Why is it not ok to hit a girl part 2

[Cosmo_ac]

I've decided to follow up on my first post, as it went surprisingly well and civil despite the nature of the topic. One of the things I noted was that it seemed that (if memory serves me right) many of the people felt it was ok (though most expressed the opinion that you generally shouldn't start hitting people period) given the right circumstances, and these were almost unnanimously when the girl starts throwing first. So basically, it was ok for a guy to hit a girl in self defence. A fair enough answer I think.

However, for the purpose of further discussion, let us remove the prospect of self-defense for this discussion and talk about hitting women from a different prospective. That perspective being that, essentially, they had it comming. And just to be clear, this discussion isn't about spousal abuse.

Now, before too many people get too excited, let me try and clarify what i'm talking about. What i'm talking about are the actions that another guy might do to prevoke a person to hit them. For example, look at this clip from the movie "The way of the gun".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=66xK8fw1qc0&NR=1

Pretty crazy huh? Now, if I was walking downtown, and I saw a guy go off on another guy the way Sarah Silverman went off on these guys, I'd be shocked if a fight didn't break out. Now everybody has their own level of what they will take before a confrontation goes from verble to physical. Hell, some people refuse to get into a physical confrontation period (unless perhaps in a life threatening situation). However, if as a person you feel you do have a limit to where your willing to get physical, do you apply that same limit to women, and if you do, or don't, why not? Or, perhaps the better question is should the same limit be set for women as it is for men? Discuss, and please keep it civil, as discussions on violence should be 😀

 

[GQguy]

Hmmmm. It's not ok to hit women in my book. But she deserved to get her ass kicked. I wouldn't have let it get past the first punch if I were a spectator.

GQ

 

[Bothersome]

I'm going to keep the same position as I did in my last post.

I don't know whether it should be considered 'wrong' or 'right' to hit a woman, as the situation could very well call for it... but I know the reasons why I personally wouldn't hit one unless there was absolutely no other option.

1: My culture has branded into my brain from a very young age that hitting women is wrong, and that it should be an absolute last resort.
2: Men (generally) tend to have a physical advantage over women.

 

[Soda Bobinski]

 

[Angel_2]

For as annoying as she was I still didn't see a reason to hit her. be the bigger person and walk away, now if she touches him all bets are off. Otherwise no don't hit a women

 

[GQguy]

I am curious though to hear the argument as to why it's ok for that women to provoke a man in that manner and not warrant any repercussions? Why does she deserve such restraint?

The men that made that rule "don't hit women" didn't live with such women.

Devil's advocate.

GQ

 

[falcon]

For as annoying as she was I still didn't see a reason to hit her. be the bigger person and walk away, now if she touches him all bets are off. Otherwise no don't hit a women

Agreed 100%. In my line of work, I get called every name in the book and some names that haven't made it in to the book yet. But at the end of the day, they're simply words. At the end of the day, when I'm walking out the gate, I don't even remember who called me what. When and if it gets physical is a completely different story. On the inside, I have ways of dealing with it that are "allowed and prescribed" ways of doing so. I can't pummel someone, male or female, because they start flipping their shit. On the outside, as long as I can articulate why I had to hit someone (most likely multiple times), male or female, I'm good to go. But I don't advocate hitting anyone unless it's brought upon you first.

 

[Bothersome]

I am curious though to hear the argument as to why it's ok for that women to provoke a man in that manner and not warrant any repercussions? Why does she deserve such restraint?

The men that made that rule "don't hit women" didn't live with such women.

Devil's advocate.

GQ

I don't think a woman should deserve any more restraint than a man.

You should probably put in a great deal of restraint from hitting either, but I don't think one gender deserves it anymore than the other.

 

[milagros317]

For as annoying as she was I still didn't see a reason to hit her. be the bigger person and walk away, now if she touches him all bets are off. Otherwise no don't hit a women

This. Walk away. If she follows and tries to stop you, putting hands on you, then punch her in the face, as hard as you can.

 

[maniactickler]

I could never punch a woman unless she was coming at me with a weapon. if shes out of control, id just try restraining her, or at worst, give her a bitch slap.

 

[Bohemianne]

😀

Obviously, it's not okay to hit a woman (in front of a big crowd like that). Just look at how men are vengeful to his fellow kind. They hit him more than ten-folds in return...

