State takes away rights of parents again

[casper314]

Your trying to isolate a certain group of people; however, there's a wide range of individuals who have bad reactions to this medication.

This remind me of my time in the Army; we was told we was going to receive a shot which would help protect us from chemical weapons. The odds of someone having a bad reaction to the shot was 1 out of 1000; however, that one person became so ill he ended up with a Medical Discharge.

By your thinking. It's OK for that one person to almost lose their life just for the rest to take drug that may or may not work? Just because some big pharmaceutical company can test their drugs.


***As for my wife; she became sick because of the shoot; when you introduce a virus into someone system; you will have a bad reaction. But, i'm only her husband I wouldn't know what caused it. 😀

Some or more serious than others

A small number of people with egg allergies can have a serious allergic reaction to the flu shot. People with known egg allergies should not get the flu shot. For people who don't yet know if they have an egg allergy, any such reaction will happen within about 15 minutes of getting the shot and probably almost immediately, while you are still close to professional medical care.



People get sick all the time, whether they get a flu shot or not. If your wife suffered cold or flu-like symptoms for more than a day, this was almost certainly a coincidence and had nothing to do with getting the flu shot.

 

[Icycle]

This remind me of my time in the Army; we was told we was going to receive a shot which would help protect us from chemical weapons. The odds of someone having a bad reaction to the shot was 1 out of 1000; however, that one person became so ill he ended up with a Medical Discharge.

You are reasoning from anecdote, and from a case that isn't particularly relevant to the mandatory flu shots. When you join the Army, you automatically consent to a lot of things that are risky or even deadly. Immunizations are just one of the many risks you are consenting to.

I'm not sure what the shot was is supposed to help protect against chemical weapons, but if the Army has determined that a 1 in 1000 chance at incapacitating an otherwise healthy soldier during non-combat conditions in order to reduce the risk of incapacitating soliders during combat if they are exposed to chemical weapons, I don't think I can argue with their reasoning. Being in the Army is risky, even if you aren't in combat. But this is a topic for a different thread.

By your thinking. It's OK for that one person to almost lose their life just for the rest to take drug that may or may not work? Just because some big pharmaceutical company can test their drugs.

Where are you getting the idea that the flu shot is some kind of medical experiement? While I certainly support appropriate human trials of drugs and vaccines, that isn't what we are talking about here. The flu shot has already been tested, many times. It has found to be both safe and effective. The chance of getting the flu and having a serious complication if you don't get the vaccine is much higher than the chance any serious complication from the flu shot if you do get it.

***As for my wife; she became sick because of the shoot; when you introduce a virus into someone system; you will have a bad reaction. But, i'm only her husband I wouldn't know what caused it. 😀

Just out of curiousity, what kind of illness did your experience after getting the flu shot? And is it your personal opinion or that of your doctor that her illness was caused by the flu shot?

As I have said several times, the flu shot uses a killed virus. The worst reaction that you can expect from a killed virus is a mild immune response that lasts for a day or so. Both theory and scientific evidence, and lots of real world experience with the flu shot support this assertion.

We are exposed to lots of different pathogens all the time, and it is entirely possible that your wife was exposed to some pathogen, possibly even a flu virus, around the same time as the flu shot. This might make it appear that she got sick from the virus, but it was almost certainly just conicidence.

 

[Oni Dorei]

Your trying to isolate a certain group of people; however, there's a wide range of individuals who have bad reactions to this medication.

This remind me of my time in the Army; we was told we was going to receive a shot which would help protect us from chemical weapons. The odds of someone having a bad reaction to the shot was 1 out of 1000; however, that one person became so ill he ended up with a Medical Discharge.

By your thinking. It's OK for that one person to almost lose their life just for the rest to take drug that may or may not work? Just because some big pharmaceutical company can test their drugs.


***As for my wife; she became sick because of the shoot; when you introduce a virus into someone system; you will have a bad reaction. But, i'm only her husband I wouldn't know what caused it. 😀

Some or more serious than others

Your seriously contradicting yourself here. You speak like you know for a fact that your wife got sick thanks to the flu shot, but at the same time you wouldn't know what caused it?

