Where God came from.

[JoBelle]

OK,

So here it goes.

I'm sitting here minding my own business when this renegade thought pops into my head.

Imagine yourself floating in space.

...*POOF!*...the earth disappears.

Followed by *POOF!* after *POOF!* as the sun, stars and all other matter go bye-bye.

AHEM...yes, then what?

*looks around*

*bites lip*

Is this where God lives?

And....erm....if not...where'd all that other stuff come from?

My son says, "God's mom put it there."

Lunatic kid I'm rearing. 😛

At least he has an answer.

*sigh*

I thought when I found faith in God all those years ago that these idiot scenarios would go away. Now, I wanna know where HE (it or she depending on your views) came from.

Never satisfied,

Joby

 

[drew70]

My understanding is that God is an eternal being, and outside our references that are based on linear time. You know, always was, always will be?

 

[venray]

An entity made entirely of energy that spawned the electric spark which we call the human soul which lives in the host bodies most suitable for this planet.

...Or perhaps it's just the wine T & I consumed whilst watching The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen....😉


Ray

 

[JoBelle]

Oh see, you two...those are both very good answers.

I even seem to believe the "ever present" thought. I only feel that's true because that spark of creation lies outside of our three dimensional understanding. It's that part that's BEYOND that I want to know about. You know...that part I probably don't understand even though it's staring me right in the face! 😀

Wine? God talk requires vodka. Hello?

😉
Jo

 

[the_Baron]

when dealing with concepts of eternally existed; above space and time; all knowing and present - we have to admit that try as we may, we simply can't truly understand these implications. God, as the ultimate truth and reality, is currently out of our total grasp of understanding. we do have knowledge of Him to the extent He has given it to us, in the person and work of Christ.

 

[Lazarus]

The way I figure it...

Don't question....just believe.

 

[Ticklish9's]

Where did He come from?

I've put a lot of thought into this one... glad you asked, and I hope I can help. 🙂

The first thing to understand is that we exist within the confines of the physical universe. Our brains (and, consequently, our minds) are bound to observe that physical universe from within. It is this binding of perception that yields us the concept of linear time.

It is also our existence within the universe that gives us our laws of logic. Logic is derived from the fundamental laws of nature that govern reality.

Given these two statements, one can only conclude that neither logic nor time "apply" to that which is "outside" the universe (more accurately, one can divide all of existence into "Universe" and "not universe"). It is for this reason that, while one can accept that God exists and "always has" existed, it's not entirely accurate and it's not entirely understandable - and it is physically impossible for the human brain to truly understand God's nature.

"Before you were, I am" the bible states.

That said, we DO possess that spark of God Himself that sets us apart from the animals and makes us creators, rather than creatures. While we are not God's equals in stature, we are His equals in love.

At least, that's how I see it. 🙂

 

[JoBelle]

You sound like Flatman, T9. 😉

The main reason I've never doubted the big guy is that I would assume that since there are humans more intelligent than I, I would hope there is some other force out there that can outwit the folks who claim there is not greater force.

I don't doubt the placement or being of god. I just really want to know how it all STARTED.

Jo

(Glad to see you back by the way!)

 

[Admiral Trouser]

Its an interesting question 🙂

Its also a bit of a bugger to answer: Essentialy, God, as Christian theology understands Him, exists outside of the Universe, and is in crude sense considred to be just a far more powerful and larger Soul. Which is a problem in itself because, no matter how powerful it is, it's still (by definition of it being an immiterial thing) something that shouldn't be able to have any effect on this universe. Nor should we, therefore, have any knowledge of it. But we apparantly do. And if you're Religious (I'm not) God has had a pretty damn profound efrect on just about everything.

It still doesn't change the fact that he's so poweful that he transcends everything and, therefore, can never be directly experienced: Even to Moses he appeared as a Metaphore. So trying to figure out where he came from empiricaly (through experience) is a futile gesture. As evidence and theories go, we have only what our minds can rationaly create.

So...if everything has a cause in *this* universe, who or what Caused God? More over, if something brought him into being, then that thing would have to be equal to or greater than Him in power...making him less of what we perceive him to be. Which is a pain in the arse for most religious folk.

