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should Michael Moore shut up or does he have a good point?

Wrong. It makes it to the big screen because of the $$$$ backing him
much of it his own....(earned in a capitalistic country no less) a gamble that more money will be made...

He gets people talking because he lies and twists facts...

He doesnt do this for the sake of bringing things to light or he would do so truthfully....

If you think all movies that make it to the big screen "have a point" then you are sadly mistaken .....many dont even have plots....lol
It's OK Ray, it looks like the public audience may be telling him to shut-up anyway. The movie only brought in $5 mil over the weekend which doesn’t even cover his midnight snack budget for a month. :munch::chocrabbit:

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/h...s-comedy-for-1-recipe-9m-friday-25m-weekend/#
 
You bring up a good point. I mean why should I pay doctors when police and fireman are free? is it because meds are expensive? I find that hard to believe!

firemen and police are solely paid with our tax dollars... the equipment they use to treat us at the hospital can be expensive so we actually have to pay them. And have to help pay for the doctors and nurses that helped us.
 
In my opinion what make this evil is the idea that someone would capitalize (no pun intended) off of someone else's misfortune.. Case in point: There was a case in Illinois about 8-10 years ago envolving a Walmart manager. It was reported that the manager worked 37 hr over 2.5 days. 16- 18 hour days were normal for all walmart managers. He help a customer haul a big screen TV out to her car. The manager walked back into the store and collasped of a heart attack right in front of the "Greeter". The manager was not obese by the way. Walmart said "his long hours had nothing to do with his death". The wife had to borrow money for the burrial while walmart collected a little over $300,000. If this guy had died at home or on vaction I would understand why the company wouldnt care, but the guy died on the job and basicly walmart showed no remorse. They didnt even send a condolence card to the family. Talking about kicking someone when there down. I clearly understand logic. Im the one preaching to others that everyone needs to work for what the get and that no one owe's them "Jack". But there is a little thing called compasion. And as far as you being blessed, Im sticking to my story. I think that you're tring to come off as heartless but Ive been around awhile and I can see through it. You're a very smart man I know that you know right from wrong. Dont let your inteligence over-shadow conscience....

God Bless

Did I read that correctly? You think I am trying to come off as heartless? Why in the world would I want to do that? I enjoy debating with you, you bring up reasonable counterpoints. But that seems an unnecessary thing to say to me. I am not heartless and i certainly don't mean to come off that way.

Anyway, that Walmart story is fucked up. And, I won't deny that Walmart mistreats its employees. I'm not well-versed enough to really speak to the point, but enough has been made about that corporation that I'm sure they have some serious employee rights violations going on. But I don't believe that an example like this is a way of condemning the practice of peasant policies.

To say they capitalize off the others' misfortune to me implies that the policy holder wants the employee to die. Otherwise, although they do see money come in, it's not really fair to say that. If i have life insurance on my spouse, you wouldn't say I capitalize off their death. I understand that corporations don't necessarily "care" like spouses do, but the insurance still serves as a protection, and they still want to be "out of the money" so to speak - that is, they would rather pay the premiums and not have the employee die.

The Walmart example is one where they practically worked the worker to death, and that coupled with the insurance policy is truly troubling. But, unless I see statistics instead of anecdotal example, I strongly believe this is the exception and not the rule.
 
Actually yes . If someone goes in with something like appendicitis to the drs it doesnt matter if they have insurance or not all they care about is treating the patient the same thing happens here they get taken care of right away . However I do agree that our insurance policys are a bit fucked up and that those do need to be fixed . But from a 100% medical/treatment point of view it doesnt matter at the time a person gets treated no matter what .

Actually, that's only true for emergencies. In many cases, if you don't have a means to pay, you get quick fixes for most things.

For example, unless surgery is the only option for survival, you're more likely to get a medication to deal with your health issues even if said medication is nowhere near as effective as the surgery.

The difference with a universal system is that it's set up first and foremost to provide preventive care, so that you're much less likely to need something major like a surgery in the first place.
 
I love people exposing the truth. Ever see the Penn & Teller show, "Bullshit!"? For the most part, quality. objective, intelligent, and insightful.

Penn & Teller distort things quite a bit as well -- particularly concerning environmental issues.

He does not change the way i put on my pants. So i don't even watch any of his stuff.

It's good to know that you're open-minded.

LOL Most dont need Moore to "provoke" them into thinking.....