 

[Oni Dorei]

Venray you can go 'Not true' and 'It is true' all day, but your not proving your point. Your not backing your stuff up with anything. Do you have any scientific proof that the flu shot will get someone sick or possibly kill them? I mean besides calling someone 'doctor' you haven't done much to sway opinions in this matter. I mean where did you get your information? Do you know anything about the flu shot?

Also I find it disturbing that you would look at the 'worst case scenario' when it comes to a vaccine...

Am I to assume from this link that you don't give your son flu shots because you are worried about autism?

No. Science shows no link. though some folks dont believe that and have the right not to...


Even leaving aside any herd immunity effects, the personal benefits of getting the flu shot greatly outweigh the miniscule risks. It's not about the needs of the many. People should just get the flu shot because they are greedy bastards.

and NOT because they are told they have to..



For the record, while China does have a one child policy, they have no policy about the sex of children. The disproportionate abortion and infanticide of female children is because many Chinese parents simply value boys more, and if they can only have one, they want it to be a boy. The government explicitly prohibits such acts, and such acts are by no means for the public good. Ending up with a society with far more men than women is a very bad thing.

One thing directly causes the other....but isnt really the topic of this thread

For most people, most of the time, the flu is a serious nuisance and nothing more. It is life threatening only for young children, the elderly, and the immune compromised. I would support mandatory flu shots for health care workers, day care and preschool workers, and those who work for the elderly.

You have the right to support this as i have the right not to.



We aren't talking about clinical trials here. There have been numerous studies that prove both the safety and efficacy of the flu shot. We are talking about giving your child a safe, tested shot that dramatically improves his chances of avoiding the flu. There are no men in white lab coats with clipboards collecting data; the children are not guinea pigs.

Ah, but your opinion is it will dramatically improve his chances of getting something he has never gotten comes from where?



One important difference is that the flu is a much more serious illness than the common cold, especially in children under 5. Although I have to admit, if there was a "cold shot" available that was as safe as the flu shot that could give me even a 50% chance of avoiding a cold, I would get that one too.

And it is nice that you can make that CHOICE and not be told you have no choice..



It is a killed virus. You can not get the flu from a flu shot.

There are also live vivus sprays that are administered with some lovely side effects possible...



The flu vaccine works exactly like vaccines for all those other diseases. The difference is that the flu virus mutates much more rapidly than these other pathogens, and the part that mutates most rapidly is the part that codes for the protein coat that allows the human immune system to recognize the virus. The flu vaccine isn't "permanent" because the flu that becomes widespread next year is likely to be very different than the one that spreads this year.

Which makes it a yearly treatment and not an "Immunization" ,,,,,and less effective than I want before I stick it into my son's body...



But it has been proved to be highly effective with minimal risk. That 50% effectiveness number that you took out of context was the worst case scenario, when we guess wrong as to which strains of flu virus will be most widespread. Current technology requires a six month lead time to produce winter flu vaccines. There is new vaccine production technology currently under development that will dramatically reduce the required lead time, and as a result, we will guess wrong a lot less often, and flu vaccines will be even more effective and no less safe.

I GO with the worse case scenario when making decisions on my son's health..perhaps you will some day as well...no one can tell me what a minimal risk is concerning my child



I'm not sure why you feel it is useless. Having suffered through a bout of influenza in the relatively recent past, I can assure you that it is a thoroughly miserable experience, far worse than any cold I've ever had. Since then, I try to get a flu shot every year, to reduce the chance I ever have to go through that again. Isn't that benefit enough?

Not where I am concerned it isnt and the government has no right to tell me what is and isnt an acceptable risk...

 

[casper314]

Your seriously contradicting yourself here. You speak like you know for a fact that your wife got sick thanks to the flu shot, but at the same time you wouldn't know what caused it?

to my knowledge I said my wife became sick after taking the flu shot. What your reading I have no ideal.

My wife stated that she started to feel ill a few minutes after the shot was giving to her at her job. So, If we just very simple deduction

a. she was fine before the shot
b. she got the shot
c. she became ill a few minutes after the shot
which would mean after we remove all other irrelevant tangibles, like she woke up that morning, are maybe she need a bow moment.

the shot was the cause of her illness. so, yes, i would know because

she is my wife.

