The American Navy at its dimwitted best.

[JoBelle]

OK, so I'm watching the news and there are a lot of stories that really caught my attention tonight.

The IRA issuing the first public apology in its history.

Sad-Ass Hussein declaring that America's grief with him is obviously an attack on all Arab nations.

More savage behavior by the Palestinians.


THEN...the Navy's bit came on.
Let's forget the fact that humans can't get along. Let's allow the by product of human greed be just that...a natural flow of horrid behavior. Let's let the evil that is the animal in us just "be." We have a say in the outcome simply because we are fighting with our own race.

BUT...when the American Navy decides to use a sonic underwater tracking device that they KNOW causes pain, physical damage and death to the largest and grandest mammals on the planet Earth....yes whales and other marine mammals....well, I give up. "We won't use it within 12 miles of coaslines." Well, great....that's a releif. They said this device sends out underwater sound that is equal to standing next to a jet that is taking off. Let's get the fucking idiots who came up with this idea to stand next to a few jets on the runway each time they "track" a "possible target."

Yep, let's just shove that pulse of sound into the bodies of every marine creature because the "enemy" has a submarine that is more quiet than it used to be.
Yep, I'm ranting!
Yep, I'm venting!
Yep, I dig the dolphins.
YES...I live on a coast line. The beach is LITERALLY my backyard. This is a tender subject to me. Right now they are just commenting on the marine mammals because they capture our fascination and hearts. What happens when it starts to effect everything in the water....oh say, every fish in the sea and bird on the surface of it.

I'm about to sign my resignation papers from the "Modern" world and find a more simple life. God I'm sick of us!

Joby...Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[Biggles of 266]

I'd be careful what I said about the US if I were you Joby... Can anyone else say 'Big Brother'? How about 'Dubya Jurgen'?

God I love living in Australia...


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html

US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies
By Ritt Goldstein
July 15 2002


The Bush Administration aims to recruit millions of United States citizens as domestic informants in a program likely to alarm civil liberties groups.

The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity".

Civil liberties groups have already warned that, with the passage earlier this year of the Patriot Act, there is potential for abusive, large-scale investigations of US citizens.

As with the Patriot Act, TIPS is being pursued as part of the so-called war against terrorism. It is a Department of Justice project.

Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits.

A pilot program, described on the government Web site www.citizencorps.gov, is scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants participating in the first stage. Assuming the program is initiated in the 10 largest US cities, that will be 1 million informants for a total population of almost 24 million, or one in 24 people.

Historically, informant systems have been the tools of non-democratic states. According to a 1992 report by Harvard University's Project on Justice, the accuracy of informant reports is problematic, with some informants having embellished the truth, and others suspected of having fabricated their reports.

Present Justice Department procedures mean that informant reports will enter databases for future reference and/or action. The information will then be broadly available within the department, related agencies and local police forces. The targeted individual will remain unaware of the existence of the report and of its contents.

The Patriot Act already provides for a person's home to be searched without that person being informed that a search was ever performed, or of any surveillance devices that were implanted.

At state and local levels the TIPS program will be co-ordinated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which

was given sweeping new powers, including internment, as part of the Reagan Administration's national security initiatives. Many key figures of the Reagan era are part of the Bush Administration.

The creation of a US "shadow government", operating in secret, was another Reagan national security initiative.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

 

[Mimi]

I am with you, Joby. When I saw that report on the news the other night, I wanted to throw something at my screen and hunt down the bastards that designed this new sonar tracking device. I pray to god the activist groups prevent them from using that damn monstrosity. How unbelievably cruel and heartless.

Mimi

 

[Deleted member 2452]

i'm with you joby

speaking as a former soldier, the rust picking squids never had any sense!
but the real blame should go to the people who invented this sonar device.
dear biggles, i always wanted to visit "down under", but with anti americans lie you, i think i'll refrain. look what happened to your countries crime rate since your goverment took away all private gun ownership! last i read they are now trying to figure out how to let people own guns again w/o looking like the biggest fools in history!
seems they are worried that they may be open to law suits for having destoryed all the fire arms, and then admitting they were wrong to take them away in the first place!
seems america is still the best, and freeest place to live. at least we can say the goverment (nasvy in this case) is wrong w/o fear of a knock on the door in the middle of the night!
steve

 

[evilqueen]

Biggles isn't anti-American because he criticizes the USA. He's got the right to criticize, and to love his own country over America.