Those that do....well....good luck to them...they will get no truth from his type...

Extremists are dangerous on all sides as too many take their word as gospel and dont do any further research...

They see a movie of watch a "news" broadcast or listen to a nationally syndicated radio show and blindly accept what they see and hear a fact when in reallity most of it is far from the truth...

Sorry if I must disagree

People should certainly cross-reference things, but that includes viewing things you don't normally agree with.

Believe it or not, I actually watch O'Reilly sometimes to get an idea of what he's thinking and what he's looking at to see where he gets his stances.

Also, the Drudge Report is something I explore to see "the other side."
 
Both.

He frequently has good points, but has all the likeability and charm of a stuffed iguana and worse timing than ... someone with not very good timing. A shame, but most people react to a person's charisma, rather than their ability to pin a dipshit to a board.
 
I think he has made good points in all his films. He is the first to admit that some of what he says is opinion. I will say this, if you go to his website, he has all the links to back the facts he presents.

His website also claims his gun scene in a bank during Bowling for columbine was legit

Yet every other source stated that he was given a voucher for a gun and there were no actual guns in the bank

Just cuz he "proves" his lunacy doesn't make it fact

I can site pro and anti abortion statistics and numbers and both sides will say I am right, whichever they which to fit into their agenda
 
Just wanted to throw more wood onto the fire


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I personally don't think that he should shut up. Even though I don't agree with a lot of his political stances, this is America and he can make whatever shlock he wants to make and say whatever shlock he wants to say.

I think at this point, most people are well aware that his documentaries are going to be distorted and slanted to his point of view.

Freedom of speech in any and all of it's forms is protected by our constitution. A wiser man than me once said something to the tune of "Even though I do not agree with what you say, I'll fight to the death to make sure you are allowed to say it."

Not fan of his, but that's not the point.
 
To Stir things up even more

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I personally don't think that he should shut up. Even though I don't agree with a lot of his political stances, this is America and he can make whatever shlock he wants to make and say whatever shlock he wants to say.

I think at this point, most people are well aware that his documentaries are going to be distorted and slanted to his point of view.

Freedom of speech in any and all of it's forms is protected by our constitution. A wiser man than me once said something to the tune of "Even though I do not agree with what you say, I'll fight to the death to make sure you are allowed to say it."

Not fan of his, but that's not the point.

You'd be shocked how many people take it for truth cuz "Its a documentary so it must be true!"

Pretty much he is the liberal equivalent of Hannity/O'Riley
 
Just wondering what everyone thinks of the guy. As for me I'm kind of on the line. I mean he brings up good points but A lot of the times I wonder where he gets his facts.

This is exactly where I am at. He makes great movies! Creates interesting discussions and askes good questions. But not too sure about the facts he brings in, the changes he makes, the order he puts things in and what he leaves out.

Most good documentaries do have a slant to them. The people who make them have a passion, a cause or a point of view. But they still remain accurate, generally. His... well, it's hard to be sure now, and he did it to himself.
 
Did I read that correctly?
To say they capitalize off the others' misfortune to me implies that the policy holder wants the employee to die. Otherwise, although they do see money come in, it's not really fair to say that. If i have life insurance on my spouse, you wouldn't say I capitalize off their death. I understand that corporations don't necessarily "care" like spouses do, but the insurance still serves as a protection, and they still want to be "out of the money" so to speak - that is, they would rather pay the premiums and not have the employee die.

.

Having a policy on your spouse is a totally differtent situtation. You and the spouse are related, and have a common goal of raising a family. If you or your spouse dies, that's one less income in the family. The insurance policy is there to keep the family from being broke or homeless. What would make this a capitalistic situation is if the surving spouse were to run off with the money and not take help the family with the burrial, mortage ect... In my humble opinoin, if there is peasant policy on the the worker, the least these companies could do is help with the furneral coast. Im sure 8-10 thousand dollars would be a "drop in the bucket" for walmart if they were due to receive a few hundred thousand dollars...
 
Bowling for Columbine happened to turn out to be a great movie.

But he uses unbelievably unfair tactics to convince his viewers. He is also largely retarded.

I'm usually fairly diplomatic around here; I don't like getting involved in controversial discussion in a forum like this. But I'm prepared to take any and all abuse here and go to town on it.

I can't wait to see his new movie about capitalism, for the sheer entertainment value. But, he is making misleading (and actually flat-out inaccurate) statements.

