You’re the jury: Case, Air Trans vs screaming child on plane

[scorpionldr]

Maybeyou can try Hooters Air then

lol i think hooters would be considered a little tame for a 21+ type airline

 

[goddess_nemesis]

I hope when you all have kids you remember this thread and realise that you can never leave the country because you can't fly anywhere with children, in fact you will hardly be able to leave the house in case your children upset someone in the shop, restaurant, cinema, theatre or any public place.

Parents have a life too. Just because I decided to have a baby doesn't mean that I'll never go anywhere or do anything in case I upset someone else. I'm going to live my life and do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. If I want to take my daughter on a plane I will. If you don't like being around children then YOU stay away from public places including planes. You do have that choice.

All these parents wanted to do was go home. Yes I agree that it's not fair on the other passengers that they were disturbed by the child causing a scene and I agree that it's not fair on the airline to be held up because of a child causing a scene but until you have your own children you will never understand. Maybe all you can relate this to is that you never did that as a child because you knew what you would get when you went home but you must have done it at least once to find out what you would get. We're talking about a three year old child here.

People do not become excellent parents as soon as their children are born, it's a learning process. Everyone has to learn how to cope with their child's ups and downs. They're not robots, they're little people with their own minds. All parents can do is try their best to teach their child proper behaviour, right from wrong, and hope for the best. Maybe these parents never saw their child behave like this before, it might have been a new experience for them. We'll never know.

Aun, I understand what you're saying. And I'll be the first to admit that I was far from perfect as a child. If I was causing a scene, my mother would remove me from the environment until I started behaving myself. I know how much it upset my mother when I wouldn't behave myself. She'd tell me and my brothers that we make her look like a bad parent when we're not behaving ourselves.

I honestly don't know how I would react if it were my child. But hopefully, I would be able to do something to calm my kid down. Honestly, when all methods won't work, I would hope the parents would at least remove the child from the environment. Maybe being on an airplane was scary thing for the child or something. If it's being on a plane that was causing her to act out, then get up and get off the plane. I mean, if that were the case, why punish the child like that.

The parents should have thought of something in order to deal with the tantrum their daughter was throwing. After 15 minutes, they still couldn't calm their daughter down; they should have removed themselves from the plane instead of being forced to leave. I'm not a parent, but that seems like the better idea. Not just for the other passengers, but for their child.

I mean, get off the plane, go to a quiet area, and calm the child down. When the child's behaving herself, the parents should prepare the daughter of what she should be doing on the plane: like sitting in her seat, buckled up, and being a good girl. Give her a game to play. Give her a sucker to suck on. Something that would keep her occupied.

I believe the airlines were right with removing the family from the plane. An unruly passenger is an unruly passenger, no matter how old they are. Remember they were given a full refund and were offered free round trip tickets to anywhere they choose, but they refused that offer. It doesn't make up for the father missing work or whatnot, but the airlines didn't have to do that at all.

 

[aun_existe_amor]

I understand what you're saying but just suppose I was in USA and thousands of miles away from home in England, I get on the plane to go home, my daughter starts crying and screaming because she is ill and there's nothing I can do to calm her down until her painkillers start working in 30 mins time. Am I really supposed to leave the plane when I have no idea how long I will have to wait for another one and haven't got enough money to buy more tickets?

 

[phfttklr]

I understand what you're saying but just suppose I was in USA and thousands of miles away from home in England, I get on the plane to go home, my daughter starts crying and screaming because she is ill and there's nothing I can do to calm her down until her painkillers start working in 30 mins time. Am I really supposed to leave the plane when I have no idea how long I will have to wait for another one and haven't got enough money to buy more tickets?

I would think people would be more understanding of a sick child as opposed to one just out of control, running around or jumping in their seat. If not that, then maybe they could do a stand by but I would think they would be more sympathetic.

 

[aun_existe_amor]

I would hope so but it doesn't seem that way from some of the posts on this thread.

 

[maniactickler]

I understand what you're saying but just suppose I was in USA and thousands of miles away from home in England, I get on the plane to go home, my daughter starts crying and screaming because she is ill and there's nothing I can do to calm her down until her painkillers start working in 30 mins time. Am I really supposed to leave the plane when I have no idea how long I will have to wait for another one and haven't got enough money to buy more tickets?

Yes, you should take another flight. im sure the airline would foot the bill for the airfare.

 

[kis123]

Yes, you should take another flight. im sure the airline would foot the bill for the airfare.

This is starting to get ridiculous!

There are exceptions to every case; if the child is reacting to illness it should be considered especially if medication is given. I'm not talking about an ill-mannered kid who's running around being disobedient and causing problems. A sick kid is a sick kid, plain and simple. Everyone on this board has been a sick kid at one point.

Some of you show the compassion level of a hungry pit bull when it comes to kids. It's disturbing considering all of us were kids at one time. Some of you have been downright cruel.