 

[casper314]

You are reasoning from anecdote, and from a case that isn't particularly relevant to the mandatory flu shots. When you join the Army, you automatically consent to a lot of things that are risky or even deadly. Immunizations are just one of the many risks you are consenting to.

I'm not sure what the shot was is supposed to help protect against chemical weapons, but if the Army has determined that a 1 in 1000 chance at incapacitating an otherwise healthy soldier during non-combat conditions in order to reduce the risk of incapacitating soliders during combat if they are exposed to chemical weapons, I don't think I can argue with their reasoning. Being in the Army is risky, even if you aren't in combat. But this is a topic for a different thread.



Where are you getting the idea that the flu shot is some kind of medical experiement? While I certainly support appropriate human trials of drugs and vaccines, that isn't what we are talking about here. The flu shot has already been tested, many times. It has found to be both safe and effective. The chance of getting the flu and having a serious complication if you don't get the vaccine is much higher than the chance any serious complication from the flu shot if you do get it.



Just out of curiousity, what kind of illness did your experience after getting the flu shot? And is it your personal opinion or that of your doctor that her illness was caused by the flu shot?

As I have said several times, the flu shot uses a killed virus. The worst reaction that you can expect from a killed virus is a mild immune response that lasts for a day or so. Both theory and scientific evidence, and lots of real world experience with the flu shot support this assertion.

We are exposed to lots of different pathogens all the time, and it is entirely possible that your wife was exposed to some pathogen, possibly even a flu virus, around the same time as the flu shot. This might make it appear that she got sick from the virus, but it was almost certainly just conicidence.

Me personally I never had, and never will not take the shot. I would not allow my kids to take the shot either.

as for my wife she was perfectly healthy before the shot; which was given before the cold and flu season began. She work out 5 days a week 2 hours a day.
_______________

Why would you said this is not a medical treatment; when the health department of the state is involved. The whole ideal of the state health department is to monitor the health of the people. (which that what it was designed to do).
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

yes, i agree when I joined the Army i consent to allow them to do almost anything they wanted. KEY WORD when I Joined the Army; I made the choice to go in. which was the whole point of this thread from the first place.

The state forcing parents to go against their believes; just like what happen in Texas with the cervical cancer drug. which barely made it out on the market when the governor of Texas made it mandatory for all female as early as 10 - 18 must take the shot.

How many young girls became seriously ill because of this drug; and the parents was not allow to sue the company nor was they allow the sue the governor for the cost of treatment to their daughter. yes, the drug company put up a little money to help with care of a sick child; which pales to the pain and suffering the child and her parents went through.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

Mandatory

man⋅da⋅to⋅ry   [man-duh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective, noun, plural -ries.
–adjective
1. authoritatively ordered; obligatory; compulsory: It is mandatory that all students take two years of math.
2. pertaining to, of the nature of, or containing a command.
3. Law. permitting no option; not to be disregarded or modified: a mandatory clause.
4. having received a mandate, as a nation.
–noun

People should have the option to decide if they want to take any medication or not.

Adults should have the option to refuse treatment if they wish.

Parents should be allow to make a informed decision concerning their kid
health; without worry if the doctor is going to have the courts take their child away.

Just because you feel that the shot is good doesn't invalidate my concern about it.

If you don't mind you and your loves one being a test dummy for the drug company go for it. but, for me, I would prefer they use their own kids and relatives as lab rats.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


I enjoyed our debate; however, I have a lot of studying to do and little time to do it in.

I would have to say, I agree to disagree with you, and look forward to our next debate on a different subject.

peace, love and soul or sole which ever you prefer.

 

[venray]

You are reasoning from anecodotal evidence, not from statistical evidence. Your son has managed to beat the odds so far by never having gotten the flu. Most likely, he is simply lucky, rather than someone who possess some novel natural immunity to all flu viruses. Every year he faces the same chance as any other non-immunized individual of contracting the flu. If he gets the flu shot, his chance of contracting the flu is even lower.

I dont believe that to be true. His chances will be no lower of getting a form of the flu with a shot. Last year the flu shots they gave out did not include the most active strain and did almost nothing to reduce cases of the flu in our state. And my reasoning comes from over 50 years of life, which beats the "book smart" kids any day where parenting is concerned. You can not be a parent by studying books..doesnt work that way....and you have no evidence to support that my son is lucky OR that his immune system is NOT a little better than most. I have 9 years of living with him that says otherwise..


