Student threatens Teacher with Cookie

[Celtic_Emperor]

I've read this entire thread and have found it's turnout to be good and full of differing opinions. Its always so nice when people can talk about issues and such.

Theres one thing I'm not so sure anyone mentioned though- location.

Location has alot to do with how a child is going to act. While it is the primary responsibility of the parents, and I'd sooner blame them than a teacher who is honestly trying but is failing to be strict enough, society and pop culture is ultimately to blame and its influences may be stronger in more 'disinfranchized' parts of town, or in the 'ghetto schools' as they are called. While this isn't a race or ethnicity issue, it does play a part in how the mind of a student works and what they value as priorities.

TV, music, and even some video games demean and bastardize decent behavior. While these are creations of businesses, enterprizes and monopolies, society accepts them wholeheartedly. If we have no responsbility for what we choose to accept, then we have no responsbility in telling our children 'no, thats wrong', and we ourselves are at a loss as to what they should and should not be doing or saying when the teachers and we are fighting an uphill battle against the entertainment and music industry inparticular.

This translates into a disrespect for others, and even one's self. It does not matter who or what, there is simply no respect. And this lack of respect (in all it's forms) is not only a lack of discipline, its a lack of society's integrity to foster a nuturing atmosphere. Pop culture controls our children, and if we ourselves are ignorant or confounded by it, we have no sense of urgency in dealing with the aftermath and the ideas tv and music are putting in our children's heads. Columbine for example was masterminded by some punks who got the idea or 'theme' if you will from various movies and musics. While not all entertainment creates such an angst in young people, its definitely a negative influence.

Its "cool" to defy authority, it teaches them. It teaches them to defy all forms of authority, even their parents whom hopefully love them very much and are only trying to do right by them. If a child doesn't respect his or her own parents they won't respect a teacher.

And in getting back to the topic, I think what happened was right. I'm only 21, but when I was in school none of this stuff happened either. A teacher being directly or indirectly threatened by a student that is. Things are far worse now then they were then or in your times or mine. Thats so true. Its as if the school environment has gone through a complete metamorphisis for the worst. Teachers are unequipped and have their hands tied by what congress and state ballots pass. Many of them don't have the means to conduct a teaching environment in a satisifactory way. Our children are crammed into classrooms, and they get no personal learning time with their teachers. The emphasis seems to have changed from one of learning to one of "lets just let little Jimmy makes it through because theres more where that came from."

While I'm sure there are reasons, legitimate or not (mostly not) for this happening, it all really affects the mentality of a child. Children as students in weak schools with weak principles and practices aren't stupid. They know they are being short-changed. And perhaps that is another reason they rebel in this way. "I'm in this hellhole, I might as well act however I want. To hell with it and to hell with them."

Obviously the problems at school and at home, and the ideas put into our children's heads by the media and such create for them this idea that life is a college party and they can act how they want the way they want. They create a niche for themselves that allows for this behavior whether anyone cares to correct them or not. Unfortunately, the 'battlegrounds' are the homes and schools, and ironically not the streets as much as one would think.

Clearly a line must be drawn, and parents and teachers should and must take back the ground they've lost in this very real battle. If theres no respect in the home or in school theres likely to be no respect anywhere.

As for the cookie, and him threatening to use it on her knowing very well she was allergic and could possibly die if exposed to it, even in the slighest bit, well, I agree with those that see that as assault. Just the mere 'hint' of it is suspicion enough of a verbal threat to make a physical one. Whats so awkward about this case is that he is/was an honors student. And while honor students probably have more responsibility and stress than an average student, common sense and reason should have told him to keep his mouth shut.

He got what he deserved.

 

[natural tickler]

I'm sorry, boss, but I don't understand what you're trying to get at. First you say today's teacher has no authority, then you said that in order to regain credibility as an authority figure, "the warden has to go back to what got him where he was," but you consider a suspension to be extreme? Are you suggesting corporal punishment as an alternative?

