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Special effects: Old School Vs. New School

BigJim

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Compare two different sets of classic films: Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings.

George Lucas has gone almost totally to digital cameras now and almost totally to CG effects. Peter Jackson on the other hand stayed with celluloid, and although using some CG effects, did a huge amount of Old School stuff using camera angles and older techniques.

Now for me LOTR beats the living shite out of the recent star Wars films, especially Attack of the Clones. The CG Yoda in AOTC looks crap compred to the puppet version in The Phantom Menace. It looks like a cartoon figure, like in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Admittedly they couldn't have done the sword fight with Christopher Lee using a puppet, but that's about the only scene. AOTC was like watching a two hour cartoon for the most part.


What are your opinions on this y'all? Which do you like better? Why? What do you think the killer differences are?

Answers on a postcard.
 
Me? I long for the old days when a man wore a rubber suit in the Godzilla and Gamera movies and they destroyed toy tanks😀
 
I'll take the old school special effects over the computer-generated crap any day. Case and point.....check out the car chase in "The Bourne Supremecy". All filmed with real cars and may be one of the greatest car chase scenes of all-time. And NO blue screens!


Drew
 
Well actually Lord of the rings used alot of cg compopsits, CGI, digital animation. I think all three films individually element and composite count are up there with each of the last two Star Wars films. The only few things that Jackson did in camera was some forced persepective shots in the first film. But that was about it. And I for one liked the CGI Yoda way more than that, whatever it was, in the Phantom Menace.

As far as EFX, there are some things that you obviously can only do with CGI and Computer Composits. But there are things that I think look better when done old school. There are actually some shots in Aliens that still look better than anything in STar Wars. And there are a few shots in Independance Day that where done on the cheap. There is one shot that no one even knew was an in camera effect shot. It is one of those shots that most EFX artists and Supervisors think is one of the best. I am not going to say what it is but no one even caught that it was an in camera effect.

I am still a fan of front screen/rear screen for some things. Cameron is a master with the rear screen. There are a few shots in The Abyss that where rear screen shots and they are very undetectable.

Bluescreen, although getting better, still has that cookie cutter look to me. Although, I think once Lucas gets "Showtime" to take the edge pixel of the object being composited, and the nearest pixel that it sits over on teh background, and then the piuxel in the middle is a comination of both pixels to it's side will we see really convinving composits. I am hoping it is to that point in ROTS. At least that is what he had said he was hoping it would be in an interview for AOTC. And once CGI can be done with all Radiosity, then we will really see some very convinving CGI characters. I still think that the T-Rex shots in Jurrassic Park are still more convincing then stuff they have come out with recentley, even with stuff done in both of it's sequels. But I think that was there weren't that many shots, and the shots they did do the obsessed on forever. And the velocirapter kitchen scene still is very convincing.

I think Matte World and 4-Ward Productions is still the best at doing in camera and old school stuff. But the work that Peter Ellenshaw and Eustace Lycett did in Disney's 1959 Darby O'Gill and the Little People is still considered to be some of the best in camera effects ever done on film. There are some things that no one can figure out how they did it in camera. Ellenshaw's son was SPFX Sup on Disney's 1992 Honey I Blew Up The Baby, and he and his dad sat and watch O'Gill to see how he did it and Ellenshaw Sr. forgot how they did a few of the things and they could figure it out looking at it now.
 
TklDuo-Drew said:
I'll take the old school special effects over the computer-generated crap any day. Case and point.....check out the car chase in "The Bourne Supremecy". All filmed with real cars and may be one of the greatest car chase scenes of all-time. And NO blue screens!


Drew

I think the longest chase scene was from the "Blues Brothers"
 
giantfan121262 said:
I think the longest chase scene was from the "Blues Brothers"


Yeah, and that was probably (in my opinion) the greatest car chase scene of all-time. Love the part with Elwood:"Jake...Jake, I gotta pull over..", then drives thru the guard rail over to the other side of the highway. Into a tractor-trailor!


Drew
 
Give me good old-fashioned rubber mechanical monsters over any CGI crud. The effects from The Thing with Kurt Russell will beat any computerized monster.