And another thing, flights are late regularly mostly due to airline error, not screaming children! If your flight comes in late because of the airline, do you bellyache and complain about that? Sure you do, but you change your schedules, call your appointments and move on. There is no difference here.

Aun, I can understand your point even though I don't completely agree. The reason I can't completely agree is because many of today's parents don't raise their children. They let them run wild and get angry when someone else disciplines them like being thrown from an airline for disruptive behavior. I don't know how kids are raised in your country, but a lot of kids here go into public like bulls in a china shop while the parent basically ignores them until confronted. Then the parent gets upset because someone corrects their brat's behavior. That's why so many people who posted here have no patience about a child's less than stellar behavior in public.

But every crying child shouldn't be labeled as unruly, spoiled, or overindulged. Sometimes they're just sick, upset, hurt, uncomfortable and scared. Hell, I am a grown woman and can barely keep composed in a plane. If it's late for take off or gets caught in turbulence, I'm about ready to have a heart attack. I have never flown overseas-the thought of being in the air that long is suffocating to me. You'd be throwing me off the plane unless I consumed lots of drugs.

But even I have compassion on a sick child and do NOT think you should be removed from an international flight especially after you've medicated the kid-he'll be asleep in no time and all of the adults would've forgotten about it.

 

[goddess_nemesis]

There are exceptions to every case, but illness was not the case in this story and that's what this thread originally was about. The 3-year-old girl was throwing a temper tantrum, was running up and down the aisles, refused to take her seat and buckle up. The plane is delayed 15 minutes and they still couldn't get their daughter to sit in her seat. The parents said they weren't given enough time to calm their daughter down. 15 minutes and they couldn't calm the girl down or at least get her in her seat. Which is why they were kicked off in the first place!

It wasn't the crying or the screaming of a 3-year-old that got them kicked off. It was because the child refused to take her seat. According to FAA regulations: "All passengers (including children over the age of 24 months) have to be in their own seat (can’t be in mother’s lap past 24 months) with seatbelt fastened or the aircraft cannot move."

They were refunded their money and were offered free round trip tickets to anywhere they wanted to go. The parents were upset that they had to wait 24-hours for another flight. There were other flights with connections, but they wanted non-stop only.

If the child had been in her seat and buckled up, they wouldn't have been kicked off.

 

[fm fantasy]

There are exceptions to every case, but illness was not the case in this story and that's what this thread originally was about. The 3-year-old girl was throwing a temper tantrum, was running up and down the aisles, refused to take her seat and buckle up. QUOTE]


If any of my kids behaved like that anywhere in public, I would give them what for!, but almost all the time unless a kid is sick, if a kiddie is behaving not unlike a wild chimpanzee and refusing to do anything he or she is told then the blame lies purely with the parents.

3 year old refusing??????, I would have grabbed the wee one and simply strapped her into her seat and therefore also learning her we all sometimes have do things we dont always want to, The incompetence of the parents is staggering here, I think they ought to be reported to a childs panel, what hope has that child got in life if they can't even control her when she is 3?, they are going to have it tough in teen years!

 

[maniactickler]

I still say a taser would have come in handy in this situation. one zap, and the plane would be on its way! im not cruel though. maybe design a taser with a lower voltage for kids.

 

[Tamia78]

Wow! Interesting answers here. I don't think it's a debate against parents and non-parents, either. I don't have any kids and I side with the airline also.

The kid had a problem staying in her seat, and it sounds like the parents really didn't do much in the way of stopping her. Kis made a great point (as usual) about how we non-parents have no patience for little kids because of the way people parent these days, and that's the truth. The other day I was at walmart, and this woman was pushing her screaming, crying kid through the store........it was so loud! And she was just acting like nothing was going on. Everyone in the store stopped to stare as she was passing by. I'm sure she was embarrased, but how come she didn't do anything to quiet the kid? THAT'S why we side with the airline. I understand if a little crying was in order at first, but to let the kid throw a full-out temper tantrum in inexcusable to me. When I was a kid, my parents had to only give me "the look" when they saw me start to throw a temper tantrum (and yes, it was because I had done it before and knew what happened when I did). The airline had full right to kick the family off the plane, especially if it was delayed BECAUSE of the unruly child!

None of us were the perfect children growing up, but from what I remember I didn't try to run away, screaming or hitting people (much less my parents) because I knew that if I did, I was gonna get it when I got home. Parents nowadays don't do anything to their kids, except give them a time out. Ooooh, scary!

--T

 

[kis123]

I still say a taser would have come in handy in this situation. one zap, and the plane would be on its way! im not cruel though. maybe design a taser with a lower voltage for kids.

Absolutely incredible and disturbing, yet oh so predictable.

