Public apology to the BDSM community

[drew70]

I look forward to seeing your participation on these boards, Drew. Spoke to ya in PM, so I won't reiterate the stuff between you and I here...but I, for one, feel that everyone should have a chance to better themselves and affect change in their lives when they honestly feel the need to do so. I myself have had to do this, and quite recently in fact. So, for you to come out and do this now actually added to several slightly different perspectives I have about the things that are important to me. I hope you can do the same.

As far as Viper's comments....they may seem a bit harsh at first, but if this were an actual room and someone were apologizing to me for some pretty harsh things, I can't say I wouldn't do a quick run of "you really pissed me off, dude" and then accept the apology. Have actually done it, in fact. Of course, it needs to be dropped after that. Also, I do believe that anything regarding these two is between these two and really doesn't need continued comments from anyone else. (Myself included. Just said that piece as a Mod not wanting it to get out of hand...otherwise I never woulda mentioned it.)

This is a good move, Drew. You're a decent guy in person, and the folks of the TMF should get to know that part of you.

Thanks, Dave. That's exactly what I'm trying to achieve here. Change for the better, which is long overdue. The first step is the toughest, but I'm not out of the woods yet. I still have a lot of attitude adjustment that's part of my behavior modification program. One doesn't cast aside long held opinions in a day. It's going to be an uphill battle for a while.

As for Viper's comments, there's no cause for concern. I'm actually hoping you'll give the kid a break and overlook his GR violations and ignore his tough guy showboating as I have. I'm sure it's just the result of one too many episodes of The Sopranos. I'm more concerned with modifying my own behavior than penalizing others for theirs.

 

[mabus]

Drew, what did you say about that community that was so bad?

 

[Dave2112]

I think that anything from the past regarding the behavior of any member should be left up to that member to discuss. Changing the way one is will never be an easy task, and is never affected overnight. If Drew needs to purge any of this stuff, he'll do it in his time...if not, and he'd rather just leave it behind him, so be it. People often wish a person they have issues with would "change", so when they do, I say we give them the chance to do so without having to fight a harder battle than it already is.

(For the record, and this is just the "Mod" part of me doing his job, I don't see Viper's comments as a GR violation per se. Sometimes these things have to be taken in context, and I think Viper just took one chance to get something off his chest. Maybe a bit harsher than some of us would have done, but he said his piece and he's finished. I had a long falling out with my own sister, and when she came to me to apologize many years later, I did "let her have it" first before accepting her apology and moving on. She hurt me, and she needed to know it before I just said, "Oh, it's ok, no harm done." Harm was done, and she knew that. We're both better for it now. I say we let the people who need to deal with this on personal level do just that...deal with it personally and keep any details to PM's and such, unless Drew feels a need to get anything out for his own sake.)

 

[ViperGTS]

Dave understand exactly the point I was trying to get across...I'm glad I was able to convey it clearly. Thank you for reading it carefully.

Drew, here's to having better conversations with you in the future.

 

[drew70]

Drew, what did you say about that community that was so bad?

I guess it started about nine years ago in the newsgroup alt.multimedia.tk, which most of us fondly refer to as AMT. I kept seeing these guys refering to themselves as masters, and toward their partners as slaves. I encouraged these slave women to stand up to their masters and tell them to pound sand. I have long standing issues with anybody who treats the opposite gender as inferior. Some of these guys even went as far as to capitalize their self-referential personal pronouns such as Me, My, and Mine. I was pretty much outraged, and made it my mission in life to humiliate them at every opportunity.

Two years ago, Redmage posted a clip here at the TMF of an SM session he did for Insex. I was appalled, and started a thread called Tickling vs Pain. If you do a search, you'll find it's still there. I campaigned against men hurting women for sexual pleasure, and portrayed them as evil people, no different than abusive wife-beating bastards. I also insinuated that women who seek out such men have self esteem issues and aren't quite playing with a full deck. Since then there have been other similar remarks from me in threads pertaining to SM.

Lindy asked if I'd changed my opinions about BDSM. I sort of half dodged her question at the time, so let me address it now.

I'm at a point right now in which I'm trying to change my attitudes about SM as well as my reactions to it. On an intellectual level, I understand that it's consensual play, and nothing over which to get excited. However seeing a man deliberately inflicting pain on a woman still reeks havoc with my sense of fair play and common decency. I was raised to believe it's wrong for guys to hit girls/women, and in the social circles in which I grew up, such a thing was extremely rare to the point of being virtually nonexistent. This is so ingrained in my own personal value set that it's going to be very difficult to establish an exception to this policy.

