State takes away rights of parents again

[venray]

I guess this is the level of maturity people like us have to deal with.

you jumped to quickly read the post that went with it..as for maturity...I have never pretended to have any......it gets in the way of life,,,,

Be well......I think we're done here...

 

[Oni Dorei]

You havent gotten scientific on me either.....

Ask your uncles (if they are still around,,,mine are not) what they would think of this mandate....then get back to me..

You assume you know my uncles? They also believed in the advances of sciences and medicine. They got their kids the flu shot every year like I did. They believed it helped. Did that answer your question? Did I get back to you faster than you expected?

And nice little post edit.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Ray, I'd have to agree with you. Mandates are bad in most cases. This case would seem to be no exception.

About the only mandate I've supported in recent years was NYC's ban on trans fats. The only reason why I supported that ban was because of how unnecessary trans fats are in food production and how damaging they are to public health.

This particular flu shot mandate is not nearly as compelling in its benefits vs. its implications toward governmental power.

 

[venray]

You assume you know my uncles? They also believed in the advances of sciences and medicine. They got their kids the flu shot every year like I did. They believed it helped. Did that answer your question? Did I get back to you faster than you expected?

And nice little post edit.

No I dont know your uncles but I do know you havent asked their opinion of the issue at hand....so ta for now......

 

[Oni Dorei]

you jumped to quickly read the post that went with it..as for maturity...I have never pretended to have any......it gets in the way of life,,,,

Be well......I think we're done here...

There was no post! You edited it! I quoted it the way it was seen. I mean not that it matters really, but WTF! Is that how it is? You say something real quick and edited hoping a mod won't catch on? That's sad. If you have something to say at least have the guile to say it and not edited because your afraid of a little backlash....

 

[venray]

Ray, I'd have to agree with you. Mandates are bad in most cases. This case would seem to be no exception.

About the only mandate I've supported in recent years was NYC's ban on trans fats. The only reason why I supported that ban was because of how unnecessary trans fats are in food production and how damaging they are to public health.

This particular flu shot mandate is not nearly as compelling in its benefits vs. its implications toward governmental power.

And that sir is all I have been saying...... (thanks)

too bad my time in school didnt learn me better....cant hold a candle to all these newfangled studies they got out these days. that so many (well a few anyway) put absolute faith in...

 

[Oni Dorei]

No I dont know your uncles but I do know you havent asked their opinion of the issue at hand....so ta for now......

lol I've been sitting here for a few minutes trying to come up with something to say back to you, but after seeing you post those bouncy faces, editing it real quick and claiming I didn't read the full thing, than claiming maturity get's in the way of life. I mean what can someone say about that? I wish I knew who I was dealing with when I PM'd you the first time. I really do. You've shown a level of maturity here that is shameful.

 

[MrMacphisto]

And that sir is all I have been saying...... (thanks)

too bad my time in school didnt learn me better....cant hold a candle to all these newfangled studies they got out these days. that so many (well a few anyway) put absolute faith in...

No prob... 🙂

That being said, I think studies are logical to include here. Putting absolute faith in them is a mistake, but ignoring them isn't good either. Being rationally skeptical is a good thing though... 😉

Still, for me, the study has to be very compelling in order for it to make me willing to give the government the ability to force me to do something.

I wouldn't think that flu shots are as important as wearing a seat belt while in a moving car, for example.

 

[venray]

No prob... 🙂

That being said, I think studies are logical to include here. Putting absolute faith in them is a mistake, but ignoring them isn't good either. Being rationally skeptical is a good thing though... 😉

Still, for me, the study has to be very compelling in order for it to make me willing to give the government the ability to force me to do something.

I wouldn't think that flu shots are as important as wearing a seat belt while in a moving car, for example.

Exactly...

and ditto Oni....

 

[Skipadeedoodah]

I personally never had a flu-shot and can remember only being sick twice my entire life.

Well pin a rose on your nose

There is a reason for vaccinations since children are more susceptible to colds and tend to carry more microbes pertaining to the flu

I tend to agree. I personally have never had a flu shot, just because I don't get sick often enough to warrent it, in my opinion. But if I had a doctor that I trusted and I knew wouldn't B.S. me tell me to get the flue shot or get my kids the flu shot, I'd do it. That's why they're doctors...cause they know this shit.

 

[kis123]

You do realize there are religions out there that do believe in reincarnation. And there are people who have already been named as their 'reincarnated' leaders. Now I too believe in Jesus Christ and God, but I'm not disrespectful like that. I think you should show some respect to people who believe differently from you. And that's coming from a Christian.

I don't care what other's religious beliefs are but you don't deitize your kids. They are your responsibility to raise not to worship. Sorry it's at best inappropriate, and at worst.........plain crazy! I'm not placing my childs' status in the family hierarchy above my own let alone God's and you can call it and me what you want.