Biggles, I wouldn't worry about the TIPS program. I still remember Whip Inflation Now, and Just Say No, and a couple other government initiatives with catchy names; none of them panned out. Americans are just too lazy-assed apathetic. TIPS reminds me of Daddy Bush's "thousand points of light," only this time, instead of being volunteer saints, Dubya wants us to be volunteer snitches. Wonder if we all get Junior G-Man badges.

"In the name of the United States government, I order you to take off those shoes - they might be bombs....now I'm gonna check for terrorists between your toes...." 😀

 

[Haltickling]

Back to the topic, please...

It's horrible to hear about more and more species getting extinct from this planet, and it doesn't make any difference whether they are mammals, insects, plants or what not. IMO, this planet will strike back one day by extinction of the most destructive species: mankind.

But I agree that whales are special: they belong to the most intelligent animals, and they inhabit a place which isn't our element anyway: the oceans. We are intruders there, and we should be very careful not to destroy a potential living space for the future of our overcrowded world. The oceans still harbor by far the biggest resources for our future, certainly not to be endangered before we even understand its value.

I've heard the singing of whales, and I've seen quite a few. It's an incredibly powerful feeling you get when you hear their song. Certainly the inventors of that new Navy device were deaf to it, and they will remain deaf when they hear the complaints from the 'environmentalists'. The same goes for the military, who obviously consider it a matter of National Security. They won't realize that the survival of Earth is infinitely more important, because without Earth there won't be any nation to protect.

There was a Star Trek episode in which a powerful alien threatened to destroy Earth if it didn't hear the singing of whales there any more. I don't think this should be taken literal, more as a metaphor…

I really don't know why this thread has to be hijacked for completely unrelated political discussions, Biggles and Steve. This topic alone bears more than enough explosive material in itself.

 

[ShiningIce]

The shocking part is that there are actually people stupid enough out there that think whale killing is ok.

 

[siamese dream]

war

Thanks for your post JoBelle. I just wondered how this device kills whales and marine animals? Does the sound cause them injury somehow? Is the sound used to bounce off of other submarines to locate them?

You know, when I think of war I tend to feel sadness for the human loss of life, but the toll on the enviornment is enormous as well. Any bomb that a human can't survive, most animals and plants won't survive either. I can't understand what we think we will gain by destroying each other. I agree with Hal; I think one day nature may strike back at us, and attempt to eliminate the source of all this pain and destruction...humans. That is, if we haven't already blown ourselves up before then.

I'm heading a little off topic, but I must say that I'm tired of all this crap on TV about "drugs support terror, this nation supports terror, this group supports terror". WAR supports terror. I feel great sadness for what happened at the world trade center and the pentagon, but it only saddens me even more profoundly to think about what we're doing now. We're sending our young men to die in the desert, on a mission to destroy other humans on a mass scale. Do we honestly think we're restoring peace and order to the world??? Yes, I think the Afghan people should be liberated from Taliban control, but it isn't only the terrorists who are being killed. It's civilians too. If you don't think so, you're living in a dream world. The more people we kill over there, the more hatred we're spreading...and I think the more terrorism we will create. More of them will want to start a revolt against the western world. Because to us, they are the terrorists, but to them, WE are the terrorists.

What happened on 9/11, and our subsequent military response, are two sides of the same coin: humans are being destroyed on a mass scale, either way. I don't support any violent war, and I guess that makes me a pacifist. I knew after the attack that we would go to war, I knew absolutely that there was no other option, it was a given. But I don't agree with it, and I don't support it. Vengeance is a huge american obsession, but no matter how many arabs we kill, it will never bring back the ones who died in the trade center. All it does is invite them to attack us even more, which will lead to another military response from us, etc. A downward spiral.

Some people might say "war is human nature, we can't escape it". I think we can, if we stopped allowing ourselves to be conditioned to believe only what society pounds through our heads; if we could learn to respect humanity as a whole. I guess what I'm saying is that we would need to transcend our current society's values. Which I think is unlikely, as I'm a very small voice in a very big, loud scream of war and revenge. It's not just America, though America is a key piece of this whole picture. It is happening this way all over the world. I am not anti-American, I believe strongly in freedom and equal rights for all people. Our freedom is being threatened, and not by terrorists, but by war. I believe our country is in big trouble, as is the rest of the world... I'm beginning to honestly feel like the end of the human race may happen within my lifetime.