I thought we were talking about the flu shot, not the flu spray. I understand that using a live attenuated virus vaccine poses significantly higher risks than using a killed virus vaccine. I would not support mandatory immunization with a live virus vaccine unless the public health benefits far outweighed the health risks. That is probably not the case for the flu spray, especially considering that the flu shot has similar effectiveness with fewer side effects.

But it is not as effective as the spray so why not take the additional risk for potentially better results as we are obviously having a flu pandemic around here.. (whatever happened to that dratted bird flu we were all supposed to die from)



It is still an immunization, just one that is effective against a limited set of viral strains. Just because you need an annual flu shot does not make it any less of an immunization.

As far as I am concerned it cannot be equated with vaccines that have virtually eliminated many childhood diseases....and because of limited success rates i see no reason to take the risk...


But why do you only consider the worst case scenario of the flu shot, without considering the worst case scenario of not getting the flu shot? The flu can have serious complications, including pneumonia which can cause permanent lung damage or death, and ear infections which can cause temporary or even permanent hearing loss.

With all the side effects from meds and vaccinations, the cure is often times more risky than the disease...common sense says dont put something into your body unless there is a much better effectiveness rate than 50%


I sincerely hope that when I have children, I will be able to maintain my objective, scientific attitude towards risk assessment

I sincerely hope that when you have children, you do what you think is best for them no matter what someone else says...and judging from your posts I am sure you will ...That is all any child can ask for...and that is what mine gets from me..I have been around for 54 years and grew up with the threat of polio, came down with mumps measles and chicken pox....and have seen a lot of pain, suffering and disease...

I think my statistics from real life beat those found in science journals and will continue to base my opinions that way until proven otherwise...no one has done that as of yet....When my son turns 18 if he wants to get himself a flu shot, he will have that choice to make....


Bottom line here is that the government hasnt got the right to mandate flu vaccinations and if they were to do so in my state and it affected my son directly, then I would file suit against them...

 

[casper314]

From Wikipedia

Efficacy of vaccine


This section is written like an advertisement. Please help rewrite this section from a neutral point of view. (September 2008)
Flu vaccines are available both as an injection of killed virus (or flu shot) and as nasal spray of live attenuated influenza virus (LAIV) (sold as FluMist in the United States). LAIV is not recommended for individuals under age 2 or over age 50.[13]
Vaccine is effective against influenza, but not perfect. A study led by Dr. David K. Shay in February, 2008 reported that
"full immunization against flu provided about a 75 percent effectiveness rate in preventing hospitalizations from influenza complications in the 2005-6 and 2006-7 influenza seasons."[14]
While no statistically significant advantage emerged for either LAIV or TIV (needle-injected vaccine) over the other in two trials among adults noted by the CDC, the benefit of influenza vaccination over non-vaccination were clear:
"One randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled challenge study among 92 healthy adults aged 18–41 years assessed the efficacy of both LAIV and TIV in preventing influenza infection when challenged with wild-type strains that were antigenically similar to vaccine strains. The overall efficacy in preventing laboratory-documented influenza from all three influenza strains combined was 85% and 71%, respectively.
In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, conducted among young adults during an influenza season when the majority of circulating H3N2 viruses were antigenically drifted from that season’s vaccine viruses, the efficacy of LAIV and TIV against culture-confirmed influenza was 57% and 77%, respectively.
The 57-77% efficacy rate of the influenza vaccine is not universal, however. The group most vulnerable to the illness, the elderly, is also the least affected by the vaccine, with an average efficacy rate ranging from 40-50% at age 65, and 15-30% past age 70. [15][16][17] There are multiple reasons behind this steep decline in vaccine efficacy, the most common of which are the declining immunological function and frailty associated with advanced age.[18]
Neither the comparative advantages of LAIV in the first study nor the apparent advantages of needle-injected vaccine in the second rose to statistical significance. The added benefits of needle-injected vaccine in the second study "was based largely upon a difference in efficacy against influenza B."[19]
LAIV may be comparatively more effective among children.[20] In studies conducted before final approval for two-year olds and older children, FluMist demonstrated a definite immunological advantage over flu shots in this age group.[21]
These studies demonstrate that vaccination can be a cost-effective counter-measure to seasonal outbreaks of influenza.[22][23]
In most years (16 of the 19 years before 2007), the flu vaccine strains have been a good match for the circulating strains.[24] In other flu seasons like that of 2007/2008, the match was less useful. But even a mis-matched vaccine can often provide some protection:
...[A]ntibodies made in response to vaccination with one strain of influenza viruses can provide protection against different, but related strains. A less than ideal match may result in reduced vaccine effectiveness against the variant viruses, but it still can provide enough protection to prevent or lessen illness severity and prevent flu-related complications. In addition, it’s important to remember that the influenza vaccine contains three virus strains so the vaccine can also protect against the other two viruses. For these reasons, even during seasons when there is a less than ideal match, CDC continues to recommend influenza vaccination. This is particularly important for people at high risk for serious flu complications and their close contacts.[25]
Analysis of studies concluded that people over 65 who got flu shots were half as likely to die over the winter as their unvaccinated peers; this has become the consensus view. However, it has been pointed out that the number of flu deaths among elderly people in the US has remained at around 5% of winter deaths from 1980 until 2005, although vaccination coverage increased from around 15% in 1980 to around 70% in 2005. Also the biggest supposed benefit from the flu shot occurred in the months before the flu season had started. While accepting that vaccination reduced the risk of dying of flu, the analysis pointed out the need to develop better statistical methods for measuring the effectiveness of the flu vaccine.[1]