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious as to what your actual position is, since the warden analogy was a little vague to me. If you were suggesting corporal punishment, I just want to say that I agree that it could possibly be beneficial. I go through similar stuff all the time in the Marine Corps. Nowadays, if someone screws up, you can't "order them" to do pushups, or make them hold heavy ammo cans straight out at arm's length for an extended period of time, etc., because it's considered "hazing". The only times you can get away with this sort of thing is if you do it right alongside them, and consider it "training". Unfortunately, nowadays, the accepted method of reprimand is paper "counselings", and recording everything negative a person does, as well as any attempts at correction, until the point where the person in question ends up undergoing administrative separation for patterns of misconduct, which the way I see it, is giving up, washing your hands of them, and turning them loose into the civilian world with a bad service record, which will give them difficulty finding a decent job for something that probably could've been corrected with a little "pain training". Sadly, teachers have no such opportunity for discipline, and thus must resort to the same "paper counselings", or as I term in the vernacular, "Pen-f*cking" (Pardon my French.), that we all must resort to, like the suspension in this case, which some may view as extreme, but that depends entirely on the school's policy of discipline, or actually the law in that particular location, since the teacher apparently took it as a threat of assault. Extreme? Maybe, but I'm sure that student and maybe others will think twice about overstepping professional boundaries. It's a shame that an honors student has such a blemish on his record, though.

I understand your point completely. The point I was making was that the authority of the teacher was gone a long time ago. The kids run the classroom now, and the kids/teachers know it. What I meant was if the teacher wants the classroom back, it needs to get back to the formula that gave them control. Corporate punishment needs to return. Back in the days, teacher gave a damn, sometimes too much of a damn. Now teachers don't care anymore, and they are scared, and the kids are taking full advantage of it. Give them a backbone and get their classrooms back, or the alternative is the kids will start teaching themselves😀

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Despite the fact corporate punishment is far beyond my time, I agree that it's presense, even as an implied threat or cautionary, would make some ammount of difference.

The only problem is bringing it back. How exactly would teachers and schools do that?

How do schools change the mind of congress and of the parents? Parents are being conditioned by their children, just as teachers are in the schools. How do you undo decades of the absense of corporate punishment?

If you really think about it, its us versus the children. They are the ones really pulling the strings.

Although the one thing that does stop me dead in my tracks is the idea of having children some day and then knowing I've helped bring corporate punishment back. I certainly don't want it to be abused, and as a protective parent, I wouldn't want my child to be dealt with in this way if it seems too extreme or unfair, or in such a way that I have no say in it at all and its out of my hands. I'd like to believe that I will in fact be a responsibile parent if I end up having a wife and children. Responsible above and beyond the point where corporate punishment would even be necessary.

 

[AffectionateDan]

Oh, yeahhhhhhhh?

HOW MANY COOKIE PUNS CAN YOU HANDLE, CHILDREN??!!

Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles! 😛

(have at thee!)

 

[Lazarus]

I don't know what the answer is, but....

The answer is NOT bringing back corporal punishment into the school system....

I was abused as a child, and will NOT subject my children to that....

I was beaten by a kindergarten sub teacher, with a yardstick to my rear, and had nails dug into my arms to the point of damn near breaking skin, not to mention the bullies and such....

Which is why

1. I learned self defense, and how to streetfight....

2. I vowed right then and there, that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES would I subject my kids to the same horrors....

I ever found out a teacher, priest, cop, mailman, milkman, whatever, ever did so much as try and hurt, or got physical with my 4 kids, they would find out just how well their medical plans are, depending on what they did, or tried to do with them.

I have, for a few years, taught my sons self-defense; they are young yet, but my youngest son is catching on very well.

When my daughters get old enough, they too will be taught as well, as women more than men, need to know these things nowadays....

The rules for my children behaving in school are simple:

1. Listen to the teachers, and work your best.

2. If ANYONE touches you in any inappropiate ways, you tell a teacher or myself...immediately.

3. If I get called to the principal's office for one of them being in a fight, I will ask a simple question:

"Who started it?"

