Should Celtic Emperor get his own artwork archive? Why or Why not?

[rajee]

Should Celtic Emperor get his own Artwork Archive and why or why not?
Your reasons behind your opinion would be appreciated.
Their will be a poll attached to this thread.

 

[m_g_n]

yes yes and yes!
let"s go for a archive
for celtic emp.!
join us my frends!!
"to arms!!!!"(just joking)
M.G.N

 

[isabeau]

i voted yes because i have been viewing lately his artwork and he is very talented imo. and there is a place here on the forum for his type of artwork. non tickling images .. i dont see why he shouldnt have one

isabeau

just my opinion

 

[TMF Jeff]

Obviously polls belong in the polls forum. Equally obviously, a decision has already been made about an archive for Celtic Emporer.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Wow, I didn't know this thing was here until isabeau told me it was.

Anyways, thanks guys, its really thoughtful. 🙂

@ Jeff:

I and no one else, publically mind you, would know about that (except of course any artists who may have been/were in on it, which isn't right if their opinions are the only ones that count). The matter has otherwise been very hush-hush. So it's not obvious to anyone but those making the decision. Myriads is the only one who has spoken to me about this, and at no point and time did he imply a decision was made, only that it was being stalled and left in drydock. It was only when I asked for answers that he revealed the reasons for the delay (namely some artists had complained against it). But none of these reasons seemed perminent, cemented or completely affirmative one way or the other.

But seeing as how this poll is now here, I think its a better idea than the other thread was, as it gives more of a clear picture of what people think. Thank you for allowing it, at any rate. 🙂

As this poll will be truthful (as theres no way to fake a vote), I am pleased to know and say that the results of this poll will determine whether I stay or go.

If theres enough yes votes, and they outnumber the no votes and Myriads or whomever grants me the forum, then I'll of course start posting artwork again and things will return to the way they were.

If there are more no votes than yes votes, then things will stay the same.

Its pretty simple really, and this should hopefully bring closure of the matter for everyone, not just myself.

As I've asked him time and time again, if you have no intentions of granting me the forum, please say so. Every time he has refrained from answering me flat out, and so the situation lingers.

I'm man enough to walk away, but not without a solid answer from the people who are rightfully making these decisions.

It's my hope at least, that this thread/poll will make it easier to answer us, as the forum would be just as much yours as it would be mine.

 

[Low_Roads]

Equally obviously, a decision has already been made about an archive for Celtic Emporer.

That makes the discussion hypothetical, but of no less interest. I would have warmly welcomed a Celtic Emperor Artist's Forum. He's an important voice in the community, well spoken, creative and succinct; his work is high-quality, widely known and well regarded. His forum at the TTC is dynamic and productive: anyone wishing to locate a specific piece of his fetish art can quite easily do so there. His non-fetish output is also well represented, critical for fleshing out the more specialized contributions and placing them in context. The case ought to have been the same here at the TMF. It's a silly oversight, evidently a political one. My dear god, I hate politics.

 

[isabeau]

after viewing some of Celtic's drawings earlier today i do see that he also makes tickling pictures as well as non tickling. sorry about that error on my part.

isabeau

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

That makes the discussion hypothetical, but of no less interest. I would have warmly welcomed a Celtic Emperor Artist's Forum. He's an important voice in the community, well spoken, creative and succinct; his work is high-quality, widely known and well regarded. His forum at the TTC is dynamic and productive: anyone wishing to locate a specific piece of his fetish art can quite easily do so there. His non-fetish output is also well represented, critical for fleshing out the more specialized contributions and placing them in context. The case ought to have been the same here at the TMF. It's a silly oversight, evidently a political one. My dear god, I hate politics.

Because this poll represents my final decision, I can't help but feel the need to chime in here. Though I'll try and keep it brief.

You make a good point about it being hypothetical. And more than that, the whole process seems wishy-washy and a bit capracious and bias. Which raises concerns about the legitimacy/fairness of how this is being handled.

At one point in the conversation he said he would have given the forum to me, and he was about to give the forum to me, but he felt as though I/we were campaigning and that he felt because of that, the opinions weren't as wholesome and therefore he did not count them. By doing that the whole situation was overturned and made one-sided, as nothing you said mattered, or would come to matter yet.