 

[TMF Jeff]

In the way of the gun, what he was supposed to do is punch the boyfriend.

 

[Deleted member 66627]

"With great power comes great responsibility."

Now then my friends we have, "Batman Logic"
Now I would lay a beatdown on any woman or man who is trying to seriously injure somebody. There's a difference between just fighting and trying to really hurt somebody.

I'll try to break up any fight whether it's a man on man or woman on woman WITHOUT actually hurting somebody. Fights should just be avoided in general. Self defense; or what I like to call "Batman Logic" is the only exception I'd make where I would intervene for anybody who is being abused, regardless of gender.

Hope that all made sense to somebody.

All that made sense is mixing Spiderman Movie/Comic Quotes (REGARDLESS OF ORIGINAL CREATION IT IS STILL A SPIDERMAN QUOTE) and Batman Logic.

It makes me wanna punch YOU in the face.

 

[Deleted member 66627]

I BLOCK punches with my face!

LOL. YES. GENIUS. <33

 

[natural tickler]

no it is not ok to hit a lady..but when the circumstances come...


Pow!!! right to the moon

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Not to sound sexist or big headed, but in general most men are just stronger beings than most women (with some pretty awesome exceptions). But the logical reason to not strike a woman to me is it's simply too bully-like to strike something that's weaker than you.
If this woman you want to hit was actually stronger than you, a black belt, or a big man...you would walk away or just not hit the person; unless you wanted to get your butt kicked.
But the point is, you'd only consider hitting the woman because you know that you're stronger and bigger and far less likely to get your ass handed to you.

SOme people would walk away if a person was of the size that they would have a fight on there hands. Others wouldn't. People who are trained in combat don't tend to walk around wearing their blackbelts, so one can never know just how dangerous a person is simply from looking at them (save perhaps extreme cases where they are a parapalegic or the like). However, on the subject of bullying, you don't need to be physically large to bully a person. You can be of many shapes and sizes to verbally bully a person, and while not as obvious as physical bullying, verble bullying has certainly been shown over the years through studies to be just as damaging, if not worse, then physical bullying.

It's just the more enlightened and responsible thing to do; NOT striking a woman OR a man for that matter. To be quite frank...if you gotta HIT somebody because they'd offended you, it's either because they're right, you're too ape-like to not deal with the situation like a civilized human, or you can't think of any good verbal comeback and resort to violence.

Not all men and women are created equal. Some have gifted minds, some gifted bodies, some both, and some neither. If a particulerly intelegent person verbally cuts up somebody who is not gifted enough to keep up the pace, is it wrong to blame them for using a physical gift to fight back with? IMO, while it might not be really right to hit a person (And just like anything, with violence there are also degrees), once you cross a certain line, you are essentialy telling a person it is on. You are no longer acting civil, and in this case, expecting a person to simply remain civil, and take it, behind the defence that if they were to defend themselves, it would lower them, I find questionable. There was a time when a fight of fists was quiet civil and conducted amongst gentlemen, unless i'm mistaken. Now, there was certain unspoken rules involved, ie, usually it was a stand up fight (much like boxing) where if a person yielded, the fight was over. It was violent, but at the same time civil.

GQguy
I am curious though to hear the argument as to why it's ok for that women to provoke a man in that manner and not warrant any repercussions? Why does she deserve such restraint?

The men that made that rule "don't hit women" didn't live with such women.

Devil's advocate.

GQ

Fair question GQ.

In the way of the gun, what he was supposed to do is punch the boyfriend.

Why was he supposed to do that?

Well, granted, it was the boyfriend who asked if the blonde guy wanted to fight, however, i don't think we should ignore the considerable amount of fuel to the fire the girlfriend added (i can't hear it clearly, but it deffinitly seemed like she was telling her boyfriend to go pick a fight with the guy after the blonde guy responded to her verble comments).

 

[Helena]

I've been mulling this over, and now I'll post.

I think it's wise to not try and settle my arguments by hitting guys. Usually, if I'm totally furious I have other tools in my arsenal to get my point across.

If I punch a man with a closed fist ready to throw down, I better be ready for whatever happens. I've never done that, however.

 

[TMF Jeff]

Why was he supposed to do that?