My kid started it, I will deal with it when we get home-( No computer, time outs work well with them).

If the other kid started it, then my child will CONTINUE to defend him or herself, as often as necessary, until something is done about the bully(ies).

4. Do NOT run to a teacher or principal for help with a bully. This will make the situation worse in most cases....

Handle it yourself, and if it is in self-defense, I will stand by your side no matter what.


I have ranted enough....

Maybe if they improved working and pay conditions for the teachers, instead of the cutbacks that were worst seen starting with the Reagan Administration, there would not be such a problem today.

I have seen a few teachers who really love what they do, and are awesome with the children.

Then, on the other hand, my oldest son had a spiteful bitch of a teacher, that would NOT recognize his academic prowesses, such as being in first grade, and reading at an 8th grade level, among other things; chose instead, to bitch on his report card about how slow he eats lunch.

I still have the report card, and I shit you not.

My son read it, and was in tears.

Which prompted me, the very next morning, to visit the principal, raise hell, and demand that NONE of my children were to have her for a teacher...EVER.

I would have yanked my son out of the class, but there were only a few weeks left of school, and it would have been pointless....

I love my children dearly, and I would die for them in an instant if it would make their life better...

I am slow to anger, but once I am angered, it is hard as hell to sate me, especially when it comes to my kids....

I am sorry for the rant, but it hit a nerve....

I will now go and tickle Meems, to let a little stress out....

;p



Tickling Meems, and being threatened with a Lazenectomy......

 

[kis123]

To Lazarus:

I, above anyone else, can empathize with your bad memories of grade school. I, being the biggest kid in the classroom, was always an easy target for the kids and teachers as well. I was the regular punchline for anyone who needed someone to crap on. I do really know how you feel-more than I even care to admit.

However, when it comes to swift and immediate consequences, time outs and punishments just don't work. If they did, kids wouldn't be running around acting like they were just loosed from cages at the local zoo. When I was growing up, nothing hit the point home faster than a swift swat to the behind!

Our culture has already ruined our kids by removing corporal punishment from the classroom touting abuse as the reason. How much more abusive is it when the kids we send to school are now insulting, assulting, and even in some extreme cases, raping their teachers? What are we supposed to do now? What do you suggest that really has teeth in it that will get these kids attention and order back to the classroom and the teachers where it belongs?

I know I got way off the track by posting this one, but I really do want to know, what are the adults supposed to do now? We know what and where things went wrong. We empowered children entirely too much. They are called minors for a reason, and society has been treating them like little adults. But, when their antics hit your family, parents are held responsible. But, if we try to discipline them, society says we're abusing them. Back in my day, this wasn't so. If kids could make all these decisions and could manage themselves, why do they need parents? So, corporal punishment aside, what is the answer now?

 

[Amnesiac]

Our culture has already ruined our kids by removing corporal punishment from the classroom touting abuse as the reason.
-kis123

There's also a few other reasons...you again make the mistake of assuming that all kids react the same way to stimuli. You may be remembering the more common reaction to spankings: submission through fear of pain...a tactic, which I might add, is something we use on ANIMALS (by implication meaning that humans are animals too for all you religious types 😛). But there are kids who respond differently. If corporal punishment had been utilized in school when I was a child, I would be in prison right now because I would have gone back and tortured to death everyone who laid a hand on me; I am a VERY passive person, but I don't like being pushed around and I HOLD A SERIOUS FUCKING GRUDGE. My father hit me mildly on five separate occasions when I was younger and I only stopped planning my murderous intentions on him three years ago. There's still a few people out there though that I cannot say would live to see the next day if I met them tomorrow.

So you HAVE to consider the people like me, and those who are worse; we're out there and while some of us are noticeable to begin with, there are a lot of us who are otherwise calm and placid until we are pushed to the breaking point (which, for us, is very small). I've felt the way I do since I was very young, so to imagine that murderous intent is a LEARNED reaction is a fallacy.

