What do you really want to see in a C4S store?

[Kujman1]

Talk To The Wall

i agree with you 1000000 percent dude. he will never open a store and he knows it. just like when he had that ticklepalace website and it wasgoing to be all interactive and have all this tickling stuff behind doors. than what ahppens, all of a sudden "hackers hacked it, and he got fed up. whatever

Wow. Glad you have all the answers, Bud... even if only in your own mind.

Since you probably weren't even hatched when I was already producing Tied & Tickled and doing live demos on two coasts- let me point out that was the hard groundwork laid for this community and you should consider having some respect for those that "came and did" first, and who have tried to give new creative things to the community despite being constantly bashed- unlike you who has only had to flip on a computer to connect and then copy the work of others, and then generally flame them.

Since you've attained an attitude about me without meeting me, creating half the things I have, or even speaking to me.. yet amazingly know it all.. I feel I've run into your kind a million times. Very lame individuals. They talk a great story. Thus I've learned there's little that can be 'told' to them than any solid cement wall wouldn't hear and understand far better. So I'll talk to the wall, that way you can't take any offense due to adolescent insecurities.

(turns to wall) :rolleyes

Hi, Cementhead!

Pity 'bout your bogus claim. A store is already completed. It awaits a new secure media porthole so that we may connect live streaming events.

BTW-TicklePalace.com was (and is) interactive, and was the first TK themesite, and the first to have interactive tickling victims, as well as how-to's, demos, interactive parties, rooms that changed dailey, traps, creative and new material from me, characters that lead you along, etc.. it was originally on a CD rom- an interactive game that I was asked to convert to an online form. It contained over 55 rooms with double that amount to be added.

Oh.. here's something else it was-- it was FREE. And yours?

Please point me to your site so that I may see the error of my ways and how great your creativity is. I'm anxious to see. I've been told that to-date no one has yet offered better.. but I'm sure you'll correct me and point me in the direction of your site.

The Palace was too far ahead of it's time for two reasons:

A) it required a fast cable internet connection, which I had through a company I was developing at that time, Jelsoft, for media purposes- that by the way powers both TMF and TT. Few had such speed at that time. Of course fast cable is commonplace today. TP still exists, and nowadays for those I open it up for, it loads like lightning.

B) it required visitors who wanted something more than quick downloadable j/o material... which is what most guys (perhaps even you) seek first and foremost and you can find abundantly from others online-- and I won't supply. I go for the mental aspects accented by the physical... not boob sizes, quickies, and bad acting from underage hotties.

There's no "all of a sudden" to it, Mr. Wall- TP was online for years. After numerous hacking attempts (which were hailed by some in the TK world as justified, because as we all know it's fine to sell your mother in order to gain some TK material) and material thefts (since there is no way to protect one's work from being stolen and reposted w/o permission online yet).. and flames from attitudes (like yours) and useless various nitwits who couldn't offer anything better themselves.. I closed the doors of my FREE site to all but a handful of loyal fans. My money, my time, my choice.

Anyone of any reasonable IQ level- who thinks with something other than their dick- would also have gotten 'fed-up' and done the same.

So there's your 'whatever' right back in your own face.

Now.. unless you're going to show us your site and dazzle us with your creative touches?? Then please... do us a favor and run off like like a good little boy? And download some material from Tickle Abuse or some such place and make yourself feel better? And leave the rest of the adults here alone so we can discuss more intelligent matters.

:cool

 

[whistler1]

So how likely is a C4S store Kuj? :coolthumbup

Just think, you can show the haters that you have the best stuff (and thus annoying the hell out of them) AND make loads of money at the same time!

 

[Kujman1]

We've been filming batches of new things/ideas/devices for some time. Waiting on some details, presentation protocol, and of course the timing. In won't say it's the best or the worst- but it's 100% real. It may be too hardcore. Another interesting choice is I've had an offer to purchase my material outright from a private collector and may do so and let them present it and deal with it as they wish, if he wishes to present it at all.

As for the money and the haters? Neither one of those interest us. The former we have, and the latter will go right on hating. Let them waste their time as they wish. This is just for pure creative excitement and our own RCS (reality capture scenes).. and those of you who would enjoy such.

