Violent fantasies

[LD_Tickler]

I've started a very similar discussion in the past, but I wanted to resurrect it.

I waltzed into the chat room last night, having just missed a fight, or so I was told. Apparently the fight revolved around somebody claiming that it was wrong to have tickling fantasies that included things like violence and rape, and that this person claimed anyone who fantasizes about these things is evil.

So apparently, I'm evil.

The least thread I started discussing this seemed pretty one-sided. Everyone agreed well enough that fantasizing about dark things is fairly common and totally fine, as long as you limit your real life practices to consensual playing.

I guess there are people out there who disagree, but no such opinions were voiced in my last thread. So I want to reopen the discussion, and hopefully get some dissenting views.

I'll go first: I see nothing wrong with fantasizing about anything you like, rape, serious non-con tickle torture, etc. There is no connection between having certain desires and having certain behaviour. Everyone has been so angry at a person in their life that they've wanted to hurt them. Yet, they restrain themselves, and do not become mindless, violent brawlers simply for having entertained the thought.

 

[mass1926]

Dreaming of kicking someone's ass is fine. Dreaming of raping somebody is definately not good because dreams are based upon connections formed within the subconscious mind. If someone is dreaming of raping someone it doesn't make them a rapist, but might mean that their sexual urges are getting powerful because they may have been a while without sex. Or, it could mean their totally fucked up in the head, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt and go with option 1.....lol

 

[LD_Tickler]

Dreaming of kicking someone's ass is fine. Dreaming of raping somebody is definately not good because dreams are based upon connections formed within the subconscious mind. If someone is dreaming of raping someone it doesn't make them a rapist, but might mean that their sexual urges are getting powerful because they may have been a while without sex. Or, it could mean their totally fucked up in the head, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt and go with option 1.....lol

Thanks for the dissenting opinion! 😀

I'm not really talking about dreams, I'm talking about fantasies. I'm a sadist. I get off on all that "definitely not good" stuff.

So why is my fantasizing any worse than fantasizing about kicking somebody's ass? Both are based on desire. I claim that neither dictates how that person will act.

 

[Libertine]

Catholic theology says the thought is equal to the action. Martin Luthor, on the other hand, said that there is a difference between letting birds fly overhead, and allowing them to nest on your roof.

The Bible also distinguishes betwen 'unrighteousness' and 'wickedness' in Isaiah:

Isaiah 55:7 (King James Version)

7) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God....

The rabbinical interpretation is that the 'unrighteous' have the thought while the 'wicked' actually do the deed.

Fantasize away, and IRL just compromise with consensual non-con.

 

[mass1926]

Catholic theology says the thought is equal to the action. Martin Luthor, on the other hand, said that there is a difference between letting birds fly overhead, and allowing them to nest on your roof.

The Bible also distinguishes betwen 'unrighteousness' and 'wickedness' in Isaiah:

Isaiah 55:7 (King James Version)

7) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God....

The rabbinical interpretation is that the 'unrighteous' have the thought while the 'wicked' actually do the deed.

Fantasize away, and IRL just compromise with consensual non-con.

Isn't that the quote Samuel L Jackson uses in Pulp Fiction right before he wasted a guy....LOL

 

[Coda]

Of course there's nothing wrong with solely thinking or fantasizing about anything. If you think there's something strange or negative about it, you can try to learn why you like to think or fantasize that way. If you're happy with the mystery, you can merely enjoy it.

 

[TropicThunder]

While I can't say I've had fantasies pertaining to violence or rape, but I do indulge in more non-consentual fantasies involving me and people I know. But they are just that. Fantasies.

I can barely kill an insect, let alone tie up and tickle-rape someone.

