Overdoing Negotiation?

[Redmage]

My playstyle tends to be long on negotiation. I tend to push boundaries a little at a time and up the intensity gradually - sometimes over several play sessions. I've had partners who got a little impatient, in fact, wondering when I was going to take off the kid gloves and play harder.

I've noticed that not everyone does this, and that this isn't necessarily a bad thing. That is, I've seen people move ahead with what looked to me like amazing speed, but it often seems to work.

Then again, it's possible that these folks aren't moving too fast, but that I'm moving too slowly. I'd certainly rather negotiate too much than too little, but "just enough" would be best of all. Is it possible to overdo negotiation? How fast do you like to move in play?

Scott

 

[LindyHopper]

Wow, the longer I think about your question, the more complicated it seems. I suppose it all depends on the situation. For example, if you're introducing someone to a new kink, "go slow" would have to be the rule. But even then, you'd have to push a little, or you'd never get anywhere.

For those of us who are already comfortable with a kink, I think you could push more. For myself, I have to say there's nothing sexier than a dom who's in tune with you enough, during a scene, to know exactly how much he or she can push. I've been on the receiving end of a couple examples of "amazing speed" during a first play session, and gone happily along with things I *never* would have agreed to beforehand. And I wasn't the least bit sorry afterwards. Of course, I'm pretty resilient, as well as comfortable saying "no" in case they overstep, and that's part of what makes the pushing okay. Anyway, there's a saying: "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission." It sounds pretty inconsiderate, but I think it really is true.

Of course, not negotiating is risky, and I've also been on the receiving end of a couple of non-negotiations gone wrong. So... could you just negotiate more things at a time? Before every session, ask "Can I do this? What about this?" and keep going until you get a "no." Then, if a person wants to move quickly, you'd know.

BTW: "Scott?" Really?

 

[Redmage]

I suppose it all depends on the situation. For example, if you're introducing someone to a new kink, "go slow" would have to be the rule. But even then, you'd have to push a little, or you'd never get anywhere.

Yep. I'm actually pretty good at introducing people to new kinks. There, negotiation is necessary and usually welcome, so it meshes well with my basic style.

For those of us who are already comfortable with a kink, I think you could push more. For myself, I have to say there's nothing sexier than a dom who's in tune with you enough, during a scene, to know exactly how much he or she can push.

Perhaps I should go with my instincts more. However...

Anyway, there's a saying: "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission." It sounds pretty inconsiderate, but I think it really is true.

I think that in kink this is potentially a serious mistake. You can get away with small steps over someone's lines, but if you take a big one then things can really get messy. That's the main reason I'm slow - a misstep here seems potentially disastrous.

OTOH many people seem to push right on ahead just fine. So that's what makes me think I may be overcautious. I just can't shake the sense that one mistake is too much in this area.

So... could you just negotiate more things at a time? Before every session, ask "Can I do this? What about this?" and keep going until you get a "no." Then, if a person wants to move quickly, you'd know.

Yes, this isn't a bad idea at all. I think I'll start doing this.

What startles me is people that jump into things with what looks to me like almost no negotiation at all. I saw some of that this past weekend, and it seemed as though it went well, but I can't quite figure out how.

 

[tommytikl]

I agree with LindyHopper, if you are meeting someone that LIKES/LOVES tickling then you can remove the kid gloves pretty quick. But if you are meeting someone not into tickling or new to tickling as a kink then yeah slower is better.
But the lees reactions to your tickling should be what you go on.

This is why I use the RED, YELLOW, GREEN signals for my safe word system.
RED means stop now, I have to pee, the bondage hurts, I REALLY can't breathe, STOP!, Yellow means, hey this is great, just turn down the intensity a bit, or move to another area for a time, GREEN means, what they hell are you waiting for, tickle harder, faster, MORE...who cares if I can't breathe.

This has worked really well for lee's that I have tickled, and this allows for a slow down of tickling instead of a yes/no type of system.

Tickle On,

 

[Redmage]

Thanks, Tommytikl. I use the red/yellow/green safeword system myself. With very new people in things like spanking, I also use a 1 to 10 system - I give my partner a swat, and s/he tells me if that was a 1 ("You hit like a girl!") or a 10 ("Any harder and I'm filing charges!"), or somewhere between.

But suppose Tom starts tickling his wife Alice moe or less out of the blue. OK, fine - they're married, they have some latitude about that kind of thing. But then three or four other people in the room join in to help Tom (or to help Alice!). Alice never said these other folks could tickle her. So why when they hold her down and go for her feet is there not an apocalyptic explosion?

See what I mean?

 

[LindyHopper]

But suppose Tom starts tickling his wife Alice moe or less out of the blue. OK, fine - they're married, they have some latitude about that kind of thing. But then three or four other people in the room join in to help Tom (or to help Alice!). Alice never said these other folks could tickle her. So why when they hold her down and go for her feet is there not an apocalyptic explosion?