🙂

 

[Redbaron]

your bondage

I think you take the time to do bondage right...meaning really tight inescapable bondage...esp. when it comes to the feet..in so many of your photos you see the bottoms barefeet so completely immobilized....not able to move an inch ...that is one of the first things I noticed when your photos appeared on the web...a foot ticklers dream....toes twitching and hands flailing as you explore their soles unable to do anything more than scream and laugh their head off!...

Anyway..thats my 2 cents...I think you would capture more of an audience than you think with your style...I know I have been a fan for a long time...since I first came online..your photos were among some of the first I ever came across.

Troy

 

[whistler1]

As for the money and the haters? Neither one of those interest us. The former we have, and the latter will go right on hating. Let them waste their time as they wish.

That's what I don't understand - if they don't interest you why do you continue to feed the trolls by replying to them? Ignore them and they'll get frustrated and leave.

 

[BigJim1]

As for the money and the haters? Neither one of those interest us. The former we have, and the latter will go right on hating. Let them waste their time as they wish. This is just for pure creative excitement and our own RCS (reality capture scenes).. and those of you who would enjoy such.

🙂

That being the case, why worry if something is "too hardcore for this community"? If it is, then the people already don't like it will continue not to, but as this thread will testify, there are a bunch of people here who would be in the opposite direction.

I don't personally understand why, if this is the case, you would give an airborne act of copulation for any negative reaction, considering you would personally hear 99% from the people who actually bought into it. Even if ten people immediately posted "why I want to flame Kuj" threads on their main boards, you just click thhe iggy button.
No matter how good a product or what sort of personality someone has, if they're only going to make their work publicly available when they can be certain there won't be any vociferous criticism (justified or unjustified), it won't ever get seen at all by anyone they don't personally hand it to. A real pisser for people who admire the work who live many miles away.

Bottm line: a C4S retail medium would generate money (which you say you don't care about) at no risk or possibility of loss to yourself, and great deal of approbation (which you say you do care about) from fans of the material.
You say "let them waste their time as they wish", intimating you can ignore critics without it giving you any more grey hairs, but you've also intimated that you haven't yet created this store because you know it would produce flaming. This personally leaves me very confused about where you stand, and even if speculation is wrong, I can understand why people would attempt to read into your motivations for mooting the idea at all when the discussion has gone on for so long and all those of us who slaver at the thought of legit video clips being for sale are kept on tenterhooks.

You also have the benefit (although you seem to perceive it as a bad thing) of doing stuff that crosses several different boundaries and communities. There may not be a "community" for 100% of your stuff outside of the world you personally live in, but certain sections of several (or even many) non-vanilla communities will like it.

 

[Comfort Eagle]

Amateurs and lots of em.

 

[desk]

Women with no schlongs!

 

[birdburdy]

That being the case, why worry if something is "too hardcore for this community"? If it is, then the people already don't like it will continue not to, but as this thread will testify, there are a bunch of people here who would be in the opposite direction.

Actually many more people will realise they like the more serious style of play. When I started looking at online TK photographs I was excited by almost everything. This may because I live in a country where you don't get to see feet very often (it's cold, few beaches) but the fact remains that bondage with even rubbish restraints would pretty much do it for me.

Then I saw the thread on here "For the slightly more sadistic amoung us" and since I was beginning to feel like I liked more than just tickleparadise I had a look. I hadn't heard of Kujman before, I hadn't heard of the ticklepalace either but I immediately *loved* both! Since then I quite rapidly went off the usual tickling clips and now I only come here about once a fortnight to look at the discussions page.

My point is that by releasing more of your videos you will actually get more people liking the "hardcore" tickling material. Making our part of the community bigger and less fragmented.

 

[birdburdy]

That's what I don't understand - if they don't interest you why do you continue to feed the trolls by replying to them? Ignore them and they'll get frustrated and leave.

That's basically true - the flamers were looking for a reaction, and they got it. Rather than totally ignoring them I think it's best to calmly deny what they say (e.g. when they make up stories about videos never being posted) so that new members don't get the wrong impression, and then ignore them.

Actually on the topic of these accusations and forums rules, shouldn't there be a forum rule against slander/libel?

 

[LionKing08]

the sad thing is people have been beging KJ to release more videos, but no matter what he will not do so. It is sad because i think it would sell.

 

[Kujman1]

the sad thing is people have been beging KJ to release more videos, but no matter what he will not do so. It is sad because i think it would sell.