 

[MrTicklefeet]

I see no problem with it, unless it becomes an obsession. My brother kind of over did it, (with help from cocaine and alcohol addictions as well), and started watching violent movies on a regular basis. Then I heard he was renting abuse towards women videos when he had a woman staying at his apartment for a while. The thing, similar to the bible quote above, there is a buddhist thought along the same lines, what the mind focuses on, is were it rests. Or something to that effect. Unfortunately, with mens brains, viewing too much violence, one gets desensitized to it, to the degree they lose empathy.
So my brother would start being mean to people, and acting all confused when he'd get a negative reaction, like it just came out of the blue. His relations with women suffered too, and he always assumed it was the women's fault. I try to regulate what goes on in my brain.
I've kind of done it to myself with tickling fantasies, now to the degree, I can't have sexual relations with someone without having to fantasize of them being tickled silly before I can come to orgasm. That'll teach me.
Better that then face slapping videos my brothers been known to watch I guess.

 

[BlackestLily]

I think if you go onto places like fetlife, you're going to find people who, too, are into the very things you describe. I can honestly say I don't find your fantasies wrong at all, simply preference. I think you just need to find someone to play with who has similar wants and desires.

I have noticed often-times on the forum that people are very afraid to open up about tickling, but defending it saying it's their preference and should be respected even by people who don't share it. Then usually on the flip side others are jumped on because their likes differ from the VERY specific one here: tickling. So I guess it's just gotta be water off a ducks back. If someone can't relate to you, no huge bugger I guess since you wouldn't end up playing with them anyway, but it can be a downer.

 

[PomPom]

I'm also a sadist, too, LD_Tickler. That's why I was a little confused by the argument. I am known at a very nice person (atleast I like to think so) and now I'm suddenly "evil" because I enjoy other peoples pain?
I get out my fantasies through writing and reading other stories with those fantasies in it. Its a healthy way to release it so if, God forbid, I ever felt the urge to have a non-consensual relationship I could just turn to the writings.
Of course I would NEVER hurt/have a rape scenario without the other persons consent. That is the difference between me and someone who doesn't have their sanity. Someone who has taken their sadism/rape fantasies into the real world may not have the proper outlets to keep it in check.
I've talked to my counselor about this before. She knows how I feel, and she says that IT IS NORMAL TO FEEL. PEOPLE HAVE DARK FANTASIES ALL THE TIME, ITS JUST A MATTER OF KEEPING THEM TO YOURSELF. AS LONG AS YOU DONT ACT ON THEM YOU ARE NOT "EVIL" OR "A BAD PERSON".

 

[rhiannon]

Fantasies are fine! As long as you can keep fantasies from reality and right from wrong, there is no problem at all! If every mean thought made a person evil, I guess we all are very evil. 🙂

 

[LD_Tickler]

See, this is basically the direction that the last thread took. I'm glad so many people agree, but based on what I was hearing last night, there are plenty who don't. Also just to be clear, I'm not conflicted or confused by my feelings, this discussion is purely out of interest.

So again, if anyone does believe that having violent/rape/sadistic fantasies is wrong, please share your opinions.

 

[Carsomyr]

Ok, LD I'm actually in complete agreement with you and see nothing wrong with fantasies like that (I have some darker ones myself), but since your purpose for making the thread in the first place was to get some dissenting views I guess I'll try to play the devil's advocate. 🙂

I think it's about values, and what you consider to be "wrong" or "inherently evil", let me show you what I mean:

Since tickling can be pretty nonconsensual at times, I'm not surprised that a big part of the community here will go "it's ok" about fantasies on a similar theme.

I'm sure if someone said they fantazised about having sex with animals, a much bigger crowd would at least be weirded out.

If someone said "I have fantasies about children", then basically everyone here would go "you sick fuck!" or "get help!"

It's all about where you draw the line. Honestly, some people DO need to seek help for their fantasies, and I can only be sorry that they're wired that way since it's nothing they can help, but to get to my point I think the people who cry "moral outrage" over rape-play probably just bundle it up in the same category as pedophilia and whatnot. Actual rape is, after all, really fucking bad (duh!), and maybe they're too "vanilla" to see the BDSM aspect of it, or maybe they're confused enough about being ticklephiles that they feel good from ripping on someone more "hardcore". Or hell, maybe they just act like they're outraged because they think people will be impressed by it.

