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Undesired Tickling/Touching, Please Read
- Thread starter BellaRisa
- Start date
First, Bella I don't mind since this does seem like a topic that should be addressed. Now to refer back to the original thread: the man wanted to know if it was ok to tickle his daughter in law, and he was given advice on the subject. We, however, were given this guy advice postively and negatively without knowing the details of the relationship between his daughter in law and him. A lot of assumptions were made by those on both sides.
A realtionship and rapport are the keys here. This should determine the boundaries of your touching. Now do you need expressed verbal or written consent? No, I don't think so, because it takes away from spontaneity of the event. I remember a few years ago in college there was this ultra-feminist giving this presentation and make arguments that you needed express verbal permission for any touching. For example, "may I kiss you", "can I put my hand on your leg", and "may I touch your breast." Now I attended this presentation with a women friend of mine, and she told me that if a guy ever did that to her she would kick him out of the bedroom. Why? In her opinion, asking permission for everything would be a passion and a romance killer"
Now, just because I don't believe you need expressed verbal or written consent, does not mean that person's body belongs to you. Sometimes people(who may have liked being tickled in the past) are not in the mood to be tickled or touched, and they will usually express so. You should always respect their wishes.
As for the topic of stangers, should you tickle them? I would have to say that it's probably not a good idea. I do have to admit that I have tickled stranger before, and with positive results. That is to say that none of the strangers seemed very upset. They took it as harmless fun. But the truth is I got lucky. I still think you are asking for trouble, and it is not something I plan on doing anytime soon. I don't have problem, however, tickling someone I just met if a certain type of rapport can be established. If you meet a woman and she is very flirtatious and is very touchy herself then I find nothing wrong with giving her a tickle. She'll usualy view as flirtation from you.
Well those are my thoughts on the subject.
A realtionship and rapport are the keys here. This should determine the boundaries of your touching. Now do you need expressed verbal or written consent? No, I don't think so, because it takes away from spontaneity of the event. I remember a few years ago in college there was this ultra-feminist giving this presentation and make arguments that you needed express verbal permission for any touching. For example, "may I kiss you", "can I put my hand on your leg", and "may I touch your breast." Now I attended this presentation with a women friend of mine, and she told me that if a guy ever did that to her she would kick him out of the bedroom. Why? In her opinion, asking permission for everything would be a passion and a romance killer"
Now, just because I don't believe you need expressed verbal or written consent, does not mean that person's body belongs to you. Sometimes people(who may have liked being tickled in the past) are not in the mood to be tickled or touched, and they will usually express so. You should always respect their wishes.
As for the topic of stangers, should you tickle them? I would have to say that it's probably not a good idea. I do have to admit that I have tickled stranger before, and with positive results. That is to say that none of the strangers seemed very upset. They took it as harmless fun. But the truth is I got lucky. I still think you are asking for trouble, and it is not something I plan on doing anytime soon. I don't have problem, however, tickling someone I just met if a certain type of rapport can be established. If you meet a woman and she is very flirtatious and is very touchy herself then I find nothing wrong with giving her a tickle. She'll usualy view as flirtation from you.
Well those are my thoughts on the subject.
I hope this isn't going to be considered a hijacking, but...
Bella, this post reminds me of a long debate I got into with somebody in the old chatroom. I'll spare you the gory details, but the concept of tracking the ticklishness of celebrities inherently disturbs me. Precisely, I believe, for the reasons you state; tickling is a personal thing that over-eager "fans" of the activity try to rationalize into being no big deal so that they can impede upon other people's privacy and/or personal space so that they may explore that person intimately.
Most of the opponents to my argument said that, in essence, trying to find out intimate personal details about a person in the public view (essentially, violating the privacy that person should be entitled as a human being) is "okay" because they invite it upon themselves. The fact that a lot of the rationalizations I see here usually start with "they're always barefoot, so..." they must be inviting something.
A saying I've always liked goes like this;
"Your right to express yourself by punching me in the nose ends at my face."
You cannot do something to someone else that they don't want you to do. I learned to keep my hands to myself in nursery school, it's amazing how many people haven't.
Bella, this post reminds me of a long debate I got into with somebody in the old chatroom. I'll spare you the gory details, but the concept of tracking the ticklishness of celebrities inherently disturbs me. Precisely, I believe, for the reasons you state; tickling is a personal thing that over-eager "fans" of the activity try to rationalize into being no big deal so that they can impede upon other people's privacy and/or personal space so that they may explore that person intimately.
Most of the opponents to my argument said that, in essence, trying to find out intimate personal details about a person in the public view (essentially, violating the privacy that person should be entitled as a human being) is "okay" because they invite it upon themselves. The fact that a lot of the rationalizations I see here usually start with "they're always barefoot, so..." they must be inviting something.
A saying I've always liked goes like this;
"Your right to express yourself by punching me in the nose ends at my face."
You cannot do something to someone else that they don't want you to do. I learned to keep my hands to myself in nursery school, it's amazing how many people haven't.
BellaRisa
4th Level Blue Feather
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Thank you Iggy, I really like what you had to say and I agree with you on most every point 🙂. I would also be creeped out by a guy asking such questions, though to be fair by the time he got to my room we'd be pretty much past that awkward beginning of the relationship.
The only part on which I may differ with you is in reference to the girlfriend's daughter thread. I re-read it, and I can see where one might think that folks were assuming things. To me though, as soon as the thread-starter mentioned that she didn't care for being tickled (the "stop it, you know I'm ticklish!" part) even by her own hubby, it was a given that he should probably leave them foots be. I could be wrong, but that's how I perceived the matter.
Bella
The only part on which I may differ with you is in reference to the girlfriend's daughter thread. I re-read it, and I can see where one might think that folks were assuming things. To me though, as soon as the thread-starter mentioned that she didn't care for being tickled (the "stop it, you know I'm ticklish!" part) even by her own hubby, it was a given that he should probably leave them foots be. I could be wrong, but that's how I perceived the matter.
Bella
Re: I hope this isn't going to be considered a hijacking, but...
