nessonite said:
Oh now that pisses me off!
We MUST find a way to get the missing posts back. For one this isnt the only thread that is missing posts and for another, Celtic, your post should NOT be lost!
I looked through my cache but it doesnt seem to be there.
It is lost, and it isn't. Heres the best I can do from what I remembered saying. Please note though that its not nearly as powered as it was the other night, so its bound to have lost some of its flair. Its also worded differently, and that might help or hinder my point.
Anyways-
I have only read up to page 9, and when I reached the end of it, I had heard and read enough. To quote Popeye "I stands what I stands, but I can't stands no more!"
I am sickened by the manner in which this thread was brought about and by the choice of words used to address the issue both initially and in the ongoing process of this thread. I feel they were rather immature, very narrow-minded (from both sides), and are a harmful misrepresentation of the basic teachings of the Church and of Christianity as a whole, whether than be catholism or any of the numerous protestant dinominations.
I am ashamed by the words and actions of BBR as a christian. You, BBR are not doing all christians a favor by speaking in the manner in which you are. You are being too confrontational, too pompous and too arrogant, and this is negatively reflecting on christianity, as you are claiming to represent it in this matter of same sex marriages. Many of your posts have struck me as ignorant and foolish, and from one christian to another, I'm asking you sir to just stop talking. Every time you open your mouth you seem to give more and more ammunition to those you are rilling up and you are only giving the athiests, agnostics, and anti-religious more of a reason to cement their views on the matter.
Not all christians think as you do, and if you expected me or anyone for that matter to whole-heartedly and wrongly back your stance then you've got another thing coming and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for that. We are not some mob and they are not some wretched mongrals that need to be put down. While I'm not saying you yourself feel this way, as there would be no way for me to know what you truely feel in your heart, thats the way its coming acrossed. You are trying to afford no one the chance to see things a different way, and you seem eager to smash any other idea, thought or belief that is contrary to your own. Do yourself a favor and stop posting. Your making an ass of yourself and your making an ass of me and all christians everywhere, and I don't appriciate that.
On topic, gays are people too. They have every right to have the same rights that we straights do (no disrespect to gays, its just easier to and faster to type gay than to type homosexual or other choice names). I say as a society, we should give gay people the right to legally marry eachother. I personally have no problem with this. I have known some gay folks before, and I found them to be great people, no different than you or I other than by sexual orientation. They are hardly a threat to society and granting them this right will not only make us a more tolerant nation, it will appease gay people, and the strikes, the rallies, and so forth will end and there will be harmony after. To give them this right isn't a sign of weakness or a sign of collapse in our system, its a sign of tolerance and acceptance (which we all have to ultimately do anyways). It is also an olive branch of peace that will be passed from straights to gays. I believe its an olive branch we need to pass. If we do not, the problem will only escalate further, and gays will seek out illegal marriage licences and will find themselves any loop holes in the system they can. The problem will only fester and boil if its not resolved immediately. The courts should allow them to marry while they still mean to peacefully and by the law. There will come a time when they ALL simply won't give a damn and will live together whether they are legally married or not. Trying to stop them from getting married reasonably and peacefully is like trying to stop a water breach with a stick of gum. Its simply not going to hold.
Now to the moral and religious points of view, which are just as important, and are the main focus and concern of my post.
I am Roman Catholic. I am proud to be one, and I wouldn't change my religion for any other. I am neither brainwashed or controlled as no brainwashing or manipulative control is being tried on me, or anyone. So for those that are just looking for a reason to bash religion for this reason, please don't. People do what they will according to their own free will. There is no force or conspiracy that is trying to enslave us or anything like that.
I have looked at other religions too, like Buddism, and I truely believe and have come to a personal truth- there is indeed only one God, but he represents himself in different ways to different people. When we die we see him as he is, no different than what we believed him to be on earth as mortals.
As such, I believe ultimately that God, when you meet him, doesn't care about religion, sex, gender, or even sexual orrientation. He sees us for what we are to him- his children. We are no more and no less to eachother. When he renders his final judgement, I believe he looks at our merits and failures equally. I do not believe he would focus on just one thing and condemn you to hell for that. For instance, if a gay man or woman does go to hell, its just as easily for all the sins they commited in their entire life time and did not repent for. A murderer can be spared. A prostitute can be spared. A homosexual living and leading a homosexual lifestyle can therefore be spared as well. Why? Because God, in his infinite love and mercy loves us totally.