This is the uphill battle of which I spoke. I have to reprogram myself not to associate such consensual scenes with the same repugnance as I would domestic violence and wife beating. It's not realistic and it's horribly unfair and disrespectful to many good people who don't deserve it. v

 

[minerva]

Seriously trying to change your attitude and questioning your own opinions to understand other people's point of view is not easy sometimes.
Much respect, Drew 🙂

 

[WorkInProgress]

I can relate to where you're coming from, Drew. After I joined the tickling community, I wanted to write a creative work (persons who know me know what specific genre I write in) that would make what I knew of the fetish world accessible to outsiders, but because tickling seemed a little too outlandish and unfamiliar as a BDSM fetish, I used spanking instead. After I had written the first inception of that work, I became curious about the spanking scene. Trouble was, though, when I first got into it, I didn't think I'd be capable of spanking a woman. It seemed too much like violence against women. My first self-introductory post in a spanking forum said I wanted to spank men and be spanked by women. What I was really saying was that I wanted to have some kind of play with women and I wanted to spank somebody. Now, deep down, I wanted to spank women, but I didn't admit it to myself at first. Well, once I spent some time in the scene, I found that spanking a woman really wasn't all that different from tickling her, other than that it hurt my hand if I didn't use the right technique. (The technique, by the way, involves keeping your hand sufficiently cupped that the centermost spot on the palm doesn't get the full weight of the impact.) Now, I'm not into whipping, in any case, but I think the best way to think of all of it--like tickling--is that it's about heightened sensation, and that the domination is about role play, and very limited to the context of that play.

(I'm purposefully pulling the conversation in a new direction now, from your penitence to your pilgrimage of discovery about the common ground that ticklephiles can find with those parts of the BDSM community that are different from their own proclivities.)

 

[ViperGTS]

Spanking is not a whole heck of a lot different from tickling, in my opinion. For instance, my g/f, whom I love and adore, thoroughly enjoys being tickled silly, to the point that it makes her quite aroused.

On the other hand, a good female friend of mine whom I Dom over occasionally get incredibly 'wet' when she's tied up and spanked.

It's a horse of a different color, but it's a horse none the less.

 

[chicago]

Great thread, Drew. While I disagreed with the things you said in that thread, I definitely didn't get too bent out of shape about it like some did. I mean we're all entitled to our opinions and yours isn't going to change what I do in private with my boyfriend.

However, I'm happy to see you've apologized.

It's a good example to set for some of the "younger" members who seem to be just as opinionated, if not more, sometimes.

Go you.

 

[barefeetarebest]

I can't recall anytime I've ever seen/heard/read you being inappropriate or disrespectful to anyone here; but then again, i don't/can't pay that close attention to everything or i'd always be here.

However, respectable apology if you feel you've offended anyone, or people have felt offended. I say once again, Drew, YOU are the Man!

 

[mabus]

I wanted to know, because I didn't want your apology to be just an apology, but have meaning behind it. Sometimes people apologize because they have to, or want to, but their feelings don't change. This is a case where you can change your feelings if you have enough knowledge behind it.

Because I'm a laid back guy, and pretty tolerant after finding the TMF, (and after leaving the Catholic Church, because let's face it, religions frequently breed intolerance, especially when it comes to any sexual differences.)

The bondage scene never really bothered me. I wasn't in it, I have no inclination to be in it. If you have that fetish, you're interested, if not..well,... I see a woman tied up, and it's just a woman tied up. (Voluntarily, of course) Unless she's wearing pantyhose and wants to be tickled, I'm really not turned on. I see a woman in leather pants, and it does nothing for me.
There are hundreds of fetishes out there, and having one and being tolerant of one, but not another, always struck me as hypocritical. There are people who have a tickling fetish who look at someone with a foot fetish and think they're weird! I'm thinking YOU HAVE A TICKLING FETISH! Go ask a person from the plain boring world, and they'll tell both of you you're freaks!

Obviously those people in that world like being tied up, like being spanked or humiliated, or whatever, and that's their thing. I kind of understand it being who I am, but I don't really bother. They don't bother me, I don't bother them. The ones doing the spanking and tying up have an outlet for their fetishes and desires, that doesn't involve doing it in the real world, so that all works out. They have safe words too, so they all know when to stop.
People will look at bondage fetishes and think they're crazy, but I say, why jude? Because they have a boring sex life, because they don't understand or want to...because they're just judgemental? I've always looked at people who had all kinds of fetishes and could safely enjoy them as being much happier than the other peope who only dream, and hold their subconscience anger inside and not being able to be wild and crazy, and judging others because of it.

I also think that some people in that world might want to really do that in real life, but honestly, (and I have no idea if this is true) it seems that people who are sadist in the bondage world don't need to be in the real world. I believe that people in that community probably go home and are very kind people to their family, friends, and society. There are husbands and wives who will stay happy and married and respectful until they die, but absolutely love to tie each other up when it comes to sex.

And there are people like abusive husbands and fathers and such, who would rather be assholes in real life and see people cower for real, instead of in a make believe world. They themselves would turn their nose up at the bondage world and call them a bunch of perverts and freaks (they'd be yelling, of course, because that's what they do!) I think your apology leads to an interesting discussion. I believe you're combining two similiar, yet completely different groups.

Imagine someone in the bondage community, who is on that side, then imagine someone like Fred Phelps, who is an asshole in real life.

 

[LindyHopper]

Thank you for the explanation, drew. But it still makes me wonder, because people almost never just up and change their minds, especially if the change is difficult, without a reason. An enlightening personal encounter, an insight brought about by a new experience... I mean, is there an interesting story here? 😉

Anyway, you obviously don't need to answer that, I'm just being nosy...

