The WORST story ever...

[LovesHeels]

I dare you to read this and not feel anything but complete outrage. Anyone who says this part of the world is not living in the stone age should read this. So this is what they teach people, huh...

From the AP:

Pakistani Killed Daughters to Save 'Honor'
By KHALID TANVEER, Associated Press

MULTAN, Pakistan - Nazir Ahmed appears calm and unrepentant as he recounts how he slit the throats of his three young daughters and their 25-year old stepsister to salvage his family's "honor" — a crime that shocked Pakistan.

The 40-year old laborer, speaking to The Associated Press in police detention as he was being shifted to prison, confessed to just one regret — that he didn't murder the stepsister's alleged lover too.

Hundreds of girls and women are murdered by male relatives each year in this conservative Islamic nation, and rights groups said Wednesday such "honor killings" will only stop when authorities get serious about punishing perpetrators.

Speaking to AP in the back of police pickup truck late Tuesday as he was shifted to a prison in the city of Multan, Ahmed showed no contrition. Appearing disheveled but composed, he said he killed Muqadas because she had committed adultery, and his daughters because he didn't want them to do the same when they grew up.

 

[HisFlyinFingers]

Well, I certainly am not about to go down as being for murdering people, especially innocent children.

On the other hand, this is just a different sort of the terrible, suffocating ignorance found everywhere -- yes, that means the U.S., too. Obviously American women wouldn't regularly be murdered for (allegedly) committing adultery. Homosexuals, racial minorities, even people who vaguely look like Muslims, on the other hand, are attacked so regularly that it isn't particularly newsworthy in most cases.

I would love to think that the Pakistani culture that allowed this is barbaric, but it's not really any different than any other. Actually, the very fact that he is being effectively prosecuted is proof of this, given that many years ago he would have been lauded as a man who knew about the value of honor. Really, this is a case of an idiot doing something idiotic; Pakistani or otherwise he is completely worthless as a living organism.

 

[amk714]

Murder is wrong, no matter what the "reasoning" behind it is, and should be universally condemned and punished. But let us be mindful that "honor killing" does not in any way represent the true teachings of Islam, and thus only fanatics like Nazir Ahmed believe such a practice is in accordance with Muslim thinking. The same goes for terrorists and their warped view of the world.

 

[steph]

Horrifying as it is, this actually isn't all that uncommon. I recently read the most interesting and awful tale of similar events happening regularly to French Muslim women in Paris. The French government refuses to acknowledge and/or take action against women trapped in forced marriages, or who suffer from "honor crimes" and other violence against them. Want to help? Call 011-33-143-577-628 or email [email protected].
XOXO

 

[sole seeker]

You're right, I'm outraged.

I'm familiar with the nuts in this country who kill their children for one insane reason or another. Basically the keyword there is insane.

From your story this seems to be a cultural thing.

Reminds me of some old western movies that you see occasionally on TV. (The Searchers with John Wayne comes to mind.) A girl is kidnapped by indians and is therefore tainted. A 'death before dishonor' type reaoning insues. ("Kindest thing - a bullet in the brain-pan.")

Makes no sense now. Funny that it made enough sense 50 years ago that we could understand it as a sub-plot in a movie.

Thank heaven John Wayne came around to reason and took the girl back to her family... but it was a close thing!

 

[His Divine Shadow]

Sadly, this has been going on for a very long time. I'm surprised it took so long for it to filter into mainstream US media. As with so much man does to himself, I can only shake my head and sigh.

 

[ViperGTS]

Unfortunately, this is another example of the way things are done in countries other than our own. We may not think it is right, but the person perpetrating these actions thinks it's fine. Yes, this story angers me, but what can be done about it?

 

[some1somewhere]

I think that michelle malkin said it best when she linked to the story with the phrase "unspeakable evil."

 

[milagros317]

These honor killings, a ghastly and evil practice, are all too common in that part of the world.