I believe the only way salvation would be completely lost for a person is if they made it a point in their life to work against God, his people, and served darkness (in any of its forms). By so severing themselves from him, they are no longer his, and he cannot help them any longer. I'm sure it pains him everytime he sends a soul to hell, but at the same time it Satan's delight, because he got what he wanted from you. Whether you served him or not, directly, intentionally, indirectly, unintentionally, whatever, you now belong to him, and unless its not your time or God specifically has chosen you to serve one of his divine purposes, then God will not spare you from hell. Yes, he is a loving father, but he deals out divine punishment as well.
In the book of Revelations, it speaks of a countless multitude of God's people, of differing tribes, tongues, and ways of life, and they are all bowing before the Lord and paying him homage and giving him praise, in thanksgiving for his rescue and salvation of them.
Now I know the Bible mentions several times, if not many that God dispises homosexuality and anything of the kind. In fact, he destroyed entire cities even after he couldn't find one single holy soul there.
I for one take this literally, and believe it actually happened. The towns of Saddam and Gahmora(probably spelled that wrong) were completely and utterly corrupt, vile, unspeakable, and ungodly. Unholy things were going on in those towns and there was no way for them to be saved, they were total and complete travesties to God so he smote them.
However, we must remember that the Bible is not a book of morals, it is eastern literature. It is a pedigree. A history. People have used the Bible throughout history as a means to subjugate, control, punish, and disinfranchize others. These were words from my local parish priest by the way, hes the one that said this about the Bible, and I completely agree with him.
Furthermore, what one does in this life is what decides the next. I refuse to believe that a gay person who serves God despite their orientation is excluded from the Book Of Life!
And on that note is pisses me off that gays who try to lead godly lives and may just be as religious as we straights are are looked down upon and are called hypocrites. Some of them probably have more to say for themselves than we do, so its a crime in my mind that they are so disinfranchized. Not just by the church, but by the people of the church and society in general.
In fact, it is more the people than it is the church itself. The church has no qualms about allowing gay people to attend services or particpate in the various group activities that there are. It is the people, people so fearful of gays that keep them down.
I admit, things have got to change. But there are some things I will not stand for or accept. But those are best kept for a different topic. I also wouldn't want to be labeled or though of as some 'loose' 'liberal' catholic that doesn't take his religion and faith seriously, because I do. I believe in most of or all of the teachings of the catholic church and it's dogma, and I find it for the most part to be rightious dispite the attacks from the outside and even the inside (with the sex abuse cases). The church of new is not responsible for the acts of old, and any real christian will have seen the improvements since all those hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
We aren't money grabbers who are spending the funds unlegitimately (it takes money to keep a parish running and to pay the bills on time and to provide religious education by certified teachers to our youth and children. Its not just Sunday services in the Catholic Church. The catholic church inparticular is very vast and has a great deal of things to do and events to hold which are more often than not very important and key. If giving money to the church (which desperately needs it, especially in America) is a problem for you or you can't afford to give at least a dollar a week, something, then you don't have to. Donations are completely OPTIONAL.
I only bring up the monotary earnings because alf said something and has repeated to say something I found unfair and pretty ignorant about this. Just because you don't see some poor, frail child starving to death (which there probably are, since there are poor families in our world everywhere) doesn't mean theres no need. I can't speak for all churches everywhere, but the need is real and is legitimate. If it just so happens that a church is really well off, and has all the perks every church should, then its completely proportional to the neighborhood and the state of the economy where it stands and the ammounts of donations which it recieves, both for the development of the church, and to charity.
In conclusion, I think gay people should be allowed to marry eachother and enter a union. If there is any damnful sins to be had during the course or because of this union, then leave it up to God to decide that. We are not God people, and we have no right to deny other people basic rights under human law. Lets us be us and God be God.
To emphasis an unsaid point- I worship God the Almighty, not religion. I therefore love my gay brothers and sisters and accept them.
When I die, I will be judged accordingly to how I've judged others. What I will have reaped, I will have sowed. It is my hope and prayer however, that when I do die I am found worthy enough to enter the kingdom of Heaven and hear my Lord, my God, and my Father say to me with a smile-
"I love you my child. I have loved you since before you were born. I will love you forever. Well done, good and faithful servant."