 

[kis123]

Try reading my response again please, especially the last line. Thanks.

I caught it all, but it did appear (to me) that you were a little harsh. But I do remember that god-awful "tickling vs pain" thread and I guess I'd understand why you needed to vent.

And btw, you're welcome!

 

[kis123]

Kis, I hope you aren't going to pick a fight on an apology thread, of all places. The only person who really has any right to be offended by Viper's remarks is Drew, and that's entirely up to him.

For my own part I'm, well, pleasantly surprised is the best way to put it. I'll be interested to see how things develop going forward.

No one's trying to pick a fight with anyone!

If you would've asked me my intentions, I certainly would've have shared them with you and anyone else.

You know, I wish all of you (and you know who I'm talking about) stop putting words in my mouth and assuming my intentions. Didn't bother Viper or Drew and it shouldn't be bothering you. This is another thread, just leave it behind and let it go....................

 

[KittenToes]

Good going

First and foremost, I feel I owe an apology to BDSM community for the things I've said and the bad light in which I cast those who participate.

I have to admit I was often confused by Drew's stance on things online, because he always got on just fine with the "evil sadists" and "low self-esteemed masochists" among us in person.

Thanks, Drew. Apology accepted. Now, in the spirit of "integration", after you've finished licking my boots, slave, kindly bend over. I've a new paddle I want to test...

 

[kis123]

I have to admit I was often confused by Drew's stance on things online, because he always got on just fine with the "evil sadists" and "low self-esteemed masochists" among us in person.

Thanks, Drew. Apology accepted. Now, in the spirit of "integration", after you've finished licking my boots, slave, kindly bend over. I've a new paddle I want to test...

Now even I found that one funny!!!!😀

 

[drew70]

There are hundreds of fetishes out there, and having one and being tolerant of one, but not another, always struck me as hypocritical. There are people who have a tickling fetish who look at someone with a foot fetish and think they're weird! I'm thinking YOU HAVE A TICKLING FETISH! Go ask a person from the plain boring world, and they'll tell both of you you're freaks!

I mostly agree with you here, except I personally have not experienced the hostility from people of the plain boring world that you and many others describe. Before this decade I spent a lifetime being tickled by women of the plain boring world.

I almost wish my issues with BDSM were simply a matter of a hypocritical stance that it's "weird" or "not normal." That would be much easier to deal with and recover from. But BDSM's weirdness or its departure from the mainstream was never an issue with me. I was fine with other fetishes and preferences I didn't share, to include feet, bondage, rubber, leather, whatever.

My issue with SM was that I felt it crossed a line from being a harmless fetish into something else. We all have limits to what we tolerate, lines in the sand, so to speak, that if crossed, we react with shock, disapproval, or even full blown outrage. The line between adult and underage is a good example. Our tickling fetish is cool until it crosses that line of what we deem an appropriate age, and then we explode with outrage. Consensuality is another line. The desire guys have to tickle a female is cool until it's done without consent, and then we're appalled, because it has now crossed a line over into an area we deem unacceptable.

For me, BDSM crossed a line. Not of age or consensuality, but a line of minimal respect and treatment we as human beings are required to show to one another. What I'm attempting to do now is to erase that line altogether and redraw it in a more suitable location.

 

[Redmage]

This is the uphill battle of which I spoke. I have to reprogram myself not to associate such consensual scenes with the same repugnance as I would domestic violence and wife beating. It's not realistic and it's horribly unfair and disrespectful to many good people who don't deserve it.

I'm honestly astonished. I'll have to do some thinking as well.

 

[drew70]

Thank you for the explanation, drew. But it still makes me wonder, because people almost never just up and change their minds, especially if the change is difficult, without a reason. An enlightening personal encounter, an insight brought about by a new experience... I mean, is there an interesting story here? 😉

No, not really. It started as feeling that was completely vague and undefined, kind of like that nagging feeling that you've forgotten something important. I realized I was manifesting a lot of derision and hostility that seemed to be augmenting as time went on rather than diminishing. So I stopped posting for a while and started a process of self examination. For example, I'd read a post and think, what an idiot, and a derisive reply would form in my head. But instead of letting it out, I asked myself questions like, why does this bother me? Should it bother me? What would it take for something like this not to bother me?

I made a list of all the things that would likely trigger a mean-spirited response from me. The top of the list was BDSM master/slave relationships and pain play, so I focused on this topic and began to work towards readjusting my attitudes toward it. I found that the more effort I put towards this end, the more it seemed like the right thing to do. I reached a point where I knew that an apology toward the group of people I'd attacked the most was necessary, and would help cement my commitment to change.

 

[drew70]

Thanks, Drew. Apology accepted. Now, in the spirit of "integration", after you've finished licking my boots, slave, kindly bend over. I've a new paddle I want to test...

May I gargle with Scope first, Mistress? I'd hate to offend you with boot breath. 😀

 

[dvnc]

I couldn't have put it better myself, allow me to second this.

I'll third it. Props, man. I've a respect for this that far exceeds any irritations in our past.