How much more abusive is it when the kids we send to school are now insulting, assulting, and even in some extreme cases, raping their teachers? What are we supposed to do now? What do you suggest that really has teeth in it that will get these kids attention and order back to the classroom and the teachers where it belongs?

Now this one is a good question; and I have some good news. Not all kids are bad, this is a given. What is NOT well known is that they are often capable of great courage, strength, and altruism should the situation call for it. AND there are as many of these kids as there are the troublemakers you are talking about. But a major hindrance to this is the dual punishment programs in school; if a bully is pushing people around and someone comes out and beats him up, the intervener is punished along with the bully (in some cases more so) because the school sees violence as a disease and it doesn't want it corrupting the "good" kids. On top of that, these "good" kids are usually not very aggressive, and don't react with violence the same way that their enemies do, so when a fight becomes apparent, their first instinct is to back down because to them, it's not worth it.

If kids could make all these decisions and could manage themselves, why do they need parents?

EXACTLY. You touched on an argument that I made earlier that I'll only get into a little bit here. It is my own personal hypothesis that we deliberately arrange the education system and social system of children to make them dependent on us for support. Children can be very smart when learning is made fun, and if they had access to unlimited resources that appealed to them, they might surpass us earlier than we'd like...mostly before we'd be able to implant our own social values on them to get our selfish needs met (anybody here get nagged by their parents about giving them grandkids? and that's just ONE of them).

Now Lazarus illustrated a few good points with his itinerary.

You have to look at a school as a miniature community, much in the same vein as an anthropologist would study a primitive society. There are ebbs and flows of power based on appearance, sexual amativeness, and personality; there is a system of trade and commerce, even in grades when money is rarely used (anybody here ever trade lunches before?) based on supply and demand; AND there is a political system, not entirely unlike our own...and vies for power and justice DO happen, but are often suppressed by the administration to maintain the heirarchy of adult supremacy.

I'm not suggesting a Lord of the Flies atmosphere or means of maintenance, BUT kids know how adults react and how other kids react, and they are more afraid of their own kind than the administration: adults are seen as outsiders and oppressors...people who don't understand. Running to the administration to solve a bully problem weakens your position among your peers as a sign of timidity AND snitchiness (if you are willing to tell on a bully, you might be willing to tell on anybody). Yes, there must be an adult presence to maintain order, BUT being dealt with by the administration is only a pacifying setback...being dealt with by one of your own peers has a permanent influence on your support structure and your perceived image.

 

[AffectionateDan]

Dumb kid (redundant, I know, but still...)

He shoulda just tickled her!

 

[kis123]

Re: Dumb kid (redundant, I know, but still...)

He shoulda just tickled her!

Now that would've been interesting!!!! 😀

 

[natural tickler]

Well, let's see if I can put the finishing touches to this thread:

Bottom line is we live in a society that thinks that talking and giving time outs works. Let me tell ya, it doesn't. All it does is give the kid cart blanche to do whatever they want. We need to go back to the old days and get ass whipping back to the norm. As a soon to be dad (1 month left thank God), we have to let these kids know that we brought you in, we take you out, and we'll make another one look just like you. These kids are out of control, and spineless parents aren't doing anything to get control back

off my soapbox now, and you can return my 2 cents if not satisfied🙂

 

[gekoman]

brought you in, we take you out, and we'll make another one look just like you

I think thats the last thing you would want to say to a kid... I mean what are you really saying anyways? Obey or I'll kill you and make a new kid? Anyways I agree that whippings work, but to an extent. You can't beat a kid... thats wrong, but in some cases a kid lears through spankings. Ok they are just like animals, my dog pisses in the floor alot, I spanked her a couple of times and she goes to the door now when she needs to go. She learned and she's still alive and she respects me, like kids.

There's a kid in my town who is 13 years old. Now this is stupid, but he talks alot about Yu-Gi-Oh! Right? He'll stop me in the road and show me his cards. Well once he showed me his cards and I reached for them and he took them away laughing, so when he turned I jokingly took them. Well you know what he said to me?