So....pass 😉

AT

 

[Ayla ny]

My son says, "God's mom put it there."

my now eight year old son has always referred to God as “She”. I never had the heart, or the first hand knowledge, to correct him. I did however eventually tell him that most people refer to God as a He. he found this just as laughable as the time I told him that he should try using the potty instead of his diaper. 🙂

 

[JoBelle]

AT - You make just the point that I can't get my brain around. Something created god. And I'm not a masochist, so there's high doubt that I'll ever really go loopy over the fact that I can't suss it out. I'll be the first to admit that it's rather like a to finish a puzzle while missing two pieces. I'll keep trying it a couple times a year just knowing it won't work out!

Ayla!

My son has this lovely habit that he learned from me. He speaks in circles. "Mom, God's not a boy or a girl. God's just a big...ghost kinda thing. Only God smiles. Kinda like when you first wake up and you like your bed. God smiles like that all the time. Only God doesn't have a bed. God sleeps out in space. But I don't know if God's a boy or a girl." I'd love to see his reaction to another kid who thinks like ours do!

Anyway...I figure I'll just leave it in the hands of the one who is beyond my level and hope he/she doesn't piss off his/her god!

Joby
Brain tired. Need sleep.

 

[The Pianist]

The idea about God being eternal doesn't phase me in the slightest. As far as I'm concerned, God created everything including time. By creating time he created space for a beginning an end and an eternity in between. Before there was that god just was.... there was no beginning for god, but he created a beginning for other things.

My friend Christos has a nice little metaphor type thing that he used once as part of an argument between him and a some atheist guy talking about this eternal stuff. He asked the guy to draw a sine curve (the guy being a very scientific guy)... so the guy drew one /\/ .... Christos then pointed out that he had only drawn it as 0<x<1 ... he hadn't actually drawn the whole sine curve because it was infinite and couldn't be drawn... but it still exsisted.

I'm not entirely sure what argument that was in, only that he won it. I think it has some relevance here... who knows.

 

[Admiral Trouser]

Time is a tricky thing IMO; its not perceived, its not exactly "felt", and it can't be examined. For something that is so fundamental to our lives, its an utterly vague concept: Try and give a definition or critique of the Present...its impossible. It's something so fleeting in nature in can never be "captured", like a freeze-frame, and studied, like any other scientific principle.
When I consider that, it makes me wonder if time exists beyond human perception at all, and therefore, if god really "created" it. That might explain why his eternal nature doesn't compute with our sense of how reality is...because we've got the whole thing backwards. Instead of His nature contradicting our perception of reality, its our perceptions that are out of touch with the true nature of things.

Maybe. Or maybe not, lol...

AT

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Re: The way I figure it...

Don't question....just believe.

While I believe in an informed faith, I have to agree with this on some level. Some questions are simply beyond us. Whenever I've wondered about God's existence, etc. all I have to do is take a long look at a starry sky. Then, there's no doubt in my mind that SOMEONE/SOMETHING had to be there to start it all. I mean, when you just keep going back and back and back...before anyone can even know...there had to be a beginning. I happen to believe that He is the beginning and is a wonderful artist in His creation.

For those who believe in the big bang theory, evolution, etc. (as I do), I don't find any contradiction. We just look at things in a different perspective. Scripture says that God created man in His image. Science says that man evolved through a myriad of creatures into what we are today. Scripture says that God created the earth. Science says that it was the big bang that resulted in earth and the universe. I don't see a contradiction here, simply a different way of viewing/stating things.

Ann

 

[Haltickling]

The concept of "God" has always been a synonym for the inexplicable. In early times, it was thunder and lightning, sun and rain, day and night, birth and death. These phenomenons have already found their explanation in science, but there's one more riddle we'll probably never solve: infinity! I guess our brains are just not organized to understand this, so there will always remain something inexplicable which we can identify with God (of whatever religion).

There are already examples for procedures that don't follow the cause-and-effect principle, mostly in quantum physics. Quantum mechanics must have played a crucial role during the Big Bang, so again, there's no real necessity why the beginning of our universe should have followed cause-and-effect then, or why God should be restricted to obey this principle. If He created the world, He probably created the cause-and-effect as well. If God is the origin of everything, what's the origin of this origin?

