• If you would like to get your account Verified, read this thread
  • The TMF is sponsored by Clips4sale - By supporting them, you're supporting us.
  • Reminder - We have a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding content involving minors, regardless of intent. Any content containing minors will result in an immediate ban. If you see any such content, please report it using the "report" button on the bottom left of the post.
  • >>> If you cannot get into your account email me at [email protected] <<<
    Don't forget to include your username

Peace in the Middle East

Biggles of 266

1st Level Red Feather
Joined
Apr 26, 2001
Messages
1,126
Points
36
This is taken directly from Michael Moore, so don't send your gratitude or anger my way. It's written by an American for Americans, hence the use of 'we, us, our' in the text.

Mike's Four Step plan for Peace in the Middle East.

1. Congress should inform Israel that it has thirty days to end the bloodshed perpetrated in its/our name - or we cut off the entire $3 billion in funding. Individual terrorism is bad enough, but state-sponsored terrorism is truly evil. I understand that the world will always have the occasional lone crazy with grievances he feels compelled to avenge with violence. But for the Israelis, a group of otherwise good and intelligent people, to collectively enforce a system of terror against another group simply because of their race or religion is unconscionable. And you and I and millions of other taxpaying Americans put up the money for Israel's unconscionable actions - actions that could not exist if each of us wasn't having 4 cents taken from our paychecks today and every day to buy the bullets that go into the Israeli guns that kill the Palestinian children.

2. If it wants to keep receiving our tax dollars, Israel should be given a year to work out a plan with the Palestinians to creat a nation called Palestine (formed from the West Bank, Gaza, and some strip of land that connects them). This new nation of Palestine must then present a constitution that not only prohibits any form of aggression against Israel but also guarantees full democratic rights to every Palestinian man, woman, and child.

3. The United States will then give Palestine double what it has given Israel in funding (for a permanent peace, I'd gladly give up my portion of this - pennies a week). This is not free cash for corrupt public officials. This is Marshall Plan-style direct aid that builds roads, schools, and industries that provide decent-paying jobs.

4. The United States should then commit to defending Israel against anyone who still wants it destroyed - and vow to to defend a democratic Palestine from its neighbouring Arab regimes (who are going to go bonkers if their own oppressed peoples see how good these Palestinian Arabs have it living in freedom and prosperity).


From an open letter to President Arafat, part of a plan calling for mass civil disobedience:

1. Sit your ass down. That's it. It's simple. You just lay your bodies down - often just a few thousand in the middle of the road will do - and don't move and don't fight back when they try to drag you away. Instead of the Israel always shutting down the borders to Gaza and the West Bank, you shut them down. Just march peacefully up to the checkpoint and then sit down. No Israelis will be able to get to their settlements. No Israelis will be able to transport goods and natural resources from your land into Israel. There is no Israeli vehicle I know of that can drive over mounds of people (not even a pair of snow tires will do the job!). Of course, they may try, and a number of your people may be killed or injured. Still, don't move. Just sit. The world will be watching - especially if you embrace the wonderful world of public relations, and alert the world media to your plans (trust me, CNN will take your call). And you'll end up with far fewer dead Palestinians than you yeild under your current plan.

2. Call a general strike. Refuse to work for the Israelis. Their economy is based on the labour you provide them. Don't do it anymore. Who will do all their sh*t work for them if Palestinians won't? They need you and your willingness to break your backs for them for substandard wages. Watch how quickly a deal is struck once every single Arab refuses to go to work. Of course, they'll try to break you. They will cut off your water, your roads, your food - but you must stand firm. Stockpile, then strike nonviolently, and never give in. They will.


This technique worked for Martin Luther King Jr. His nonviolent movement brought an end to legal segregation in America. It worked for Gandhi - he and his fellow Indians brought the entire British empire to its knees without firing a shot. It worked for Nelson Mandela - he and the ANC brought an end to apartheid.







Is this worth a shot? Of course! I'd gladly have 20 cents taken out of my pay every week to help fund a Palestinian state and protect them and the Israelis from anyone who might want to hurt them. What do you guys think?

Biggles


edit: forgot to check my spelling! I'd hate to look like an eedjit with errors all through it 🙄
 
Biggles of 266 said:
This is taken directly from Michael Moore, so don't send your gratitude or anger my way. It's written by an American for Americans, hence the use of 'we, us, our' in the text.

Mike's Four Step plan for Peace in the Middle East.

1. Congress should inform Israel that it has thirty days to end the bloodshed perpetrated in its/our name - or we cut off the entire $3 billion in funding. Individual terrorism is bad enough, but state-sponsored terrorism is truly evil. I understand that the world will always have the occasional lone crazy with grievances he feels compelled to avenge with violence. But for the Israelis, a group of otherwise good and intelligent people, to collectively enforce a system of terror against another group simply because of their race or religion is unconscionable. And you and I and millions of other taxpaying Americans put up the money for Israel's unconscionable actions - actions that could not exist if each of us wasn't having 4 cents taken from our paychecks today and every day to buy the bullets that go into the Israeli guns that kill the Palestinian children.