I don't know why you have such a problem with this, since most of the information is found in chats with celebs. The celeb has the choice whether or not they want to answer this question. I would be concerned if someone advocating breaking into a star's home to find out if she was ticklish, or sending out a secret agent to go tickle her. I do agree with you on the barefoot statement though. A lot of people walk around barefoot and it is not because they secretly want to be tickled. I alway thought that line of reasoning was ridiculous. Walking around barefoot just means you like walking around barefoot. There is no hidden meaning there.
Phineas said:
I don't know why you have such a problem with this, since most of the information is found in chats with celebs. The celeb has the choice whether or not they want to answer this question. I would be concerned if someone advocating breaking into a star's home to find out if she was ticklish, or sending out a secret agent to go tickle her. I do agree with you on the barefoot statement though. A lot of people walk around barefoot and it is not because they secretly want to be tickled. I alway thought that line of reasoning was ridiculous. Walking around barefoot just means you like walking around barefoot. There is no hidden meaning there.
bella said:
That might be the case Bella but I'm not sure. I don't know in what context "stop it, you know I'm ticklish" was said. It may have been playful, or it may have been a threat. I know girls that have said the same thing, but they were playfully egging me on. Also it is possible that she wasn't in the mood to be tickled right then and there. Then again maybe she hates to be touched on her feet. These all unknowns. I don't know what type of relationship this guy has with his daughter in law. He said it was "good". I don't know what that means. That's why I said only he can determine if the tickling is right or wrong. Because everybody else does not know the details of the relationship.
BellaRisa
4th Level Blue Feather
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Re: Re: I hope this isn't going to be considered a hijacking, but...
Ok, I do think this kinda goes under thread hi-jacking though it is similar, so I'm gonna ask that we take this to a new thread after my reply:
THANK YOU PHINEAS!!!!!!!!😎 😎 😎
Every time I see one of those posts of "Miss-Current-Big-Boobs is going to chat tonight, who's gonna ask THE QUESTION???" my colon gets it's clench on. I am one of the females on this planet who could give a rat's heinie about how Madamoiselle Big Boobie lost weight/got divorced/screwed alien twins. And asking them about intimate details of their lives is, to me, a huge neon sign that your blow up doll has more of a life than you. It's not whether they have to answer, but that my fellow ticklefolk would be tacky enough to ask-and yes, I think it's a creepy question, along with does she like being spanked and can you have some of her underwear since you're her biggest fan?? 🙄
I'm not saying it's wrong to ask, but it *is* rude as hell. Do you think she goes home fantasizing about the Handsome Mystery Man who asked if she was (sigh)ticklish (swoon), or the Pimply Faced Geek who asked if she was (ick) 'ticklish' (ew)?
Bella
Iggy pop said:
Ok, I do think this kinda goes under thread hi-jacking though it is similar, so I'm gonna ask that we take this to a new thread after my reply:
THANK YOU PHINEAS!!!!!!!!😎 😎 😎
Every time I see one of those posts of "Miss-Current-Big-Boobs is going to chat tonight, who's gonna ask THE QUESTION???" my colon gets it's clench on. I am one of the females on this planet who could give a rat's heinie about how Madamoiselle Big Boobie lost weight/got divorced/screwed alien twins. And asking them about intimate details of their lives is, to me, a huge neon sign that your blow up doll has more of a life than you
. It's not whether they have to answer, but that my fellow ticklefolk would be tacky enough to ask-and yes, I think it's a creepy question, along with does she like being spanked and can you have some of her underwear since you're her biggest fan?? 🙄 I'm not saying it's wrong to ask, but it *is* rude as hell. Do you think she goes home fantasizing about the Handsome Mystery Man who asked if she was (sigh)ticklish (swoon), or the Pimply Faced Geek who asked if she was (ick) 'ticklish' (ew)?
Bella
The thread got hijacked
I think if we wish to discuss the morality, rudeness, or such about asking celebs if they are ticklish then we should probably start another thread. I think it is an interesting subject and it probably needs a thread of its own.
I think if we wish to discuss the morality, rudeness, or such about asking celebs if they are ticklish then we should probably start another thread. I think it is an interesting subject and it probably needs a thread of its own.
BellaRisa
4th Level Blue Feather
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RIF: Reading is Fundamental
Um, that's why I said:
"Ok, I do think this kinda goes under thread hi-jacking though it is similar, so I'm gonna ask that we take this to a new thread after my reply:"
Even though *I'm* the thread-starter. See how cool and thoughtful I am?
Bella
Iggy pop said:
Um, that's why I said:
"Ok, I do think this kinda goes under thread hi-jacking though it is similar, so I'm gonna ask that we take this to a new thread after my reply:"
Even though *I'm* the thread-starter. See how cool and thoughtful I am?
Bella
*grabs the thread and forcefully tries to steer it back on topic*
Actually, while I agree that the debate about the practice itself merits moving (and I may do it, if I feel like inviting flames), the concept is the same as with people rationalizing the welcomeness of their non-consentual tickling that bella asked about in the OP; they want to explore the intimate details of someone else that interests them, and since it's "just tickling" they use the opportunity to satisfy their urges, the feelings of the other person be damned.
anyway. answer bella's questions, folks. she's got some legits here.
Actually, while I agree that the debate about the practice itself merits moving (and I may do it, if I feel like inviting flames), the concept is the same as with people rationalizing the welcomeness of their non-consentual tickling that bella asked about in the OP; they want to explore the intimate details of someone else that interests them, and since it's "just tickling" they use the opportunity to satisfy their urges, the feelings of the other person be damned.
anyway. answer bella's questions, folks. she's got some legits here.
ticklevids
TMF Master
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Can we PLEASE do a reality check...
i've participated in some of these threads only to be called names and the like... But I'm not asking for sympathy in the least because I think there is a naivete going on and thats how some respond to their lack of knowledge.
So, if I buy a non-con video does that make me insensitive to the 'victims' feelings? If I tickle a lover who begs me to stop does that make me a rapist? Even though afterwards, after hot sex, she lets me do again, begging me to stop, does that make me equivalent to a criminal? Or at the least immoral? That seems to be the consesus of the vocal minority(yes, minority. I know for a fact most into this fetish prefer the harder side of it from my own research while I owned a company)
I'm one of the few hear who will say unabashedly, YES, I like noncon without reservation. Yes, I do participate in it ( to a mild degree I suppose). No, I don't go kidnapping people. No, I don't force women into bondage. No, I dont' have a dungeon in my basement. Yes I love to read, see, and think about it.
