The super controversial thread = when does a fetish become an illness?

[some1somewhere]

Okay, I know this one will draw some pretty strong opinions, but it just occurred to me recently and I was wondering what the rest of you think.

First hear me all the way out. A pedophile is someone that is sexually attracted to children and/or seeks to fulfill that fantasy. We often call these people sick, and some mean that literally, as if they suffer from a disease. Most say that it can't be cured and that this is something that is with them for life. Some would say that it is a mental illness. A pedophile at its most basic, is a person with a fetish.

Now a ticklephile (as some have coined it) is someone that attraction to tickling and /or seeks to fulfill that fantasy. We really don't consider them sick, or having a mental illiness. But it is at its most basic a fetish.

Now I am not comparing the two as being the same. Tickling does not equal pedophile. Nor am I asking as to degrees of right or wrong on either. What I am wondering if all fetishes are a form of a mental disorder/illness? Should they be considered such? Should only certain ones be considered an illness? If so, where does one make the distinction?

I am only using tickling/pedophile as examples to put forth the question, so those subjects are not the issue, just the issue of a fetish itself.

Lastly I was not sure where to place this thread, I didn't think it should be in the tickling forum because tickling is not the subject. Nor did I think it should be in the P&R forum, because it deals with definitions of mental illness, not politics. This thought just popped in my head, and I wasn't sure of an answer, so I thought I'd bring it here, and see what happens (and hoping that it doesn't become a fire storm).

 

[nowayjose]

What I am wondering if all fetishes are a form of a mental disorder/illness? Should they be considered such? Should only certain ones be considered an illness? If so, where does one make the distinction?

IMHO, a fetish becomes problematic, when it's
a) obsessive, that is, you can't have sex without it, or
b) it is self-harming, dangerous to your physical or mental health (like fantasizing about your own castration), or
c) it is a danger to others (pedophilia, "real" violence/rape, etc.)

 

[Goodieluver]

I actually question the use of the word fetish.

I revealed to a friend that i fancied Feet. She said "Oh thats cool, as long as its not like a weird fetish"

I said "What do u mean?" and she said that "If you need to have feet constantly in your life then its a problem" or somethin to that degree

So is that a more viable definition of fetish, that its something that you need for sexual or just pleasure purposes?

 

[Redmage]

There's actually a technical, medical answer to this question. A fetish (paraphilia in psychology lingo) is considered to be a mental illness if and only if it meets the "clinical significance criterion." This is phrased in a few different ways, but generally it takes a form similar to this: "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

Or as a psychologist friend of mine put it once: "If it's not a problem, then it's not a problem."

Odd as it seems, even pedophilia is not considered a mental illness unless the person acts on it, or the person's fantasies cause him (or her) to feel marked distress or impairment. Fantasies in and of themselves aren't enough to meet the standard, no matter how bizarre or grotesque they would appear to others.

The main problem with the clinical significance criterion is that it's highly subjective. Clinical significance is determined by the professional judgement of a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist, and that's pretty much the only standard. Naturally there are some ailments (such as schizophrenia) that are considered clinically significant by their very nature. But otherwise unless a doctor says you're mentally ill, you aren't.

 

[some1somewhere]

There's actually a technical, medical answer to this question. A fetish (paraphilia in psychology lingo) is considered to be a mental illness if and only if it meets the "clinical significance criterion." This is phrased in a few different ways, but generally it takes a form similar to this: "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

Or as a psychologist friend of mine put it once: "If it's not a problem, then it's not a problem."

Odd as it seems, even pedophilia is not considered a mental illness unless the person acts on it, or the person's fantasies cause him (or her) to feel marked distress or impairment. Fantasies in and of themselves aren't enough to meet the standard, no matter how bizarre or grotesque they would appear to others.

The main problem with the clinical significance criterion is that it's highly subjective. Clinical significance is determined by the professional judgement of a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist, and that's pretty much the only standard. Naturally there are some ailments (such as schizophrenia) that are considered clinically significant by their very nature. But otherwise unless a doctor says you're mentally ill, you aren't.

Red, thanks for that info, this is the stuff I wanted to have people post.

 

[some1somewhere]

I actually question the use of the word fetish.

I revealed to a friend that i fancied Feet. She said "Oh thats cool, as long as its not like a weird fetish"

I said "What do u mean?" and she said that "If you need to have feet constantly in your life then its a problem" or somethin to that degree

So is that a more viable definition of fetish, that its something that you need for sexual or just pleasure purposes?