Actually.. we've already filmed a new batch, that in conjuction with a warehouse full of videos and live demos we already have, in preparation for a possible store... provided the assholes and flaming trolls leave me alone. We're also working on a live call-in event.

We would also host one of my all-out theme events but there isn't enough people to attend on the East Coast. Just talkers and nest goers.

The 'selling point' has never been doubted- although the TK market is sooo oversaturated with poor tickleporn videos that it'll get lumped in if we label it such, so we're going the BDSM route instead....

Nor has the intensity we offer been an issue (which usually scares the shit out of ticklers who go for the lighter, mundane videos abundantly available today).. everyone has their own tastes, and we have a huge mailing list already. I'm making what I always have- our style, our headspace, our devices. To the edge and a bit over, some noncon, all original and NEW ideas.

The stalling point is Internet security.

There isn't any.

You have no rights, no one honors your work, or your requests. They'd sell their own mother to get material. You have no control over people taking your material w/o permission and posting it on message boards. I've had enough of that over the years. I do not want it on certain sites, nor photos or vidcaps of it posted on garbagy sites alongside cheap tickleporn- only to be flamed. If it's our material and not public domain, then we have that right and it should be honored online as well. By law we do. But who has time to chase people all over the WWW and starting legal action?

Several video producers have told me how much of their material gets stolen and posted on Youtube for free- killing their profits. I know mine would be too. Some don't seem to care much because they churn out 5 or 10 films a month and quality and originality mean little to them... and as they say, there's nothing you can do about it. Once it's out there- it's out there.

This is the same reason we have't reopened the TicklePalace site, all redone and ready to go.. it just sits and waits behind the dunes.

So- since none of the stores offer any such Internet security.. or legal action against those that steal and post materials... and theres really no way around it.. we sit in limbo waiting for the day such is available..

..and we don't like it any more than YOU do!

😛issed

 

[ghosthunter0]

Try releasing a teaser clip to the web. While it IS true there isn't anything anyone can do about internet pirates, a teaser clip with get on-the-level fans such as myself so pumped that we would buy ANY copies you did release, including the special edition flip-book with hand cranked music box audio!

 

[Inverse]

The era of digital security will never come. Ever. If billion dollar industries like Hollywood can't stop it, you can't. This may be fine, you don't have to release your footage, or expand your communites, but I've seen you long for a community that isn't satisfied by what is out there yet you don't really leave them with any alternative. You can't just sit there behind the dunes and expect the world to change. If you're satisfied with that, then I suppose that's fine... yet Im not sure you are.

 

[Comfort Eagle]

Actually.. we've already filmed a new batch, that in conjuction with a warehouse full of videos and live demos we already have, in preparation for a possible store... provided the assholes and flaming trolls leave me alone. We're also working on a live call-in event.

Dude, I'm gonna tell you what I had to tell waytooticklish.

You filmed it, it's done, you've spent the money to make it already. You release it and make something while realizing a lot of them are going to end up on torrents and megaupload, or you hold onto it to prevent pirates and make nothing.

I understand it's frustrating when people steal your shit without paying, but it's made and over with. Either the pride of making absolutely sure nobody will ever see it without paying is worth nobody ever seeing it at all, or you bite the bullet and try to make something off of time and effort already spent.

 

[Inverse]

From what Kujman is saying, these kinds of videos aren't even the type that make money in this community anyway. Some of my favorite videos were the one hour clips Dungeonmaidens put out awhile ago, while not the most amazing videos in a quality sense, I adored the tone set by them. Surely there was better out there, but I couldn't find any. While Realtickling and MTP flourished. I keep hearing of these amazing videos from back in the day, but I've never seen them. They might as well not exist.

Kujman, I know you're from an old era, but if you've made the choice not to share this with those that would find interest, then by all means keep your creative content. But you show your age when you think a solution to content copying will ever arise. You pretty much have to give up on the digital world entirely, and whatever you made will die with you. Which is, undoubtedly your choice.

 

[birdburdy]

Actually.. we've already filmed a new batch,

That's really cool. Would you also think of releasing your older tapes too?

The stalling point is Internet security.

There isn't any.

You have no rights, no one honors your work, or your requests.

It's not just internet security KJ, some very large companies (Sony and others) have tried for a long time now to prevent video piracy. It's impossible and always will be: even if you could stop people breaking the copy-protection (encryption) you can't stop them pointing a video camera at the computer screen and recording what it sees. Most modern digital cameras have HD video recording.