Bella, you are obviously an intelligent woman. Articulate and well spoken. But in a previous thread you asked me if I would consider getting raped by 6 'large men' an enjoyable experience. And to that I reply, "you've got to be kidding". Talk about apples and oranges.
Though it is my opinion Bella, that men on this board will fall over themselves to rush to your side and agree with anything you say (because of the lack of female participation in relation to the large male numbers...), i think that you can do better than a comparison such as that.
And unless I am seriously misinformed, there is no non-con tickling going on. Really, stop and think. Or at least learn from what I'm about to say....
Some of you seem to think of non-con as some sort of snuff film, or at least equivalent in the diatribes I've read. Let me assure you, if it was going on by some crazy ass tickle torture club or participants, we'd know about it. the stories we read by some of the authors are just that: stories! It isn't happening in real life-at all or, believe me it would be available to purchase, it would be known to bondage and 'hardcore' players. Because as most of you dont' seem to know, tickling isn't even on the freakin' radar screen of people who know and make hardcore videos. Do you have ANY idea of what is really out there? To purchase? do you? Or is tickling the worst torture and deprived activity you can think of? If it is, great for you. I wish I didn't know what I know honestly.
So while you have these arguments and threads, what do you think is going on? That there are kidnappers and serial tickle clubs making off with young girls right now? Do you? Who exactly are you guys lecturing? Who are you passing judgment on? Who do you feel the need to correct?
I love the messages about the 'contract under duress'. Man, that would be a great episode of the practice wouldn't it? You've got to be joking.
There is a guy on here whose name I can't recall who said something to the effect of the fact that you won't see a law suit by a model in a noncon video because their really hasn't been one made.
I am inclined to agree.
i've participated in some of these threads only to be called names and the like... But I'm not asking for sympathy in the least because I think there is a naivete going on and thats how some respond to their lack of knowledge.
So, if I buy a non-con video does that make me insensitive to the 'victims' feelings? If I tickle a lover who begs me to stop does that make me a rapist? Even though afterwards, after hot sex, she lets me do again, begging me to stop, does that make me equivalent to a criminal? Or at the least immoral? That seems to be the consesus of the vocal minority(yes, minority. I know for a fact most into this fetish prefer the harder side of it from my own research while I owned a company)
I'm one of the few hear who will say unabashedly, YES, I like noncon without reservation. Yes, I do participate in it ( to a mild degree I suppose). No, I don't go kidnapping people. No, I don't force women into bondage. No, I dont' have a dungeon in my basement. Yes I love to read, see, and think about it.
Bella, you are obviously an intelligent woman. Articulate and well spoken. But in a previous thread you asked me if I would consider getting raped by 6 'large men' an enjoyable experience. And to that I reply, "you've got to be kidding". Talk about apples and oranges.
Though it is my opinion Bella, that men on this board will fall over themselves to rush to your side and agree with anything you say (because of the lack of female participation in relation to the large male numbers...), i think that you can do better than a comparison such as that.
And unless I am seriously misinformed, there is no non-con tickling going on. Really, stop and think. Or at least learn from what I'm about to say....
Some of you seem to think of non-con as some sort of snuff film, or at least equivalent in the diatribes I've read. Let me assure you, if it was going on by some crazy ass tickle torture club or participants, we'd know about it. the stories we read by some of the authors are just that: stories! It isn't happening in real life-at all or, believe me it would be available to purchase, it would be known to bondage and 'hardcore' players. Because as most of you dont' seem to know, tickling isn't even on the freakin' radar screen of people who know and make hardcore videos. Do you have ANY idea of what is really out there? To purchase? do you? Or is tickling the worst torture and deprived activity you can think of? If it is, great for you. I wish I didn't know what I know honestly.
So while you have these arguments and threads, what do you think is going on? That there are kidnappers and serial tickle clubs making off with young girls right now? Do you? Who exactly are you guys lecturing? Who are you passing judgment on? Who do you feel the need to correct?
I love the messages about the 'contract under duress'. Man, that would be a great episode of the practice wouldn't it? You've got to be joking.
There is a guy on here whose name I can't recall who said something to the effect of the fact that you won't see a law suit by a model in a noncon video because their really hasn't been one made.
I am inclined to agree.
here is my two cents...... it basically comes down to seperating FANTASY and REALITY. most of us realize we may never get a chance to ever tickle a celebrity or a co-worker, and we want to know if they are ticklish. if presented thoughtfully, it can seem like a playful question. i dont see anything wrong with it. hell, a celebrity may love that question because you know they get a LOT more perverted type questions. as for nonconsentual tickling, of course we dont condone "true" nonconsentual tickling. what i mean by "true", is if someone where to kidnap a complete stranger, or even a loved one and tickled them against their will. in other words, they truly, deep down, do not want to be tickled. there are people i know that i want to tickle the complete daylights out of them, but you can tell, it is not a playful thing for them. a person's body language, and demeanor will let you know this.
i think we like the fantasy about it. to tickle someone against their will is a strong fantasy amongst ticklers. but, the key point is, fantasy. not reality. as tempting as it is, i will not go out an attack a stranger because it will be "cool". i tickle people that i know well enough for them NOT to be upset with me when i do tickle them. i am a playful guy, and usually they think i am being "me" when i do poke their sides or stroke their foot. i have to have a comfort level with them. the last thing i need is assualt charges, because they will do a lot more deadly things than tickling me in jail.
to those who cringe when posters want to ask a celebrity if they are ticklish, just keep in mind, they are just curious, so they can satisfy a fantasy. that is why you see so much happiness when a celeb actually answers the question. to the people who like consentual tickling only, keep in mind that you had to "find out" if the person is ticklish or not right? how did you find out? did you ask them or maybe a playful stroke? that is the same M.O. that us nonconsentual fans use as well.....
bottom line, if a person cant seperate fantasy from reality, they deserve whatever consequence there is....
i think we like the fantasy about it. to tickle someone against their will is a strong fantasy amongst ticklers. but, the key point is, fantasy. not reality. as tempting as it is, i will not go out an attack a stranger because it will be "cool". i tickle people that i know well enough for them NOT to be upset with me when i do tickle them. i am a playful guy, and usually they think i am being "me" when i do poke their sides or stroke their foot. i have to have a comfort level with them. the last thing i need is assualt charges, because they will do a lot more deadly things than tickling me in jail.
to those who cringe when posters want to ask a celebrity if they are ticklish, just keep in mind, they are just curious, so they can satisfy a fantasy. that is why you see so much happiness when a celeb actually answers the question. to the people who like consentual tickling only, keep in mind that you had to "find out" if the person is ticklish or not right? how did you find out? did you ask them or maybe a playful stroke? that is the same M.O. that us nonconsentual fans use as well.....
bottom line, if a person cant seperate fantasy from reality, they deserve whatever consequence there is....