It's interesting to note that the only reason it seems like a campaign struggle is because how much effort people are putting into it. Is that really a bad thing, and should it not just go to show how much vested interest people outside of myself have in it?

He also said some artists had weighed in, in private of course, and that they mangaged to sway him. What they said we may never know, but we can only assume it was bad (and most likely mixed with comments of a personal nature, which taint their overall argument) and made to make him think twice or reverse what may have otherwise been a favorable decision. And they didn't just do this one time, they did it repeatedly, according to him. When I asked him what they said (as I feel I have a right to know the charges against me), as I had suspected some artist retribution and he only admitted it later, he stopped responding.

Is not what they did a form of "campaigning" as well?

Just because it was done in secret (where they could use any kind of language or stance they wanted to and could be as bold or daring as they wanted) doesn't change that for them either.

In fact, I think that if they were to have made a public attempt it would have failed, since it requires them to speak against me and rally support, and that effects their reputation (possibly starts a flame) and reveals how they really feel (which is a negative), versus their ability to keep their feelings and emotions hidden so as to protect their otherwise good names and be able to do this with no loss to them.

 

[Midnight Circus]

I lurk a lot, and my ties to this fetish are questionable at best, but I voted "yes." Why? Two simple reasons.

First, people have yet to give me a good reason as to why I should vote "no."

Second, I've been out of high school for awhile now, and this whole issue strikes me as puerile and ridiculous. I'm sure that's an over-simplification of the bigger issue, and, yes, I'm obviously not privy to all the "finer points" of the argument (if they can, truthfully, be considered "finer points" at all), but guess what? I don't really care. To me, the issue is as simple as either giving an artist a forum, or not giving an artist a forum. Everything else is just bluff and bluster that amounts to (pardon the phrase) absolutely dick in the end.

That's my two cents. Take it as you will.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I lurk a lot, and my ties to this fetish are questionable at best, but I voted "yes." Why? Two simple reasons.

First, people have yet to give me a good reason as to why I should vote "no."

Second, I've been out of high school for awhile now, and this whole issue strikes me as puerile and ridiculous. I'm sure that's an over-simplification of the bigger issue, and, yes, I'm obviously not privy to all the "finer points" of the argument (if they can, truthfully, be considered "finer points" at all), but guess what? I don't really care. To me, the issue is as simple as either giving an artist a forum, or not giving an artist a forum. Everything else is just bluff and bluster that amounts to (pardon the phrase) absolutely dick in the end.

That's my two cents. Take it as you will.

And your two cents are appriciated. 🙂

Yes, when you tear away all the excuses, red tape, and BS, you are left with this:

There are two sides of the table.

One is represented by a fringe group of disgrunted artists/users. They hardly represent the whole, and their decisions, at this point, seem arbitrary, spiteful, and personal.

The other side is represented by members who have come to appriciate me and have either for years, or for whatever ammount of time they've known me/my art.

They too do not represent the whole, and their decisions are based on justification, common sense, and positive reenforcement.

We clearly have a case of one side trying to build up and the other trying to tear down.

One side is optimistic and sees the glass as half full and the other is pessimistic and sees the glass as half empty (or completely empty in some cases).

The two sides and their efforts neutralize eachother as neither is in a better position than the other.

Any support I have recieved in public should count. Any complaints I recieve should be done in public as well, so that they should be made to be on equal ground and won't be treated with contempt and suspicion. It should all be very much out in the open.

Here we have the solution. A poll.

It requires (asks) that the user state why they voted that way. If they refuse to post, but choose only to vote, and there are more yes votes and people showed support, than naturally the conclusion is obvious. If the no voters don't post to state why, then their rebutal does not count as a cat has got their tongue.

Enough people wanted the forum, and so, if the staff cares at all what the people think here and now, then its just plain logic that the forum be granted and I take up my place with the others, where, I feel, and others feel, I have had a place all along.

 

[TMF Jeff]

I have very little interest in this thread despite my posting in it. But I will say this: the results of this poll will have nothing to do with how we run the forum.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

With respect, you obviously have an interest here- to demoralize the attention or support this thread/poll would get by making it appear hopeless and in vain.