That is a good question, what actually is the definition of "fetish?"

 

[Mz Chaos]

Tickling fetishism is a sexual fetish related to gaining a specific sexual thrill from either tickling a sex partner or being subjected to tickling themselves, usually to the point of helpless laughter. Often this involves some form of restraint to prevent escape and/or accidentally hurting the tickler. Thus this fetish may coincide with various BDSM fetishes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tickle_Fetish

A condition in which arousal and/or sexual gratification is attained through inanimate objects (shoes, pantyhose) or non-sexual body parts (feet, hair). Is considered a problem when the object is needed in order to obtain arousal or gratification and the individual can not can not complete a sexual act without this object present.
allpsych.com/dictionary/dictionary2.html

A substance, object, or body part which is sexually exciting. Sometimes a fetishist may need the presence of the fetish to induce sexual arousal
www.grimesgrafix.com/welts/glossary.html

Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification. This category refers to non-specific fetishes (ie foot, bondage or clothing).
www.24houradultdvd.com/category.htm

Gotta love Google!

 

[Mz Chaos]

My question now is:
What is the love of tickling called if it is done just for pleasure and not for sexual gratification? By the definitions I found, it then would not fall under the qualifications of a fetish.
What about folks who just love to tickle for the gratification of seeing and causing the reactions of the ticklee... or the ticklee that enjoys to be tickled just for the ticklish sensations caused by the nerve stimulation of the tickler?

 

[BLUE_THUNDER]

i have read stories of freaky lurker types , probably read those accounts here, of people hiding under chairs in movie theaters and things of that sort waiting to tickle someone's feet or something. clearly at tha point it is not normal, and that type of behaviour i would classify as an illness. but just speaking for myself, tickling and sex dont always HAVE to go hand in hand, i am perfectly happy with a PG rated tickle encounter without anything else going on. but there was a time when i was younger i thought it was "weird" to be into tickling untill i stumbled onto the net in 2000 or so, and realized it wasnt just me. i mow the lawn, walk my dog, go to class, run a small business, and do "normal" things most people do. i certainly dont think i have any sort of illness, other than a slight addiction to posting on the TMF. just my 2 cents worth. peace........BLUE_THUNDER

 

[isabeau]

i would have to say a fetish could become an illness if it consumes your entire life. if that's all you think about, and putting other things aside in your constant pursuit of the so called fetish.. just my opinion..

 

[Dussicar]

i would have to say a fetish could become an illness if it consumes your entire life. if that's all you think about, and putting other things aside in your constant pursuit of the so called fetish.. just my opinion..

Perhapse. But I've had the displeasure of meeting people who are like that with straight-up sex.

I suppose a sexual fixation is a sexual fixation the world over but it still burns me up when those who mock our fetish for being sick also turn the other cheek when "Johnny knuckle-dragger" goes off on a tear about the only thing a woman is good for is sex.

It's living proof that desensitisation works if circulated in the mainstream since...Oh, the dawn of humanity itself.

 

[BellaRisa]

My question now is:
What is the love of tickling called if it is done just for pleasure and not for sexual gratification?

It's called just that, a love of tickling 🙂. I'm glad you brought this up, because there are a *lot* of 'lers and 'lees out there who absolutely adore tickling but aren't sexually aroused by it; both my SO's fall under that category. I'd even call it a borderline obsession with some that I've met, but if it isn't sexually stimulating I wouldn't call it a fetish.

Bella

 

[MrMacphisto]

I think we first need to express the nuances of pedophilia. In the interest of protecting our children, the laws regarding what constitutes as statutory rape are very simple. If you are a legal adult and have sex with someone younger than the age of consent in the state that the act occurs, then yes, you have committed statutory rape and can be considered a pedophile.

However, the actual phenomenon of pedophilia is far more complex. As with any mental condition, there are varying degrees of this disorder that have nothing to do with the legality of consent. Desiring to have sex with a 16 year old and desiring an 8 year old are radically different in their implications. In many states, both acts are illegal and are applicable to the same punishments, but I'd argue that sexual attraction to someone prepubescent is far more dysfunctional than sexual attraction to someone pubescent or postpubescent. The difference is in the biology and instincts involved.

You have to remember that, in the Middle Ages, it was not uncommon for girls to be wed as young as 13. In the cultural context of medieval Europe, a 13 year old girl could be considered an adult (for all practical purposes). Obviously, times have changed due to a dramatic increase in lifespan and in technology. Therefore, we've raised the age of adulthood to 18 -- although even some privileges are not applicable then (i.e. - drinking).

