What About A Man's Choice?

[OBleedingMe]

I identify with your plight, Kis. I really do. And if the abortion laws were abolished, I'd be right up there with you. But for now they are here, and as it stands, one gender has no choice while another does. Either both genders are held responsibile for their actions or neither are. You can't have one held responsibile and not the other.

 

[ticklishbbw]

She doesn't have to have sex. But she can, BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANY CONSEQUENCES. So what if she gets pregnant? She can have it aborted before it has any affects on her body.

Wow...you think having an abortion is that easy?? That's very naive. It's not so simple. You make it all sound so "matter of fact." None of those options that you listed are easy. All have long term effects.

If you want the child so badly, then you pay for it. It's YOUR body... and it's MY money.

Actually, many women would choose that option, if they truly wanted to be a parent. Not all women are out for "YOUR money." However, if you chose to have sex, you chose to be responsible for the outcome--no matter what your options.


I'll say it again, sex has consequences. If you don't like them, don't have sex. Sex is not a necessary to live (despite what our hormones may tell us). Beyond that, life isn't always fair. It's not fair that ultimately the birth control is the woman's responsibility, it's not fair that only women can have children...it's life!

tbbw

 

[OBleedingMe]

Why would abortion have a "long term affect" on you? Why should it be so hard to do? It's only a lump of flesh, right?
Again, I will reiterate what I said in my previous posts. You have an OUT to your responsibilities, a man doesn't. He is at the mercy of your whims.
You just keep saying "sex has consequences" over and over. That's not my argument. My argument is that women can ESCAPE those consequences while a man CAN NOT. If a woman walked into an abortion clinic and said... I had sex and now I want to get rid of the baby, do you think they would tell her: "Oh, well, maybe you should have THOUGHT of that before you had sex. May be you should have thought of the consequences. Too bad. No abortion for you." I think not. She can do what she likes.
Now, if a man is in court and says: "I never wanted this child. She lied to me about her contraceptive usage, and my condom failed." Do you think that would hold up? No way! The judge would force him to pay!
Again, I will reiterate that a woman has the chocie to have sex WITHOUT life-long consequences, but a MAN does not.
Yes, that's right. Life ISN'T fair - we're here to try and MAKE it fair.

 

[kis123]

To ticklishbbw:


So does a woman. She doesn't have to have sex. But she can, BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANY CONSEQUENCES. So what if she gets pregnant? She can have it aborted before it has any affects on her body. What choice does a man have if she decides to have the child? Go to jail? He has no choice. He MUST assume his responsibilities of a father. A woman, on the other hand, has a CHOICE as to whether she wants to accept motherhood. You, as a woman, DO NOT have a right to force me, a man, into fatherhood. If you want the child so badly, then you pay for it. It's YOUR body... and it's MY money.
A woman can have sex without consequences. A man should enjoy the same right that a women has since Roe VS Wade. End of story.

Excuse me, but did someone put a gun to your head and force you to screw that woman? Or did you do it voluntarily? Then accept your responsibilities and do the right thing, or mark sex off your "to do" list!

Are you going through this situation in your life or is someone you know going through this? I can understand your anger and frustration, but the reality is this; you chose to have sex. You accept the consequences whether you like them or not. If she decides to have the baby you don't want but did not make sure didn't get here, you have to accept the consequences. You can chose to keep running like many men have. But know this; there is a child somewhere you put on the earth you did not do the right thing by. This child is probably hating your guts or contemplating your death because you did not think enough of him or her to stick around. Your absence is molding and shaping that child as much as your presence would, except in the negative. And you have to live with that.

It's funny; men don't mind spending money on women when they're having a good time in the relationship. As soon as things stop going their way, they want to close their wallets. They want to say that the woman is only after their money for child support. You'll pay for a hotel room with dinner and liquor, but won't buy diapers, clothes, or milk for the child you produced during your good time.

You act like all women are just dying to have a man's baby. Believe me we're not. I wish a man could really know what goes into pregnancy, labor and delivery, and post-partum in a woman. Then they wouldn't be so quick to think that a woman is always excited about pregnancy. That decision comes with thought, contemplation, and sacrifice. That's what choices are all about; growing up and being a responsible adult. There's no getting around this at all. Once the life has been conceived, tough choices must be made. All those choices come with consequences. Either accept that or join a monastery and let sex go.