 

[venray]

Venray you can go 'Not true' and 'It is true' all day, but your not proving your point. Your not backing your stuff up with anything. Do you have any scientific proof that the flu shot will get someone sick or possibly kill them? I mean besides calling someone 'doctor' you haven't done much to sway opinions in this matter. I mean where did you get your information? Do you know anything about the flu shot?

Also I find it disturbing that you would look at the 'worst case scenario' when it comes to a vaccine...

Oni I have lived through all kinds of things in my life and have seen people get sick from such shots. I dont need biased scientific studies funded by drug companies to teach me common sense. There is absolutely no reason to vaccinate kids against 1 or 2 strains of influenza at a time as it will do very little good in the long run. My son is already past the mandate age and it wont affect him anyway. My point is that parents should be allowed to decide what is right for their kids not the government. If you had kids you would think the same.

 

[SpiffyTickler]

Analysis of studies concluded that people over 65 who got flu shots were half as likely to die over the winter as their unvaccinated peers; this has become the consensus view. However, it has been pointed out that the number of flu deaths among elderly people in the US has remained at around 5% of winter deaths from 1980 until 2005, although vaccination coverage increased from around 15% in 1980 to around 70% in 2005. Also the biggest supposed benefit from the flu shot occurred in the months before the flu season had started. While accepting that vaccination reduced the risk of dying of flu, the analysis pointed out the need to develop better statistical methods for measuring the effectiveness of the flu vaccine.[1]

Your bolded sentence is in reference to some controversy of the effect of the flu shot on the elderly. Also, if you go to the referenced New Scientist article, you'll find this bit of text rather relevant to the thread:

No one suggests that seniors should not be vaccinated: there is no doubt that flu shots reduce their risk of dying because of flu. But health professionals must accept that flu shots do not have the impossible benefits claimed, and start working on more effective prevention programmes. Manufacturers should step up efforts to develop vaccines that are more effective in the elderly, and public health authorities should assess whether it would be better to protect elderly citizens indirectly by vaccinating groups such as schoolchildren or carers, to prevent transmission of the virus.

Asides from that, the rest of the text you quoted is touting the effectiveness of flu shots and doesn't support your overall position against flu shots. To point out a few examples from the text you posted:

While no statistically significant advantage emerged for either LAIV or TIV (needle-injected vaccine) over the other in two trials among adults noted by the CDC, the benefit of influenza vaccination over non-vaccination were clear:
"One randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled challenge study among 92 healthy adults aged 18–41 years assessed the efficacy of both LAIV and TIV in preventing influenza infection when challenged with wild-type strains that were antigenically similar to vaccine strains. The overall efficacy in preventing laboratory-documented influenza from all three influenza strains combined was 85% and 71%, respectively.