ForgottenTcklr
4th Level Red Feather
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The question here is... what is the pretense?
I mean, do you know the person your tickling at all? I mean it would be kinda weird to just go around tickling people! If they are your friends then I don't see the problem, but you shouldn't just tickle complete strangers, unless the show hints of flirtation!
I mean, do you know the person your tickling at all? I mean it would be kinda weird to just go around tickling people! If they are your friends then I don't see the problem, but you shouldn't just tickle complete strangers, unless the show hints of flirtation!
ticklevids
TMF Master
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alright I will....
This question is flawed in it's delivery. Who said this? I didn't. As far as I've read, nobody I know said women are supposed to allow others to touch them. Why is this being asked? Isn't this about nonconsenual tickling? Who said about 'allow'. The point is that noncon tickling IS resisted. That's what makes it noncon. Women, or men for that matter aren't supposed to 'allow'.
No idea of where this is coming from. Who said anything about annoying women? These questions are leading....
Who said it was? I don't think it is okay....
simple... anyone does not want to have anything done against their wishes.This has nothing to do with gender. What I see in these threads is a leap of gigantic proportions, with words used such as rape. Again, I am saying this as a man, who while a noncon lover, would never resort to illegal tactics such as kidnapping or jeez... anything of the sort. And I again ask you to read my previous post to understand that I think that those who are into this fetish think that there is some sort of crazy ass tickling conspiracy going on. Man... take it easy. And I respectfully submit that some of the TMFer's need a new hobby.
In my opinion, the noncon lovers are numerous and probably the majority. But that doesn't matter. What is a bummer and really a slap in the face to those of us who do like it is when people are comparing our likes to criminality.
This question is flawed in it's delivery. Who said this? I didn't. As far as I've read, nobody I know said women are supposed to allow others to touch them. Why is this being asked? Isn't this about nonconsenual tickling? Who said about 'allow'. The point is that noncon tickling IS resisted. That's what makes it noncon. Women, or men for that matter aren't supposed to 'allow'.
No idea of where this is coming from. Who said anything about annoying women? These questions are leading....
Who said it was? I don't think it is okay....
simple... anyone does not want to have anything done against their wishes.This has nothing to do with gender. What I see in these threads is a leap of gigantic proportions, with words used such as rape. Again, I am saying this as a man, who while a noncon lover, would never resort to illegal tactics such as kidnapping or jeez... anything of the sort. And I again ask you to read my previous post to understand that I think that those who are into this fetish think that there is some sort of crazy ass tickling conspiracy going on. Man... take it easy. And I respectfully submit that some of the TMFer's need a new hobby.
In my opinion, the noncon lovers are numerous and probably the majority. But that doesn't matter. What is a bummer and really a slap in the face to those of us who do like it is when people are comparing our likes to criminality.
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The debate seems to have broken into two pieces that are not meeting in the middle:
1) A aspect that is focusing on it 'being OK' to have non-con fantasies.
No one here has said it's not cool to have such fantasies. Most here probably do. Fantasies are just that, and fantastic to boot. Anything goes. No one here will dispute that. If this is your fantasy then more power to you! Enjoy all you like. What you do in the privacy of your own head is always your business.
2) The other aspect is about basically "When is it cool to touch another person'. This aspect has moved on to carry 'rape' connotations because the 'bad touch' analogy is the simplest one to make when discussion this question, and it's an escalation of scale that seesm to follow naturally. It's not the degree of rape they are trying to convey, but the concept of a personal form of violation.
the cross of these two topics has the non-com fantasy lovers feeling as if the 'bad touch' folks are calling them rapists. It makes them cranky.
So... let's clear things up.
Try discussing the topic this way: When is it approproiate to tickle a person? When is it not, and why? This is a boundry question at it's core.
Back to the discussion: This has been a test of the Myriad Worlds broadcasting network. It has only been a test. If it had been an actual flame the thread would have vanished.
Myriads 🙂
1) A aspect that is focusing on it 'being OK' to have non-con fantasies.
No one here has said it's not cool to have such fantasies. Most here probably do. Fantasies are just that, and fantastic to boot. Anything goes. No one here will dispute that. If this is your fantasy then more power to you! Enjoy all you like. What you do in the privacy of your own head is always your business.
2) The other aspect is about basically "When is it cool to touch another person'. This aspect has moved on to carry 'rape' connotations because the 'bad touch' analogy is the simplest one to make when discussion this question, and it's an escalation of scale that seesm to follow naturally. It's not the degree of rape they are trying to convey, but the concept of a personal form of violation.
the cross of these two topics has the non-com fantasy lovers feeling as if the 'bad touch' folks are calling them rapists. It makes them cranky.
So... let's clear things up.
Try discussing the topic this way: When is it approproiate to tickle a person? When is it not, and why? This is a boundry question at it's core.
Back to the discussion: This has been a test of the Myriad Worlds broadcasting network. It has only been a test. If it had been an actual flame the thread would have vanished.
Myriads 🙂
Myriads: I admire clarity. You have cleared things up. Therefore, I admire you.
Ticklevids: <sigh> I must accord you the minimum repect due to all people. But I cannot admire your clarity, as I have been unable to discern any. Certainly, keep expressing yourself. But, if I may be so bold as to offer unsolicited advice, you should strive for more coherence and structure in your rhetoric. You will stand a better chance of swaying others to your viewpoint if your viewpoint is made more intelligible. Also, the degree of heat in your posts brings to mind a certain Biblical quote: "The guilty flee when no man pursues." Perhaps a drier, cooler tone will help.