However, you released Sorority 1 about ten years ago and that has not been pirated online (if it had it would be everywhere by now). Most people who've paid for a product aren't that quick to give it to others for free. Some of your stuff is pirated because newbies don't know who you are, and don't realise that it's commercial video. If you keep a low profile I guess this is one of the side effects.

We would also host one of my all-out theme events but there isn't enough people to attend on the East Coast. Just talkers and nest goers.

I would hope that by releasing your material more people would become informed about the hardcore type of play that's possible. Like I said before this should increase the number of players in our scene. Not everyone realises they would like this type of play until they see it.

 

[Kujman1]

Try releasing a teaser clip to the web. While it IS true there isn't anything anyone can do about internet pirates, a teaser clip with get on-the-level fans such as myself so pumped that we would buy ANY copies you did release, including the special edition flip-book with hand cranked music box audio!

I did a couple years ago, if you recall, with "Plastered!" (mummification in plaster of two sisters).. I even went so far as to take out all the heating and itching, leaving in just torrential ticklings..

It was to be followed up with "Haybale!" (the haybale bondage series)

But it was the same as always. Threats. Insults. Producers using false names. I was attacked, accused of torture, and noncon, and flamed so heavily that they had to yank all the posts.. and I yanked my preview.

Thats why I've never tried again. I simply have better things to do, and a better girl to do them with! Having met me- you know how busy I actually am.. wasting time online fighting flames from assholes who never leave their bedroom closet just aint my thing.

 

[Kujman1]

That's really cool. Would you also think of releasing your older tapes too?

Yes... all we have. Beach buryings, sororities, private demos, even club demos... and specialty things we've filmed.

But I won't place them under a tickling heading because they're geared more towards BDSM- tortures, torments, headspace, noncon, immobile bondage, and true tickling as torture.

It's not just internet security KJ, some very large companies (Sony and others) have tried for a long time now to prevent video piracy. It's impossible and always will be

Probably true- I know a few TK producers who are thinking of tossing in the towel due to their work being placed on youtube all the time. Why on Earth would I want to join their ranks? We're happy as we are.

Most people who've paid for a product aren't that quick to give it to others for free.

Yes, they are. They do it here and on TMF all the time. This is what makes them heroes to everyone. The fact they're stealing the work never registers.

Some of your stuff is pirated because newbies don't know who you are, and don't realise that it's commercial video.

Nawww. I used to want to believe that. But honestly, anyone in today's day and age who knowingly posts material that isn't theirs w/o getting permisson knows exactly what they're doing... and are low grade imbeciles.

I would hope that by releasing your material more people would become informed about the hardcore type of play that's possible. Like I said before this should increase the number of players in our scene. Not everyone realises they would like this type of play until they see it.

Thats the best argument FOR releasing it I've heard!

Kuj

 

[Kujman1]

Dude, I'm gonna tell you what I had to tell waytooticklish.

You filmed it, it's done, you've spent the money to make it already. You release it and make something while realizing a lot of them are going to end up on torrents and megaupload, or you hold onto it to prevent pirates and make nothing.

I understand it's frustrating when people steal your shit without paying, but it's made and over with. Either the pride of making absolutely sure nobody will ever see it without paying is worth nobody ever seeing it at all, or you bite the bullet and try to make something off of time and effort already spent.

Look, to be fair, and not condescending... I've been around way longer than anyone here. I was doing live club demos for this and creating Tied & Tickled magazine before 90% of the people here were born. Before there was a community. When it still had class and style.

So with all due respect to your valid suggestion, theres little-to-nothing you can tell me about this scene that I haven't already experienced and know first-hand... and most of it I originated! I've seen people and trends come and go, and watched this whole community sour and go downhill over the years. Everyone says it, not just me. People will rob and steal you blind in order to get the tiniest snippet. I have HUGE passion for what I create... but I've never understood those attitudes, or why it's so damned important to them... so much so that wghile they could simply could 'ask' if they could post your material first, it gains them some level of stature of they steal it from you. Its common courtesy & respect being overlooked.

That said, you must know little of my history. It's NEVER been about the money...hell I hosted my site for free for years, and always posted my materials for free. Then when I did sell for a while all the monies went directly to two charities- not to me.

It's about the creativity... the depth... the quality... the headspace... the reality... the bondage...the scene... the panic... and most of all- it's about respecting what people create and their right to have it posted (or not posted) on certain sites.