All that doesn't prove or disprove the existence of "God". As others have said: God is not a subject for science, it's entirely a matter of faith.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

hmm, good question.

some of the answers you've received so far have been interesting, and incomprehensible at the same time.

i think too darn much thought(and head aches) have gone into this, through out history. you might enjoy reading a book called "the source" by james mitchener. read the first couple chapters at least. it deals with the beginings of religion.

my personal take is that there is a "god" possibly even "gods". no, not the catholic trifecta, but multiple gods, sharing duties/responsibilities. i believe god/gods created us, then just about washed their hands of us. i guess i go along with the old viking beliefs. god gives you life, and free will, it's then up to you to make it in the world.

god/gods just is/are, there to accept if you want, or to worry about, and suffer headaches as a result.

steve

 

[WraithTickler]

I believe the best way of describing God is simply that God IS.

He is existence and the supreme mover, cause, being, etc. As stated in Exodus- "I am who am."

This is not to disprove natural science or the big bang or evolution. The world we live in is a physical one and for it to function certain laws of physical science must be in order. Anti evolutionists anger me in the fact that they deny this natural method, suggesting a more spontanious creation of man. I find this a bit offensive since it discredits the rest of the universe and the machinery which sets it in motion.

God is and would be beyond time, or time would simply be irrelivant. Time and space are the core material building blocks of our universe if you believe the string theory. Another interesting way of looking at God and time is this. If we in our 3D world could manipulate objects in a 2D one, like reaching down and taking an object out of a square which would be impenitrable from a purely 2D perspective, what if God saw time and subsequent dimensions the way we see the 1st and 2nd? Would that foresight alone constitute being God- purely or merely relative to scale?

Beyond time we turn to theology. God is an absolute being- infinite in power, wisdom, and love. There is a quote from Aquinas I believe that validates this statement. God is spirit and is complete. The natural longing and restlessness, spiritual angsts and searches for meaning that plague humans would not affect God since He is whole and complete, and if we sought to use this to validate our own existence, overflowing with this sense of completeness, giving way to spiritual fulfillment of man in God.

God's relationship to the physical universe is seen in many ways, subtle though. A great quote by Einstien on the existence of God reads, "God is subtle, but not malicious." If you would follow the Augistinian definition of evil and good. Evil is a negation of good, a detraction or corruption. This would support the earlier statement of God being the absolute, perfect being, and if he is the source of God and all, then evil would be a nothing/negation and something that is not God. This also would disprove a Manechian (sp?) theory on how there is a good God and an evil one, since there is only one God that is and by that, an evil deity would be nothing and simply non existent.

Our universe is believed to be one of many, with ours being able to theoretically breed others via matter break offs from the gravity bends in black holes. Even with this, and the big bang, and so forth, you'd need a primary cause to set this into motion. The universe follows Renaissance and modern philosophy in the fact it is a well ordered, well made clock, wound up and set in motion. Though I would disagree and believe, hope that the divine clock maker might occasioanlly treak the watch so it functions a little better in small ways beneficial to mankind.

Another musing is the relationship between man, the body, and God. The bible says we are created in God's image. Not in the physical sense, but in the spiritual sense. Man's mind and body reflect on the soul, so even if one or the other is impared, or even both, it does not directly impact or impair the soul and its final worth. The body/mind are not perfect, but the soul is a more perfect reflection of the two and one's being. From this analogy one could speculate the universe in its sum existence is the physical reflection of God's existence.

Another point to give rise to the existence of God is what we call natural law and for a more concrete example, the unalienable rights which the framing of our constitution protects- life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, which were bestowed by their creator. If only ordained by a higher power could those rights exist, for a will of the masses or majority, or those holding power could just as easily take them away. For those rights, which I can say we hold true or wish to hold true, to exist and endure, some guiding moral force or power must work to maintain those. This again would support that God is A) existing B) A good force on our side and C) Active in this physical reality.

Not a complete thesis, but I hope this answers a few questions and provokes a few ideas.

 

[kurchatovium]

I believe the answer lies in the Bible itself (I know its an odd place to look for questions about God 😉 )

" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and last." - The New Testament, The Revelation Of St. John The Divine 22:13

To me this says as was stated previously that God is more or less an immortal timeless being. Beyond the comprhension of us mere mortals.

Perhaps it is as Stephen Hawking said "If we can figure out why it is we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph in human reasoning for then we should know the mind of God.".

For now I believe since we are now where near understanding this that faith and science are very separate entities. I forsee a time when our knowledge is perhaps as great as Dr. Hawking has said. At that point I believe knowledge and faith will become one. A new age will then be upon us. 😀 Oh well back to marmalade. 😀

 

[JoBelle]

Though I appreciate the bible references, I have to say that they do little good for my answering my question about the formation of the deity. I'm not a believer of the Judao/Christian book, or creator.