Ticklevids: <sigh> I must accord you the minimum repect due to all people. But I cannot admire your clarity, as I have been unable to discern any. Certainly, keep expressing yourself. But, if I may be so bold as to offer unsolicited advice, you should strive for more coherence and structure in your rhetoric. You will stand a better chance of swaying others to your viewpoint if your viewpoint is made more intelligible. Also, the degree of heat in your posts brings to mind a certain Biblical quote: "The guilty flee when no man pursues." Perhaps a drier, cooler tone will help.
siamese dream
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- Points
- 0
My basic thoughts on this... I don't feel too terribly strongly one way or the other. I wouldn't like a strange person touching me, but I wouldn't get offended if someone I didn't know tickled me or touched me without my prior consent. If that was the person's way of flirting with me, then I'd either flirt back or tell them to fuck off. My problem would be if they continued to try to touch me after I had told them to leave me alone. I wouldn't get all pissed off if a guy I didn't know started tickling me... but if I told him to stop and that I didn't want him to do that, and he kept trying to anyway, then I'd be upset. I would hope most guys would rather talk to me and get to know me first before they jumped all over me... that doesn't always happen though, and I think most women are touched nonconsentually by guys they don't know. Men can be pigs, and some of them just grab and don't care. That type turns me off... I wouldn't be deeply offended or anything though, I'd just tell the guy to leave me the hell alone and he'd better listen to me. I'd rather meet a guy who wants to talk to me and get to know me first before ever trying to cop a feel. I'm pretty sure such a guy would be able to tell if his advances would be welcome, because I'm pretty honest and would tell a guy if I enjoyed his company. If I didn't want him to touch me, all I ask is that he doesn't touch me anymore if I tell him to stop. A guy that won't listen to that is pretty scary and I'd rather avoid such forceful men. I have no problem with any guy I say "no" to and he respects my wishes. What more can I ask?
Blah Blah Blah....
"Men are Pigs!!" "How dare you ask for my number even though I sit in front of the mirror for 3 hours!!" ("Why I am really doing this though, is to feed my ego, which is so huge now that it rivals the amount of make-up on my face!")
Here is my view on this matter...If a guy tickles you to flirt with you, or to start a playful conversation, whats the big deal? Are you SO special that you can't be touched? That attitude is all to common, and is what has made me bitter towards women in general. (Not pointing fingers, just telling you how I feel through past experiences) Now I am not ignoring the fact that in certain situations, it is not right to just go up to a stranger and touch/tickle them....but seriously, is it really THAT bad?? Will your pride be tarnished forever?? Lighten up, people. My girlfriend, Michelle, is the ideal woman for me...Laid back, easy to talk to, and most of all, she knows about a little thing called mutual respect, something that most women have no clue about. On November 23rd, I plan on asking her to marry me. I can only hope that there are other women out there for some of you guys who want a real woman.
-my 2 cents (puts up flame shield)😎
"Men are Pigs!!" "How dare you ask for my number even though I sit in front of the mirror for 3 hours!!" ("Why I am really doing this though, is to feed my ego, which is so huge now that it rivals the amount of make-up on my face!")
Here is my view on this matter...If a guy tickles you to flirt with you, or to start a playful conversation, whats the big deal? Are you SO special that you can't be touched? That attitude is all to common, and is what has made me bitter towards women in general. (Not pointing fingers, just telling you how I feel through past experiences) Now I am not ignoring the fact that in certain situations, it is not right to just go up to a stranger and touch/tickle them....but seriously, is it really THAT bad?? Will your pride be tarnished forever?? Lighten up, people. My girlfriend, Michelle, is the ideal woman for me...Laid back, easy to talk to, and most of all, she knows about a little thing called mutual respect, something that most women have no clue about. On November 23rd, I plan on asking her to marry me. I can only hope that there are other women out there for some of you guys who want a real woman.
-my 2 cents (puts up flame shield)😎
BellaRisa
4th Level Blue Feather
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2001
- Messages
- 5,974
- Points
- 38
Response to Ticklevids
I would like to address Ticklevid's responses to my words, I am respectfully asking the mods to let it stay though it may seem outside the bounds of the original thread. Ticklevid's words are in quotations.
"So, if I buy a non-con video does that make me insensitive to the 'victims' feelings? If I tickle a lover who begs me to stop does that make me a rapist? Even though afterwards, after hot sex, she lets me do again, begging me to stop, does that make me equivalent to a criminal? Or at the least immoral? That seems to be the consesus of the vocal minority(yes, minority. I know for a fact most into this fetish prefer the harder side of it from my own research while I owned a company)"
Um, I'm not talking about nonconsensual videos at this time, not sure why it was brought up here. I'm asking about real people in real situations. Also, you describe a lover who says 'no no' but comes back for more. Heck, that's about half the 'lees on this forum (myself included) and certainly doesn't make you a rapist. A willing ticklee is all good, which is pretty much my point. And btw, I still have a small company, and my own research says otherwise. But you can't trust these surveys...
"I'm one of the few hear who will say unabashedly, YES, I like noncon without reservation. Yes, I do participate in it ( to a mild degree I suppose). No, I don't go kidnapping people. No, I don't force women into bondage. No, I dont' have a dungeon in my basement. Yes I love to read, see, and think about it."
Again, I'm not discussing this type of scenario. But I'm glad you're not a kidnapper. Personally, having my own dungeon in the basement is a goal of mine-beats driving across town everytime I wanna shoot a video. And for the record, I have no issue with fantasy non-con, and have in fact agreed to shoot such a video in the near future.
"Bella, you are obviously an intelligent woman. Articulate and well spoken. But in a previous thread you asked me if I would consider getting raped by 6 'large men' an enjoyable experience. And to that I reply, "you've got to be kidding". Talk about apples and oranges."
Thank you for the compliments, you're pretty darn sharp yourself!
But I disagree about the 'apples and oranges'. The thread to which you refer involved support for tickling people against their will, which several folks, including you (to my memory, forgive me if I'm wrong), seemed to support. I inquired as to whether it would be okay if you were held down against your will and *I*, not the strong guys holding you, did things to you that you clearly didn't like but didn't actually cause physical pain. My point was that it's not okay to do things to other people that they truly don't like and didn't ask for, just because you aren't hurting them-it's still mean and disrespectful and violating. Granny Smith and Washington perhaps, but still both apples.