Otherwise, yes, I agree, the results should have nothing to do with how you run the site (that is to say the TMF) overall. No one is saying it should.

It will show other things, but certainly not that. 🙂

I'm also not suggesting that policy should be changed because the userbase says so or something like that. This isn't about policy or rules, clearly, and it never was. The integrity of the site is not trial or in danger. It would not be over something like this, because this is a good thing, not a bad thing. It harms no one and it makes things easier for so many.

EDIT:

Oh, and didn't you tell me several times how you like my artwork and am glad I'm sharing it? 😉

 

[isabeau]

what i am wondering is this, if Shadowtklr( who btw deserved his own archive some time ago) can get an archive when i was the only person petitioning for him, to my knowledge, and Myriads granted that request after a time, why cant Celtic Emperor have his own archive when it is abundantly clear he has the support of several.. sseems a bit odd to me..

isabeau

 

[MTJpub]

I placed my vote in favor for the artwork archive as a show of support.

However I think we need to respect the decision of our gracious hosts. Let us remember that we are guests here. I think it would be best if this matter was kept private between the parties involved.


Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I placed my vote in favor for the artwork archive as a show of support.

However I think we need to respect the decision of our gracious hosts. Let us remember that we are guests here. I think it would be best if this matter was keep private between the parties involved.


Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

Thank you. 🙂

I would otherwise agree.

"Gracious" is a point of view here, though. Some feel it and gain it's benefits more than others. What then is it for those that don't feel it? Is the simple act of being able to register an account here, a grace?

You, me, and they may just be guests in the technical sense, but we are the lifeforce of this community and if not for us it would not be what it is. Therefore, its my opinion that any "grace" is to be shared equally among people who work so as to help the overall community through contributions.

I am one of those people. No more and no less. I deserve the grace of a forum to store my things just as much as any of our other artists do. To differentiate is in itself ungracious. Grace is supposed to know no bias.

The matter was private, at one time. When I learned there was more to it than simply the mods don't agree (which there is no confirmation on that), and that there was some artist tampering, and they counted but you guys didn't thus, it was an imbalanced/compromised decision, I had to make it public knowledge. These people have a right, at the very least, to know why this decision is the way it is, and to be given a platform with which to voice any discontentment they have with it.

This information would not have been devulged otherwise and the people would be none the wiser. It would have been like a dirty secret and remained so.

Don't think for a minute I enjoy talking about private conversations. I know how it looks, but I know even more so that it is a vital element of these proceedings.

I think as it stands, truth is more important than privacy in this case. Those artists had the right to be anonymous to us all, but what about truth? Did they have a right to count and matter more than you?

The only thing I revealed was what mattered, I don't believe I crossed any moral line, at any point and time, because the nature of the conversation was impersonal at best, and superficial at worst. Theres nothing to talk about in private that we cannot talk about in public.

EDIT:

Also, I have a feeling the yes votes will have come in regardless of this information. 🙂

 

[Midnight Circus]

I placed my vote in favor for the artwork archive as a show of support.

However I think we need to respect the decision of our gracious hosts. Let us remember that we are guests here. I think it would be best if this matter was kept private between the parties involved.


Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

There was a time when hosts would bend-over backwards to please their guests for, without such guests, the hosts would find their homes empty. This is barring insults on the part of guests, mind you, but I don't believe anyone has insulted our "gracious hosts"...to my knowledge, at least, limited as it may be.

Unfortunately, the time of which I speak is gone and has been for ages. Inherited now are times when the tail wags the dog and a man will go so far as to bite off his own nose just to spite his face. Those times are gone, and I will speak of them no longer.

A modest question, though. Is a host that fails to take into regard the wishes of his guests all that gracious? Implying nothing about any and all parties involved, I am willing to bet that such a host is anything but. The same can be said, I'm sure, of a host that tends to certain guests more than others. But that is neither here nor there unless you want it to be.

Take them as you will, the waxings of a man entirely too old for his age.

EDIT: Interestingly enough, we've heard quite a bit from those who have voted in support of such a section. However, those who have voted against such a section have remained silent. Silence is wholly unproductive, and, while I cannot speak for everyone here, I am interested to know why you would vote in the way that you have. It is not a call to judgment or incivility, but rather a curiosity. Rajee has made this a thread so that all may speak on the issue. Please feel free to do so without stigma or criticism.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Grace knows no bias. It is blind. It is good faith. If it can be afforded to someone and then not to another even though their virtue and merit is very similar/the same then its not grace as it is either not given or it is done begrudgingly.