Yeah, I know, I'm full of doom-and-gloom crap, right? Well, when it's my time to die, I will accept it... it will happen for all of us one day. But until then, I will continue to oppose the destruction of humanity... I would not want to leave this world with the guilt of knowing I'd destroyed another.

 

[shark]

That's what sonar does.The sound waves are sent out,return when they contact objects,and are recorded for things like speed,distance,type of object,etc.It is the underwater version of radar.

Sound waves can definitely be harmful and/or fatal when strong enough or when a subject is exposed to them long enough under the right conditions.

However,there may be a simplistic solution.The whales,dolphins,etc. are capable of moving away from the source of sonar.Without any details about the strength of the sonar waves, or deployment of the devices,I would first guess that they will do just that.Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[red indian]

Look at it this way..........

How about if bin laden gets his hands on a nuclear sub?.....who cares about sea food then???

 

[WallStreet]

Appropriately post number 911

Good point by Red Indian. I certainly have no desire to see noble animals such as whales or dolphins destroyed, but I also have no desire to see buildings destroyed either.
As far as citizen spies go, we are in a situation here in the USA where people who appear to be neighbors are suddenly crashing planes into buildings. Almost all of the 9/11 hijackers had residences in small towns in New Jersey. The East Germans didn't have unprovoked terrorists crashing planes into buildings. This is not a "so called" war against terrorism. It's not easy fighting scum who hide like cowards.
There are members of this forum, like Journeyman, who are currently serving in the Navy. As an American who was a stone's throw away from the WTC on 9/11 I can say that these guys have my full support.
There is nothing wrong in having pride in your home country, wether it be Australia (which is a beautiful country), Germany, Canada, or the USA. I am glad to be an American. I would not want to live anywhere else. If you look hard enough you'll find the armies of other countries commiting far worse attrocities than our Navy.
The best part about America is that unlike Cuba, if you don't like it you can leave.

 

[Oblesklk]

Wow, JoBelle and Biggles have brought up the very two newest additions to our American society that has caused me more than just a little concern. The oceans are one of the few frontiers left virtually untouched by our irresponsible agendas. It's a shame we endanger our aquatic neighbors because we think the Russians, Chinese, axis of evil, Moon Men, or whoever else we're fighting this week are "up to no good."

I love this country's principles, but at times I wonder how in God's name we allow such asshats into positions of power.

 

[evilqueen]

The best part about America is that unlike Cuba, if you don't like it you can leave.

IMHO, the best part about America is that unlike Cuba, if you don't like it you can change it.

 

[SuperMario]

?

Priorities.

Where are they?

Would you rather live in in fear and have some whales around or live in freedom and have a few hurting sea mammals?

God told Adam and Eve to multiply and become the masters of their domain. he put animals here for us to eat!

What the fuck do whales do for you or me or anyone else? The reason you actually give a shit about whales is because you have been afforded that luxury. you don't have to worry about people trying to kill you, do you? That's what our military is there for! They are doing their best to make sure you go to sleep at night comfortably. If you don't like it, go somewhere else and fear for yourself and your children. The reason we have people like Bin Laden, is because people are jealous of you! They fear for their lives each and every day, and we don't. You need to take a look around and be happy with what you have and not whine about chickenshit little things like whales.

peace and God Bless.

ekiM

 

[Haltickling]

Priorities indeed!

Not everything you don't understand is therefore worthless, but that's exactly how we are behaving now, and that's what I'm objecting to. "Kill it, it's worthless anyway, and right now our National Security / our justified economic interest / our religion / our democracy (tick off your choice) has got absolute priority."

I won't go into details about the value of a genetic pool, about plankton as main future protein source, about the delicate balance of nature, about the oceans as a future place for us to live. Not in our time, maybe in a hundred years or so. Yes, we should plan in that time range, not in election periods. I worry about the future of my grandchildren's grandchildren. But for some people, the horizon ends at the rim of their pizza.

I'm not condemning military technology, and I'm not denying the necessity of preparing against imminent danger. I'm just pointing at a perspective that we're about to destroy something equally important on the way: our future. It reminds me of the circus bear who was very loyal and devoted to his master. One day, the bear sees a mosquito landing on his master's neck. With a quick slap of his huge paws, the bear kills the mosquito - and his master…

 

[BigJim]

Hmmmm, America may be the country I'd most like to emmigrate to in the world, but it sure ain't as free as you'd like to believe. Any country that has the religios authorities invested with so much power as to curtail shopping hours is definatley suspect. Also any program that doesn't confirm to the "accepted" norm can be sunk because the gits who are advertising in between segments will withdraw their advert slots and bankrupt them.