The Sean Man
 
buggs said:
Well actually Lord of the rings used alot of cg compopsits, CGI, digital animation. I think all three films individually element and composite count are up there with each of the last two Star Wars films. The only few things that Jackson did in camera was some forced persepective shots in the first film. But that was about it.

Oh granted JAckson DID use CG a lot, but he used Old School a hell of a lot more than he needed to otherwise. CG orcs for instance were more confined to mass-battle scenes than individual shots. Hundreds of actors went through the torture of the makeup chair for those movies.

And given that all three films lasted longer than three hours (closer to 4 hours in the versions I've got, cos I wanted the extra scenes), having a similar count to ones just a shade under two isn't anything to be ashamed of.

I personally hate blue and green screen shots. I find the special effects of the originals to be more convincing than the new ones.
 
As far as quality and entertainment purposes, today's SFX are light-years ahead of the old stuff...Cheaper, quicker, and there are far more talented artists that can produce these FX. But when I watch Ray Harryhausen's "One Million Years BC," "Valley of Gwangi" or any of his "Sinbad" fliks, knowing how long he and his crew toiled, and seeing the expressiveness, the almost human qualities spliced into the animated creatures, well, today's FX artists seem to have neglected these details for the most part. Still, one must not forget, there are thousands of FX available now that never would have been attempted in Harryhausen's day.

Rxx
 
I guess it's all up to the individual. I find the effects in AOTC to look entirely uconvincing compared to something like the Battle of Hoth in ESB. If they'd filmed ESB today it would have been done entirely in some sweaty studio in front of blue and green screens with fake snow being blown across them by an industrial fan. The original was filmed on location in Scandinavia and will ALWAYS look better than CG created surroundings.

That's my main problem with CG; it's far too primitive to look as real as the real thing. *shrugs* Huge amounts of LOTR used real locations, with CG icing on the real scenery's cake, whereas AOTC was almost entirely CG in every respect.
 
TklDuo-Drew said:
Yeah, and that was probably (in my opinion) the greatest car chase scene of all-time. Love the part with Elwood:"Jake...Jake, I gotta pull over..", then drives thru the guard rail over to the other side of the highway. Into a tractor-trailor!


Drew


No, Drew, the greatest car chase scene was in the Frnech Connection😀
 
Big Jim, actually when I said that each film had the same amount of bluescreen shots as the lat two Star Wars, I meant each of the Lord of the Rings films individually had as many shots in them each as the tart wars films. There was alot of bluescreen shots in each of those films. Also, they didn't do too many CGI orc shots as they didn't have the skin code perffected till The Two Towers. In fact, a month before the final cut was to be delivered, Jackson had all of Gollum's shots to be re-rendered as they had just figured out a realistic skin. Yeah, Lucas has alot more CGI characters, but that is because the characts in his films are aliens and are supposed to have things as multi-articulated legs, really fat bodies. basically different Alien bodies. And it is actually cheaper for him to do those effects now as an animated CGI character then to do an animitronic on set. The orcs were supposed to be human form, so it was easier to take actors and put them in makeup. But when you think about the amount of money it takes to sculpt the design, take the mold, run the pieces in latex, then hire the actors and makeup people to make it all come alive as opposed to the one person sculptina small maquette, scanning it, then another person doing the skin, and then one person doing the animation, it is far cheaper to go CGI.

Also, the original trilogy had alot of bluescreen shots in them too. I am glad they cleaned recomposited the Hoth Battle scenes for the Empire Special Edition, but I can still see the background bleeding through the cockpits. I also for the life of me do not understand why Lucas did not clean up the garbage mattes around the TIE fighters during the trench runs. I saw a making of the Special Editions on FOX in 1997, and he redid shots that I think where the best bluescreen shots originally, but failed to correct these glarring garbage matttes that people have been complaining about for years. And they are more pronounced on a television. He didn't even fid them up for the DVD's. Just don't get it.

Again, if Lucas got showtime to merge the outer pixel of the forground object that he is compositing with the pixel it sits next to in the background that it is composited over, then we will see some really good bluescreen compostes. It would be as good as the CGI elements that are already on a clear background in composites.
 
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Que?