That being said, my belief in God shall continue. I just have to get used to the idea that anymore than that....just won't be practical knowledge! LOL

J.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

jobelle, you have piqued my curiosity

i ask this with all respect, and absolutly zero malice or sarcasm.
you state you don't believe in the "judao/christian book, or creator".
please share with me your views, either here, or via p.m.
thanks.

steve

 

[JoBelle]

No problem Steveo~!
I'll PM you.
Jo

 

[Battousai]

Well, I suppose God is someone or something outside of the FOUR dimensions we exist in. We have height, length, width and finally, time. Some people seem to find this concept difficult, so here's the theory in as simple terms as are possible:

Imagine a bucket filled with water. Now, imagine that the surface of the water is our reality, our dimensional plane. Things on higher or lower dimensions than this reality (Lets say, above the water is where spirits are, the astral planes, and below the surface of the water is something is). Now, take your hand, and imagine it's God. Put God -- uh, your hand, into the water. NOW, there is a certain point of your hand that is touching the surface of the water, while the rest of your hand is either above or below the water! So you can imagine, that if there were people existing in the area of the surface of the water, they would be able to see a small portion of your hand -- they don't have any knowledge of what is above and below the thin water surface.

In short, what I'm saying is, my favorite explination of God is that there is a certain amount of his/her presense in our world -- a small portion of his endlessness that is in forms we as 4 dimensional beings can understand. Everything else is beyond our mental comprehension.

 

[kurchatovium]

Pity the bible is a heck of a good book in my opinion once you get pass the metaphors and such. Of course Stephen Hawking's books are pretty good too in my opinion. 😀 😀

 

[JoBelle]

LOL...I love all of these explanations~!

I agree Kurtch. the Bible and many other religious texts are wonderful! They are full of life lessons that would be hard to condemn. Along with many that I'd rather not see repeated for that matter! For example, the Ten Commandments. Regardless of your religious stance, those are some good hard and fast social rules that if followed would keep a lot of folks out of trouble and away from a lot of pain!

Too back there isn't a book called, "The one written before men decided they knew Me" by God.

🙂
It's all very good food for thought. I like hearing the pre-religious explanations. (For lack of a better description.)

Funny how there are so many that mirror each other here! Love that!
J.

 

[BigJim]

You are God!

Don't question....just believe.

Quite a dangerous philosophy Laz, it can lead one to be very easilly betrayed and deceived. (Not the willingness to believe, that's a GREAT plus in a person; I meant the "Don't question" bit.)

The being that most people refer to as "God", is in my opinion, the one who led a race of "people" known by various names such as the Watchers, the Elohim, the Annunaki and the Ennead. In my opinion this race of people/beings/etc were the ones who got their arses kicked by the real "God" in the conflict that so many religious writings contain small bits of.

So who, or what, is God in my book? Everything is energy vibrating on different frequencies and at different speeds. Nothing is solid, everything exists as a part of everything else. Things like human souls are the heaviest concentration of intangible energy in this particular sphere of existence. The heaviest concentration of all, resides on the highest (and purest) frequency, and contains a sentience that the human imagination just couldn't comprehend at this stage of evolution. This Source of all energy is the wellspring from which all good inspiration comes and is the font of all unconditional love. As each human soul is a part of it, we can each draw energy from it. The higher the vibration of the human being, the better able they are to "channel" the energy. great feats of humanity, the ability to heal... all spring from a soul that is capable of channelling higher energy than someone else.

So all is connected to everything else, including God/the Force/the Source/the Oversoul. Which essentially means that we are all "God". There is not a person here who could not become a saint-like figure if they put enough effort into it. Difficult certainly, but not impossible.


This puts a rather new slant on the old saying, "Satan's greatest deception was convincing the human race that he didn't exist." In my opinion Satan's greatest deception was inventing religions and calling himself God. I think it's only possible for someone to rise that high if they let go of all the negative emotions like fear, guilt, sadness, bitterness and the desire to control the thoughts of others. One thing all religions have in common is every single one of the aforementioned emotions and a desire to dominate others.



So the possibilities for every single person in this world are LIMITLESS!!! If the mind can conceive something, the body can achieve it, because YOU (including that guy at the back trying not to be noticed) ARE GOD and there is nothing that God cannot achieve! You want to do or achieve something? Get of your arse and go out and pull that thing towards you!