 

[ticklishbbw]

Why would abortion have a "long term affect" on you? Why should it be so hard to do? My argument is that women can ESCAPE those consequences while a man CAN NOT. If a woman walked into an abortion clinic and said... I had sex and now I want to get rid of the baby, do you think they would tell her: "Oh, well, maybe you should have THOUGHT of that before you had sex. May be you should have thought of the consequences. Too bad. No abortion for you." I think not. She can do what she likes.

I'd suggest you talk to someone who has had an abortion. They will tell you that is not without after effects. Both physical, and psychological. I'd also suggest you talk to a womens clinic and ask them what happens when a woman comes in for an abortion, or even for a pregnancy test. They get counseling, on not only abortion, but on birth control, safe sex etc. NO, they are not denied the procedure, but you just don't walk into a clinic and just "get" an abortion. At least not at a reputable doctors office.

There is no escaping from the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy for a woman. An abortion, as I said above can have physical and psychological impact. Adoption has psycological impact. Raising the child alone, or with a partner, has all of the above, including financial for for one or both people.

Sex, and unplanned pregnancies have consequences for both people involved.

 

[kis123]

Why would abortion have a "long term affect" on you? Why should it be so hard to do? It's only a lump of flesh, right?

That lump of flesh you're demeaning has a heart beat within 10 days of conception.

Do you know what the physical process of abortion entails? Either having the life sucked out of HER body, or forcing an early labor and the child being spat out of HER body into a bucket. Doesn't sound like much fun in my book. I wish you could have the experiences that the woman who chose abortion have. Maybe you wouldn't be so flippant or disrespectful of the process.

Most of these women regret ever having abortions for the rest of their lives. You act like this is an easy decision. It is a life or death decision regardless what the media depicts. Something to think about before anyone unmarried has sex. The password for today is CONSEQUENCES!

 

[OBleedingMe]

That's just the point, kis123. Many women AREN'T dying to have a baby. And they have a choice. They can abort it, they can put it up for adoption, etc.
But in a case where a woman WANTS the child and the man does NOT, does a man have a choice? NO. Do you think most MEN want to be an indentured servant for the next 18 years of their lives? No way. But we don't have a choice. We MUST accept the responsibility. You, as a woman, does NOT have to accept that responsibility. YOU HAVE A CHOICE. A MAN DOES NOT.
A woman can have sex and choose NOT accept its consequences. A man, on the other, does NOT have that right. C'mon, refute that. You can't. It's a fact.
You say a man loses his rights when he gets in bed with a woman. Can you explain to me why a MAN loses all his rights, while a WOMAN retains all of hers? You are promoting a double standard as well as a sexist and bigoted point of view, madam.
A man should not be forced to pay for a woman's CHOICE. If YOU don't like, then maybe you should check sex off YOUR "to do" list and join a convent.
Just keep spouting your "sex has consequences" mantra while I present cold hard facts to you.

 

[OBleedingMe]

Why do I get the feeling your strignently Pro-Life, kis? This thread has NOTHING to do with pro-life and all to do with pro-choice, kis. Choice for women, and CHOICE FOR MEN.
I don't think you could ever compare how having an unplanned baby ruins the life of a man to how an abortion affects a woman.

 

[kis123]

Oh, and another thing.......

There is a child to consider! I was just starting college when I got pregnant with my first child. Do you think I was just dying to become a mother? Do you think I just wanted to have fun and not be responsible for anyone other than myself? I was barely out of high school and wanted to see the world.

But here I was with this kid to take care of. On top of that, he was mentally handicapped. Do you think I wanted this for myself? No, I certainly didn't. Do you know how many people told me I should get an abortion? Many of these people I used to go to church with. What the heck was that? Irresponsibility!

So I had sex and the rabbit died. I got pregnant, so what! I had a baby that I DIDN'T WANT EITHER! Do you think women automatically become maternal just because they're pregnant. As Dr. Phil would say, "GET REAL"! Once again, so what! As time went by, I grew up and realized that I had to be responsible and accountable for my actions and the results of them. And the bureau of child support has yet to help me with this either. I've never gotten a dime of support from his father. And the court made him sign his rights away because he was a drug addict and dealer and an irresponsible excuse for a human being. I wouldn't have gotten anything from him anyway. Do you know how many women NEVER receive child support for their kids? Many, myself included.