Yeah, you might have seen some of that over the weekend. 🙂 But the couples that we're talking about have very open, caring, communicative relationships (I'm half of one, and friends with another). If you know that about a couple, you can use the behavior of the "victim's" partner to let you know what is or isn't okay. So in the above example, if Tom doesn't worry about other people tickling Alice, you figure it's probably fine.

Still, it's a fuzzy line. In a purely hypothetical example (so pardon my verb tenses - I was never very good at grammar), when Alice started tickling Tom on the couch and asked me to join in, I was a little unsure. This was mainly because I know that historically, Tom has been uncomfortable 'leeing, so even though we're friends and I know that he doesn't mind me touching him, I definitely felt better when a DM came over to make sure that the tickling was consensual.

Grrr... that's the problem with a kink that makes people yell "No!" all the time. So confusing! 😕

 

[Redmage]

Yep, those fuzzy lines are definitely the issue here, because I really would rather not cross one. So if for example (as this past weekend) I know almost no one at an event, I'm going to be very leery of jumping into a scene with someone that I haven't even talked it over with, or learned anything about his/her likes and limits.

And yet it does seem to work for some folks. I don't know if they're accidents waiting to happen, or if they know something I don't know.

I do know already that the tickling "scene" (as opposed to private play) does have somewhat different rules from the other kink scenes I'm used to. For example in a regular BDSM playspace you would NOT want to jump into another couple's scene even if you were friends with them, unless they explicitly invited you in or the circumstances were really unusual. It's just not done, and in fact it will get you thrown out of a BDSM party faster than just about anything else.

So that difference takes some getting used to, but even allowing for that some things still surprise me.

Perhaps it's just a matter of people with history together having fewer boundaries, but I think I've seen it happening even with newer people.

Fuzzy lines make my teeth itch.

 

[steph]

Rude, immature and totally nasty. I can watch that crap from my computer at home. Some people need to develop some class and learn the meaning of the term "discretion." (hint:it's how you know you've really become an adult.)
XOXO

But suppose Tom starts tickling his wife Alice moe or less out of the blue. OK, fine - they're married, they have some latitude about that kind of thing. But then three or four other people in the room join in to help Tom (or to help Alice!). Alice never said these other folks could tickle her. So why when they hold her down and go for her feet is there not an apocalyptic explosion?

See what I mean?

 

[Redmage]

Rude, immature and totally nasty. I can watch that crap from my computer at home. Some people need to develop some class and learn the meaning of the term "discretion." (hint:it's how you know you've really become an adult.)

I beg your pardon? What are you referring to?

 

[LindyHopper]

Rude, immature and totally nasty. I can watch that crap from my computer at home. Some people need to develop some class and learn the meaning of the term "discretion." (hint:it's how you know you've really become an adult.)
XOXO

Oh, come on Steph - are you trying to tell us that everyone who's ever tickled you at a gathering did so only with explicit verbal consent from you? I'm skeptical, because in my experience at gatherings, "jumping in" happens all the time. Usually it's among people who know each other, and personally, I'm perfectly fine with Person X assuming that since he's pinned me to the floor and tickled me silly in the past, that it's okay for him to grab my hands and help my husband tickle me silly now.

I haven't seen the rule about asking permission ever being enforced at a gathering: it's considered a courtesy, but I've never seen anyone get in trouble for not asking. So a fair question is: should it be enforced? My personal opinion is no. I think that spontaneity is one of the fun aspects of tickling. If you're at a vanilla party, and one of your friends starts tickling another one, isn't your instinct to jump in and help?

In addition, at least in my experience out here in the west coast, we have really good 'lers. With very few exceptions, they are courteous, sensitive to the 'lee's desires, and understand that "no means no." I think they understand the ramifications of stepping over the line, and do show "discretion" in their behavior. I feel safe with them, regardless of whether or not we have a rule governing formally asking permission.

 

[steph]

I am used to people asking me first~in fact, it's one of my first endearing memories of the night I first had play w/Aqua, the way she climbed up on me and cocked her pretty little head and asked me. I got my revenge when it was her turn to sub by asking her..."Permission to PLAY, lowly slave???" She knew I was just teasing...

Of course, there are exceptions: We know each other already, or the ler and I have had exchanges in the past~email, PMs, phone calls, what have you, and they know I dig them and it's cool.
You should hear some of Dan, Jan, Terry's NEST disrespectful random attacking stories (ugh). Sorry, but I sure as hell don't want some stranger putting their hands all over me unless I know we click first. And there's some other stuff that occasionally goes down at these things that I don't want to see either...

 

[Redmage]

Of course, there are exceptions: We know each other already, or the ler and I have had exchanges in the past~email, PMs, phone calls, what have you, and they know I dig them and it's cool.

What I'm reading from LindyHopper is that this is what was going on in the cases I was thinking of: people who've got some history with each other.

And there's some other stuff that occasionally goes down at these things that I don't want to see either...

Sadly, since I'm not purely a tickler, I might end up doing stuff that you wouldn't want to see.

 

[steph]

 

[Em Es]

I'd rather leave her wanting more

Good question, Redmage. I would rather leave a tickle playmate wanting more than risk pushing her over her limits. Not that I've always practiced what I preach!