"Though it is my opinion Bella, that men on this board will fall over themselves to rush to your side and agree with anything you say (because of the lack of female participation in relation to the large male numbers...), i think that you can do better than a comparison such as that. "
I take a bit of mild offense at this. Seems that whenever men stand up for people's rights they must be sucking up to 'get some'. I'm sorry if that's been your experience, it hasn't been mine-some of my favorite 'lers disagree with me on a regular basis (best way to start a ticklefight, if you ask me...) As for my comparison, I've already addressed it. I take it you would not approve of my orchestrating such an evening because you truly wouldn't like it. That was my point.
"And unless I am seriously misinformed, there is no non-con tickling going on. Really, stop and think. Or at least learn from what I'm about to say....
Some of you seem to think of non-con as some sort of snuff film, or at least equivalent in the diatribes I've read. Let me assure you, if it was going on by some crazy ass tickle torture club or participants, we'd know about it. the stories we read by some of the authors are just that: stories! It isn't happening in real life-at all or, believe me it would be available to purchase, it would be known to bondage and 'hardcore' players. Because as most of you dont' seem to know, tickling isn't even on the freakin' radar screen of people who know and make hardcore videos. Do you have ANY idea of what is really out there? To purchase? do you? Or is tickling the worst torture and deprived activity you can think of? If it is, great for you. I wish I didn't know what I know honestly.
So while you have these arguments and threads, what do you think is going on? That there are kidnappers and serial tickle clubs making off with young girls right now? Do you? Who exactly are you guys lecturing? Who are you passing judgment on? Who do you feel the need to correct?
I love the messages about the 'contract under duress'. Man, that would be a great episode of the practice wouldn't it? You've got to be joking.
There is a guy on here whose name I can't recall who said something to the effect of the fact that you won't see a law suit by a model in a noncon video because their really hasn't been one made.
I am inclined to agree."
I really don't know where much of this last part came from, Ticklevids. I have been reading here and on other forums for years, and I haven't ever read about suspected roaming gangs of ticklers, conspiracies, etc. I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying *I* haven't seen such posts. What I've read has been about whether it's cool to tickle people *in real life* uninvitedly, whether non-con vids are real, and whether it's wrong to make and/or buy them if they ARE real. This thread was supposed to be about the real life aspect, there are other threads for the video discussions.
I will say this, as I've said umpteen times in the past: I'm a New Yorker and a veteran of the BDSM world. I know all too well about what goes on in dungeons and basements all over the world, and what's out there on video and 8mm, from this country and from others (I learned to avoid the German wall of vids in the Time Square shops back in the 80's, so I wouldn't have bad dreams). There are certainly things far, far worse than tickling. But that doesn't automatically endorse tickling people against their will, in my opinion, and I never allow that to slide by as an excuse-"it could be worse" doesn't wash with me.
But this is all just my opinion, YMMV.
Bella
I would like to address Ticklevid's responses to my words, I am respectfully asking the mods to let it stay though it may seem outside the bounds of the original thread. Ticklevid's words are in quotations.
"So, if I buy a non-con video does that make me insensitive to the 'victims' feelings? If I tickle a lover who begs me to stop does that make me a rapist? Even though afterwards, after hot sex, she lets me do again, begging me to stop, does that make me equivalent to a criminal? Or at the least immoral? That seems to be the consesus of the vocal minority(yes, minority. I know for a fact most into this fetish prefer the harder side of it from my own research while I owned a company)"
Um, I'm not talking about nonconsensual videos at this time, not sure why it was brought up here. I'm asking about real people in real situations. Also, you describe a lover who says 'no no' but comes back for more. Heck, that's about half the 'lees on this forum (myself included) and certainly doesn't make you a rapist. A willing ticklee is all good, which is pretty much my point. And btw, I still have a small company, and my own research says otherwise. But you can't trust these surveys...
"I'm one of the few hear who will say unabashedly, YES, I like noncon without reservation. Yes, I do participate in it ( to a mild degree I suppose). No, I don't go kidnapping people. No, I don't force women into bondage. No, I dont' have a dungeon in my basement. Yes I love to read, see, and think about it."
Again, I'm not discussing this type of scenario. But I'm glad you're not a kidnapper. Personally, having my own dungeon in the basement is a goal of mine-beats driving across town everytime I wanna shoot a video. And for the record, I have no issue with fantasy non-con, and have in fact agreed to shoot such a video in the near future.
"Bella, you are obviously an intelligent woman. Articulate and well spoken. But in a previous thread you asked me if I would consider getting raped by 6 'large men' an enjoyable experience. And to that I reply, "you've got to be kidding". Talk about apples and oranges."
Thank you for the compliments, you're pretty darn sharp yourself!
But I disagree about the 'apples and oranges'. The thread to which you refer involved support for tickling people against their will, which several folks, including you (to my memory, forgive me if I'm wrong), seemed to support. I inquired as to whether it would be okay if you were held down against your will and *I*, not the strong guys holding you, did things to you that you clearly didn't like but didn't actually cause physical pain. My point was that it's not okay to do things to other people that they truly don't like and didn't ask for, just because you aren't hurting them-it's still mean and disrespectful and violating. Granny Smith and Washington perhaps, but still both apples.
"Though it is my opinion Bella, that men on this board will fall over themselves to rush to your side and agree with anything you say (because of the lack of female participation in relation to the large male numbers...), i think that you can do better than a comparison such as that. "
I take a bit of mild offense at this. Seems that whenever men stand up for people's rights they must be sucking up to 'get some'. I'm sorry if that's been your experience, it hasn't been mine-some of my favorite 'lers disagree with me on a regular basis (best way to start a ticklefight, if you ask me...) As for my comparison, I've already addressed it. I take it you would not approve of my orchestrating such an evening because you truly wouldn't like it. That was my point.
"And unless I am seriously misinformed, there is no non-con tickling going on. Really, stop and think. Or at least learn from what I'm about to say....