Either way, they fail to see the difference between a healthy darker fantasy and a bad one, and to be perfectly fair it's not always easy to make that distinction, except for in some obvious cases of course.

 

[LD_Tickler]

Or hell, maybe they just act like they're outraged because they think people will be impressed by it.

I hadn't considered it, but I think you may have hit a big part of it. Would certainly make sense. Hmm..

 

[deadlywiffeathr]

In my experience, my fantasies are something I would like to act upon one day. When someone's having violent fantasies about raping people I can certainly see why others in the chat room think its wrong...and a little sick. It's a fine, fine line and I see where you're coming from 100%, but when you're fantasizing about something so predominatley frowned upon in society there will surely be stigma attatched to it when you announce it out loud.

I'm having trouble expressing exactly how I feel about this atm. I just dont get how thinking about this sort of stuff can be seen as healthy. Whether they act upon their inner feelings or not, it still doesn't sit right.

 

[LD_Tickler]

In my experience, my fantasies are something I would like to act upon one day. When someone's having violent fantasies about raping people I can certainly see why others in the chat room think its wrong...and a little sick. It's a fine, fine line and I see where you're coming from 100%, but when you're fantasizing about something so predominatley frowned upon in society there will surely be stigma attatched to it when you announce it out loud.

I'm having trouble expressing exactly how I feel about this atm. I just dont get how thinking about this sort of stuff can be seen as healthy. Whether they act upon their inner feelings or not, it still doesn't sit right.

I don't see how it can be seen as unhealthy. Tonnes of people fantasize about it. Overtones of violence and aggression are common in sexual imagery, dating back centuries. In what way do you suppose violent fantasies are unhealthy?

I'm obviously not surprised that some people aren't comfortable with the fact that people fantasize about violence, but I do think it's quite unjustifiable to claim that it's morally wrong to fantasize about anything - especially given that we don't really get to choose what turns us on.

As for the idea of fantasies being something that people want to act on... well, yes, but think about it, we are capable of restraining our impulses in the interest of doing the smarter thing, the moral thing, etc... It would be great to punch everyone who bothers me, but I restrain myself. It would be great to rob a bank and live like a king, but I restrain myself. Why is it suddenly dangerous to entertain certain thoughts, but not others?

 

[Carsomyr]

I hadn't considered it, but I think you may have hit a big part of it. Would certainly make sense. Hmm..

Hah! Well I'm sure at least some people are like that, but not everyone. 🙂

I'm having trouble expressing exactly how I feel about this atm. I just dont get how thinking about this sort of stuff can be seen as healthy. Whether they act upon their inner feelings or not, it still doesn't sit right.

Well the way I see it, is that it gives you an outlet for those urges. I know some things I've fantasized about are things I wouldn't even WANT to try IRL. I think fantasies are a way of dealing with your curiosity as well, or at least it has been for me. "What would it be like if..." You get the idea. 😉

 

[skelyrata]

I believe that rape is the mother of all fantasies, enfasis on the word fantasy. Weather you are aware of it or not, all bondage related games have a rape, or violent, subtheme in their shadows. Spanking, whipping, slashing, while the "victim" is bound and helpless. And our own fetish, tickling, which is underestimated by the BDSM community, is in fact a very cruel and agonic form of torture, and the feeling it produces on the ticklee, comes very close to rape. Of course, in a fantasy we have consent, and rules are set before the start, because it is all a game played by consenting adults, a game in which both of them give in to their animal instincts.

To have a girl, all naked, tied to my bed, spread and helpless, and use my fingers to make her nerves crunch and her muscles to react and tremble totally out of her control, and see her laughing and fighting to catch her breath, pulling her arms and legs, unable to defend herself. And you see her desperate, in agony, suffering the worst torture of her life, but at the same time you see her excited, her heart is pumping, her body is aroused, and you move the game to the next level. And at the end of the session, when you see her facial expression of satisfaction, you know thats a fantasy come true.