2. If it wants to keep receiving our tax dollars, Israel should be given a year to work out a plan with the Palestinians to creat a nation called Palestine (formed from the West Bank, Gaza, and some strip of land that connects them). This new nation of Palestine must then present a constitution that not only prohibits any form of aggression against Israel but also guarantees full democratic rights to every Palestinian man, woman, and child.

3. The United States will then give Palestine double what it has given Israel in funding (for a permanent peace, I'd gladly give up my portion of this - pennies a week). This is not free cash for corrupt public officials. This is Marshall Plan-style direct aid that builds roads, schools, and industries that provide decent-paying jobs.

4. The United States should then commit to defending Israel against anyone who still wants it destroyed - and vow to to defend a democratic Palestine from its neighbouring Arab regimes (who are going to go bonkers if their own oppressed peoples see how good these Palestinian Arabs have it living in freedom and prosperity).

I freely confess that I'm only an armchair spectator in Middle East affairs, but that sounds straightforward and simple to me. I'm sure it'll provoke a lot of anger and hysterics from certain political quarters though.

By the way Biggles, I would worry about speeling or punkchuashun if I were you. No-one else does. 😀
 
I freely confess that I'm only an armchair spectator in Middle East affairs, but that sounds straightforward and simple to me. I'm sure it'll provoke a lot of anger and hysterics from certain political quarters though

Yeah, I know that if I don't get any more replies on this thread then that means that nobody is sufficiently pissed at me to enter a debate 😀
 
Any solution...

Hell, at this point anything that works or stands a chance of working should be looked at! I'm thinking, a giant game of DodgeBall, winner take all!
aussie.gif
Q
 
That's how all conflicts should be settled! Bush vs Hussein, Blair vs Mugabe, me vs my tutor who keeps failing me...
 
Either nobody is sufficiently pissed,or this topic is so worn out by now that few care to indulge in further discussion. Alot of potential posters may be tired of this topic,as it has been brought up several times before in the forums.
 
Biggles of 266 said:
That's how all conflicts should be settled! Bush vs Hussein, Blair vs Mugabe, me vs my tutor who keeps failing me...

And me V all the ticklish females in England who keep hiding from me. I can't understand why they do it, I keep telling that dressing up as the Grim Reaper on Saturday nights is perfectly acceptable...........😛
 
shark said:
Either nobody is sufficiently pissed,or this topic is so worn out by now that few care to indulge in further discussion. Alot of potential posters may be tired of this topic,as it has been brought up several times before in the forums.

There is that too of course. 😀
 
Funny, I can't remember seeing too many threads offering simple solutions to the fighting between Israel and Palestine... All the ones I read were about how bad the fighting is, without offering any ideas.
 
There are no simple solutions to this type of problem,but you could go back in threads however far back and see a host of other posts on this subject.

There will never be any solution to this problem until ALL the parties involved want it.I don't personally see that happening in my lifetime,at least.
 
Excellent post, Biggles!

The situation in the Middle East is just one of the many reasons I'm not religious (not that there's anything wrong with being so). Too many people use religion as an excuse to kill or otherwise harm others (Middle East, Northern Ireland, terrorists, abusive priests, and so on). Mike's plan and that open letter is some of the best stuff I've ever heard on how to bring peace to the Middle East. Biggles, did you find these gems online, in print, or what? 🙂
 
Mike's plan and that open letter is some of the best stuff I've ever heard on how to bring peace to the Middle East. Biggles, did you find these gems online, in print, or what?

I found this one in print, in Mike's book 'Stupid White Men, and other sorry excuses for the state of the nation'.

Your comment on violence in the name of religion reminded me of this story from The Onion:

Universe Ends As God Wakes Up Next To Suzanne Pleshette
CHICAGO—The 15-billion-year-old universe came to a surprise-twist end Friday, when God woke up next to actress Suzanne Pleshette. "What a crazy dream I just had," God said to Pleshette at the conclusion of the popular, long-running universe. "I was the Creator of all things, I had this crazy Son who was always getting arrested and wouldn't get a haircut, and My children were always hurting and killing each other in My name." Pleshette reassured God that He had imagined the whole thing and urged the beleaguered, well-intentioned deity to go back to sleep.
 
So Bob Newhart is God?