Some of you seem to think of non-con as some sort of snuff film, or at least equivalent in the diatribes I've read. Let me assure you, if it was going on by some crazy ass tickle torture club or participants, we'd know about it. the stories we read by some of the authors are just that: stories! It isn't happening in real life-at all or, believe me it would be available to purchase, it would be known to bondage and 'hardcore' players. Because as most of you dont' seem to know, tickling isn't even on the freakin' radar screen of people who know and make hardcore videos. Do you have ANY idea of what is really out there? To purchase? do you? Or is tickling the worst torture and deprived activity you can think of? If it is, great for you. I wish I didn't know what I know honestly.
So while you have these arguments and threads, what do you think is going on? That there are kidnappers and serial tickle clubs making off with young girls right now? Do you? Who exactly are you guys lecturing? Who are you passing judgment on? Who do you feel the need to correct?
I love the messages about the 'contract under duress'. Man, that would be a great episode of the practice wouldn't it? You've got to be joking.
There is a guy on here whose name I can't recall who said something to the effect of the fact that you won't see a law suit by a model in a noncon video because their really hasn't been one made.
I am inclined to agree."
I really don't know where much of this last part came from, Ticklevids. I have been reading here and on other forums for years, and I haven't ever read about suspected roaming gangs of ticklers, conspiracies, etc. I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying *I* haven't seen such posts. What I've read has been about whether it's cool to tickle people *in real life* uninvitedly, whether non-con vids are real, and whether it's wrong to make and/or buy them if they ARE real. This thread was supposed to be about the real life aspect, there are other threads for the video discussions.
I will say this, as I've said umpteen times in the past: I'm a New Yorker and a veteran of the BDSM world. I know all too well about what goes on in dungeons and basements all over the world, and what's out there on video and 8mm, from this country and from others (I learned to avoid the German wall of vids in the Time Square shops back in the 80's, so I wouldn't have bad dreams). There are certainly things far, far worse than tickling. But that doesn't automatically endorse tickling people against their will, in my opinion, and I never allow that to slide by as an excuse-"it could be worse" doesn't wash with me.
But this is all just my opinion, YMMV.
Bella
To take that next step....I'm much in line with Bella's thoughts. *surprise* Here's why.
I can't see myself going up to a total stranger and running my fingers through their hair, touching their face, licking their ear, or patting them on the tush. I can't see myself tickling them either. I might have a real urge, but I feel it shows a lack of respect and self control to fill my needs with abandon while disregarding the other person.
An example :The two basic tenets of kindergarten is "Show respect by keeping your parts to yourself and off of other people. *AND* Show respect by listening." We teach kids this because it's a matter of teaching self preservation. If you cannot deem another person's body off-limits to you, then you cannot demand that other people respect your body. This is to keep kids safe.
Carry that into adult hood. We're not talking about two people who are flirting with one another. IF you're in a social scene where someone is giving you attention that invites a touch, then wooo-haaa go for it. If you have to be "slick" and find a way in to grab a desperate tickle, then you're breaking the rules of respect. THAT being said, some people don't care whether they are respected or not and they are the ones who generally end up giving groups labels like "sicko" and "dangerous perverts."
Do what you want if you don't care about your role in society. Just remember that you might one day be on the receiving end of something unpleasant and then you're going to have to shut up and accept it.*GASP! Yes some people consider unwanted touching to be unpleasant, not necessarily evil, but unpleasant*
The other thing here is I think that many of us women picture the dregs of society when you say non-con. We picture some filthy street person with needles hanging out of their arms who are groping and won't let go. LOL Extreme yeah! But, alot of times things that make us uncomfortable seem to generate very disturbing scenarios.
Joby
I can't see myself going up to a total stranger and running my fingers through their hair, touching their face, licking their ear, or patting them on the tush. I can't see myself tickling them either. I might have a real urge, but I feel it shows a lack of respect and self control to fill my needs with abandon while disregarding the other person.
An example :The two basic tenets of kindergarten is "Show respect by keeping your parts to yourself and off of other people. *AND* Show respect by listening." We teach kids this because it's a matter of teaching self preservation. If you cannot deem another person's body off-limits to you, then you cannot demand that other people respect your body. This is to keep kids safe.
Carry that into adult hood. We're not talking about two people who are flirting with one another. IF you're in a social scene where someone is giving you attention that invites a touch, then wooo-haaa go for it. If you have to be "slick" and find a way in to grab a desperate tickle, then you're breaking the rules of respect. THAT being said, some people don't care whether they are respected or not and they are the ones who generally end up giving groups labels like "sicko" and "dangerous perverts."
Do what you want if you don't care about your role in society. Just remember that you might one day be on the receiving end of something unpleasant and then you're going to have to shut up and accept it.*GASP! Yes some people consider unwanted touching to be unpleasant, not necessarily evil, but unpleasant*
The other thing here is I think that many of us women picture the dregs of society when you say non-con. We picture some filthy street person with needles hanging out of their arms who are groping and won't let go. LOL Extreme yeah! But, alot of times things that make us uncomfortable seem to generate very disturbing scenarios.
Joby
BellaRisa
4th Level Blue Feather
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2001
- Messages
- 5,974
- Points
- 38
Second response
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Fellas, I really want to know: why are women supposed to allow others to touch us whether or not we want them to?
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"This question is flawed in it's delivery. Who said this? I didn't. As far as I've read, nobody I know said women are supposed to allow others to touch them. Why is this being asked? Isn't this about nonconsenual tickling? Who said about 'allow'. The point is that noncon tickling IS resisted. That's what makes it noncon. Women, or men for that matter aren't supposed to 'allow'."
With respect, I don't think my question was flawed. I've read many posts here and elsewhere from folks who genuinely don't understand why some of us take being tickled without our consent so seriously. I've discussed several scenarios such as being tickled by a stranger as a means of flirting, and stated that I think it's rude and that there are better ways to flirt. Others have disagreed and didn't grok why a woman would be annoyed by this, my question was aimed at them. Um, no one accused you of saying it....?
quote:
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What compells you, as adults, to seriously annoy women?
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"No idea of where this is coming from. Who said anything about annoying women? These questions are leading...."