These studies demonstrate that vaccination can be a cost-effective counter-measure to seasonal outbreaks of influenza.[22][23]

And for Venray:

In most years (16 of the 19 years before 2007), the flu vaccine strains have been a good match for the circulating strains.[24] In other flu seasons like that of 2007/2008, the match was less useful. But even a mis-matched vaccine can often provide some protection:
...[A]ntibodies made in response to vaccination with one strain of influenza viruses can provide protection against different, but related strains. A less than ideal match may result in reduced vaccine effectiveness against the variant viruses, but it still can provide enough protection to prevent or lessen illness severity and prevent flu-related complications. In addition, it’s important to remember that the influenza vaccine contains three virus strains so the vaccine can also protect against the other two viruses. For these reasons, even during seasons when there is a less than ideal match, CDC continues to recommend influenza vaccination. This is particularly important for people at high risk for serious flu complications and their close contacts.[25]

 

[venray]

A mismatched vaccine can provide some protection and a cup of coffee can make you regular...so what...

It can but might not, making a mandate unthinkable.....

I feel sorry for those that think you can raise kids from books, and even more sorry for those that give up freedom of choice because a drug company test tells them they should do so....
but most learn from there mistakes in the long run...

 

[SpiffyTickler]

A mismatched vaccine can provide some protection and a cup of coffee can make you regular...so what...

It can but might not making a mandate unthinkable.....

I feel sorry for those that think you can raise kids from books, but most learn otherwise in the long run...

So, your basic argument here is that those of us who look to the vast amount of scientific studies done on flu-shots, ran by people who work in this field of research, which show that flu shots are highly effective, are just lacking the down-to-earth gut intuitions of parents who clearly know more about immunology than these know-it-all scientists?

 

[Oni Dorei]

Venray if making 'perfect parents' was simply based on age and what someone would consider experience than we wouldn't have so many horrible parents out there. I don't believe what you've experienced in your life would make you a professional when it comes to modern medicine. Have you known anyone who has died directly due to a flu shot?

You know from what I've gathered here everyone who's actually against the flu shot really has no idea what they are talking about. Like the guy who claims his wife got sick because of the flu shot. Reminds me of my aunt who self diagnosis everyone's sicknesses. Or you Venray. You remind me of my uncle who knew that getting a surgery for his hemorrhoids would hurt him more than help him.

Truth is we have doctors for a reason. And Venray your not a doctor. And neither am I, but I know all the years I've received a flu shot I've never been sick. Wasn't happy after the shot, but never sick.

 

[Oni Dorei]

So, your basic argument here is that those of us who look to the vast amount of scientific studies done on flu-shots, ran by people who work in this field of research, showing that flu shots are highly effective, are just lacking the down-to-earth gut intuitions of parents who clearly know more about immunology than these know-it-all scientists?

Reminds me of the parents who believed their son was Jesus incarnate. They were down-to-earth as well. Their kid died of course, but they were down-to-earth.

 

[kis123]

Reminds me of the parents who believed their son was Jesus incarnate. They were down-to-earth as well. Their kid died of course, but they were down-to-earth.

That's extreme in any form; parents who are not mentally challenged would not believe their child is Jesus incarnate. Parents who believe a flu shot with a 49% effectiveness should not have to give it to their kid if they don't want to.

That leaves 51% of the recipients rendered useless and 100% of the recipients screwed if an uncovered strain of flu breaks out. Then what??

 

[venray]

So, your basic argument here is that those of us who look to the vast amount of scientific studies done on flu-shots, ran by people who work in this field of research, which show that flu shots are highly effective, are just lacking the down-to-earth gut intuitions of parents who clearly know more about immunology than these know-it-all scientists?

No my basic argument is that the goverment cannot mandate that kids be given flu shots When we give up the right to choose we give up a hell f a lot of freedom.

Do a little further study and tell me who funded this research and that it isnt tainted in any way. And I havent seen anything that shows it is HIGHLY effective......lol and yes..I trust my judgement where MY kids are concerned. If you choose to be book smart and follow the science gods...good for you..I do not...I have been around the block a few times and know better...