Well, granted, it was the boyfriend who asked if the blonde guy wanted to fight, however, i don't think we should ignore the considerable amount of fuel to the fire the girlfriend added (i can't hear it clearly, but it deffinitly seemed like she was telling her boyfriend to go pick a fight with the guy after the blonde guy responded to her verble comments).

Reason #1) Girls are fragile.

"I only hit the girl one time," says the man accused of punching a woman so hard that she fell backwards on her head and went into a coma during a fight over a parking space.

http://gothamist.com/2011/03/07/man_who_put_woman_in_coma_over_park.php

Reason #2) Most men are going to be bigger and stronger than most women. It's the equivalent of hitting a child.

Reason #3) It's the universal standard of honorable, masculine behavior. Observe the way the crowd reacts when this guy smacks the girl. The reason they all react simultaneously, with the exact same agenda, is that they all know the same thing without having to talk about it.

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And the reason you hit the boyfriend instead, is that he's there. He's sort of understood to be her chaperon, and in certain circumstances like a physical fight, is considered to be responsible for her. If he doesn't want to fight, it's up to him to shut her up, or take her by the arm and drag her away.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Sorry, meant to respond earlier.

Reason #1) Girls are fragile.

I don't think women are the delicate butterfly wings that a lot of people assume they are. The incident in question that you linked was a freak accident more then anything, caused by the hitting of the back of her head, and not the being punched. It could have just as easily have happened to a guy. Hell, I have a friend whose uncle died after banging the back of his head in his house. He bent over and when he stood back up, he hit the back of his head on a cubard or something like that. The fact is, the back of the head is a very dangerous place to hit. Thats why it's against the rules in MMA and boxing to hit people there, as a rule.

As for the frialty of women, While I can see the arguement, I don't agree with it. Yes, women do have less muscle mass then men. However, they also have a greater pain tolerance then men. Genetics asside though, look at many of the occupations women hold around the world. They are police officers, fire fighters, soldirs, marines (somebody correct me if i'm wrong on that last one), Serve as active duty soldiers in israel, professional boxers, MMA fighters, and a variety of others. None of these strike me as "Weak" occupations.

Reason #2) Most men are going to be bigger and stronger than most women. It's the equivalent of hitting a child.

But women arent children. They are adults, fully responsible for their behaviour with all of the rights that come with being an adult. Because of that, they need to take responsibility for their actions.

Reason #3) It's the universal standard of honorable, masculine behavior. Observe the way the crowd reacts when this guy smacks the girl. The reason they all react simultaneously, with the exact same agenda, is that they all know the same thing without having to talk about it.

I disagree. If anything it's a cultural, learned behaviour, one that probably didn't exist more then a hundred or so years ago. The reason these people react the way they do, is because they are products of that learned behaviour, not because there is some sort of universal standard. I think I posted it on the other thread, but I showed how historically, it was very acceptable in the west to beat your wife, until I think it was the last hundred years or so, where it started to get looked at as a criminal subject as oposed to a marriage related issue. If you go around the world (or hell, just look in the right places in western America) you'll find cultures were it's ok to hit your wives and daughters. Had the incident in the video taken place there, nobody probably would have blinked an eye.

And the reason you hit the boyfriend instead, is that he's there. He's sort of understood to be her chaperon, and in certain circumstances like a physical fight, is considered to be responsible for her. If he doesn't want to fight, it's up to him to shut her up, or take her by the arm and drag her away.

See, here's the problem I see with this. In this day and age, women are expected to speak out. Hell, they are encouraged to say there piece. Part of being an independent, liberated women, or something like that. And hey, thats ok. I mean, freedom of speach and all of that. Heres the thing though, and I think another guy on the ther thread put it so perfectly when he commented on something a female friend said to him when he talked to her about the subject, to which she said "Girls don't know the rules". Now, this to me makes sense. Like I said, girls have only really been encouraged to speak freely for a while now by contrast. They might not quiet get it yet, and by "it" i mean the fact that free speach isn't free.

I think most, if not all guys know that when they get into a heated arguement, whatever they say could result in fists starting to be thrown, and they also know the more insulting things they say, the more likely it will result in a physical confrontation. You know that if you tell the guy your argueing with that you just fucked his mother last night, theres a chance he's going to take offence and swing a fist.

