Whoop that kid's ass, dammit! (long read and rant)

[BellaRisa]

I disagree. I'm not chronically angry and I've solved plenty of problems without my fists.

As well as an assload of other folks who were spanked/physically disciplined as kids.

Oh good lord, this is not about you. And I'm not talking about the occasional spanking and you know that. I'm talking specifically about the type of behavior described in the OP; breaking that child's toy and someone other than the primary parent 'cracking his ass'. My point of view is coming what I learned about styles of discipline and the long term affects on both individuals and society at large while I was earning my degree in child psychology/human development and teaching preschool for 21 yrs *and* raising two children, but hey, what do I know?

 

[BlackestLily]

No one on this board can convince me that a three year old doesn't know that swinging a hockey stick can't hurt someone.

Oh I won't disagree with the fact he knew he was doing SOMETHING. Children have a mischievious humor in them. Perhaps slapstick (har har) would be the best way to put it. I think if you don't go about speaking the right way to the child, it's as if saying it's a little game. You've seen it before. When a child is doing something they shouldn't do, you say, "Beeettterr not dooo that!" They smile a little and continue. They want to play, they want you to get them, and they want a chase.

I very much doubt the child consulted in his own head, "I'm gonna whack this dude in the nuts to make sure it hurts." It was probably more like, "What happens when I do this? Now what's he going to do? Now what?" I don't think children at such a young time are so vindictive that they plan pain or schemes. His brain is not advanced enough for this yet. I read somewhere that children don't even develop empathy until they are 5 or so.

I have never been an advocate for hitting children as I've seen too many examples of it not being beneficial. My friend spanks her little boy who is 3. She also hits him on the mouth if he says something she doesn't like. Now when he gets frustrated and doesn't know how to express himself, he LITERALLY starts punching himself in the face. And then slaps himself for another few minutes. She laughs it off, but I don't believe a child hitting himself is any sort of healthy behavior. And now when he's upset he hits her on the arm. He knows now when she's upset it's what she does, so in his mind apparently it's just what you do.

I am an advocate for disciplining and punishment. You do a child no favors by allowing them to continue behaviors that are not appropriate. I just feel that corporal punishment is not something I would personally choose. I believe a more appropriate choice would be for the parents to have told the child no in a firm manner with regards to his actions. If he continued, remove the item and say, "We said no. You still did it. You cannot have this now." Keep it short and simple. Let the child throw the tantrum. Unfortunately in this case the parents did not intervene. Perhaps the person who was being hit should have asked the parents to do something, or like Redmage said, simply remove the item.

 

[BellaRisa]

Oh I won't disagree with the fact he knew he was doing SOMETHING. Children have a mischievious humor in them. Perhaps slapstick (har har) would be the best way to put it. I think if you don't go about speaking the right way to the child, it's as if saying it's a little game. You've seen it before. When a child is doing something they shouldn't do, you say, "Beeettterr not dooo that!" They smile a little and continue. They want to play, they want you to get them, and they want a chase.

I very much doubt the child consulted in his own head, "I'm gonna whack this dude in the nuts to make sure it hurts." It was probably more like, "What happens when I do this? Now what's he going to do? Now what?" I don't think children at such a young time are so vindictive that they plan pain or schemes. His brain is not advanced enough for this yet. I read somewhere that children don't even develop empathy until they are 5 or so.

I have never been an advocate for hitting children as I've seen too many examples of it not being beneficial. My friend spanks her little boy who is 3. She also hits him on the mouth if he says something she doesn't like. Now when he gets frustrated and doesn't know how to express himself, he LITERALLY starts punching himself in the face. And then slaps himself for another few minutes. She laughs it off, but I don't believe a child hitting himself is any sort of healthy behavior. And now when he's upset he hits her on the arm. He knows now when she's upset it's what she does, so in his mind apparently it's just what you do.

I am an advocate for disciplining and punishment. You do a child no favors by allowing them to continue behaviors that are not appropriate. I just feel that corporal punishment is not something I would personally choose. I believe a more appropriate choice would be for the parents to have told the child no in a firm manner with regards to his actions. If he continued, remove the item and say, "We said no. You still did it. You cannot have this now." Keep it short and simple. Let the child throw the tantrum. Unfortunately in this case the parents did not intervene. Perhaps the person who was being hit should have asked the parents to do something, or like Redmage said, simply remove the item.

Common sense and non-violent problem solving. My god.

 

[Skipadeedoodah]

There's never going to be a consensus on whether or not spanking kids is right/necessary/okay/violent/abuse or whatever else you can come up with. I think the point the OP was trying to make was that the parents of this particular child let him exhibit this type of behavior extremely frequently, and they aren't teaching him that his behavior is inappropriate.