It's not the issue of whether you wanted a kid or not. The fact of the matter is there is a kid running around here because of you and his/her mother, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if you wanted it or not. I don't want to pay taxes, but I do because I have to. I did a lot of things as a mom not because I wanted to but becuase I had to. Once again for the record, it's called being responsible for one's actions, whether they wanted them to occur or not.

OBM, there's simply no getting around it. You can argue the point until you're blue, and the facts remain the same. Either stop having sex or buckle your seat belt, because it can happen to you or anyone else who is sexually active.

 

[MrMacphisto]

they like to call liberals bleeding hearts....

...but OBleedingMe is obviously bleeding from his anus on this one... As I've said in another thread, the self-righteous types are always the loudest. Take a chill pill OBleedingMe and level with me on this one...

You do realize that the severity of child support laws vary from state to state. Perhaps, NJ is pretty tough on them, but NC is often pretty lax about enforcing them. Here's another thing: Is it a woman's choice to get raped? Have you thought about this part of the issue? Not every pregnancy is consensual, and the women who choose to have the child of a rapist are definitely very noble. Rapists have to serve jail time, but they should also have to provide for whatever they've forced upon a woman. So, maybe our position on child support laws regarding a consensual act differ, but I'd hope you aren't suggesting a change in policies relating to rape.

Kis123, I have another thing to mention for you... RU-485 is far safer than an abortion. First of all, the biological effects of this pill are far less detrimental to a woman than an abortion can be. Second of all, you don't have to worry about getting blown up by some extremist asshole when you take it. I realize you're Pro-Life, but think about this for a moment... If women will continue to get abortions if they are legal or will use the old coathanger method if it isn't, isn't using a pill a better idea, since it's safer and since you can only effectively use it early in the pregnancy? I mean, a fertilized egg is barely more than a multi-cellular organism, whereas a 3 month old fetus more resembles a life doesn't it?

Here's another thing... If you make abortion illegal, rich women will still be able to get them outside of the country. In effect, the Pro-Life agenda is very classist. Banning abortion really only affects the poor and the lower income levels of the middle class.

The reason why the abstinence only idea is backwards is that once the agenda reaches schools, sex education goes out the window. If you don't tell kids about contraceptives, you'll see a lot more teen pregnancies. This kind of logic is about as keen as running a DARE program without telling kids the effects of drugs and just telling them "They're bad, don't do them."

As a final note, if you follow the school of thought that life (in a legal sense) starts when a sperm meets an egg, then why not take it further? The "every sperm is sacred" idea is only a slightly older version of the anti-abortion idea. I think you'll find that this touchiness over fertilized eggs has disappeared from most 1st World nations. It isn't a big deal in Canada and the UK, so why is it here? It reminds me of how we react so strangely to the pot issue.

 

[ticklishbbw]

A woman can have sex and choose NOT accept its consequences. A man, on the other, does NOT have that right. C'mon, refute that.

I'll refute that. How can you say having an abortion, giving up a child for adoption, or raising a child as a single parent (whether there's financial suppport or not), is not dealing with the consequences? As I said in my other post, you need to speak to someone who had an abortion, someone who gave a child up for adoption, and someone who is raising a child alone, and ask them if they dealt with consequences.

tbbw

 

[kis123]

Re: they like to call liberals bleeding hearts....

[B
Kis123, I have another thing to mention for you... RU-485 is far safer than an abortion. First of all, the biological effects of this pill are far less detrimental to a woman than an abortion can be. Second of all, you don't have to worry about getting blown up by some extremist asshole when you take it. I realize you're Pro-Life, but think about this for a moment... If women will continue to get abortions if they are legal or will use the old coathanger method if it isn't, isn't using a pill a better idea, since it's safer and since you can only effectively use it early in the pregnancy? I mean, a fertilized egg is barely more than a multi-cellular organism, whereas a 3 month old fetus more resembles a life doesn't it?

Here's another thing... If you make abortion illegal, rich women will still be able to get them outside of the country. In effect, the Pro-Life agenda is very classist. Banning abortion really only affects the poor and the lower income levels of the middle class.

The reason why the abstinence only idea is backwards is that once the agenda reaches schools, sex education goes out the window. If you don't tell kids about contraceptives, you'll see a lot more teen pregnancies. This kind of logic is about as keen as running a DARE program without telling kids the effects of drugs and just telling them "They're bad, don't do them."