Yes, they are leading-hopefully to a discussion. Again, I've read many posts wherein the poster wants opinions on whether to tickle someone who clearly hates it and would not welcome it. And posts seeking praise for slinking up on someone they don't know on the beach or someplace, tickling, and fleeing. Not friends but random strangers. That, to me, is about annoying women (or men)Similar to ringing old people's doorbells and running away. I asked why some still think it's cool past high school age. Is it the little boy/girl in you, is it the rush...? Inquiring 'lee minds wanna know.
quote:
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Also, why is it cool to touch strange women? The barefoot girl on the train, the hot chick on the beach...that you haven't met yet. Why is it that putting your hands on strange people is okay?
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"Who said it was? I don't think it is okay...."
That's cool. The question was for those who do.
quote:
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Finally: why do you think that the women here, who love to be tickled and otherwise caressed, are so against being touched against our wishes? Be honest.
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"simple... anyone does not want to have anything done against their wishes.This has nothing to do with gender. What I see in these threads is a leap of gigantic proportions, with words used such as rape. Again, I am saying this as a man, who while a noncon lover, would never resort to illegal tactics such as kidnapping or jeez... anything of the sort. And I again ask you to read my previous post to understand that I think that those who are into this fetish think that there is some sort of crazy ass tickling conspiracy going on. Man... take it easy. And I respectfully submit that some of the TMFer's need a new hobby.
In my opinion, the noncon lovers are numerous and probably the majority. But that doesn't matter. What is a bummer and really a slap in the face to those of us who do like it is when people are comparing our likes to criminality. "
I agree it has nothing to do with gender, I use females so often in examples because they are the ones at which most posts are aimed. The rest of your words are legit and timely but I've already addressed.
Thanks Ticklevids, I must say this has been stimulating thus far 🙂
Bella
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Fellas, I really want to know: why are women supposed to allow others to touch us whether or not we want them to?
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"This question is flawed in it's delivery. Who said this? I didn't. As far as I've read, nobody I know said women are supposed to allow others to touch them. Why is this being asked? Isn't this about nonconsenual tickling? Who said about 'allow'. The point is that noncon tickling IS resisted. That's what makes it noncon. Women, or men for that matter aren't supposed to 'allow'."
With respect, I don't think my question was flawed. I've read many posts here and elsewhere from folks who genuinely don't understand why some of us take being tickled without our consent so seriously. I've discussed several scenarios such as being tickled by a stranger as a means of flirting, and stated that I think it's rude and that there are better ways to flirt. Others have disagreed and didn't grok why a woman would be annoyed by this, my question was aimed at them. Um, no one accused you of saying it....?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What compells you, as adults, to seriously annoy women?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No idea of where this is coming from. Who said anything about annoying women? These questions are leading...."
Yes, they are leading-hopefully to a discussion. Again, I've read many posts wherein the poster wants opinions on whether to tickle someone who clearly hates it and would not welcome it. And posts seeking praise for slinking up on someone they don't know on the beach or someplace, tickling, and fleeing. Not friends but random strangers. That, to me, is about annoying women (or men)Similar to ringing old people's doorbells and running away. I asked why some still think it's cool past high school age. Is it the little boy/girl in you, is it the rush...? Inquiring 'lee minds wanna know.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, why is it cool to touch strange women? The barefoot girl on the train, the hot chick on the beach...that you haven't met yet. Why is it that putting your hands on strange people is okay?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Who said it was? I don't think it is okay...."
That's cool. The question was for those who do.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally: why do you think that the women here, who love to be tickled and otherwise caressed, are so against being touched against our wishes? Be honest.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"simple... anyone does not want to have anything done against their wishes.This has nothing to do with gender. What I see in these threads is a leap of gigantic proportions, with words used such as rape. Again, I am saying this as a man, who while a noncon lover, would never resort to illegal tactics such as kidnapping or jeez... anything of the sort. And I again ask you to read my previous post to understand that I think that those who are into this fetish think that there is some sort of crazy ass tickling conspiracy going on. Man... take it easy. And I respectfully submit that some of the TMFer's need a new hobby.
In my opinion, the noncon lovers are numerous and probably the majority. But that doesn't matter. What is a bummer and really a slap in the face to those of us who do like it is when people are comparing our likes to criminality. "
I agree it has nothing to do with gender, I use females so often in examples because they are the ones at which most posts are aimed. The rest of your words are legit and timely but I've already addressed.
Thanks Ticklevids, I must say this has been stimulating thus far 🙂
Bella
Assault & tickling
Basically, I'm in agreement with Primetime that the clear line is one of fantasy vs. reality. I have many nonconsentual fantasies that I would never act on with a stranger. Regarding Bella's original question, a woman should not allow herself to be touched against her wishes, especially once her boundries have been made clear. I don't know who used the term "rape" with respect to tickling. (Not accusing anyone here). My only contribution is that "assault" rather than rape would seem to be the appropriate legal term. btw, assault is serious. If one is assaulting people, apart from the legal implications, a treatment regimen is in order either self-imposed or with professional assistance.
Kalba
Basically, I'm in agreement with Primetime that the clear line is one of fantasy vs. reality. I have many nonconsentual fantasies that I would never act on with a stranger. Regarding Bella's original question, a woman should not allow herself to be touched against her wishes, especially once her boundries have been made clear. I don't know who used the term "rape" with respect to tickling. (Not accusing anyone here). My only contribution is that "assault" rather than rape would seem to be the appropriate legal term. btw, assault is serious. If one is assaulting people, apart from the legal implications, a treatment regimen is in order either self-imposed or with professional assistance.
Kalba
presumably if one is assaulting others...
If one is assaulting people, apart from the legal implications, a treatment regimen is in order either self-imposed or with professional assistance.
Presumably if one is assaulting others, the only treatment will come under legal duress with professional assistance. The occasional epiphany "gee I'm tickling a stranger and that's wrong" doesn't happen very often. It's usually when people are up on sexual harassment charges or lose their jobs that the reality sets in .
Rook
If one is assaulting people, apart from the legal implications, a treatment regimen is in order either self-imposed or with professional assistance.
Presumably if one is assaulting others, the only treatment will come under legal duress with professional assistance. The occasional epiphany "gee I'm tickling a stranger and that's wrong" doesn't happen very often. It's usually when people are up on sexual harassment charges or lose their jobs that the reality sets in .
Rook