Getting back to the topic:

Medicine is NOT an exact science, that's why it is referred to as a practice. What works for one individual is not guaranteed to work for all. Having said that, the study only has a 49% effectiveness rate. There is absolutely no basis to mandate an entire state population of ages 6 and under to take this shot.

Like I said before, go back to the drawing board, improve the quality of the vaccine, make it permanent and not annual, then get back to me on it. And while you're at it, get the state the hell out of family business! I'm sure they have plenty to do without adding the burden of an entire demographic to their already overwhelmed system.

 

[venray]

if I had a doctor that I trusted and I knew wouldn't B.S. me [/B]tell me to get the flue shot or get my kids the flu shot, I'd do it. That's why they're doctors...cause they know this shit.

You get a star as THAT criteria I could live with as well....but the government of the state of NJ is not a source I would trust with my kid's health....

Add that to the fact that my son's Dr. said it was not necessary to give him a flu shot based on his medical history and you can see why i think a mandate is out of line....let the individual and the Drs. make the call NOT the government that cant balance a budget or keep its residents employed...

 

[kis123]

And that sir is all I have been saying...... (thanks)

too bad my time in school didnt learn me better....cant hold a candle to all these newfangled studies they got out these days. that so many (well a few anyway) put absolute faith in...

And without considering the source either!

If I paid you to find results that will turn me a profit, you're going to work every angle you can including touting a 49% effectiveness and turning it into an entire state mandate. Maybe it's legit, but it's walking and quacking from over here!

This is so transparent my nine year old grand nephew can figure it out.

 

[ex_tenebros]

I wouldn't think that flu shots are as important as wearing a seat belt while in a moving car, for example.

OOC, why not? Isn't it only that one person who's affected by not wearing a seat belt? It seems like the public health aspects of an epidemic are wider and more important that that, at least to me.

 

[MrMacphisto]

OOC, why not? Isn't it only that one person who's affected by not wearing a seat belt? It seems like the public health aspects of an epidemic are wider and more important that that, at least to me.

In theory yes. I would say there is a difference in evidence, however. Vaccinations work best against obvious, fatal threats.

Distributing a smallpox vaccine was essential to saving thousands if not millions of lives. The flu only generally kills people in very poor countries (or those who are already very frail in health).

While it is true that infants fit the frail description, the problem with flu shots is that it is not yet conclusive (at least by my definition) that they really work on a level that should render them mandatory.

One downside to a flu vaccine is that the flu itself will mutate into another form sooner the more a vaccine is passed around. Eventually, the vaccine itself becomes useless against the new flu's form.

Also, there are enough X-factors involved to make someone understandably hesitant. There is conflicting evidence linking some vaccines like flu shots to autism. Nothing's set in stone, but even the implication that autism is a possibility will obviously give people reason to consider not giving them to their children.

 

[SpiffyTickler]

Medicine is NOT an exact science, that's why it is referred to as a practice. What works for one individual is not guaranteed to work for all. Having said that, the study only has a 49% effectiveness rate. There is absolutely no basis to mandate an entire state population of ages 6 and under to take this shot.

The 49% rating was from a study during a season with a suboptimal vaccine match and dealt with children 6-23 months old. That's not a blanket figure for the effectiveness of the flu shot in general amongst all groups.

 

[Deleted member 66627]

I only read about 4 replies, so, I'm not really sure of what anyone else is saying. In my opinion, as a mother, I should have complete and total say over what is inflicted or done to My child before anyone else.

It's really easy to say Doctor's know best, but like us, Doctor's are humans too. And humans fuck up.

I have yet to get My son vaccinated for the flu. I've seen no real need for it to be done. It's really easy to say "oh it needs to be done", until you are cradling your child who now has the flu injected into him and is in pain and feels like complete shit.

 

[ex_tenebros]

In theory yes. I would say there is a difference in evidence, however. Vaccinations work best against obvious, fatal threats.

Vaccines work against any disease that you don't want to catch.

Distributing a smallpox vaccine was essential to saving thousands if not millions of lives. The flu only generally kills people in very poor countries (or those who are already very frail in health).

That depends on the strain, and doesn't take account of opportunistic secondary infections. But "not dying" still leaves a lot of room for getting very, very sick, and costing the public and employers a whole lot of money.

Not wearing a seatbelt won't necessarily kill you either.

One downside to a flu vaccine is that the flu itself will mutate into another form sooner the more a vaccine is passed around.

I know of no evidence at all that immunization increases the mutation rate of a pathogen. Where would I find this? On the other hand there's very good evidence that vaccination is effective against the agents for which it's designed, and that widespread vaccination helps to protect even those who are not vaccinated.

Also, there are enough X-factors involved to make someone understandably hesitant. There is conflicting evidence linking some vaccines like flu shots to autism.

That's alleged against thimerosal, a preservative used in some vaccines. The evidence is extremely conflicted, and the general opinion seems to be that there is no connection. But parents who are concerned about this simply need to insist on a vaccine formulation that leaves out thimerosal. There are several.