As a final note, if you follow the school of thought that life (in a legal sense) starts when a sperm meets an egg, then why not take it further? The "every sperm is sacred" idea is only a slightly older version of the anti-abortion idea. I think you'll find that this touchiness over fertilized eggs has disappeared from most 1st World nations. It isn't a big deal in Canada and the UK, so why is it here? It reminds me of how we react so strangely to the pot issue. [/B]

I understand some of your viewpoints, even though I don't agree with them. Just because society accepts that life doesn't start at conception, doesn't make it any less true.

I don't believe that any form of abortion is safe. There are many instances of botched abortions, and the women invovled are never emotionally the same again after the procedure.

I'm familiar with the coathanger abortions of the past. I don't agree with those either. I'm also familiar with just saying "no". Do we always have to gratify ourselves every time we want something? Then be ready for the consequences when you do.

 

[kis123]

That's just the point, kis123. Many women AREN'T dying to have a baby. And they have a choice. They can abort it, they can put it up for adoption, etc.
But in a case where a woman WANTS the child and the man does NOT, does a man have a choice? NO. Do you think most MEN want to be an indentured servant for the next 18 years of their lives? No way. But we don't have a choice. We MUST accept the responsibility. You, as a woman, does NOT have to accept that responsibility. YOU HAVE A CHOICE. A MAN DOES NOT.
A woman can have sex and choose NOT accept its consequences. A man, on the other, does NOT have that right. C'mon, refute that. You can't. It's a fact.
You say a man loses his rights when he gets in bed with a woman. Can you explain to me why a MAN loses all his rights, while a WOMAN retains all of hers? You are promoting a double standard as well as a sexist and bigoted point of view, madam.
A man should not be forced to pay for a woman's CHOICE. If YOU don't like, then maybe you should check sex off YOUR "to do" list and join a convent.
Just keep spouting your "sex has consequences" mantra while I present cold hard facts to you.

OBM,

First of all, I'll be leaving for awhile to attend class, so I won't be responding to you for a few hours.

Second, your spouting cold and hard, but facts are not what your shouting. You're bitter and unrealistic about this topic and maybe life in general. And judging by other's posts, you're also losing the argument. You see, while you're talking, I've lived this thing and you can never put talk over experience.

I've put my libido in check for spiritual and practical reasons. I've lived long enough to know what I do and not want to deal with. I don't want to deal with an unplanned pregnancy at my age with teenage and adult children. I don't want to deal with knuckleheads that want the bed but not the responsibility that comes with it. I respect myself too much to ever put myself through that kind of drama again. So maybe I'm putting myself through a convent of sorts.

Like I've said in previous posts, a man can be forced to pay child support and still not pay one dime. It happened to me and thousands of other women whose children are grown and never got one dime. As I said before, a man will open his wallet as long as things are good and he's having fun. As soon as things go south so does he and his wallet.

Come back to me after you've really lived this thing. After you've raised children wondering where the next meal is coming from because someone who claimed they loved you in the bedroom ran out on his responsibilities. Be there when the kid asks where is my dad? Why didn't he love me enough to raise me? Be there in the welfare office begging for crumbs because you're out of work while that man is doing what feels good to him with someone else and is being responsible to her and her kids. Come to me when you're really ready to talk. Your screaming only gives me a headache and serves little to no purpose at all!

It's easy to scream and shout and claim it's factual. It takes a real man and a real woman to take responsibility for a real life conceived through their actions and raise that child. Oh, I did not say a man loses his rights when he gets in the bed. Everyone loses their rights when they go into that bedroom. Everyone deals with the CONSEQUENCES, not just the man or the woman.

If you think parenthood equals indentured servitude, do the world a favor and get a vasectomy. That way you don't have to worry about it anymore, do you??!!!

 

[Oddjob0226]

Bizzarre, I was just thinking about this at work today. Now WHY would I be thinking about this? I must have psychotic powers!

Yeah, how come a chick & dude want to get it on, for pleasure and closeness not for reproduction, and someone - ususally the woman - gets pregnant. She can keep it, even if they guy doesn't want it and he has to abide by that forever (unless he goes to court to have parental rights terminated?). However, if the woman wants to have an abortion, she can keep her pregnancy secret from the guy and get it done, even though the guy's choice might be to willingly become a father? What's with that? Botched abortions? They botch appendectomies. And with 6 billion people on this planet it's not like we're an endangered species.