 

[simplyN]

Bouncing about

. . .

 

[MTJpub]

The host pays for the server that runs this site. He pays for all the bandwidth incurred here. This thread and every picture and clip posted on this site costs the host money out of his pocket.

The TMF is home to over 32,000 members. There are hundreds online at any given time. Out of all these members only a tiny handful care enough about this issue to vote in this poll. I think it is a bit of a stretch to consider our host ungracious because he does not bend to the will of a couple of dozen guests.

Our host already bends over backwards for his guests when you take into consideration the time, effort, and money that goes into hosting this site. It is far more expensive than you might imagine. The fact that this site has transformed over the years as a direct result of member feedback and requests speaks volumes.

The graciousness that is so casually dismissed has allowed three threads on this subject to remain on this site despite the fact that the host is being criticized.

I understand that Celtic and a handful of his dedicated fans feel he should have his own art archive and I support that notion. However I think that this is the wrong way to go about doing it.

Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

The host pays for the server that runs this site. He pays for all the bandwidth incurred here. This thread and every picture and clip posted on this site costs the host money out of his pocket.

The TMF is home to over 32,000 members. There are hundreds online at any given time. Out of all these members only a tiny handful care enough about this issue to vote in this poll. I think it is a bit of a stretch to consider our host ungracious because he does not bend to the will of a couple of dozen guests.

Our host already bends over backwards for his guests when you take into consideration the time, effort, and money that goes into hosting this site. It is far more expensive than you might imagine. The fact that this site has transformed over the years as a direct result of member feedback and requests speaks volumes.

The graciousness that is so casually dismissed has allowed three threads on this subject to remain on this site despite the fact that the host is being criticized.

I understand that Celtic and a handful of his dedicated fans feel he should have his own art archive and I support that notion. However I think that this is the wrong way to go about doing it.

Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

No one is disagreeing with that assessement. But in spite of that, favoritism is clearly being shown and this is why this is an issue.

The reasons are quite simple in nature, but allow for so many different sentiments to enter the fray. This is the nature of any community.

As for only a portion of the site having attention on this, I don't believe that has any bearing on this, good or bad. Clearly we cannot expect every single member to care, so therefore this becomes a matter between the people who are involved in it and it is decided by them. Whether that be 30, 20, or as few as 10 people. If only these many people care, then these are the ones that count. The rest of the site really doesn't figure into it, since they are a non-factor.

As for doing this in a better way, what makes you think I haven't already tried that? I did things his way, for months, and I saw I was just getting the runaround. This is the only way to settle the issue without the runaround as this poll will prove several things:

1.) The ratio of people that support/do not support the idea (regardless of whatever imput those artists swayed him with)

2.) Who voted for what is a telling tail in some cases.

3.) If there are more yes votes than no votes, then it proves my point without having to talk to Myriads or anyone else and get just their opinion. It will serve to show this isn't just what I want and my points and the points of others voting yes are all the more valid. The situation transforms from one of speculation to one of facts.

4.) If there are more no votes than yes votes, it may very well prove that now is not the right time for me to have a forum and/or if the no votes are substancially larger than the yes votes, its clear enough people don't want me to have the forum (again, how can you speak against a forum), and not just the supposed artists who didn't want me to have it and so caused this divide in the first place.

5.) This poll goes to show me how close I would have come/would not have come. It's better than an ambiguous statement, from which I cannot walk away.

6.) This poll gives closure to the matter, as the results will be undisputable facts which I can then apply.


None of these 6 things could have/will have been accomplished by doing it the staff's way and just waiting for them to give me a call. Things would be frozen and the aggitation on both sides would have remained. That call may never have came, and I'm not going to wait around for it when I've realized foul play was involved.

If you look at this situation in a broader way, this poll is a good thing, as it ties up loose ends. These loose ends will not have been dealt with otherwise. I know this as a fact. He would have been content to neither say yes or no and allow this to play out for even longer for God knows how long. Theres nothing gracious about that, and using his/their expenses toward the site is a weak cop out. The others got a forum, and he still had to pay for it. This isn't about this website in the larger scheme of things. We're talking about an isolated incident which has an easy answer but people want to deny it.