I don't think it's right that the guy has to fight the fight that the girlfriend/wife picked. granted, I feel conflicted because you want to protect the person your with, but I don't know if your doing her any favors (or yourself) for fighting everybody she starts shit with. And while you could pull her away and whatnot, she is still a full grown women and is not likely to take that shit well. Of course, then would be a great time to kick her ass to the curb, I suppose.

 

[TMF Jeff]

I don't think women are the delicate butterfly wings that a lot of people assume they are. The incident in question that you linked was a freak accident more then anything, caused by the hitting of the back of her head, and not the being punched. It could have just as easily have happened to a guy. Hell, I have a friend whose uncle died after banging the back of his head in his house. He bent over and when he stood back up, he hit the back of his head on a cubard or something like that. The fact is, the back of the head is a very dangerous place to hit. Thats why it's against the rules in MMA and boxing to hit people there, as a rule.

As for the frialty of women, While I can see the arguement, I don't agree with it. Yes, women do have less muscle mass then men. However, they also have a greater pain tolerance then men. Genetics asside though, look at many of the occupations women hold around the world. They are police officers, fire fighters, soldirs, marines (somebody correct me if i'm wrong on that last one), Serve as active duty soldiers in israel, professional boxers, MMA fighters, and a variety of others. None of these strike me as "Weak" occupations.

You're completely mistaken about this.

As a result, gross measures of body strength suggest an average 40-50% difference in upper body strength between the sexes as a result of this difference, and a 20-30% difference in lower body strength

Males, on average, have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans#Skeleton_and_muscular_system

You taking a punch is nothing like a girl taking a punch.

As for professions that require toughness, why do you think they don't have women and men who are boxers or mma fighters fighting together in the same weight class? It's because all other things being equal between two people (height, weight, training) a man is far more physically dangerous than a woman. To some degree that can be overcome, which is why women participate in these professions, but for example, the largest and strongest man in the world, is ridiculously larger and stronger than his equivelent among women. We're evolutionarily designed to be warriors, and they're evolutionarily designed to be mothers. I really don't understand how you can fail to see that.

But women arent children. They are adults, fully responsible for their behaviour with all of the rights that come with being an adult. Because of that, they need to take responsibility for their actions.

I think you're sort of applying a double standard here because further down you argue that women don't understand the situation as clearly as a man would. But I do take your point, and I don't entirely disagree with it. If this thread were "Why aren't men allowed to spank women when they act like children," I'd be on your side. But a punch is a whole other order of physicality.

I disagree. If anything it's a cultural, learned behaviour, one that probably didn't exist more then a hundred or so years ago. The reason these people react the way they do, is because they are products of that learned behaviour, not because there is some sort of universal standard. I think I posted it on the other thread, but I showed how historically, it was very acceptable in the west to beat your wife, until I think it was the last hundred years or so, where it started to get looked at as a criminal subject as oposed to a marriage related issue. If you go around the world (or hell, just look in the right places in western America) you'll find cultures were it's ok to hit your wives and daughters. Had the incident in the video taken place there, nobody probably would have blinked an eye.

I thought it went without saying that I was talking about the universal standards of western culture. Obviously I don't really understand, and I doubt you do either, the subtleties of other times and places.

Furtehrmore, there are plenty of cultures where you can or could freely kill women who annoy you, or leave your female babies out in the weather to die, and I don't see you advocating that, so I think we should stick to the world we live in for the purposes of this conversation.

See, here's the problem I see with this. In this day and age, women are expected to speak out. Hell, they are encouraged to say there piece. Part of being an independent, liberated women, or something like that. And hey, thats ok. I mean, freedom of speach and all of that. Heres the thing though, and I think another guy on the ther thread put it so perfectly when he commented on something a female friend said to him when he talked to her about the subject, to which she said "Girls don't know the rules". Now, this to me makes sense. Like I said, girls have only really been encouraged to speak freely for a while now by contrast. They might not quiet get it yet, and by "it" i mean the fact that free speach isn't free.

It absolutely is free. No matter what some guy says to provoke you, if you punch him out you're going to jail for it in 99% of cases. There's never any real justification for fighting someone physically for what they say to you. The law is pretty clear on that, in fact I'm pretty sure that you're really not even allowed to threaten to hit someone for talking shit to you if it seems like you might actually follow through on it.