No wonder the world is so messed up! :blaugh:
 
I have to agree with Shark and AMK. Religion (not God Himself, but those cretins who claim to preach HIS word) has caused nmore pain, suffering, misery , death, poverty, war, seperation, etc than anything else ever invented by man. (And let's face it, that's what is was designed to do.) I really hope that one day people will realise that you don't need to walk into a church and speak to a vicar to reach the Divine. When people find their own to God, then they'll be a lot happier and the world will be a lot nicer place to live in. Every citizen of the planet can call him by the same name if they want, so long as this "I'm Jewish/Christian and I'm going to slaughter all you Muslim/Hindu bastards!" stops and people wake up and smell what really is cooking.
 
I think any plan is not going to work as long as there are arab leaders in power who want to see Israel destroyed. As long as there are terrorists groups like Hamas, and a whole bunch of other names I can't pronounce or spell there can be no peace. They have to be removed or nothing will ever move forward. There is an assumption here I think that you can make peace with an unreasonable person like Hussein, or Arafat but this I feel is a mistake. They only thing you can do is remove them and hope someone reasonable comes into power and make your peace with them.
 
kurchatovium said:
I think any plan is not going to work as long as there are arab leaders in power who want to see Israel destroyed. As long as there are terrorists groups like Hamas, and a whole bunch of other names I can't pronounce or spell there can be no peace. They have to be removed or nothing will ever move forward. There is an assumption here I think that you can make peace with an unreasonable person like Hussein, or Arafat but this I feel is a mistake. They only thing you can do is remove them and hope someone reasonable comes into power and make your peace with them.

Kurch, do you think all the unreasonableness and murder comes from the arabs side?
 
Well Big Jim,
It depends on how you define "side" I think many arab people truly do want peace. The problem is they are locked in with goverments that willingly support and condone terrorism this escalates the violence. If you could remove that "keystone" of terror I think their really might be a chance for peace. Benjamin Netanyahu (forgive the spelling) said he knows many Palestinian businessmen that truly want peace with Israel. The problem is if they speak up they get executed by other Palestinians wanting to pursue terror as a means of getting want they want. There are truly only two sides good and evil, not so much Arab and Israel. In my humble opinion those in power in many Arab countries are evil. I know most arab people are truly peace loving, good hearted people and the terrorists and dictators represent a small fraction of the community. Unfortunately it is that small group who seems to wield most if not all the power. I pray one day that true Muslims like Anwar Sadat rule most of the Arab world. Sadat is a man I admire. He gave his life in the pursuit of a true peace with Israel. He was not afraid to say that terrorism is not right. Regrettably it seems there are not many with such courage today in this region.

As for Israel I will certainly not say everything they have done is perfect. However given their circumstances I feel they have conducted themselves quite admirably. I think they would truly welcome peace with their arab neighbors. How we get there is another question for it seems the terror from the equation is not going to be elminated any time soon.
 
kurchatovium said:
The problem is they are locked in with goverments that willingly support and condone terrorism this escalates the violence.


who, Sharon? 😛 Neither of the leaders are working towards peace at the moment. The Israelis have an army, the Palesinians have lone gunmen and bombers, but both groups attempt the same things. Just because you put uniforms on your killers doesn't make them right.

Anyone see the pictures of the Israeli army trying to stop journalists from covering the attacks on Arafat's HQ? When anyone tries to stop the media from doing their job, it's a fair bet that something dodgy is happening. Look at Indonesia, East Timor, Iraq, Zimbabwe etc. Any governments who restrain the media are up to something.

Other than that, I like your post kurch.

Biggles
 
Last edited:
Well, the members sympathetic to the ADL will probably call me a neo-nazi for saying this, but I do not believe for an instant that the Israeli nation is as innocent as you do Kurch. (And I hasten to add mate, that I mean no personal slight to you by saying that.) Israel (the nation, not the people) are responsible for the greatest single land heist of the later half of the 20th centurey. They suddenly plonked their arses down in the middle of some arab land and declared that it was their "homeland". COUGHCOUGHbullshit!!!!COUGHCOUGH............

90-odd % of the people who live in the geographical region of the world called "Israel", trace their genetic heritage back to southern Russia and Siberia more than Jolly-Arab Land.

Does this mean I think the Palastinians are right? Nope, not a bit. The people of Israel and the people of Palestine (the theoretical Palestine anyway) are both being exploited and manipulated in the grossest and most disgusting way possible. The real BASTARD of this situation is that the same people are manipulating both sides. At the very top, the two leaderships are all controlled by the same force and that force has no interest whatsoever in calling a halt to the war. People are far to easy to manipulate when they're afraid of each other and right now, that is the exact situation. On top of that the war earns far to much money for very important people to stop.