We have nothing but his word to say he would have considered it more heavily in the future, and yet, at learning artists that complained had something to do with it, I'm sure you can understand how that changes things and how his words were predetermined, made to be compromised, and may very well have been falsified so as to promise whatever he did to the artists without having to give me a direct answer. A classic case of having your cake and eating it too.

Whether he gives me a direct answer now doesn't matter. This poll will reveal more than just the original questions and concerns, and his ambiguity toward giving an honest answer will be transparent.

Win or lose, everything is appeased. That is all I want, that is all we want, and I'm sure thats all the staff wants. They want this gone just as much as I do. That is the only thing we have in common though, it seems.

 

[isabeau]

i dont see anything wrong with a poll about this subject. it is a form of free speech right? and good luck Celtic i am behind you.

isabeau

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I don't want to seem like some super liberal freedom fighter that defies authority whereever it is. Thats not how I am at all. Any of you that are on TTC know that I am a fairly reserved person who doesn't let some things slide and sometimes does.

This is a unique situation, on another site, which seems to be run completely differently though. And because that is so, I have come to adapt to the differences of both sites.

I feel this matter is trying to be passed off far too casually, and the only way to counter that, within reason and fairness, is to show that it means something to some people, just as it doesn't mean something to those trying to write it off.

When I came to be in this situation, it was very apparent how one-sided it was and that some opposition was already in place. And everything I've done/others have done was to bring a balance to it so that both "sides" are represented. To not do that just doesn't seem right, I think.

EDIT:

Thanks again, isabeau. 🙂

 

[MTJpub]

As for only a portion of the site having attention on this, I don't believe that has any bearing on this, good or bad. Clearly we cannot expect every single member to care, so therefore this becomes a matter between the people who are involved in it and it is decided by them. Whether that be 30, 20, or as few as 10 people. If only these many people care, then these are the ones that count. The rest of the site really doesn't figure into it, since they are a non-factor.

I have a problem with this statement.

Thousands of people view the art forums. Just because they are not vocal or better yet wish to avoid internet drama does not make them a non factor. The truth is only a very small portion of the art forum audience care enough about this issue to voice their opinion. Should every person that can get a handful of people to support their view get to dictate what happens on this site?

There is a reason voting is usually an anonymous process. The same principle is true here. As a result this poll is stacked in your favor because of human nature. No one wants to be viewed as the bad guy. Very few people will vote no if they are going to have to submit to public scrutiny. This makes the result of this poll skewed in your favor no matter how you want to paint the picture.

This entire issue is presented in a one sided manner because you elected to take a private matter and make it public. Everything that transpired is told from your point of view. As we all know there are two sides to every story.

The TMF should not be forced to respond because you decided to take the matter public when you did not get what you wanted.

The TMF is a privately owned and funded. It has the right to decided who and what they will host. No one else has that right. This basic principle seems to have been forgotten.

No good will come out of this. Already it appears there was a need to remove the thread “No More TMF” from the Tickle Theater forum. That thread was filled with anti-tmf sentiment that was not confined to the hosts but also called the TMF community cliquish and unfriendly. This of course coming from a newly formed anti-tmf clique. Ironic huh?

This has turned into a self-serving crusade that I can no longer support.

Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I have a problem with this statement.

Thousands of people view the art forums. Just because they are not vocal or better yet wish to avoid internet drama does not make them a non factor. The truth is only a very small portion of the art forum audience care enough about this issue to voice their opinion. Should every person that can get a handful of people to support their view get to dictate what happens on this site?

There is a reason voting is usually an anonymous process. The same principle is true here. As a result this poll is stacked in your favor because of human nature. No one wants to be viewed as the bad guy. Very few people will vote no if they are going to have to submit to public scrutiny. This makes the result of this poll skewed in your favor no matter how you want to paint the picture.

This entire issue is presented in a one sided manner because you elected to take a private matter and make it public. Everything that transpired is told from your point of view. As we all know there are two sides to every story.

The TMF should not be forced to respond because you decided to take the matter public when you did not get what you wanted.