They once had a ton of studies that "proved" smoking wasnt bad for you....so pardon me for wanting more conclusive data...and enjoy the sterile freedomless life you seem to be gravitating towards...many have gone there before you...

 

[venray]

Venray if making 'perfect parents' was simply based on age and what someone would consider experience than we wouldn't have so many horrible parents out there. I don't believe what you've experienced in your life would make you a professional when it comes to modern medicine. Have you known anyone who has died directly due to a flu shot?

You know from what I've gathered here everyone who's actually against the flu shot really has no idea what they are talking about. Like the guy who claims his wife got sick because of the flu shot. Reminds me of my aunt who self diagnosis everyone's sicknesses. Or you Venray. You remind me of my uncle who knew that getting a surgery for his hemorrhoids would hurt him more than help him.

Truth is we have doctors for a reason. And Venray your not a doctor. And neither am I, but I know all the years I've received a flu shot I've never been sick. Wasn't happy after the shot, but never sick.

I am however someone who believes the government does not always know what is best for us. I do not accept a mandate for something that has (by the very scientific studies quoted here) a success rate of 49-51 %...Not good odds for mandatory needles. ...and no , I dont know anyone who has died from a flu shot...nor do I know anyone who has died from the flu.....nor have I seen in my 54 years, an epidemic of flu and death from it that would make it a major health problem that should make us all run to the nearest clinic and line the drug companies pockets with more money...

Nothing has been shown here to convince me that this is a major problem....
nothing has proven the effectiveness of this so called "immunization" vaccine to the point that we should allow the government to force parents to make their kids get it...There is no scientific evidence here to warrant such action and if you think there is then I suggest you look into it yourself instead of just taking as gospel the word and posts of a few forum members before you make a decision in life you may someday regret...

So have you gotten a flu shot....has Spiff?...if not then you have absolutely no right to tell me to innoculate my kid.....not that you have that right anyway...

 

[Oni Dorei]

That's extreme in any form; parents who are not mentally challenged would not believe their child is Jesus incarnate. Parents who believe a flu shot with a 49% effectiveness should not have to give it to their kid if they don't want to.

That leaves 51% of the recipients rendered useless and 100% of the recipients screwed if an uncovered strain of flu breaks out. Then what??

Please explain why millions believe a child could be the reincarnation of their old spiritual leader. Are they mentally challenged as well? Please explain why 95% of the worlds population believes in a force that goes well beyond themselves.

You tell me.

 

[Oni Dorei]

I am however someone who believes the government does not always know what is best for us. I do not accept a mandate for something that has (by the very scientific studies quoted here) a success rate of 49-51 %...Not good odds for mandatory needles. ...and no , I dont know anyone who has died from a flu shot...nor do I know anyone who has died from the flu.....nor have I seen in my 54 years, an epidemic of flu and death from it that would make it a major health problem that should make us all run to the nearest clinic and line the drug companies pockets with more money...

Nothing has been shown here to convince me that this is a major problem....
nothing has proven the effectiveness of this so called "immunization" vaccine to the point that we should allow the government to force parents to make their kids get it...There is no scientific evidence here to warrant such action and if you think there is then I suggest you look into it yourself instead of just taking as gospel the word and posts of a few forum members before you make a decision in life you may someday regret...

So have you gotten a flu shot....has Spiff?...if not then you have absolutely no right to tell me to innoculate my kid.....not that you have that right anyway...

I'm not telling you to do anything with your kid Venray. But I don't think your 'down-to-earth' and 'gut feelings' will hold up very well in court. If you don't want to get your kid inoculated than by all means don't, but don't tell people the flu shot will get you sick because your 'gut feeling' says so.

Now that I think about it. You said you look for the worst possible scenario when it comes to things. Let me ask you a few questions.

1. Do you let your kid ride in vehicles?
2. Do you feed your children food that comes from stores or food you grow yourselves?
3. Do you lay your kid face down or face up while they are asleep?

Think about the worst possible scenario for those three questions. I'll be honest with you Venray I don't believe this has anything to do with the chances of your kid getting sick. I'm willing to say your paranoid of the government. That's what it seems to boil down to. If anyone believes the flu shot really will make you sick than... lol... wow. So the government's now trying to infect us with the flu? What's next?

