it when he was accused of rape. otherwise, they would still sponser him. just wait a few years, Kobe will get his sponsers back. but again, if some woman accused Jordan of rape, POOF! there goes his sponserships.

c'mon man, you can talk about Shaq and Kobe, but when i get into certain topics about what happened in LA, you cant refute my claims. you cant make silly arguments such as "where was the complaining before?" it HAPPENED. if you lived in LA, you would KNOW this. i also asked if you watched Laker games BESIDES the NBA finals. you want to know why? well, you said that Shaq plays his ass off and we claim he's lazy. but if you havent seen the Lakers during the regular season and ALL of the playoffs, how can you possibley make that statement? if you want to come at me, then you better have your facts straight. otherwise, stay on the generic topics of Shaq and Kobe. dont get into specific stuff that if you actually FOLLOWED the Lakers, you would NEVER make.

(by the way, i hope you enjoy your part in my wrestling series. it's posted in the story section and my archive section....hope you like the story! talk to you later...)

 

[tickletoy3]

I know what you mean Primetime about local media telling and seeing everything. I lived in Denver for a few years and all you read about in the paper or saw on the evening news was something about the Broncos. Funny thing is, I did like the Broncos before all of that. It just became too much and when there I actually hated the Broncos and hoped they would lose each week because of it.

It was ridiculous! They would even tell what John Elway's kids did for Halloween. Like who cares??!! That's how obsessive they were. Elway blasted them a few times about invading his family. He said he was a pro athlete and it came with the territory with him, but leave his family out of it and out of the news. I don't blame him.

So I can totally relate about what you are saying about the difference between "local" media reports, etc. and national media.

I will admit this too.. Shaq HAS gotten lazy the last couple years. That's just fact. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy and you know that. I've always been a Shaq fan. BUT, the last couple years he seems to be going downhill. I think it's a combination of things. He is getting older and some of it is, yeh, he's just lazy to a fault. Shaq is not the player he was even five years ago. I was a HUGE Shaq fan when he first came into the NBA. I still am, but I just call it like I see it. You are absolutely right. With Shaq, it has become all about money.

Shaq is a "franchise". He knows it. He's just living off the money now. He's still a great player and he wants to win, don't get me wrong. But, I don't think he cares about the game like he used to and his play is showing it. Right after LSU when he was in Orlando, he was a monster under the bucket. EVERYONE knew it. Now, just as you have pointed out, he just simply isn't that dominant anymore. Age is just catching up with him. It happens to every athlete. He has reached the stage where he doesn't pose the threat he once did. Hence, Larry Brown's strategy. It's not really a fault on Shaq, it's just a fact of life.

I wish Shaq would return to LA simply so he could close out of his career with the team he won the trophy with. I think every player wants to have that, but unfortunately most are with other teams because they have just gotten old and refused to retire (example Jerry Rice).

Shaq is still a great player and I honestly feel that if he were back in LA, the Lakers would again make the playoffs. Shaq and Kobe alone won't beat the great teams, but they would be more than enough for the mid level teams.

I think we both make good points for Shaq and Kobe. If Kobe listens to Phil, he will one day have his day in the sun. Kobe has all the potential in the world. He's still young, definitely has the skills and work ethic, but maybe just needs the right guidance. I think Phil can give him that guidance.

I just don't understand the focus of your anger against Shaq. Is it the money issue? Eh, that's expected. That's why most athletes do the same at the same stage in their careers (Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, even Dan Marino was rumored to be heading to the Vikes before he left). With some it's not really the money, they just don't want to let go of the game. If I were you I would just reflect on the great years Shaq had in LA and the championships they won together. But every fan has the right to their own opinions.

Later my friend.. (now off to read your story)..

 

[primetime]

you know why i am upset at Shaq? because he is not a Laker anymore and he keeps badmouthing the organization. had it been different, had it been Shaq was doing all the right things and Buss traded him just because he was getting older, i would have ripped into Laker management for being idiots. but that's not what happened. i wish the fat, lazy, unmotivated, arrogant, son a gun was still a Laker. i have always said, as long as Kobe and Shaq play together, they will always be in championship contention.

to me, this whole Shaq thing is like a bad divorce. Daddy left and we are left with Mommy, but everyone is blaming Mommy for everything, when Daddy played a major role too. Daddy wasnt innocent. would i like to see Daddy and Mommy get back together? oh hell yeah!

now, also keep in mind that had Kobe left, i would have blasted him too on his loyalty. unless he verbally badmouthed LA when he left, i still wouldnt think he was selfish and arrogant, but i would severely criticize his loyalty gene. but Kobe stayed with the Lakers. i have to give him props on that. as long as Kobe is wearing purple & gold, i will support him, unless he gives me reason not to. again, i am loyal to the Lakers, never a player, unless i can see the management screwed them over.

it's like the Raiders. i realize they were in Oakland first, but i was a huge LA Raiders fan. then they left and BADMOUTHED the city on the way out. now, i will hate the Raiders forever and enjoy every single loss they get. am i a Tampa Bay fan? no, but i like John Gruden and it was BEAUTIFUL watching the Buccaneers destroy the Raiders in that Superbowl. man, talk about being sweet!!! basically, you badmouth my team, i will despise you forever.

now, dont get me wrong, Shaq is a dominant player. even with all of his faults, the man is entertaining and brings smiles to people's faces. if i met him, i wouldnt treat him like crap (he is 7'1" 300+ pounds....), but i would ask him "why?" i wish i could talk to Kobe as well. "why?" why cant you two just shut the hell up and play ball? why demand to be paid a ridiculous amount of money when you havent earned it the right way? no true Laker fan CARED who the "leader" was. all we cared about was those parades! if both of them played for the love of the game (anybody remember that concept?) then none of that crap would have happened. Shaq will go on and get into the basketball Hall Of Fame and he deserves it. but one day Kobe Bryant will also shine. despite all the crap he has put himself in and what people have unfairly said about him, he continues to play. he continues to work hard and he continues to try to win a championship for the people of LA. i NEED Kobe to succeed. he is a Laker. if Kobe fails, the Lakers fail.

on a side note, i think the 49ers should have re-signed Jerry Rice. he is old, but dammit, they have NO ONE ELSE to throw to. what would it have hurt? i hope Mike Nolan knows what he's doing, but i will save that for another thread.

i think this thread is done. it was fun and entertaining and i hope no one "hates" me because of it. when it comes to sports, trash talking and arguing comes with the territory. like i mentioned in an earlier post, i dont have anything personal against people who argued against me, even though it seemed like i did. dammit, this is a tickle forum, we should be having fun. now that we got our "i hate Kobe!" and "i hate Shaq!" words out of the way, let's all shake hands and go about our merry way to another "hot" topic. NFL anyone?