The TMF is a privately owned and funded. It has the right to decided who and what they will host. No one else has that right. This basic principle seems to have been forgotten.

No good will come out of this. Already it appears there was a need to remove the thread “No More TMF” from the Tickle Theater forum. That thread was filled with anti-tmf sentiment that was not confined to the hosts but also called the TMF community cliquish and unfriendly. This of course coming from a newly formed anti-tmf clique. Ironic huh?

This has turned into a self-serving crusade that I can no longer support.

Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

I don't know why we're having this conversation. There is no doubt that the site is much larger than the sum of those participating in this event. But those people do not count if they are not wanting to have anything to do with this. We can only rely on what the people that do have something have to say. This is how the others got their forum, and thats how they were nominated.

Thats all I'm saying. It didn't take the whole of this site to get them their forum, only a few. And the hypocracy to be exposed is that when the same situation is applied to aqquire those necessary votes and support, they magically don't count simply because these folks are more verbal than expected about it. That should speak volumes as well.

As for the TMF thread, I am the one who deleted it. So the "need" was completely my opinion that it should be removed as no one was complaining about it. The point wasn't to bash this site, but rather vent my frustration over the matter, which is what it was about and I was in the right to. I fail to see how that has anything to do with this site, as most of the people who have voted are not even from TTC. I cannot be held accountable if other persons decide they want to make it about something else. I did see where it was going so I deleted it.

As for this being onesided in my favor, its no more onesided that way than it is for the people who made it a point to try and prevent this from happening by going to him to complain. It was stacked against me before it even really began.

As for voting no, you are not required to state why, it was only encouraged so as to give a means of a discussion. No one is being forced to vote any particular way.

This poll is here for whomever has interest in it.

The yes votes outnumber the no votes for no other reason than I deserve the forum, people like my art, and see me as worthy. They didn't have to vote that way, and if they were having second thoughts, they could have easily changed their mind.

I appriciate your concern, but this matter is as fair and clean as it's going to get. Myriads can't make it any more fair and neither can I.

The only solution is a poll where people have a choice to vote either way. It makes it the decision of the people that participate as these are the people who would naturally show which opinion is favored, then it would be presented to the mods, and they would make a decision. If the whole site could weigh in on this that would be great, but its unrealistic and its never happened and never will on any internet site ever.

This situation is unique, but is by no means far-fetched or corrupt.

The fact of the matter is people have a choice, and it's as simple as more people wanting me to have the forum than not. If that upsets the opposition, how is that my fault? More people want me to have the forum than people that don't.

On a personal level, the whole point for me was to prove that not as many people are against it as perhaps was being implied by being denied initially.

This is designed to paint a much clearer picture of what is true and not true in the minds of the people this concerns, and so far the results are undeniable and completely honest. These people gain nothing by voting for or against the forum.

Theres no need to complicate this or use out of site sentiments to fuel a debate it has no place in.

This is a black and white, yes or no poll.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Also, I didn't start this thread. Rajee did. I didn't even know about it at first.

So I only ever started posting when I saw there was another show of support in the form of a poll. A poll was something that hadn't been done yet, and it seemed to me that it would be much more truthful than mere back and forth conversation.

In regards to being anonymous, these people could have easily sent messeges to the mods the way those artists did and this poll wouldn't exist.

I can only assume the staff does not have the time to listen to a debate about why I should not get it or why I should in private. PM boxes would fill up too soon, some people would be skipped, and some people's messeges wouldn't go through. It becomes an uncontained he said she said deal.

It makes sense then that a poll was made instead, and rajee's logic makes perfect sense to me. Sure, you lose your anonymous status, but it makes it easier to handle and more practical. The mods are not bogged down with personal conversations, and the userbase can be assured their messeges get through and their opinion is properly represented in the poll results.

Besides, other threads of the same nature were public. Theres no reason this one shouldn't be either. Plus, because its a poll, people don't have to post, just vote. Without a poll, it means they would have to post why or why not if they wanted to be heard.

Thats much more "political" and confrontational that this is. It's even more bias, in fact, since you know that only supporters of that artist are going to post. This poll allows everyone to be represented if they so wish.

It would have been quite different if the only option was yes.