 

[BlackestLily]

There's never going to be a consensus on whether or not spanking kids is right/necessary/okay/violent/abuse or whatever else you can come up with. I think the point the OP was trying to make was that the parents of this particular child let him exhibit this type of behavior extremely frequently, and they aren't teaching him that his behavior is inappropriate.

Yes, and then listed the steps taken to show reaction against said behavior and ask what we believe/our opinions about it. I can't help but think the two intersect when he asks for whether or not it's justified as he suggested "cracking him on the ass".

 

[slacker2114]

Ok, a few points of clarification seem to be needed here. And I, in no way, hold anything against any of you who disagree with my side of it. You all make valid points on your side of it. However, some other points need to be made clear.

1) The parents almost always turn a blind eye to what the kid does unless it's being done to them. I've witnessed this time and time again. It even got to the point where I'd say "are you going to let him keep that up?" to which I'd get the reply "no, he's gonna go for a nap soon if he doesn't stop". And that was it. The kid continued what he was doing and the parents blocked it out.

2) This kid has more toys than a little bit, including 2 other hockey sticks. Now I'm not saying it's ok to break one because he has back-ups, but the stick getting broken is really not depriving him of anything. Plus, the shock of it getting broken seemed to have driven home the point that he was doing wrong as he did not go for another stick, which was lying nearby, and continue what he was doing.

3) The kid is like a nephew to me. I love him dearly, as he does me. He is not, and never has been, afraid of me or my brother. And after the little incident I mentioned, he seems to have a measure of respect for me, or as much as a 3 year old can have anyway. Or he at least learned where the boundary lies with me and doesn't push it. He'll push his parents endlessly and anyone else for that matter, but not me.

I didn't intend for this to become a "abuse vs. discipline" argument because everyone has their own belief on the matter and it's very seldom anyone on either side will bend on the issue, myself included. I just wanted to know who was more in the right on the matter of the OP.

Thank you all for your responses on the subject.

 

[Skipadeedoodah]

Yes, and then listed the steps taken to show reaction against said behavior and ask what we believe/our opinions about it. I can't help but think the two intersect when he asks for whether or not it's justified as he suggested "cracking him on the ass".

Sure. I'm not arguing against giving opinions, as that's exactly what he asked for 🙂 I just think it might be more productive to keep this particular kid and his reported tendancy to repeat this behavior in mind. Any and every child is going to push his or her limits. It's natural, and you can't fault the child OR the parents for that. My point is simply that these parents need to take SOME steps to discipline their child. Physical or not is their choice, as long as it's effective. Telling your company, "he's going to go for a nap soon if he doesn't stop it," and leaving it at that is not discipline, and it's clearly not effective.

 

[BlackestLily]

Ok, a few points of clarification seem to be needed here. And I, in no way, hold anything against any of you who disagree with my side of it. You all make valid points on your side of it. However, some other points need to be made clear.

1) The parents almost always turn a blind eye to what the kid does unless it's being done to them. I've witnessed this time and time again. It even got to the point where I'd say "are you going to let him keep that up?" to which I'd get the reply "no, he's gonna go for a nap soon if he doesn't stop". And that was it. The kid continued what he was doing and the parents blocked it out.

2) This kid has more toys than a little bit, including 2 other hockey sticks. Now I'm not saying it's ok to break one because he has back-ups, but the stick getting broken is really not depriving him of anything. Plus, the shock of it getting broken seemed to have driven home the point that he was doing wrong as he did not go for another stick, which was lying nearby, and continue what he was doing.

3) The kid is like a nephew to me. I love him dearly, as he does me. He is not, and never has been, afraid of me or my brother. And after the little incident I mentioned, he seems to have a measure of respect for me, or as much as a 3 year old can have anyway. Or he at least learned where the boundary lies with me and doesn't push it. He'll push his parents endlessly and anyone else for that matter, but not me.

I didn't intend for this to become a "abuse vs. discipline" argument because everyone has their own belief on the matter and it's very seldom anyone on either side will bend on the issue, myself included. I just wanted to know who was more in the right on the matter of the OP.

Thank you all for your responses on the subject.

1. Yes. It is unfortunate when children don't have the example set for them and are taught by their parents. Sometimes people become lax, and when being given advice about their child from someone who isn't a parent, they tend to dismiss it no matter how badly it is needed. The kid will grow up hopefully learning that he will be responsible for his actions. But it's a process. And many people as adults still need to go through that journey. In my thoughts, it's simply unrealistic to expect everything right away from a child. But if you're making points, then yes. It would have been infuriating to witness parents taking this course of action.

2. I don't think it's so much the act of depriving a toy from a child simply as it's....he took a toy from a 3 year old and broke it. I think other kids did that to me when I was 3 and so were they. I wouldn't dream of having a friend's child prod and hit me with something and having my natural reaction be to take their things and destroy them. Simply take them until they learn the appropriate usage.