 

[kis123]

Please explain why millions believe a child could be the reincarnation of their old spiritual leader. Are they mentally challenged as well? Please explain why 95% of the worlds population believes in a force that goes well beyond themselves.

You tell me.

I believe in a force greater than myself-I even believe in God, but I don't believe it is incarnated in my son or daughter. Anyone who believes their child is Jesus Christ isn't mentally challenged.......they are plain crazy!!

 

[Oni Dorei]

I believe in a force greater than myself-I even believe in God, but I don't believe it is incarnated in my son or daughter. Anyone who believes their child is Jesus Christ isn't mentally challenged.......they are plain crazy!!

You do realize there are religions out there that do believe in reincarnation. And there are people who have already been named as their 'reincarnated' leaders. Now I too believe in Jesus Christ and God, but I'm not disrespectful like that. I think you should show some respect to people who believe differently from you. And that's coming from a Christian.

 

[venray]

Please explain why millions believe a child could be the reincarnation of their old spiritual leader. Are they mentally challenged as well? Please explain why 95% of the worlds population believes in a force that goes well beyond themselves.

You tell me.

Are you seriously comparing these things to a state innoculation mandate...take a deep breath as they have nothing to do with one another...

As for the government I am not paranoid....I am skeptical....we have legalized murder in the form of the death penalty and we have a prison camp in Cuba cause the government tells us it is the right thing to do....

I question my government for those that dont become lost sheep and follow blindly into whatever direction they want to take you...


Good luck with that......

As for the topic of this thread which is the State of NJ mandating this vaccine, I dare say we havent heard the end of it from the folks that live there.....

As for me, i dont live there and my state hasnt yet attempted something so foolish...even if they did my son is past the age of mandate....and the decision remains mine as long as the country is a free one...when our rights to choose are taken away we lose our freedom.....one piece at a time...we dont need the government to tell us how to do everything...if we did, we wouldnt need elections or "change", we would only need do whatever the people in power tell us to...

So if you believe in that again more power to you..I do not..and my uncles didnt go to war and die believing that either.....they fought those ideas that nearly destroyed the world a couple of times over...Thank God they did or none of us could get so philosophical on a fetish forum....

 

[Oni Dorei]

Are you seriously comparing these things to a state innoculation mandate...take a deep breath as they have nothing to do with one another...

As for the government I am not paranoid....I am skeptical....we have legalized murder in the form of the death penalty and we have a prison camp in Cuba cause the government tells us it is the right thing to do....

I question my government for those that dont become lost sheep and follow blindly into whatever direction they want to take you...


Good luck with that......

As for the topic of this thread which is the State of NJ mandating this vaccine, I dare say we havent heard the end of it from the folks that live there.....

As for me, i dont live there and my state hasnt yet attempted something so foolish...even if they did my son is past the age of mandate....and the decision remains mine as long as the country is a free one...when our rights to choose are taken away we lose our freedom.....one piece at a time...we dont need the government to tell us how to do everything...if we did, we wouldnt need elections or "change", we would only need do whatever the people in power tell us to...

So if you believe in that again more power to you..I do not..and my uncles didnt go to war and die believing that either.....they fought those ideas that nearly destroyed the world a couple of times over...Thank God they did or none of us could get so philosophical on a fetish forum....

No Venray I wasn't using that as an example to prove you wrong so don't take one simple sentence and twist it around on to yourself. It wasn't aimed towards you so don't try to pretend it was. And Venray I don't think anyone's been trying to convince you to get your son that vaccine. I mean you obviously know more than doctors and scientists do. Why don't you go out there with your 54 years of knowledge and create some real vaccines. I'm surprised you haven't found the cure for the common cold by now.

And BTW Venray. My uncles fought in wars as well. I have an uncle who is still in the army. And you know what? They don't believe the government is trying to kill them with a flu shot.

And if you feel were getting philosophical on you (which your using completely out of context BTW) than I would avoid these types of conversations. I would think your 'Gut' would have told you better anyways. I guess it only works with government conspiracies.

 

[venray]

You havent gotten scientific on me either.....

Ask your uncles (if they are still around,,,mine are not) what they would think of this mandate....then get back to me..

 

[Oni Dorei]

I guess this is the level of maturity people like us have to deal with.