So.. you really don't have a clue as to how it feels to have your hard work taken, cut up, edited, music put to it, then posted w/o your permission.. and people flame it---- all the while jerking-off to it. It makes no sense to me.

I walked away from that yeeeeears ago. All this is doing is bringing back terrible memories.

One day I think the WWW will change, and people in this community will change. They'll actually band together for the good of everyone as the word 'community' implies.

One day.

 

[Kujman1]

So how likely is a C4S store Kuj? :coolthumbup

Just think, you can show the haters that you have the best stuff (and thus annoying the hell out of them) AND make loads of money at the same time!

It's all together, videos ready.. as is the new TicklePalace Themesite. Its trying to work out something with the store so they'll actually protect people such as ourselves- which they do not. Also we're trying to work out some new ideas on Internet security through my old company, Jelsoft. Till then I'm not putting my head on a chopping block for anyone as I'm not a tickle martyr.

Others open stores for different reasons than I- mostly they want to make a fast buck WHILE getting the only chance they will to tickle a girl (in this case a paid model who fakes being ticklish). They don't care about quality, originality, or true scenes of bondage and torment.. just fast, cheap, and easy.

The money doesn't matter to me. I don't care about the haters, nor do I seek accolades or silly awards (just respect would be nice). As for ticklees- I have one very special one where I can go to any level with, and a few dozen more who will join us in any thing we request.. so those motives of 'needing a tickling fix' do not apply. Our stuff goes way beyond tickling anyway, and into bdsm and headspace.

So that only leaves quality and creativity as my motives. Thats what I like... but the community does not support those issues at this time.

When they do, I'll still be here :rolleyes

 

[Kujman1]

The era of digital security will never come.

Ah, young Jedi... you lack belief. This is why you fail.

It will come, and mark these words- it's right around the corner. read my other posts.

If billion dollar industries like Hollywood can't stop it, you can't.

Actually, yes it's exactly people like me that can. All it takes is the right creative mind to come up with the solution. You underestimate us.... but I understand why. Wait and see. For example, this site uses the very software we created.

I work in show business.. and I can guarantee you, it'll happen.

This may be fine, you don't have to expand your communites...

I don't know where you get your misinformation from.

Expand them... exactly to where? For why?? And for who?

As has been posted by others, we've clearly already surpassed the TK and BDSM communities with our reality scene play, teaching demos, theme events, private parties, and more. BTW--The TK community as most know it (here and on the TMF) are actually teensy tiny versions of the actual community- many of who never bother being online. Don't judge the amount of ticklers by these two message boards. It's MUCH larger.

I've seen you long for a community that isn't satisfied by what is out there yet you don't really leave them with any alternative.

Alternative... as in ...?

You can't just sit there behind the dunes and expect the world to change.

Actually.. Yes...... I can. Thats why I made the Palace in the Yashebian desert. Like King Arthur's Knights all held up in a cave. Because I stick to my beliefs, standards and morals. And we enjoy ourselves. This is called integrity cuz I won't sell out.

Also because I have the luxury of having done it all, and still do. You name it, dream it, I did it. Today people are far too scared to do what we do. I don't know why. You tell me.

Karmagirl is the only one who keeps me in this online community- I'm fine being private...far more fun, and all real.

I don't have any intention of adding to a community that simply doesn't care.. and that wants fast cheap flicks to whack-off to...A.K.A. tickleporn.

If you're satisfied with that, then I suppose that's fine... yet Im not sure you are.

I'm certainly not- I'd love to make people happy, show them new techniques, open their eyes to new fun and pleasures, and depths of reality.. IF they were ready and willing. But I'm not so sure they are. Just a handfull.

The rest are horses staring at the water you lead them too.. then they go to drink out of a muddy puddle instead because it's closer.

And you're right- I like to make people happy.. and long for a time that once was.. and could be again... if people all stood together. They used to. Not anymore. Everyone just wants to 'fit in' so they all swim the same way like a blind school of fish.

Or maybe this is your point: we don't offer them an alternative.

Who wouldn't want more quality, less copying, stealing, and posting, something more to sink your teeth into, that you could look at and KNOW is 100% real?

From what Kujman is saying, these kinds of videos aren't even the type that make money in this community anyway.