 

[drew70]

This is very typical in regions dominated by Islamic fanatacism. When a religion teaches such practices, maybe it's time to examine whether or not such a religion has a place in modern society.

 

[MrMacphisto]

I agree that much of Islamic culture is plagued by rampant fanaticism. Christian culture is bad enough about it in its own right, but Islam takes the cake. At least our fundamentalists don't usually kill people (much less their own family members). I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies for saying this, but I think the world would be a much better place if Islam had never been created in the first place....

 

[steph]

Well, the real problem is that women are treated worse than dogs in these cultures. Never mind the fact that they were the ones that gave birth to those assholes in the first place. They have no rights, no voice and no protection. In the story I read, those who escaped live in constant fear that their families will hunt them down and find them, because they know if they do, they will kill them. Absolutely horrifying.
XOXO

 

[isabeau]

also dont forget is many of these countries, the wives are castrated somehow.

isabeau

 

[steph]

I beleive they remove the clitoris hon, since that's the source of pleasure. If I had more guts, I'd bomb the place myself.
XOXO

also dont forget is many of these countries, the wives are castrated somehow.

isabeau

 

[MrMacphisto]

Well... that's not really the answer to the problem, but it appears that we tried something similar with Iraq...

 

[steph]

I know babe, I'm just expressing frustration and talking out my ass. (We overly emotional Italians do that sometimes!)
XOXO

 

[Amnesiac]

This sort of thing is an ingredient in every culture across the globe regardless of "civilization". The fact of the matter is that every culture has certain classifications of women as a means of maintaining population balance; the only difference is in the way that bias manifests itself; in Middle Eastern cultures it's physically barbaric and in Western it's socially confining. And all of these practices are designed to do something we don't even really register anymore: to outdo the competitor.

Shortly before Bush was re-elected, a series of articles appeared in newspapers noting the "epidemic" of the lower birthrates in Western cultures in comparison to the higher birthrates in Middle Eastern countries. These frightengingly serious articles called for people in America (and in Japan lately too) for people to "perform their duty" and get married and breed so that we won't be swallowed by an invading immigrant people. If you ever saw the movie Braveheart, this might sound familiar: cross-breeding with other nationalities was a popular and ancient way of "weeding out" undersirables and supplanting them with "proper blood".

Anyone who has also read the Dune books will recognize the Middle Eastern cultural design: no matter what part of the world humans develop in, any people living in harsh climates, especially desert regions, develop the most severe adaptative behavior. High mortality rates, low resources, and no room whatsoever for mistakes, indiginous desert cultures have the sternest punishments, the most inflexible doctrines, and utilize irreversible cutting rituals (like circumcision) as a means of stabilizing the people against the stress of living in such a place. A woman who can have children by anyone other than her husband can cause quite a bit of social trouble in tribal communities where bloodlines are considered sacred, so the laws concerning them often become the most brutal. Sure, there's plenty of evidence that women can be as sexual as men...but if that understanding interferes with efficiency, the laws will specifically denounce that consideration.

The Middle East is going through right now what the West went through (and is still going through) several hundred years ago: confronting the realization that cultural attitudes may need adjusting. What makes it so difficult is the fact that religion (JUST like Christianity and Judaism) merges cultural practice with absolute truth AND collective identity. So likely, this man who murdered his children believes wholeheartedly that his culture is a basis of the absolute way things have to be, and that doctrine takes precedence over humanity. In all 3 monotheistic religions, doctrine ALWAYS takes precedence over humanity...it's how the law was worded when written down.

BUT...there's good news. Just as there were dissenters and radicals in European culture who resisted the Church, so too are there dissenters and pro-democratic (and pro-republican and pro-communist) forces in the Middle East going as far back as Fuwati in the 13th Century...we just never hear about them because the Middle East is a more unstable region and the ferocity of the culture and version of Islam make it difficult for them not only to publish, but also to escape.

Although this man should be incarcerated (and probably executed), note the fact that his belief in his cultural doctrines echoes similar sentiment among the Christian fanatics in this country. When you consider how much success the Americans have had in disassembling the new wave of Christian medievalists, amplify that problem to the 10th power and you'll see how much harder it's going to be in the Middle East.