3. I don't question your affection for him. It's clear you seem to show care and concern. We simply hold two different viewpoints in what that entitles in the matters of discipline. I admire the fact you have even asked. One thing I've noticed is how dearly people hold onto their beliefs in manners like this, in so much so, that they won't even ask what people think because they don't care. Clearly some part of the incident rang with you wrong for you to feel the need to come here and tell your story. I appreciate the chance for discussion in this subject.

 

[BlackestLily]

My point is simply that these parents need to take SOME steps to discipline their child.

Yes, I agree, just not with the steps that were apparently taken.

 

[Deleted member 66627]

Oh good lord, this is not about you. And I'm not talking about the occasional spanking and you know that. I'm talking specifically about the type of behavior described in the OP; breaking that child's toy and someone other than the primary parent 'cracking his ass'. My point of view is coming what I learned about styles of discipline and the long term affects on both individuals and society at large while I was earning my degree in child psychology/human development and teaching preschool for 21 yrs *and* raising two children, but hey, what do I know?

You're right it's not. However, the only solid opinion I can lay a claim to is my own.

I'm not discrediting your skill by any means. This isn't about us, remember?

I was pulling directly from this quote:

I am SO tired of grown people thinking hitting a little kid is in any way beneficial in the long term;

Not the entirety of your post.

 

[BellaRisa]

You're right it's not. However, the only solid opinion I can lay a claim to is my own.

This isn't about us, remember?

Attempting to use my words against me is ill advised. I brought up my experience specifically because of your needless mention of the "assload of other folks who were spanked/physically disciplined as kids" as though that changes the proven results for the umpteen people who were physically disciplined and were emotionally damaged by it, and went on the damage others. As for that direct quote, I stand by it and it goes back to what I just said: while it's lovely that there are people who were hit as children and didn't go on to hit other people, there are still much better non-violent discipline methods and I don't think anyone can really deny that and call themselves intelligent. Now having said all that, I agree that this thread isn't about whether hitting children is a good thing, so I'm done other than private message 🙂

 

[GodlessTickler]

I harp on this all the time in real life, and I'm sure you'll see It in other threads because its my new pet peve but check it out anyway...
when you are talking about variation in groups (spanking causes violent behavior, smoking causes cancer, lead based paint is bad for you ect.) anticdotal stories about indeviduals are essentially meaningless and show a massive lack of understanding.
That is why the following are ALL worthless comments
'my grandmother smoked every day of her life and she never got lung cancer'
'Lots of kids had lead based paint in their cribs and they didn't all die from it'
'Me and all my family got our asses beat and we turned out fine'
Grandma not getting cancer dosen't make cigarettes health suplements.
The fact that lead based paint dosen't have a 100 percent mortality rate.
And how you or any other relitivly small group of people (including 'everyone I know') turned out after spanking...i not meaningfull when talking about the broader concept of how spanking affects children.
Statistical varriation in groups, and varriation in indeviduals are different things, if you mix them up you get rediculous results.

 

[Deleted member 66627]

Attempting to use my words against me is ill advised. I brought up my experience specifically because of your needless mention of the "assload of other folks who were spanked/physically disciplined as kids" as though that changes the proven results for the umpteen people who were physically disciplined and were emotionally damaged by it, and went on the damage others. As for that direct quote, I stand by it and it goes back to what I just said: while it's lovely that there are people who were hit as children and didn't go on to hit other people, there are still much better non-violent discipline methods and I don't think anyone can really deny that and call themselves intelligent. Now having said all that, I agree that this thread isn't about whether hitting children is a good thing, so I'm done other than private message 🙂

I apologize that you feel it was a needless contribution.

And of course there are "non-violent discipline methods", but sometimes a good crack is all that is needed.

 

[BellaRisa]

I apologize that you feel it was a needless contribution.

And of course there are "non-violent discipline methods", but sometimes a good crack is all that is needed.

Or you can take more than two seconds to raise your child. Let's take it to PM if you'd care to continue.

 

[meangry]

Or you can take more than two seconds to raise your child. Let's take it to PM if you'd care to continue.

Didn't know someone had the market curbed on child rearing. If you wish to continue being sanctimonious with your considered "non-harmful" approach to raising children, you are more than entitled. I am sure Jo's approach is absolutely horrible...what with the scars from metal coat hangers and all that.

Dare I ask, have you ever heard of classical conditioning? Sometimes, the best way to make someone not misbehave is the threat of an action which is quite unpleasant. Maybe if you took two more seconds, you could realize this.

 

[BellaRisa]

Didn't know someone had the market curbed on child rearing. If you wish to continue being sanctimonious with your considered "non-harmful" approach to raising children, you are more than entitled. I am sure Jo's approach is absolutely horrible...what with the scars from metal coat hangers and all that.

