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Presidential debate

Look at me! I'm being quoted everywhere!
No of course I don't think things are easy for them right now. I'm talking of course in a much broader, general sense. What I mean is I hope that some good can come of this in the long term and once the dust settles that life in Iraq can be better under a new government than it was under Saddam.
It would be nice if SOME good came of it anyway.
 
whether you have to pay for your education or later is not the issue, the issue is having to pay a lot of money for it. I was lucky enough to have my parents pay for my undergrad schooling so when i wanted to buy a house i could because i wasnt in a ridiculous amount of debt.

What im saying is that education should be a right as well as healthcare, freedom of speech and expression, as well as many other things that stand contrary to bush.

Changing the vastly unequal global income distribution where at one end 37,000 people starve to death a day and the other people spend 37,000 dollars on campaign contributions to keep them rich is something that is a necessity.

If thats how grown ups act, then call me childish all you want.
 
Global income distribution? "income" is something that someone earns for their family, not something someone earns for everyone.
You clearly have a VERY socialist mindset and there just aren't too many people in this country who would agree with you there that higher education is or should be a "right". You'd probably be happier someplace like France or another socialist-minded European country.
In any case, if higher education WAS free for everyone all you would find is a college degree would mean nothing. You think everyone would be out there with high paying super-jobs? There still needs to be people to clean the public restrooms, pick the crops, flip the hamburgers, and sell Dunkin Donuts. Or do you think they should all get the same pay as NASA scientists?
 
Well, it's been a while since I posted anything on this site, basically because I thought the whole tone of the place was descending into stupidity.

Imagine how pleased I was to see a twentysome page thread about politics. At last - people who have opinions worth stating.

Or maybe not. Twenty one pages of reasonably interesting stuff, but barely a word on the human rights record of the Bush administration.

Despite the fact I'm not an American, I'm still appalled at the way the Bush administration has basically torn up the Geneva Convention, used the legal system to work out just how far they could push "abuse" before it turns into torture, create the Kafkaesque nightmare of Guantanamo and the other various detention facilities round the planet, allow evidence obtained under duress to be admissible, practice "extraordinary rendition" and a host of other abuses I neither have the time or the inclination to mention here, (for the simple reason that most people won't believe it or will find some hysterical justification for all of this). And as if that weren't enough, how come the American government refuses to sign up to any international laws that might result in their troops being held accountable for any war crimes they commit ?

And as for the complicity of the UK government in all of this, well it's a crying shame. One of our most senior judges recently decided that evidence obtained under torture was admissible in UK courts, putting our legal system back some 500 years.

I had no problem at all with the overthrowing of the Taliban regime, and if Saddam Hussein had been toppled for purely humanitarian reasons then I would have been the first to applaud.

But as is now transparently obvious to all but the most feeble minded, the level of threat that Iraq presented to the western world was of a very low order indeed. The country was already crippled by economic sanctions which managed to a) prevent the persual of WMD programmes and b) increase the hardship suffered by the poor bastards who constitute the masses in Iraq. There was already a no-fly zone enforced over the entirety of Iraq. And is it me, or do the words "Oil for food programme" contain just a small hint as to what it was really all about ? And who went and armed the Hussein dictatorship in the first place ?

This war was fought to finish Daddy Bush's business, and that business is oil. Just look at the business interests of the senior figures of the Bush administration. And ask yourself this : did they go in without UN approval or adequate planning for the aftermath because the situation was so desperate, or because they knew they could just go do it anyway and basically didn't give a shit ? Was it about people or was it about oil ?

And if anyone's thinking I'm some sort of heretic for daring to suggest that America would ever indulge in human rights violations then type some of the following phrases into Google and do a little digging:

Dianna Ortiz, Guatemala, Phoenix program, KUBARK manual, Mamdouh Habib, DEF camps, Morganthau plan, Moazzam Begg, "Detention in Afghanistan and Guantanamo" document, school of the Americas.

That should do you for starters. And while you're at it, why not do some digging into just how much WMD the USA and UK have ? And why not investigate just how long it's going to be before America is due to run out of fossil fuel while you're there ?

Anyway, it's not like human rights abuses are a new fad for American governments, it's just that Bush & co. are so much more blatant about it than previous administrations. It doesn't matter who you vote for, Bush or Kerry - it's not going to make a lick of difference as far as human rights go. So long as the intelligence agencies and armaments industries have any say in it then nothing will change, be the enemy the reds under the bed, the yellow peril or indeed Islam.