 

[kis123]

Yeah, how come a chick & dude want to get it on, for pleasure and closeness not for reproduction, and someone - ususally the woman - gets pregnant. She can keep it, even if they guy doesn't want it and he has to abide by that forever (unless he goes to court to have parental rights terminated?). However, if the woman wants to have an abortion, she can keep her pregnancy secret from the guy and get it done, even though the guy's choice might be to willingly become a father? What's with that? Botched abortions? They botch appendectomies. And with 6 billion people on this planet it's not like we're an endangered species.

First of all, it's not USUALLY the woman who gets pregnant. She is the ONLY one who gets pregnant.

I've been trying to say this over several posts and I will reiterate until someone gets an understanding:

EVERYONE LOSES THEIR RIGHTS IN THE BEDROOM! Once your bedroom antics create a life, the rights go out the window. That is if you're going to be responsible for the life you've conceived. If not, then continue to bellyache about how the woman has the rights. I don't understand, is having a child from your sex activity so horrible? If so, the potential is always there for it to happen. If you want to continue having sex, then you're saying "yes" to all of the consequences your decision making produces.

Where were my rights when I conceived 19 & 14 years ago? Neither of these clowns pay child support and the bureau of support aren't breaking their necks to get me any help. Where are the rights of my children to be raised by two parents instead of one? Yeah, my ex is around, but that's all he is. I can't depend upon him to provide a loaf of bread on a consistent basis. After all of this, I would have regretted aborting my children as opposed to having them because I love them and even when I didn't want to birth my son, I loved him almost from day one of conception. He lived inside of me EXCLUSIVELY for nine months with only me to depend upon to keep him healthy and safe. There is a bond between a woman and fetus/child that a man simply can't understand. This bond gives women the edge, whether you like it or not. Men do not understand this because they are on the outside looking in. It simply cannot be understood by anyone who hasn't gone through the experience.

As for the women who chose abortion, I lack understanding and a viewpoint because I've never had an abortion. As said in previous posts, women get pre-abortion counseling and other services. She's the one carrying the life inside of her. If men could do the same, I just wonder what these posts would be about.

 

[MrMacphisto]

EVERYONE LOSES THEIR RIGHTS IN THE BEDROOM! Once your bedroom antics create a life, the rights go out the window.

umm... I am so glad I don't live that way... I know from your previous posts why your situation encourages you to see things this way, but as far as rights are concerned, it's all about the freedom of choice in this country....

The more I think about this issue in terms of pro-choice and pro-life, the more I begin to lean toward bleeding-man's view. I still think the woman should have more say than a man when it comes to determining the fate of a fetus, since women have to carry it. However, I had a conversation with my brother on this issue, and he made some good points in support of free-bleeder's stance. It is kind of a double standard for the woman to have a total say as to whether the guy has to pay up or not. My brother came up with an interesting compromise: why not just set it up so the guy has to decide (when the girl gets pregnant) whether or not he wants visitation rights for the child? If he does, then he has to pay up; if he doesn't, then he's scot-free, but he can get arrested for "visiting" when he's not supposed to.

The premise behind this proposal is that the father should never get the satisfaction of associating with his son or daughter, if he doesn't pay up. If the father refuses to pay up in the beginning, then he should never be able to get visitation rights later without the mother's consent. Obviously, when the son or daughter becomes a legal adult, this limitation wouldn't apply, but that's another issue altogether....

 

[Oddjob0226]

This isn't even about abortion. Make abortion 100% illegal in all cases. I'm still not paying if woman "A" decides she wants to be a momma, feel like a complete woman, etc. AFTER she finds out she's pregnant and whe we BOTH had sex for reasons other than reproduction (i.e. I didn't rape her and run). Unless I choose to.

 

[tyf69]

My dad gave me words of wisdom when I about 15. "Never go to bed with a woman you wouldn't consider marrying" I've always kept these words close by. I always thought my dad was pretty savvy.

 

[JoBelle]

Few random comments. Do not flame me.

My best friend and her boyfriend had consentual sex many times. She got pregnant. She told him. He said, "I already have two kids from my first marriage. I don't want another one." Then he left. The same day. Literally. She has an internal debate. Abortion? No. Even though she wasn't ready to have a child, she felt abortion was wrong. When pressed to discuss it, he told her that she needed to have an aboriton. Unforutnately for him, he put off talking to her until the beginning of her second trimester when it was too late to even consider an abortion(even though she told him about it the first month). She thought about adoption. She decided in the end to keep the baby. She had felt that life grow in her for a time, and decided it was part of her. That's all she could do. Keep it. HE....on the other hand....HE decided to move to another town. Become a cop. Set up a home. Refuse to sign the birth certificate.