That's why the conflict in Northern Ireland has been going on for so long. Get this.........two sides hate each other and say they're different from each other. Both sides call themselves Christian.........both sides feel tha they're being done down by the other..........both sides feel that God is on their side and that they're morally right. Ireland's misery will continue for a long time because it's an ideal situation for petty arseholes to create their own little kingdoms. The British Government loves it because it's an ideal place to practice counter-terrorist warfare and Adams, McGuiness and co. love it because it gives them the ideal platform to create their own platform of power; standing up against the evil opressors. Make no mistake the UK Government has done a lot of bloody evil things to people. If you want to break it up into religious discussion you can say that English and Scottish protestants have persuecuted and made miseries of the lives of loads of catholics in the past few centuries. On the flip side, catholics have persecuted millions of native peoples in the New World (I'm thinking of the conquistadors right now) and burned countless of people at the stake because they had an unsightly wart on their nose, or because they were "witches". These two sides, and every side on the opposing flanks of any conflict on earth ARE NOT opposites. They are oppo-sames. Sides that have suprisingly similar creeds, but have their common people manipulated into fearing and fighting each other.

If anyone wants to think that I'm anti-semitic for making derogatory remarks about Israel, then please bear in mind that I'm part Jewish myself. Legally, I'm C of E, but my surname ends in M-A-N and a few generations back, my family were Jewish through and through.
 
Re: The media sometimes sucks, but...

amk714 said:


Right--just look at Watergate! :sowrong: And please, no whining about the "liberal" media! :cry1:

P.S. Here's a recent link on the Middle East situation: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020923/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_7115

No-one is too highly placed, to be put in their place. If someone like Tricky Dicky or JFK strays too far from what their bosses tell them, then it's a good bet they'll end up on the receiving end of a bullet or a career destroying scandal.
 
I still think the Israeli's have acted more than admirably under the circumstances. The Palestinians terrorists have hid bombs and weapons in ambulances and then when the Israeli's stop them they start crying "The Israeli's won't even let us help our wounded.". Known terrorists will hide with children so if the Israeli's try to get them out they start crying "Look the Israeli's are attacking are children.". Sharon is just trying to find a way to stop the suicide bombings and I don't blame him a bit for most of the actions he has taken. The Israeli military goes out of its way to try to avoid harming civilians sometimes they fail due to the sneaky chickesh*t tactics used by terrorists.

The Palestinians, on the other hand, have young men and women who have been coerced into strapping explosives to their bodies to blow up as many innocent people as they can. No matter how you slice that I find it disgusting. This makes the bombers pawns and the people who support them less than human. So yes I do differentiate between the Israeli military and someone who runs up to a school bus full of children and blows it up. Maybe thats wrong but thats the way I feel. Like I said there are real Palestinians who desire peace who will never get it because people won't see past the evil. There are not yet enough people to say no I am not letting my kid strap explosives to himself for a couple of thousand dollars to blow up some innocent people.

I have listened to a lot of stuff on this mainly on a show of Alan Keyes called "Making Sense" and realized that for the most part Israel has done more than its fair share to facilitate peace. Many of you do not believe this. Heck for a long time I didn't either. However if you look over the facts and there is a lot of stuff to look over. I think you will come to the same conclusion. I do not remember all of the stuff and it is far too complicated for little ole me to discuss. All I would say is try to find unbias sources of news or double check items and I would say you would come to the same conclusion. Maybe if more people did this peace might actually have a chance in the Middle East.
 
Hmmmm, no question of it those sort of tactics are unjustifiable. Quite a few of them the IRA have put to good use over the years, but I digress.............

Kurch most if not all of what you say is correct. But given that the Israelis have some very intelligent people in their head shed, it's a wonder that they've not used more constructive weapons.

"The pen (or in this case media) is mightier than the sword". Going apeshit with bulldozers might look tough, but in truth all it's done it lose them any credence they ever had in alot of people's eyes.
 
BigJim, I would agree that there are things that Israel could have done perhaps to accomplish the goals they want and maybe look better in the world view. Maybe Israel can get some smarter people in to find more creative ways of stopping the terrorists and leave the general populous untouched entirely. It is a complicated situation and I think there are no easy answers. It is sad that so many people will die before we even come close to finding a solution. That I think everyone can agree on.
 
kurchatovium said:
BigJim, I would agree that there are things that Israel could have done perhaps to accomplish the goals they want and maybe look better in the world view. Maybe Israel can get some smarter people in to find more creative ways of stopping the terrorists and leave the general populous untouched entirely. It is a complicated situation and I think there are no easy answers. It is sad that so many people will die before we even come close to finding a solution. That I think everyone can agree on.

Definatley mate, definatley. Israel has the staus of nationhood, and they must do everything they can to defend the "image" of that.
 
What's New
1/23/26
Visit Clips4sale for tickling clips of all types and producers!

Door 44
Live Camgirls!
Live Camgirls
Streaming Videos
Pic of the Week
Pic of the Week
Congratulations to
*** brad1701 ***
The winner of our weekly Trivia, held every Sunday night at 11PM EST in our Chat Room
Top