Buggs, English please dude! Garbage Mattes? I thought that was a rug that stopped rubbish getting on a clean floor! 😕
 
natural tickler said:
No, Drew, the greatest car chase scene was in the Frnech Connection😀
Hey! Don't forget about the terrific car chase through San Francisco in Bullet!

Also, Trexx mentioned Harryhausen and crew. Actually, one of the most amazing things about many of Harryhausen's films is that he worked on the vast majority of the effects on his own.

Finally, Buggs mentioned the wondrous affordability of the CGI. I'm not seeing it. Why are these movies costing a bazillion $'s to make if the pixels are so cheap? Coke and strippers for the computer geeks working on the FX?

Say, speaking of chases. Anybody seen the incredibly weak Torque? The motorcycle chase through the city at the end looked more like a Atari video game than a movie. Yawn.
 
IMO, there is a time and a place for both new AND old-school special effects. The real challenge facing directors today is selecting when to use each of them...
 
asutickler said:
IMO, there is a time and a place for both new AND old-school special effects. The real challenge facing directors today is selecting when to use each of them...

Yep, right tools for the right job at the right time.

To use the example that's floating around here of Attack of the Clones, to even come close to doing battle scenes on that scale with physical effects would have been an absolute nightmare. In that instance, while the tech might not be quite as good as we'd like at this point, there really isn't any other way to present mass battle scenes like that without it. Just to take the AOTC / LOTR thing a step father, the reason Jackson could get away with filming in real locations is that New Zeland can do a convincing "earth-a-thousand-years-ago" impression 😉 Outside of fairly basic desert / snow / jungle settings it's very hard to find a suitable location for outer space sci-fi. Cloud City from Empire jumps to mind, as does Geonosis (sp?) in AOTC and Corruscent (can't be bothered to check spelling).

Personally I like real-for-real when it can be done. One look at the Abyss shows what stunning results can be delivered that way. But it's that fine line between what's possible and what's practical (the Abyss was definately NOT on the practical side of that line) that plays the most important part. Certainly, in my opinion, I'm very glad Lucas went the digital route with the Star Wars prequels. The first time we see the Gungan city is one of those cinematic moments that's going to stay with me for a long, long time...
 
Oh fuck it, I give up.



Lovely innit? start a nice discussion and every fucker goes technical on you... 😀
 
A garbage matte is a rough, simple matte that isolates unwanted elements from the primary element in an image. Back in the phto-chemical days of special effects (that means pre-digital), in order to make models move, it was mounted onto a blue pylon and the camera moved on motion control tracks, giving the model the apearance of movement. Alot of times the camera would have to move 30 feet away from a model to get the apearance of a model doing a flyby and then flying into the distance. Since the lighting of the bluewscreen wa paramount to pull a decent matte, the bluescreen wouldn't be that big. So when the camera pulled away you would see the outside of the bluescreen, and the motion control tracks, lighting rigs to light the model, etc. in order to easily remove those, animators in the rotoscope department would draw onto animation cells a border within the bluescreen, but around the model, and then color that area outside with pure black ink. Most cases they wouldn't do one for each frame, just as many as needed during the move to hide anything outside the bluescreen area. When the optical department would pull a matte from the bluescreen film, they would put a red filter into the optical printer and composite that onto high contrast black and white film. On black and white film, purple registers as black, so the bluescreen would black, but the model would still register on the film. From this they would pull the different holdout mattes (the different plugs that they burn into the different elements to make all black aroudn the model, and a black hole the shape of the model over the background so that when they compsoite them in the optical printer, the images go together like a puzzle. However, the red filter would only take out the blue screen itself, and anything outside of the bluescreen area described above would still be in the frame. This is what the garbage matte is for. It is for covering them up in the optical printer during the final composites. In the final stages of optical compositing, they would take the original bluescreen image, along with the different light passes (usually lighting a model takes 2 to 3 different passes. One for the sun light, one for the shaddow area, and one to try to cover the areas that have bluescreen spill on the model, as well as any internal lights the model has. Each pass is exposed on the optical printer in successive order with the holdout matte and garbage matter over that. Now, the black that is created from the red filter over the blue onto B/W film is a different shade of black to the one made by the black ink from the garbage matter. Therefore, when you composite the final shot, you will see what lookes like ghostly splotches around the models over the background. Look at the TIE fighters in the Death Start Trench run and you will see a ghostly sort of form around the ships. And sice each ships had to be shot seperatately, you will see a different one for each ship. This is the film registering the difference between the garbage matte black and the matte pulled from the bluescreen. I know i probably confused you more but that is the most layman of terms to explain it.