"Give them back or I'll kick your fucking ass."

Wow... I mean a little 13 year old said that to me... I'm 18 by the way. Now tell me if I stood him in a corner and said no to him do you think that would change his mind about cussing? No... Listen if you spank your kid and they hate you for it, than thats them. Your trying to show them right from wrong, and that duty to us as parents. If we just say no and they kill a teacher than its our faults for not cracking on them. Now this kid with cookies, it's stupid and they should let it go... a month detention? When I was in school I got kicked out of school because of an argument with another peer.

 

[Limeoutsider]

Re: I don't know what the answer is, but....

4. Do NOT run to a teacher or principal for help with a bully. This will make the situation worse in most cases....

I can attest to that

 

[natural tickler]

Gekoman, let me let you in on a little secret:

The days of slap on the wrist, time outs, and talking era is not working. Why not? because my friend, the parents have lost their backbones, the teachers are spineless, and the kids are in control. They have an ally now, and its called the police. The mere mention of that word, and the parents back off. The kids smell blood in the water, and they are coming in for the kill. How many times have you heard about kids killing parents? How many times you heard that the kids are the ones running the house?

Maybe we need to put an APB out on strong, dominant firm parents. They are a dying breed.

AFA my comment on we bring you in we take out, well let me put it this way:

My mother when I was 7 years old brought all my sisters and brothers to the living room one day, (this was a time period when we all pushed the envelope a little bit). anyway, she defined our relationship just like that- she brought us in, she takes us out, and she'll make another one look just like me. Well, she did for two reasons:

1)to get in our minds she was in charge. And if we crossed the line there was hell to pay, and it has no fury than the wrath of a mother scorned😛

2)to know that the only way to avoid being sent to the principal's office was to simply obey. and you know what? it worked. And now we are raising our kids the exact same way as she did.

I'll be a father in about a month, and my girls will know that any violation of my rules will reslut in a trip to the woodshed, and their behinds will have another color added to their backsides.

My mother also told us this: the day we think that we are more grown that she was, was the day we moved out the house. Fortunately, none of us thought we were😀


off my soapbox for now. My 2 cents is returned is not satisfied

 

[kis123]

Gekoman, let me let you in on a little secret:

The days of slap on the wrist, time outs, and talking era is not working. Why not? because my friend, the parents have lost their backbones, the teachers are spineless, and the kids are in control. They have an ally now, and its called the police. The mere mention of that word, and the parents back off. The kids smell blood in the water, and they are coming in for the kill. How many times have you heard about kids killing parents? How many times you heard that the kids are the ones running the house?

Maybe we need to put an APB out on strong, dominant firm parents. They are a dying breed.

AFA my comment on we bring you in we take out, well let me put it this way:

My mother when I was 7 years old brought all my sisters and brothers to the living room one day, (this was a time period when we all pushed the envelope a little bit). anyway, she defined our relationship just like that- she brought us in, she takes us out, and she'll make another one look just like me. Well, she did for two reasons:

1)to get in our minds she was in charge. And if we crossed the line there was hell to pay, and it has no fury than the wrath of a mother scorned😛

2)to know that the only way to avoid being sent to the principal's office was to simply obey. and you know what? it worked. And now we are raising our kids the exact same way as she did.

I'll be a father in about a month, and my girls will know that any violation of my rules will reslut in a trip to the woodshed, and their behinds will have another color added to their backsides.

My mother also told us this: the day we think that we are more grown that she was, was the day we moved out the house. Fortunately, none of us thought we were😀


off my soapbox for now. My 2 cents is returned is not satisfied

Let me satisfy your 2 cents, NT;

I was raised in exactly the same way. If we messed up (and it didn't take much to mess up in my or my father's home) your behind paid the price. I have five sisters on my mom's side and a sister and brother on father's side. I remember a confrontation my brother and father had when I was a teenager. I have a grown son to give you an idea of how long ago that was. My brother thought he was going to smoke weed and come into my father's house. My father met him at the door and a confrontation ensued. There were two hits--my father hit my brother and my brother hit the floor! He didn't bring drugs into my father's house again.