Now, she's doing what she can to be a single mom. BUT...in this state, when you apply to medicaid for your kid, (Which she did as she is trying to finish college now)they automatically go after the father. She now has the choice to force him to do what he has refused to do for four years, or figure out how to make it without the system that she helped pay for when she was working full time before entering college. He still gets to deny the kid. He still has his easy life.

Why? Because he was able to physically walk away from the being that is his child. She could not do that. She had to either be a single mom or kill her unborn child. Wow, tough choice eh? His choice? Back road or highway on the track out of town?

The point is, for women abortion is not always an option. Reasons vary, but point for point, abortion is not even considered.

My mind boggles at the fact that men can walk away from the pregnancy whenever they want and yet they gripe about rights.

Sex is for procreation. Sexual gratification is not. Whne you have sex, you know all possible outcomes. You live with your decision as to where you ejaculate. I'd say for folks who don't want one of the possible outcomes....choose your palm.

As far as men's right....there is another side of the coin. I know a woman who aborted her pregnancy even though the dad offered to take total care...financial, emotional...all of it. She thought he was too selfish to understand the toll it would take on her body, and her psyche to have a child. Go figure.

All in all...stick to oral sex unless you're ready to be a mommy or a daddy. 😀

Cheers,
Jo

 

[MrMacphisto]

JoBelle, you bring up some interesting points on this issue...

I'd agree that the choices men have to make on this issue are generally easier than that of the woman's. An interesting counter to this though is the following...

The women who choose to raise the child for moral reasons (like the belief that abortion is murder) aren't forced to make that decision. No one ever forced them to perceive an embryo as an "unborn child." There are many of us that believe that it isn't really an unborn child until the later stages of development. Some even believe that abortion doesn't matter until the child is actually delivered. Whatever the case, the current legislation deems abortion legal until the second trimester (I think... I can't remember the exact limit). Because of this, the woman still has abortion as a choice until then. She even has RU-486 (I mislabeled it as RU-485 earlier) as a choice until about the 9th week. Anyway, by choosing to have the child, you're not only making a decision for yourself, but under the current system, you're making it for the guy too. Truth be told, my only interest in this subject is academic, since I seriously doubt this issue will ever apply to me.

One last thing... I'm sure this will probably piss off a lot of people, but I have to mention it. George Carlin has some excellent routines about how life really isn't sacred. When I say that I agree with him, I'm not condoning outright murder, but it does seem rather naive to assume that life has some kind of inherent value when you think about the millions of people who are literally born to die in Third World countries. For example, many countries in sub-Saharan Africa have such high infant mortality rates that it's almost as if nature itself has an abortion plan of its own. When you consider how quickly our species is growing, maybe a few abortions here and there are a good way to keep the population down. It's obvious that we can't keep people from having sex, and contraceptives are only so effective. It would be ideal if more people followed JoBelle's "oral sex only" suggestion, but I suppose a lot of people just have to go all the way to gratify themselves.

 

[maverick83]

No flame, just difference of opinion

Abortion is always an option. One's beliefs may make one decide not to even consider it (and in that sense it could be viewed as 'not an option' by the individual in question. I realize this is what you mean.), but it is still an option.

As for the guy in your story, personally I don't blame him. What he did is something I don't think I would be able to bring myself to do, but I still don't blame him. Unplanned pregnancy is usually a difficult situation any way you look at it, for both people involved. As this thread has proven, it's a touchy subject (as abortion itself is). In any case like the type being debated in this thread, someone is going to suffer. Asking a woman to kill her unborn child...asking a man to raise and/or be responsible for a child he is not ready for...how can we attach values to each of these difficult suggestions and compare them? So while my stance remains, I can definately understand the opposing perspective. As for my stance on abortion itself, I am pro-choice, in that:
I feel it is difficult to determine whether or not a fetus qualifies as a human life (in essence, is killing a fetus murder? Or is it the equivalent of say, swatting a fly?), and therefore feel that the decision is best left in the hands of the one carrying it. My attitude is: You want to have an abortion? Go ahead. It's really none of my business.