The important thing is that both are willing participants. The rest is up to your imagination.

 

[TropicThunder]

I agree with you Skely, and I think it stems from man's basic need to dominate.

 

[rhiannon]

Well the way I see it, is that it gives you an outlet for those urges. I know some things I've fantasized about are things I wouldn't even WANT to try IRL

This, totally agree! Fantasies do not mean you would actually really want to do it! There are tons of women having rape fantasies, but I bet you, if some stranger actually did rape them in a dark street, they would NOT be happy about it!

 

[Libertine]

Yes, for instance if she's fantasizing about being gang-banged by pirates, they're not a bunch of horrible smelly little Somalians, they're a crew of handsome muscular fellows with perfect teeth who have only taken up piracy to put themselves through medical school.

And theirs is the only pirate ship in the 1600s Caribbean which boasts a nice tiled bathroom with sunken tub and shower for afterwards.

 

[rhiannon]

You understand us women so well, Libertine! 😀

 

[milagros317]

The important thing is that both are willing participants. The rest is up to your imagination.

That's it exactly. Act on your fantasies with willing adult participants.

 

[obama666]

I have no problem with any fantasy turned real as long as it's between two consenting adults and apparently neither does society. Many people can't handle someone else's fantasy because it is not part of their particular mind set. If I were in the chat room with you, I would have vigorously defended you against the politically correct hordes. It's not a crime if it's not acted on. AND I have never believed the Christian premise if you think it, it's a sin (and I am a regular reader and somewhat partial believer of the bible). FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

 

[deadlywiffeathr]

I don't see how it can be seen as unhealthy. Tonnes of people fantasize about it. Overtones of violence and aggression are common in sexual imagery, dating back centuries. In what way do you suppose violent fantasies are unhealthy?

I'm obviously not surprised that some people aren't comfortable with the fact that people fantasize about violence, but I do think it's quite unjustifiable to claim that it's morally wrong to fantasize about anything - especially given that we don't really get to choose what turns us on.

As for the idea of fantasies being something that people want to act on... well, yes, but think about it, we are capable of restraining our impulses in the interest of doing the smarter thing, the moral thing, etc... It would be great to punch everyone who bothers me, but I restrain myself. It would be great to rob a bank and live like a king, but I restrain myself. Why is it suddenly dangerous to entertain certain thoughts, but not others?

I didn't mean to insinuate that people who have these kinds of fantasies are unhealthy, I was merely trying to express that I believe the fantasies themselves are unhealthy for a person to have on a constant basis.

The way I see it, if you're continuously painting these fantasies in a positive light in your own mind, one may become desensitised to how violent and morally wrong they are to other people. A further concern would then be that they feel it is ok to act upon these urges.

I agree with you 100% about not being able to choose what turns you on and I understand that it is the case for most people. What I don't understand is how someone can stand there and say they actually enjoy imagining raping a woman without her consent in a violent manner.

Isn't the fact that you have described these fantasies and thoughts as "dark" a pretty big indicator that they are seen as unfavourable in most people's eyes?

Well the way I see it, is that it gives you an outlet for those urges. I know some things I've fantasized about are things I wouldn't even WANT to try IRL. I think fantasies are a way of dealing with your curiosity as well, or at least it has been for me. "What would it be like if..." You get the idea. 😉

I see where you're coming from here Carso, I really do. I've had similar experiences, I wouldn't call them fantasies, but I've certainly had unsavoury thoughts about things I'd rather not be thinking about in that way.

I guess I'm trying to say that I see a difference between fantasizing and having thoughts about something/someone. Fantasizing, for me, holds positive connotations. I fantasize about tickling someone because I would enjoy it IRL and it makes me happy to do so.

Thoughts typically hold negative connotations for me. If a thought crosses my mind that is unsavoury it gets nipped in the bud right there. I don't continue to dwell upon it and allow it to develop into fantasy, something that would occupy my mind for much longer.

Make of that what you will I tried hard to explain it the way it was sounding in my head 😛