Now imagine the time if takes to do this for each ship. Ken Ralston, who is a special effects supervisor, but was compositing supervisior on all three OT Star Wars films went a little cuckoo working on the final space battle scene on Return of the Jedi. The one shot of the Tie fighters flying up to the Mellenium Falcon and the shot of the falcon flying through the swarm of Tie fighters. That had probably 100 models in that one shot alone. Each model was a seperate element. Then you had the mattes, holdout mattes for each element, and the garbage mattes. You also had the laser animation, the moving starfileds, moving Death Star, etc. There must have been a few hundred pieces of film composited together just to make that one shot. Ken Ralston was working literally 20 to 22 hours a day. He went so cukoo at one point that he took of his white Nike shoe, shot it and composited it into one of the shots as a Star Destroyer. If you look real close it is there. It is a shot looking at the shot from the front.

In the old days if it was a bluescreen shot with a person they would have to print those frames onto a 4 pin aimation frame and rotoscope (draw a black outline and paint black) around the people. This was another form of garbage matte, just in the shape of the person for every frame. Sometimes they would have to do it for bodyparts that had bluescreen bleed, like the nose, hair, etc. For tron there was one guy who was responsible for rotoing the character RAM. The actor was walking down the street and a guy he had never met before walked up to him and said "You're Dan Shor" The actor said "Yes I am. Do I know you?" And the guy said "I hate your nose." And Danny Shor said "What?" And the guy said "I am the rotoscope animator on tron that is working on your mattes and I have been working on you for 6 months and I hate your nose." This one guy had been working for 6 months on just his character and the film wasn't done yet.

For Superman, there was a rumor that animators went blind painting out the wires for each flying shot. In those days they couldnt just do wire removal like they can now, and each part of teh frame the wire went over had to be painted the exact color of as the colors around the wires. If they didn't match, they had to repaint the whole frame again. and they had to do this for every single frame that wires showed up in. That is 24 frames a second. And some of the fling rigs had from 8 to ten cables holding Reeve up.

With digital technology, the carbage matte is just painting blue over all of those things around the bluescreen with the same shade of blue that the bluescreen is in the shot. Therefore no halos around the objects.
 
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But also too, the battle scenes in AOTC could have been done live action, but Lucas really wants to get to all digital. All of the storm troopers are digital. He could have eaily made the suits as he had the other films and had actors doing the characters, but he deemed that every single storm trooper you see in AOTC, even the ones just standing around in the background in the ship with Anakin and Obi Wan, are digital. Not one clone suit was made and shot for the film except for the one they scanned for the animation department, which was actually a statue and not a suit. This is a Lucas thing. Yes it would have cost more to do it all live action in a desert with digital matte paintings for the terrain and sky, but Lucas didn't want to spend the money and relocate to a desert to do that. I also suspect that every time in the previous films the actors had a hard time navigating in the storm trooper suits, and there are alot of shots strewn throughout the OT of them bumping into walls, etc. This is something that Lucas has always laughed about but at the same time dreaded. He went in and fixed alot of those shots in the Special Editions. But it has always been one of those things for him. On the one hand he saved the money not making the suits, hiring the actors to go into the suits, and dragging a crew to the desert location with explosions and all, but then he had to spend money creating all of that stuff in the comptuer. That crossed over to a few different departments to do that and takes months to create the landscape, storm troopers, animation, explosions, etc, in digital, as well as the carious atmospheric elements to create a convincing shot. I don't think he saved any money doing that part of the film the way he did.

It's like Scorsese said about he and Lucas differences in style. Scorcese would rather build a big set and have actors on it and see what the actors create in the real environment to the scene from his direction. Lucas wants to shoot on a bluescreen stage and then create the set and background people later so that he can direct everything else the way he exactly wants and to change things, and not be married to what he got in camera.
 
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