On top of which in California it's illegal to walk backwards, whilst eating peanuts, during a rock concert. 😕 😕 😕 Mad, but true. America has the most developed media system in the world, which means that a lot of freedoms can be used by it's citizens. However those channels can also be manipulated by the ..ahem.."la-le-lu-li-lo." Yeah, I know. A sad analogy, but hopefully one that will make sense. I know I spend too much time playing video games.

There are a lot of freedoms that I'd take for granted living in the UK, but I ould'nt be afforded that liberty in the states because people in high positions disapprove and use their influence to block it. Having said that, if I could I'd emmigrate to the states in a heartbeat. Why? Because I like the people.

 

[WallStreet]

EvilQueen-- excellent point. It is those who strongly act that make the greatest changes.
--------------------------
Although SuperMario may have had a bit of enraged rant in his post, he did make some good points as well. When you look at the way people in Afghanistan live it really shows you part of the real world. The poor people that were bullied by the Taliban are still living in shithole conditions. The lucky Afghanistanians are the ones in the Cuban jail. For them, that jail is the equivelent of the Waldorf Astoria. The people who are homeless and starving in this world don't have the luxury of worrying about the whales or anything else. Even the luxury of coming to the TMF and posting opinions is more than many people have.
--------------------------
Marauder-- the original intention WAS for man to be the kings of the world. We just haven't done a very good job of it. Unfortunately things will probably get worse before they get better.

 

[Strelnikov]

Quoting BigJim:

"Hmmmm, America may be the country I'd most like to emmigrate to in the world, but it sure ain't as free as you'd like to believe. Any country that has the religios authorities invested with so much power as to curtail shopping hours is definatley suspect"

Jim, it isn't the religious authorities, it's citizens acting through their elected officials. Preachers can say what they want, but unless the people agree, the pols won't do jack. That's democracy in action.

Quoting again:

"Also any program that doesn't confirm to the "accepted" norm can be sunk because the gits who are advertising in between segments will withdraw their advert slots and bankrupt them."

The purpose of television is to sell beer, soap, mouthwash, cars, etc. If the show doesen't bring enough viewers to see the adverts, those gits will indeed pull their spots. That's free enterprise in action.

Strelnikov

 

[Neutron]

Good For The Navy..

Who cares about a bunch of dumbass whales? We are the top of the foodchain and whatever it takes to ensure the survival of Uncle Sam is quite all right with me. Hell, I'll donate to have more of these sonar things blasting through the ocean. If the whales don't like it, they can do something about it.

My guess is a lot of the people who are whining about it (and the perceived loss of civil liberties since 9/11)are the same people who were whining WHY DIDN'T THE GOVERNMENT PREVENT THE 9/11 ATTACKS????
If it takes hearings similar to the old McCarthy then so be it.

It's a new era people, get used to it.


Tron

 

[JoBelle]

Re: Good For The Navy..

Who cares about a bunch of dumbass whales? We are the top of the foodchain and whatever it takes to ensure the survival of Uncle Sam is quite all right with me. Hell, I'll donate to have more of these sonar things blasting through the ocean

This AMERICAN *GASP!* cares about the marine environment. THAT being said, if a few others don't hop on board the care wagon, there won't be much of a foodchain left for you on top.

There is much evidence to prove that we "all knowing and all powerful humans" are pretty accurate at shooting ourselves in the collective foot when it comes to the environment. Uncle Sam needs to refocus his ability if he can't do any better than this crap bit of technology.

Joby

 

[shark]

I wouldn't worry about the whales.They are smart enough to get out of the area when they first hear the sonar at its farthest range and won't venture closer just to cause themselves more problems.

Except for the ones into masochism,in which case they can have a ball.

 

[ShiningIce]

I care about a bunch of dumbass whales 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 Grow up, every creature on this planet has a role to play. Humans arent gods, and *gasp* yes even us Americans arent divine beings no matter how much ud want to believe!!! I'm trying not to make this a flame but u really make it difficult with ur obvious flame bait. If the whales die mark my words YOU will suffer the consequences and so will all mankind!!!!!!

 

[Mike_Edward]

I lost a number of good friends on 9/11. I live in New York City, and they worked in the Trade Center. And to make matters worse, as luck would have it, I was home that day, and saw the second plane hit from my apartment.