No, thats not what I said. These films- reality films- make a mint... but because 99% of TK producers can't make them, they attack those who can by telling others those films are bad.. in order to preserve their own sales.

Kujman, I know you're from an old era

Nope. I'm from the 'original' era. Where style and class thrived.

And may I add- I remain ageless. The material I made 35 years ago or more is still considered hot material because it captures real moments.. and yet is no different than the material I shot last weekend.

Time stands still in the desert, my friend 🙂

if you've made the choice not to share this with those that would find interest, then by all means keep your creative content.

Those that want to see it and join in it already seek me out..

But you show your age when you think a solution to content copying will ever arise.

Oh brother, the age remarks again.. lol... and you show your age when you think the world of technology will stand still and stay as it is. Let's wait and see who's right!

You pretty much have to give up on the digital world entirely, and whatever you made will die with you.

Wow- you sure have this age/death hang-up thing going on, don't ya? Well sorry to disappoint you but I have no intention of croaking just yet. I've survived far longer than anyone in this scene, seen them all come and go, and been in the public eye since 15... I think I'll stick around to the end of it and see what happens.

It's doubtful my material will die with me. We have so many years of materials, photos, and tapes that we never look at it because we're too busy playing. So if it ever topples over on us, that may be the cause of our death!

A true "Death by tickling"! What a way to go!

Now, lets get this thread back on track- enough negativity-

..or lest it rest...

 

[Inverse]

Actually, I found my stance to be quite positive. It's less to do with age than really a synchronous with the way tech is dealt with. I'm someone who uses software on a daily basis. This it will come thing? I'm sorry to say is not really feasible. You would require non-repudiation, which although feasible is highly unlikely... and yes, can still be broken. Sigh~ sorry, never mind. I apologize, but I'm obviously not the only one frustrated by this stance of yours. I'll let you be. Time may stand still in the desert Kuj, but it doesn't everywhere else. GL to you. <3

 

[Comfort Eagle]

Look, to be fair, and not condescending... I've been around way longer than anyone here. I was doing live club demos for this and creating Tied & Tickled magazine before 90% of the people here were born. Before there was a community. When it still had class and style.

So with all due respect to your valid suggestion, theres little-to-nothing you can tell me about this scene that I haven't already experienced and know first-hand... and most of it I originated! I've seen people and trends come and go, and watched this whole community sour and go downhill over the years. Everyone says it, not just me. People will rob and steal you blind in order to get the tiniest snippet. I have HUGE passion for what I create... but I've never understood those attitudes, or why it's so damned important to them... so much so that wghile they could simply could 'ask' if they could post your material first, it gains them some level of stature of they steal it from you. Its common courtesy & respect being overlooked.

That said, you must know little of my history. It's NEVER been about the money...hell I hosted my site for free for years, and always posted my materials for free. Then when I did sell for a while all the monies went directly to two charities- not to me.

It's about the creativity... the depth... the quality... the headspace... the reality... the bondage...the scene... the panic... and most of all- it's about respecting what people create and their right to have it posted (or not posted) on certain sites.

So.. you really don't have a clue as to how it feels to have your hard work taken, cut up, edited, music put to it, then posted w/o your permission.. and people flame it---- all the while jerking-off to it. It makes no sense to me.

I walked away from that yeeeeears ago. All this is doing is bringing back terrible memories.

One day I think the WWW will change, and people in this community will change. They'll actually band together for the good of everyone as the word 'community' implies.

One day.

No no, you're right, i wasn't here during the golden age of "tickle community", I just popped in around 03.

It stopped being a 'community' a long, long time ago, and while it's nice you're holding out for the magical days of 60 active posters on tiny forums, even you just said there are a shitload more ticklers than communal forums would imply;

Don't judge the amount of ticklers by these two message boards. It's MUCH larger.

It's a fetish, and you're making fetish porn. It's super cool you beat me to the party, but you're going to get more and more frustrated until you put it into perspective.

 

[tickle_tracy]

I guess I am alone here. I love to see male victims! Middle-aged men, off the charts insanely ticklish that fear the sight of a feather, placed in strict ,creative positions(anything but spread eagle loose bed bondage), preferable nonconsensual-like predicaments with taunting sadistic evil tormentors(male or female) that really mind-f*ck their victims. My charge card is always ready to get used for such material, problem is, I can't find it!! sadly as I echo in my lonely world I will keep searching............:blush Natasha.

I agree completely!