But when it's a contest between two equals, people sometimes shrug it off. You're completely misunderstanding when words are allowed to come to blows.

As another example, take someone who's a trained fighter of some kind. If he appears before a judge for punching the shit out of some guy, he's going to be held to a higher standard than if he were just a random person. Why? Because he has a greater physical cabability to do harm, and is expected to act responsibly about it.

If you're a midget, and a full grown woman provokes you to violence, then maybe it would be ok. But if you're anywhere close to her size, you're expected to contain your capability to do her a great deal of harm, no matter what she says that you find intolerable.

 

[BlackestLily]

I have to be honest. I've been watching the last thread and this thread, and NO OFFENSE INTENDED WHATSOEVER, but I think this is one of the most ridiculous questions I've ever heard asked or debated on this forum.

Why can't we hit women? That's literally the equivalent to me in logic of why can't people have a relationship with a 5 year old, or why can't people lie in court, or why can't I drive my car into a brick wall and just get a free one. Why would you even want to argue that this should be socially okay to happen? How about someone clock your mom because she took a parking spot they had a blinker on for indicating they definitely intended to park there? And they were there first? She certainly had it coming, at least to the person who really wanted that spot. You just don't do things like that because we actually have a WORKING BRAIN. People do dick moves, and you get mad and then MOVE ON. Not clock them in the maw.

If you put a guy and a girl together who were the same size and asked them to fight until there was a winner, 9 times out of 10 that guy is going to come out winning. Muscle mass, more likely to have ANY kind of fighting experience...these are all male advantages to the average female.

Common. Sense.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Very true. In fact most bullies are just all talk. But the point is that most men who hit women or are "wife beaters" tend to strike them far sooner than they'd strike any man who had insulted them just as much, because they're more confident in their physical advantage. Not saying it's always the case but quite often I'm thinking it is.

On the subject of bullying as well, it does make me wonder if at times fighting the bully is the only way to get them to psychologically back off of you.
I'm totally for self defense, but I still have a hard time condoning any act of violence towards somebody for being a trash talker.
I suppose it's unrealistic for me to think that everybody should should be able to take verbal abuse without losing control; but I again wonder if striking somebody of that nature will even help anything at all. Most verbally abusive bullies simply never change.

Sorry, Ray, I went to post a reponse but my fucking comp screwed it up. First I wanted to point out that the thread isnt so much about guys who habitually beat their wives or girlfriends. Those people tend to be control junkies who find the quickest way to control their girlfriends is through violence, or the threat of violence.

Essentially what I wanted to say was that, While physical violence should be left as a last resort, bully's tend to continue until either they grow tired or the person stands up to them. Sometimes this results in a phsyical confrontation, and while one could argue that is wrong, bullying is wrong also. As you said, most bullies are cowards, and if you give them a good punch to the face, they tend to move on, as they realize that you aren't going to just take it anymore. I had a much nicer, longer post, but this will have to do for the time being.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

I plan on posting more responses, just that it might take a day or two, depending.

That being said, I want to thank everybody who has responded to this thread. While there might have been differences of views, everybody has remained very civil and pleasent in discussing where they disagree with others. Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this.

 

[Wolf]

For me? It's not ok. I just can't.
That's not saying person (of whatever gender) doesn't have the right to defend themselves. I'm saying, 99% of the time, it's just not necessary. In my experience, in 1% of the time when it would have been warranted, I just blocked and ducked (mostly effectively) until she wore herself out. No one got hurt, and no one went to jail.

 

[stroker]

Having watched the video . Yeah if anyone realy behaved like that then they are practically on their knees begging for a smacking . But its not real . In real life humans are not nearly as ready to get physical as we think . Even between men fights are rare unless booze is involved or they are part of a mob. Even in drunken fights most of it is push and shove and a lot of posturing and even if punches are thrown they are usually pulled with little real damage done. If you do hit someone male or female ,it not likely that you did it after a lot of thought where you weighed up the pros and cons and then made a rational decision.You just lost it and theres no formula for that . I bet a lot of men who did hit a woman (habitual wife beaters or bullies aside).were probably just as surprised as the woman that they did it.