Banks aren't evil. And these "de-ri-va-tives" that he loves mentioning (usually with requisite hand gestures to quote them) are not instruments of evil and greed. From what I understand (I haven't seen the movie), Moore makes his point by asking some high-level people at these financial institutions what a derivative is. They bumble and can't really answer. I have been auditing these things for over 3 years, and if a fat slob with no background asked me to describe them, in a nutshell, on camera, I'm sure I would look just as ignorant. But I'm not.

He describes derivatives as 'bets' where our mortgages serve as the collateral. One thing i want to make very clear is that NO party is this multi-party transaction flow WANTS a mortgager to default. And he implies the very opposite. Without getting too specific, the result of this whole convoluted process, cradle to grave, is that more people were able to get mortgages. Obviously there were terrible oversights in creditworthiness. A lot of people made mistakes. But, the amount of people who actually predicted this is super-limited. To my knowledge, there are like 4 genius goldman bankers who were saying this before it happened. The net result of this whole process is more mortgages and the facilitation of business among people who deal with investment banks. You can say that it's a waste of smart people's minds to engage in banking instead of creating goods, I won't argue that, but to call this evil and greedy is outrageous. If people want to take their genius brain and use it to make a fuck-load of money, that is their prerogative. You don't have to like it. And yes I suppose it is greedy, but if I were capable of doing it and could swing the amount of hours they work I probably would do it too.

I probably haven't been too clear here, I'm a bit up in arms about this issue. But, if anyone disagrees or has a question on my view I'm more than happy to engage. If you call me an idiot or some such insult, I won't be so happy to.

For what it's worth, I don't work in an industry that engages in credit derivatives. I audit many of these companies, and our firm has had the unfortunate but ethical responsibililty to tell them they have to post enormous losses because they hold them.

Apparently you've never been raped by the banks before. The banks have screwed my family over multiple times and we are always helpless to do anything about it. They purposely hold our money during the times when we need it most and carefully choose the order in which they clear our account just so they can charge us with fees that wouldn't even exist if they didn't rearrange our expenses for their personal gain. We already have very little to live on each month as it is (living on about $15,000 a year) and it royally pisses me off when I'm powerless to stop such an injustice. :doh: We may be well below the poverty line, but it's not like we're deprived of the essentials and a few luxuries here and there, so this isn't a "poor me" rant. lol ^^;; And I don't want to debate you or anything. Just stating that my family has been f*cked by the banks time and time again, so based on my personal experience, Michael Moore isn't a liar in that regard. :shrug:
 
Apparently you've never been raped by the banks before. The banks have screwed my family over multiple times and we are always helpless to do anything about it. They purposely hold our money during the times when we need it most and carefully choose the order in which they clear our account just so they can charge us with fees that wouldn't even exist if they didn't rearrange our expenses for their personal gain. We already have very little to live on each month as it is (living on about $15,000 a year) and it royally pisses me off when I'm powerless to stop such an injustice. :doh: We may be well below the poverty line, but it's not like we're deprived of the essentials and a few luxuries here and there, so this isn't a "poor me" rant. lol ^^;; And I don't want to debate you or anything. Just stating that my family has been f*cked by the banks time and time again, so based on my personal experience, Michael Moore isn't a liar in that regard. :shrug:

everything i said in my post that you quoted pertains to investment banks. they are the ones who deal with derivative instruments (your mortgage may be underlying collateral, but theyre not the ones fucking you).

your situation sounds awful. are they violating the terms of any agreements that you signed? if so, they should be shut down. if not, well, we can think they're bad greedy people, but they aren't a charity.

and although I don't live below the poverty line, I have been SEVERELY financially impacted by this subprime collapse. I don't need anyone who doesn't know me telling me how blessed I am or that I haven't been affected.
 
I found Bowling for Columbine and Sicko both entertaining. However, that's all Micheal Moore's movies are to me, entertainment. If I'm really curious about the issues behind the movie, I'd rather do my own research from more objective and in-depth sources.

In terms of entertainment value, his movies are pretty good, with the exception of Fahrenheit 9/11. I had no objections to it politically, but it was one hell of a boring movie.
 
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As a side note... here is another video featuring John Stossel... 😉

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As a side note... here is another video featuring John Stossel... 😉

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Lowlifes do as lowlifes do.
 
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