The point I'm making with this is that the age at which society defines adulthood is somewhat arbitrary and reflective of the times. Unfortunately, this creates confusion when dealing with the issue of pedophilia, since the laws are very simplified.

I would argue that having a sexual attraction to a 16 year old is a fetish, whereas with a 12 year old, it is clearly a disorder. Once again, acting on either is still illegal for most of us.

As for how this relates to tickling, it is a similar range of degrees. Enjoying the act of tickling with a friend, spouse, or spouse-to-be is indulging a fetish. Sneaking up on and tickling people you don't even know is acting on a disorder.

 

[Strider]

When it takes over your life and leads you to engage in destructive behavior. Admittedly, that's vague, but it's the best I can come up with.

 

[steph]

I call these people normal...
XOXO

My question now is:
What is the love of tickling called if it is done just for pleasure and not for sexual gratification? By the definitions I found, it then would not fall under the qualifications of a fetish.
What about folks who just love to tickle for the gratification of seeing and causing the reactions of the ticklee... or the ticklee that enjoys to be tickled just for the ticklish sensations caused by the nerve stimulation of the tickler?

 

[Mitchell]

To me, a fetish becoming an illness is when the fetish causes you to engage in behavior that is not socially acceptable, or, when the fetish makes you attempt to coerce, or force, others into engaging in the behavior, for you, or with you.
A fetish illness, to me, would be someone, who for example, walks up to strange women on the street, and kisses their feet, or tickles their feet. That to me, is someone who needs professional help.
That being said, I personally dont feel that engaging in a fetish during normal sexual activities with a willing partner is by any means an illness. If, for instance, tickling your partner's feet, or worshipping their feet, aids in one who has the fetish achieving arousal, and sexual pleasure, then more power to them! I do feel, that in such a case, the person with the interest or fetish should attempt to explain the fetish or interest to the partner before hand, and attempt to achieve some understanding, or compromise, or willingness, from the person, to help them indulge in their fetish. Randomly tying up and tickling a partner who has no inclination about a ticklephile's fetish, can be creepy, so, to me, communciation in that situation is key.

Mitch

 

[Amnesiac]

A therapist friend of mine said that the literature lists tickling not as a form of illness per se, but still a type of disorder. Reasons being that tickling is a form of pain (it travels along the same nerve endings and is received in very much the same way as pain), and that the act of tickling is very similar to the act of a sadist: it's YOU doing TO another person, not a mutually shared experience, and you receiving pleasure at another person's endurance, thus indicating that objectification is involved.

If this is true than I'm totally fucked because I'm an evil tickler and I'm hooked on it, so I got no way out.

On another note, s1s brought up an interesting point that the absurdist in me can't avoid: if someone desires children sexually but DOESN'T act on it, are they automatically demoted from "pederast" to mere "pedophile" or is there a lesser term than that even (like "non-practicing pedophile")? Or are they lumped together with the others?

 

[soleshine]

Technically, tickling is not a fetish because of the non-living object stipulation (see definition below). It's more like sexual sadism as mentioned by Amnesiac, but should really only be refered to as such, if the desire/need significantly impairs normal day-to-day functioning. They're both terms to describe problems, but have taken on additional meanings through overuse.

Most of us probably fall into the category that Steph so appropriately classified as "normal".

I copied these definitions from a post of long ago, but I originally pulled them from the DSM4 (used by psychiatrists and the like to diagnose mental illnesses). The original thread was about obsessive compulsive disorder in relation to tickling, but I just copied the definitions for Fetishism and Sadism because of their relavence here. I also threw in the Masochism def. for all those lees out there who might be interested.


Fetishism (must meet A, B, and C):

A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors
involving the use of nonliving objects (e.g., female undergarments).

B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational,
or other important areas of functioning.

C. The fetish objects are not limited to articles of female clothing used in cross-dressing (as in Transvestic Fetishism)
or devices designed for the purpose of tactile genital stimulation (e.g., a vibrator).

Here’s Sexual Sadism (must meet A and B):

A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors
involving acts (real, not simulated) in which the psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation) of the
victim is sexually exciting to the person.

B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational,
or other important areas of functioning.


Sexual Masochism (A and B):

A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors
involving acts (real, not simulated) of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer.

B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational,
or other important areas of functioning.