I have no problem with my children with drinking, drugs, smoking, or promiscuity (which is a teen parents nightmare). One of the major reasons I don't have those problems is because the way I raised them when they were younger. Chidren need to know that there are either rewards or reprecussions for their decision making. I had no problem applying the board of education to the seat of knowledge, if you know what I mean!

Parenting ain't for cowards! If you're scared of your children, shame on you! If they can't follow the house rules, they don't need to be in the house.

 

[natural tickler]

Ah, nothing like the good ol days!! If we want the children to behave, and get control back, that's where we need to go. Plain and simple😀

 

[Flatfoot]

Parenting ain't for cowards! If you're scared of your children, shame on you! If they can't follow the house rules, they don't need to be in the house.

Interesting. I like the way you put that.

 

[Roseblossom]

I'll be a father in about a month, and my girls will know that any violation of my rules will reslut in a trip to the woodshed, and their behinds will have another color added to their backsides.

I suggest you take parenting classes - they do a great job these days of education and support.
[ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=parenting+classes]

Studies show overwhelming evidence that children who are punished like that grow up to be violent and/or victims of violence.

~Rose~ seriously

 

[kis123]

I suggest you take parenting classes - they do a great job these days of education and support.
[ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=parenting+classes]

Studies show overwhelming evidence that children who are punished like that grow up to be violent and/or victims of violence.

~Rose~ seriously

Dr Spock and all of his decendents are one of the major reasons kids act the way they do now. All of that talking, reasoning, time-outs, and other psycho-babble is fine and dandy. When that doesn't work, it's time to go to the woodshed!

Once again, what worked for me and those before me still works. If you don't believe me, just ask my well adjusted, confident, hard working, productive children. When my daughter was very small, she was a tyrant who wanted control of everything and everyone. She defied me at every turn knowing her father would back her up. When punishments did not work, I paddled her behind until she got the understanding that she wasn't ruining my home and running my show. Instead of my daughter turning into a spoiled, over indulged, menace to society, she knows her boundaries, is much more respectful and caring, and loves me 100%. She tells me her father gives her what she wants, but her mother gives her what she needs. She certainly isn't violent or emotionally damaged goods like the psychologists would like you to believe.

Your professionals call it abuse, I call it taking and keeping control of my home. I'm not letting a child boss me around, and I'm not afraid to take whatever steps are necessary to remind that child that he/she is the child and I'm the boss in this house.

Raise your children any way you desire. But I will not have a bunch of people tell me how to raise my kids under any circumstances. If they think they could've done any better than me, they are welcome to come to my house, get these kids, and raise them.

 

[Roseblossom]

Think of it as accepting all the resources available, instead of looking at it as a bunch of people telling you what to do. There is so much to learn.

Parents need all the help they can get - it can't hurt to look at all the new information and research.
[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Parenting+classes]

~Rose~

 

[gekoman]

When I was about 13, nobody in THEIR RIGHT FUCKING MIND would ever mouth off like that to an 18 year-old. Why? Because he would kick the living shit out of you and nobody would feel the least bit bad for you: you pushed your luck with the wrong guy and it cost you. I think it is a common problem that today's youth bite off more than they can chew because they haven't really faced direct consequences of their actions. When your parents spank you for doing whatever, that's an outside force exerting its will on you...when one of your peers or a stranger kicks your ass, THAT is a direct cause-and-effect and you learn pretty quickly about what you can and cannot do.

(Trust me my first thought was to smack the crap out of the kid, but also his brother was there. I could take him since he was sixteen, but 2 things stopped me. One I wasn't about to fight a sixteen year old, and a thirteen-year old. And second I was on the bus, I need a licence... Maybe I'll scare the kid bad enough he'll not talk that way to me again, but until then...)