Still never mind, there's plenty of new friends for America on the political scene - I see that Uzbekistan is now a valued ally. Now there's a place with human rights issues that even George W. Bush can envy. This is a country that doesn't fool around. If they want someone tortured they'll do it themselves, rather than "outsourcing" to places like Syria or Egypt.

Still, never mind. So long as taxes stay low enough and cable is relatively inexpensive, then who gives a fuck about human rights eh ?
 
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many people in this country dont agree because they dont understand the economic reality of the world.

i agree income needs to go to those who produce it, mainlty the workers who see there income go to the rich who dont earn it.

many times the income is just blatently stolen by the rich, the top criminal dictatorships which have stolen billions of dollars, enouch to give all dunkin dounuts workers access to college and healthcare, were all supported by the rich here. capitalism knows no boundries.
 
o and im glad somone brought up the human rights issue, because if you decide to question this corruptions there is a good chance you will be killed tortured put in jail or scrutinized by your exercise of free speech
 
Doc, good to see you hanging around again.
I'd hate to see you waste precious brain cells in a political debate though, you need to conserve. 😛 😀
 
Double plus ungood

Hi Nessonite. I hope things are going better for you than last time we spoke. Email me if you feel like chatting.

And I promise you I'm not really a good man for a political debate. I hate all politicians equally, just on general principle (the principle being they're all a shower of bastards)

-oOo-

George Orwell knew what he was talking about when he said "The point of power is power. The point of torture is torture" or something along those lines in "1984". If you disregard the scenery in that book and look at the themes explored in the subtext (control of information and people, dehumanisation, etc.) then there's some really alarming parallels with what's going down right now.

And when guys like Bush and Rumsfeld state that they would never use or condone torture while they go about setting it up as a global industry then that's "doublethink" and "doubletalk".

Nice to see western democracy working so well.
 
Doc, of course you can pick up AIM and talk to me anytime. We've discussed politics in the past, socialist bastard that you are, and I haven't held it against you. You know I love ya anyway. 😀
 
Of course, consensual human rights violations are another matter entirely. Especially ones that involve bondage and electric toothbrushes. So, yes - violate away !
 
Anyone catch the third debate tonight? Bush sounded less desperate this time, if still full of the same B.S.
 
Doctor Convulso said:
Well, it's been a while since I posted anything on this site, basically because I thought the whole tone of the place was descending into stupidity.

Imagine how pleased I was to see a twentysome page thread about politics. At last - people who have opinions worth stating.

Or maybe not. Twenty one pages of reasonably interesting stuff, but barely a word on the human rights record of the Bush administration.

Despite the fact I'm not an American, I'm still appalled at the way the Bush administration has basically torn up the Geneva Convention, used the legal system to work out just how far they could push "abuse" before it turns into torture, create the Kafkaesque nightmare of Guantanamo and the other various detention facilities round the planet, allow evidence obtained under duress to be admissible, practice "extraordinary rendition" and a host of other abuses I neither have the time or the inclination to mention here, (for the simple reason that most people won't believe it or will find some hysterical justification for all of this). And as if that weren't enough, how come the American government refuses to sign up to any international laws that might result in their troops being held accountable for any war crimes they commit ?

And as for the complicity of the UK government in all of this, well it's a crying shame. One of our most senior judges recently decided that evidence obtained under torture was admissible in UK courts, putting our legal system back some 500 years.

I had no problem at all with the overthrowing of the Taliban regime, and if Saddam Hussein had been toppled for purely humanitarian reasons then I would have been the first to applaud.

But as is now transparently obvious to all but the most feeble minded, the level of threat that Iraq presented to the western world was of a very low order indeed. The country was already crippled by economic sanctions which managed to a) prevent the persual of WMD programmes and b) increase the hardship suffered by the poor bastards who constitute the masses in Iraq. There was already a no-fly zone enforced over the entirety of Iraq. And is it me, or do the words "Oil for food programme" contain just a small hint as to what it was really all about ? And who went and armed the Hussein dictatorship in the first place ?

This war was fought to finish Daddy Bush's business, and that business is oil. Just look at the business interests of the senior figures of the Bush administration. And ask yourself this : did they go in without UN approval or adequate planning for the aftermath because the situation was so desperate, or because they knew they could just go do it anyway and basically didn't give a shit ? Was it about people or was it about oil ?