There's my opinion, because it's 4:30 am, I'm bored, and I feel like saying stuff. 😀

 

[kis123]

Life is all about choices, and no one ever told you life is fair. It is unfair that a life is conceived between two people unprepared for the experiences. It is unfair that someone feels that he or she is not repsonsible to bring that life forth and care for that child. It seems so unfair that there are CONSEQUENCES for sex, pregnancy being one of them.

The fact of the matter is, as unfair as it seems, it doesn't make the reality any less true. When a child is conceived, tough choices must be made. If you don't want a child, don't have sex. That instantly solves the problem. You can't have your cake and eat it too, at least not in this situation. If you can't keep yourself under control sexually, then you have to deal with the consequences of your actions.

There was a time that women didn't even have legal abortion as an option. If she got pregnant and the man didn't want to stick around, she was stuck having a baby she didn't plan for with no father to help raise the baby. She also was shunned by her family and community for having a bastard baby. And she got to endure this all by herself. Or, she could try to abort the baby herself. Those days weren't that long ago.

Now that women have been given the choices, people (mostly the men) are angry that they're exercising their freedom of choice. This one is not going to be won guys. Just vent and move on.

OddJob and OBM, I merely pity the woman/women you get involved with. A real man takes responsibility for the life he puts into a woman because that's a part of him. If you chose to walk away from that responsibility, you're just as much as a coward and a spineless, gutless cow as my own father was. Get yourselves a vasectomy then you don't have to worry about impregnating any woman! But you wouldn't want to do that would you? Maybe you think it cuts off your manhood, like men tend to think. What cuts off a man's manhood is planting your seeds all over the place and not being responsible for raising them to know you as a father. You can't have it both ways, you're going to lose out on this one.

MrMacphisto, there is no counter point. Whether you agree or not, life is still life. Be it at conception, or six months later, there is still a life in that womb. Comparing this situation with third world countries where the women have absolutely no choices at all but to have baby after baby and birth control is not allowed, is not an apples-to-apples comparison by any means.

I am one of seven children, six still living. My mother did not plan for the last three children, me being one of them. She didn't have the so-called right to abort her babies because she would have to get my father's permission to have an abortion. My father wouldn't do such a thing, neither would he stick around to raise us or pay child support. So he had his rights, and enjoyed his rights, just bailed out on his responsibilities. My mother didn't have any options but to raise her children. My father took up with another woman and raised her children. How noble for him! Enough of my crappy childhood. I've made something better of myself and I have only my mother for that. My father was a dog that would stick himself into anything with a hole in it. He missed out on my life.

Everyone who's been screaming and shouting about the unfairness of it all are the men who will never get pregnant, never deliver a child, and have notoriously been the ones to run from their responsibilities to raise children. They'll leave that child fatherless until some act of conscience (usually felt after the child becomes an adult and they're no longer finacially obligated) takes over and they want a relationship with the kid they abandoned. The women are not saints since now they're starting to do the same things. But they're treated worse than dirt if they do abandon their kids, aren't they?

 

[AffectionateDan]

Holy $#*%!!! You've gotta be $#*%%ing me....

Being a person that has been in a similar situation, I believe I can butt right in.

First of all, Lime is right. That is what I tried to get my oldest child's father to do. He signed away his rights when my son was a baby, then took me back to court when he was fourteen to regain his rights. So much for men not having any say. These are the some of the same men who don't pay a dime in child support (like my ex) but still have the right to be in my kid's lives. Men have more rights than you think.

PLEASE tell me that the judge either laughed that @$$hole out of court, or made him pay 14 years of back-child-support, with all the fines and fees included! I'm gonna puke if he got away with it...

 

[kis123]

My dad gave me words of wisdom when I about 15. "Never go to bed with a woman you wouldn't consider marrying" I've always kept these words close by. I always thought my dad was pretty savvy.

This is about the most intelligent piece posted on this forum yet. Simple and to the point. Everyone wants the sex, but no one wants to deal with the consequences. Your dad gave you the best piece of advice any parent could give a child. Maybe we're both unrealistic tyf, but I don't think so!😎

 

[kis123]

Re: Holy $#*%!!! You've gotta be $#*%%ing me....

PLEASE tell me that the judge either laughed that @$$hole out of court, or made him pay 14 years of back-child-support, with all the fines and fees included! I'm gonna puke if he got away with it...

Yeah, they laughed him out of court, but not without me suffering the time consuming pain of it all. This story gets better, but it's off post content. If you want to hear the rest, pm me sometime.🙄