Again, seatbelts seem like a very small and personal decision compared to this.

 

[venray]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkup/2008/10/should_i_get_a_flu_shot.html


Should I Get A Flu Shot?
Yes.

if you're among the nearly 90 percent of the public that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) deems eligible for vaccination against influenza, there are lots of reasons to get the shot, and precious few for avoiding it.

Yes, we know: Last year's flu shot was sorely mismatched to the strain of influenza that ended up circulating. That's a sad fact of the long process required to manufacture flu vaccine: Experts have to take their best guess, based on what strains circulated last flu season and what's circulating in other parts of the world, nearly a year in advance to accommodate the culturing of a key vaccine component in chicken eggs. Until someone finds a better way, we're stuck with that reality.
We also know that even folks who do get a flu shot may still get the flu (though often a milder case than perhaps they would have otherwise), and some will die. And, yes, it's recently come to light that the vaccine may not actually reduce mortality among older people, a benefit touted for years that's now not so clear-cut.

Now the article I just posted still is in favor of flu shots, but says the method of creating the vaccine is the experts "best guess" as to which strains come out the year they are creating the vaccine for....

Now the benefits may indeed help some, but the government should NOT mandate this to be given to children. taking away the parental right to choose. Not based on a "best guess" which is hardly reason for parents to be forced to take their kids for shots.

It also states that the benefit of preventing death in the elderly from the flu...well they are not so sure about that now...looks like they were wrong....so what makes people think they are not wrong about other aspects of this shot? And why would you fight to make it mandatory for others to stck their kids with it? What gives you that right?

There are 92 strains of flu and more mutating yearly. One vaccine cannot fight them or protect one from all of them. So why this big mandate to protect at the expense of freedoms under the guise of "the good of the public at large" which it will do nothing much to protect if anything at all...?

I have no problem with those that choose the shot for themselves or their kids. They believe they are doing the right thing. I have a problem when they think they should determine how I choose. A big problem...

 

[venray]

Oh..did anyone actually read some of the stories dealing with the topic of the original post...?

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/cold-flu-mandatory-flu-shots-nj-goes-insane.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFluNews/story?id=6051917&page=1

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/91356.php

 

[kis123]

The 49% rating was from a study during a season with a suboptimal vaccine match and dealt with children 6-23 months old. That's not a blanket figure for the effectiveness of the flu shot in general amongst all groups.

And it still isn't enough to mandete an entire demographic into doing. They still have to take the shot annually. There still is no guarantee the shot will even work and you kid gets the flu anyway. With those facts, I'd rather take my chances. Besides both of my children are adults and neither has ever had the flu. They have sat in some of the most germ-infested environments known to man.........public school!

Wanna' mandate the shot? Get back in the lab and make it better instead of using these kids as lab rats. If you really don't think they aren't going to collect data and stats on these kids, you and the shot supporters are fooling yourselves. 49-51% isn't nearly high enough for me to subject my child to any of this.

 

[venray]

The 49% rating was from a study during a season with a suboptimal vaccine match and dealt with children 6-23 months old. That's not a blanket figure for the effectiveness of the flu shot in general amongst all groups.

and THAT is the group that Jersey is mandating take the shot....

read the articles posted above...

Why mandate this group (it has been shown least effective) take the shot...

 

[venray]

and that widespread vaccination helps to protect even those who are not vaccinated.


Again, seatbelts seem like a very small and personal decision compared to this.

Um why are these folks not mandated to get the shot....why not everyone?

If we are so concerned with protecting others should not everyone get the shot to protect us as well? i mean...fair is fair...

You cant single out a portion of the populace and force them to get innoculated while giving free choice to everyone else...especially that portion which is unable to make decisions and relies on parental discretion to make those decisions for their developing years....what country do we live in?

 

[kis123]

And here's another link for you.....and it's from a doctor too.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller27.html

Here is one quote that particularly got my attention; sorta goes with what I've been saying about these "studies" all along:

"Almost all the ACIP members who make these recommendations have financial ties to the vaccine industry. The CDC therefore must grant each member a conflict-of-interest waiver."

You'll have to read the article to get the rest.

And Ray's abc link has many people with stories of their kids getting gravely ill and even dying after receiving immunizations. Let me guess, they're wrong too huh? Or is that just community collateral damage? The utilitarian mindset sometimes makes me sick!

 

[SpiffyTickler]

And here's another link for you.....and it's from a doctor too.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller27.html

Here is one quote that particularly got my attention; sorta goes with what I've been saying about these "studies" all along:

"Almost all the ACIP members who make these recommendations have financial ties to the vaccine industry. The CDC therefore must grant each member a conflict-of-interest waiver."

You'll have to read the article to get the rest.

And Ray's abc link has many people with stories of their kids getting gravely ill and even dying after receiving immunizations. Let me guess, they're wrong too huh? Or is that just community collateral damage? The utilitarian mindset sometimes makes me sick!

This same guy also says that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. I think I'll listen to someone else.