And if anyone's thinking I'm some sort of heretic for daring to suggest that America would ever indulge in human rights violations then type some of the following phrases into Google and do a little digging:

Dianna Ortiz, Guatemala, Phoenix program, KUBARK manual, Mamdouh Habib, DEF camps, Morganthau plan, Moazzam Begg, "Detention in Afghanistan and Guantanamo" document, school of the Americas.

That should do you for starters. And while you're at it, why not do some digging into just how much WMD the USA and UK have ? And why not investigate just how long it's going to be before America is due to run out of fossil fuel while you're there ?

Anyway, it's not like human rights abuses are a new fad for American governments, it's just that Bush & co. are so much more blatant about it than previous administrations. It doesn't matter who you vote for, Bush or Kerry - it's not going to make a lick of difference as far as human rights go. So long as the intelligence agencies and armaments industries have any say in it then nothing will change, be the enemy the reds under the bed, the yellow peril or indeed Islam.

Still never mind, there's plenty of new friends for America on the political scene - I see that Uzbekistan is now a valued ally. Now there's a place with human rights issues that even George W. Bush can envy. This is a country that doesn't fool around. If they want someone tortured they'll do it themselves, rather than "outsourcing" to places like Syria or Egypt.

Still, never mind. So long as taxes stay low enough and cable is relatively inexpensive, then who gives a fuck about human rights eh ?
I can never understand why liberals claiming to be intillectuals can not seem to think outside the box. Terrorist threats can not be measured by the same means that you would of a superpower. The threat that we percieve Iraq to have is one of potential aid to terrorist. this does not even necessarily mean al queda, anyone who wants to hurt this country. The assertion that the war was based solely on finishing his fathers war is simply ilogical at best. This threat is knew and the old rules of the cold war are useless. the only way to defeat your enemy is to kill him before he has a chance to hurt you and that means that there are goig to be some steps that don't come to fruition because you stopped them in the development stages. as for wmd, im satisfied with confiscating plans for american schools and bridges form tgerrorists there. In the long run having a free iraq as an ally and place of central opperation in the region witll be vital to future succes. in the case of libia it also gives us credibility thtat we will use force in your back yard if you don't head our word.

and as for the oil question, im sure that in a forum such as this most of you have played red alert or something of that nature, a simulated war game. any time that you can sustain a war that will pay for itself in trade of some mineral or product to be found in the region its good business. I think that everyone should watch the first two God Father movies as a part of school. then i think that the natural link between business, polotics, and war will be more apperant
 
jj82277 said:
I can never understand why liberals claiming to be intillectuals can not seem to think outside the box. Terrorist threats can not be measured by the same means that you would of a superpower. The threat that we percieve Iraq to have is one of potential aid to terrorist. this does not even necessarily mean al queda, anyone who wants to hurt this country. The assertion that the war was based solely on finishing his fathers war is simply ilogical at best. This threat is knew and the old rules of the cold war are useless. the only way to defeat your enemy is to kill him before he has a chance to hurt you and that means that there are goig to be some steps that don't come to fruition because you stopped them in the development stages. as for wmd, im satisfied with confiscating plans for american schools and bridges form tgerrorists there. In the long run having a free iraq as an ally and place of central opperation in the region witll be vital to future succes. in the case of libia it also gives us credibility thtat we will use force in your back yard if you don't head our word.

and as for the oil question, im sure that in a forum such as this most of you have played red alert or something of that nature, a simulated war game. any time that you can sustain a war that will pay for itself in trade of some mineral or product to be found in the region its good business. I think that everyone should watch the first two God Father movies as a part of school. then i think that the natural link between business, polotics, and war will be more apperant

By "think outside the box" you mean "think in abstract concepts such as 'terror' because that's the only way that the administration could connect Saddam to 9/11 or Al Qaeda", then you are using an abusive definition of "intellectual." I'd like to consider myself as being intellectual without being right-wing.
Leadership is about having concrete reasons for making major decisions, not relying on God and abstract concepts such as "terror" to justify them.

As for the war not being solely based on finishing his father's war, well I just have to disagree with you there. Can you give any other reason why Bush went to such great lengths to justify taking out Saddam? If so, you're doing better than Bush. He keeps explaining the war by demonizing Saddam ("he's the bad guy") and talking about having to root out "terror" whereever "terror" can find a home.

Give me the guy who invented the internet over the guy who invented terror any day.
 
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