I firmly believe that there will be a cultural shift in the Middle East...but it's going to take 2-3 gargantuan civil wars to do so. Let's hope it doesn't have to happen that way here too.

 

[MrMacphisto]

You make some good points, but all I can say is... I'm really glad I live here and not over there.

 

[isabeau]

You make some good points, but all I can say is... I'm really glad I live here and not over there.

me also, i need my clit lol sorry trying to lighten up the mood a bit.

isabeau

 

[HisFlyinFingers]

lots of good points

This is more along the lines of what I'm talking about. Here's something more to thing about, however: this sort of thing happens a few hundred times a year in this region (Southwest Asia). Obviously, once is too much. However, given the population density of the area, it happens with about the same frequency as similar crimes here.

The murder in the OP's news report is going to be excecuted, following a proper trial (considering he freely admits to the killings, it won't be a long trial). I fail to see what about this society deserves your hate, when this is no different from a guy in New York killing people because a dog told him to.

 

[Amnesiac]

It's actually not hate, it's more of a measure. The man in question on this topic believes (we've been thus told) with absolute indissoluable certainty that he is right. Chances are, it's a combination of fanatical religious and cultural fealty. Given the nature of the region in which he lives and the type of the religion he follows, his resolve is completely unbreakable. No matter how long he lives, it is likely this man will never entertain the notion that he was harsh and unfair; his beliefs will insulate him from doubt.

Someone who is incapable of introspection is a hazard, yes. Someone who cannot be reached, worse. But someone who is both these things AND capable of such a DEGREE of violence against such specific people with TOTAL CONVICTION is the ultimate embodiment of danger. This kind of person is too dangerous to keep alive.

I don't believe in the death PENALTY...I believe in the death MEASURE. Some people are simply too dangerous to keep alive because there is no form of rehabilitation or education that can reverse the homicidal qualities in them. The death PENALTY is usually applied to people who kill one to two people for animalistically simple motives after going several decades without any previous behavior; it's based on justice and revenge and the idea that if they kill ONCE, they'll kill again. It's how a lot of innocent people get incarcerated/executed by mistake and how a lot of juror bias infects the courts.

The death MEASURE is what I feel should be applied to sociopaths, psychopaths and certain "career" criminals...people who cannot empathize or sympathize with other humans or people whose belief systems interfere with their humanity to the point of violence or abuse. People who cannot be "fixed" or educated about their mistakes. The guy in New York who kills people because his dog told him to should be liquidated if his condition can't be improved with medication and he doesn't agree with experimentation, because he exceeds acceptable danger levels and cannot be brought back down. A man who kills another and realizes his fault and has actual remorse (turning a new leaf for real) doesn't have to be destroyed; a child who kills small animals and buries them ritualistically in a cooler in the park does.

On top of that think about this: if you had to choose between dying with your beliefs intact and living with someone else's, which would you choose? And keep in mind that this scenario includes "hostile takeover by an evil totalitarian empire" situations. Which is more humane?

 

[drew70]

Well... that's not really the answer to the problem, but it appears that we tried something similar with Iraq...

Tried what? Removing Saddam's clitoris?

 

[MrMacphisto]

Tried what? Removing Saddam's clitoris?

Yes... the clitoris missile is quite deadly. It penetrates most defenses...

But seriously, I was referring to the "bombing" reference that steph mentioned. We've tried bombing Iraq, which may have gotten rid of Saddam, but it hasn't changed the fact that we're dealing with various cultures that are vulnerable to religious extremism (and often treat their women like crap). The Pakistani guy in this story is just another example of extremism within a different (but in some ways, similar) Islamic culture. Although in Iraq, the problem seems to involve just killing people in general rather than honor killings....

 

[steph]

I know what you meant honey... 😛
XOXO

But seriously, I was referring to the "bombing" reference that steph mentioned.