Dare I ask, have you ever heard of classical conditioning? Sometimes, the best way to make someone not misbehave is the threat of an action which is quite unpleasant. Maybe if you took two more seconds, you could realize this.

I have indeed heard of classical conditioning, in fact I wrote a paper on it in the '90's; it works well on lab rats and young chimps but I prefer to take a little more time and patience when teaching tiny humans, I'm quirky that way. And this is off topic, PM if you'd like to justify hitting little children.

 

[meangry]

I have indeed heard of classical conditioning, in fact I wrote a paper on it in the '90's; it works well on lab rats and young chimps but I prefer to take a little more time and patience when teaching tiny humans, I'm quirky that way. And this is off topic, PM if you'd like to justify hitting little children.

And I've used Pavlovian theory in academic research projects in the 00's. If my post was off topic, then any single post you made involving how your method of child rearing transcends all others is as well. Perhaps this opinion makes me quirky as well.

 

[BellaRisa]

And I've used Pavlovian theory in academic research projects in the 00's. If my post was off topic, then any single post you made involving how your method of child rearing transcends all others is as well. Perhaps this opinion makes me quirky as well.

Raising children using Pavlov's Theory would indeed make you a bit quirky, but after all it did work on dogs and other animals right? Seriously though, this is the last time I'll address you on this in this thread, please take it to PM if you'd care to continue being pompous and putting words in my mouth

 

[meangry]

Raising children using Pavlov's Theory would indeed make you a bit quirky, but after all it did work on dogs and other animals right? Seriously though, this is the last time I'll address you on this in this thread, please take it to PM if you'd care to continue being pompous and putting words in my mouth

Isn't putting words in your mouth a fruitless endeavor? I mean, if someone wishes to use your words against you, they 'will be proven erroneous' regardless of whether the words themselves are founded upon a concrete foundation or on the shaky one expressed earlier in this thread. If you had done well with your paper, and read Pavlov and the research afterwards, you would understand that your assessment that it works well only on lab rats and young chimps is merely a veneer; a statement made by someone who is trying to come off as smarter on the given topic than they truly are. In this instance, we can use Classical Condition as an abstraction, rather than in an absolute manner as was expressed in Pavlov's hypothesis.

A misbehaving child has no fear for repercussions because sternly telling it no very loudly has no effect. This child will do this action again, or perhaps more severe actions in the future. If the child does physical harm to other children, and telling it sternly 'NO' does nothing, then what means do you have to ensure the child does not harm others?

A spanking presents unpleasantness to the actions the child takes. Some children are born submissive and let their parents tug them along by the wrist. Others are hellians, and the way to deal with them is to make them fear the repercussions of misbehavior.

This is not to say any singular method of child rearing is inherently better than others. This is to say that most have a place, have uses which present results and produce healthy citizens. It is when you present absolutism where problems arise.

Now you can call me pompous all you desire, but I will take that for what it is worth given the reality of what is presented here.

 

[slacker2114]

Can we please just stick to the topic at hand? This isn't about theory and Pavlov and conditioning. I'm only asking an opinion on the incident.

 

[venray]

I still think that discipline is up to the parent to perform not an "uncle" or friend or anyone else. If the parent refuses to take responsibility then it is time for you (slacker and bro) to walk away...perhaps then the parents will learn a needed lesson as well as the kid...

I have broken and confiscated many a toy of my son's over the years..

What I find most effective is making my son give the object in question away to someone who knows what it is supposed to be used for...not broken, but also not his any more...

As for breaking something, it is the parents job to decide that no one elses...so bro should buy him a new stick and walk away until the parents learn to control their child...

As for spankings, they never really work and they make the parent feel worse than the child.... (my humble opinion)....though a loud yell tends to work fairly well in our house....

 

[Redmage]

Common sense and non-violent problem solving. My god.

Oh, there's a few of us posting here.

This isn't about theory and Pavlov and conditioning. I'm only asking an opinion on the incident.

You've gotten lots of those. However it's a bit stilted to offer an opinion on the incident without explaining how one arrives at the opinion. So whether you knew it or not, you also asked about theory.

 

[Sultrybrunette]

I do not believe that doing something to a kid to punish that kid for doing the same thing is very intelligent. You are trying to break the kid out of the habit of hitting by hitting him? Breaking the stick was a bit excessive but I can see the frustration. Discipline doesn't help if the parents/other adults show the same tendencies no matter what your disciplining them for. Saying that, I don't think he should have to buy a new stick. Just the fact that the mother was demanding a new one instead of dealing with the consequences of why it was broken in the first place, says alot. Honestly, I think the kid needs to have a physical evaluation to see why he is so hyper/violent. And where did he learn it from anyway? Its not something babies are born to know. Someone around him had to be hitting to show him how to do it and that its alright. That just goes to show you have to be very careful about what you do around kids, no matter whos they are.