For those of you who complain about the actions of the American military, I hope you'll be just as vocal when those same people that we are trying to kill set off a nuclear weapon here. If we don't stop them, it's going to happen. We're fighting for our survival, but I am not sure we're going to win. Whether or not you want to believe that America is on the brink of catastrophe does not matter. Just wait.

 

[Dave2112]

Some good points were raised on both sides (although some more eloquently than others), but I think the military supporters are missing one point. The sonar tracking in question is designed to spot subs, right. References to 9/11 are kind of out of context with this. I hardly think that the camel-jockeys and cave-dwellers are going to get their hands on a nuclear sub. I know, I know...anything can happen, but that chance is like preparing for alien invasion.

I'm on the fence here. I support the military in what they try to do, but there is a level of resposibility for the rest of the planet as well. When I was a kid, we looked up to soldiers as not just fighters (hell, half of us were already fighters by that age), but as protectors and defenders. Not just defenders of our physical bodies, but our ideals as well. Most species on this planet live in some level of a symbiotic relationship, you must understand this. Just becuase you think it's foolish doesn't mean it will go away.

I fully support upgrading the military for our protection, but there has to be a balance as well. If we cause more harm than good, then they've won...and we've played right into their hands. We'll be self-destructing, which is more damage than any suicide bomber could dream of inflicting. Yes, there are times when progress means a species will die out. We can't protect every single organism on the planet. But, on the converse side, the higher species should not be arbitrarily destroyed just because we can. If this is the real way we think, then why did we send troops over to possibly get killed rather than just nuke the whole region?

I don't think that the designers of this technology had the initial intent to go out and kill whales. But now that they know it can happen, it's the responsible thing to do to modify the plan. Not scrap it altogether, but see what can be done. All new technology must be modified until it is perfected.

 

[siamese dream]

Re: Good For The Navy..

Who cares about a bunch of dumbass whales? We are the top of the foodchain and whatever it takes to ensure the survival of Uncle Sam is quite all right with me. Hell, I'll donate to have more of these sonar things blasting through the ocean. If the whales don't like it, they can do something about it.

My guess is a lot of the people who are whining about it (and the perceived loss of civil liberties since 9/11)are the same people who were whining WHY DIDN'T THE GOVERNMENT PREVENT THE 9/11 ATTACKS????
If it takes hearings similar to the old McCarthy then so be it.

It's a new era people, get used to it.

What if the cost is everything, our civilization, our species? Think about war, think about the advancement of war. We're slowly working towards being able to destroy more and more, the weapons get more sophisticated and powerful over time... I'm not really sure what else to say, your whole post just...ugh...

Yeah, McCarthyism, that was a great idea, lets lock up writers, artists, film makers, teachers, or anyone else who speaks out in defiance of the current system of law. That sure the hell works with the idea of preserving our freedom 🙄

I probably shouldn't have replied to this..oh well

Originally posted by Mike Edward:

I lost a number of good friends on 9/11. I live in New York City, and they worked in the Trade Center. And to make matters worse, as luck would have it, I was home that day, and saw the second plane hit from my apartment.

For those of you who complain about the actions of the American military, I hope you'll be just as vocal when those same people that we are trying to kill set off a nuclear weapon here. If we don't stop them, it's going to happen. We're fighting for our survival, but I am not sure we're going to win. Whether or not you want to believe that America is on the brink of catastrophe does not matter. Just wait.

I'm sorry about the friends that you lost at the trade center.

You're right, a terrorist group probably could try to set off a nuclear weapon here. But by going to war with the terrorist groups, we are only creating new ones. The United States is always going to have enemies, and if we destroy one enemy, our actions will only create more. We are putting ourselves even further onto the brink of catastrophe.

I have a lot I want to say, but I just don't know how or if I should say anything, since I have no possible solutions. War is inevitable, I knew we would go to war from the moment I watched the news on September 11. Perhaps we can't escape it, but I wish human beings as a whole could learn to accept one another and not try to destroy our own kind. I do not support war, because I don't believe that the taking of human life on a mass scale is right. I've become rather pessimistic about how this will all end, because I feel that we are not learning from the past, we can't learn to get past our hatred and live in peace... we keep going to war on each other, and will continue until we completely screw ourselves. It's a vicious cycle -- we're attacked, we defend by attacking them; they see us attacking them and try to figure out how to attack us back, if they succeed then we attack them for attacking us again, and so on. War is destruction, and I feel it may ultimately be the cause of the destruction of humankind.

To quote Albert Einstien, "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."