 

[scorpionldr]

Absolutely incredible and disturbing, yet oh so predictable.

yet it's ENOUGH to make EVERYBODY happy!

 

[kis123]

yet it's ENOUGH to make EVERYBODY happy!

Let's see....we have kids described as fu*king parasites, pushing them off planes, holding them in cargo holes, and tazering them all so you can have a pleasant flight experience.

I'm hoping you're not serious, but if you are, that's just a reflection of who you are on the inside and pretty much a personal problem to me.

I'm glad you guys' parents didn't think the same of you. 🙁

 

[Italian_Touch]

Personally, I would have sued the company, and would have NEVER given my child a medication to sleep.

You’re the jury

A couple with a 3yo child was asked to leave the plane, surprised they did what they was told. After leaving the plane they asked to speak with a supervisor, the supervisor told them that they were removed because their 3yo hit another passenger. The mother reply the other passenger was me her mother.

The supervisor stated Air Tran do not make distinction between a 3 yo or a 33 yo a unruly passenger is an unruly passenger. Than the supervisor (a woman btw) started to preach about the important of child discipline. When she got to the point of saying she would never allow her children to act the way they allow their child to act. The father informed her that she needs to shut up.

They was told because they was put off the plane they could not travel Air Trans for 24 hours, the couple was force to get a hotel room for the night, the father missed 16 hour worth of work. The next day, the couple got on the plane with no problem, they give the child some medication that made her sleep the whole flight.

PS. They paid for the sit their child was in, and they were not allowed to retrieve their child car sit from the plane.

My question:

Does the airline have the right to kick the couple off the plane because they could not control their child or should they allow them time to calm the child down?

 

[Italian_Touch]

You're bringing up a different problem, Tamia.
The problems is that there are too many "grown-ups" that make up families too easily (see another thread: 55% divorces, jeez...) and are unable to parenting well. The reasons mightbe open for debate, but are surely out of thread here.

From the first post here it seems that the family was thrown out because the kid hit her mother (did I get it right?). They're running an airline, they are not cousellors in parenting. If this is all it is just ridicolous (and I have been in 8-hour flights with screaming/crying kids.. yes multiple! ... with mothers on their side not even blinking an eye.
I blame the mothers, not the kids.

What shocks me is that the parents have not even gven a warning, a chance, or something.
Being a parent has to be difficult (especially if you are bad in parenting): you should be a little bit flexible and then, evantually, take action if really necessary.

On one side it's tru that many kids are raised wild but on the other side we cannot be in a society that wants all the kids behaving as little robotic clones (and that, unfortunately, starts with school)

Wow! Interesting answers here. I don't think it's a debate against parents and non-parents, either. I don't have any kids and I side with the airline also.

The kid had a problem staying in her seat, and it sounds like the parents really didn't do much in the way of stopping her. Kis made a great point (as usual) about how we non-parents have no patience for little kids because of the way people parent these days, and that's the truth. The other day I was at walmart, and this woman was pushing her screaming, crying kid through the store........it was so loud! And she was just acting like nothing was going on. Everyone in the store stopped to stare as she was passing by. I'm sure she was embarrased, but how come she didn't do anything to quiet the kid? THAT'S why we side with the airline. I understand if a little crying was in order at first, but to let the kid throw a full-out temper tantrum in inexcusable to me. When I was a kid, my parents had to only give me "the look" when they saw me start to throw a temper tantrum (and yes, it was because I had done it before and knew what happened when I did). The airline had full right to kick the family off the plane, especially if it was delayed BECAUSE of the unruly child!

None of us were the perfect children growing up, but from what I remember I didn't try to run away, screaming or hitting people (much less my parents) because I knew that if I did, I was gonna get it when I got home. Parents nowadays don't do anything to their kids, except give them a time out. Ooooh, scary!

--T

 

[Italian_Touch]

lol i think hooters would be considered a little tame for a 21+ type airline

Ohh, c'mon... every kid has already seen a couple of boobs... and maybe these ones are even better

... actually, he might calm down! LOL

 

[phfttklr]

Personally, I would have sued the company, and would have NEVER given my child a medication to sleep.

Ummm, just what exactly would you have sued for? It's their airlines, the were following safety rules. I hate when everyone sues because they can't take blame and glad the courts act on frivolous claims now.

 

[Italian_Touch]

According to the Air Line and some on the passengers on the plane, the child would not sit in her seat. They been chasing this child around for 20 mins. which cause the plane to be 20 mins late taking off. The mother requested that the child be placed on her lap during take off which is against Air lines and FAA rules.

Sorry, I am replying while scrolling randomly the pages (hope the mods do not me deplane the forum for misbehaving!)

If things went this way, the airline was absolutely right. If there is a safety issue, it doesn't matter who causes it. The cause has to be removed.

 

[scorpionldr]

Let's see....we have kids described as fu*king parasites, pushing them off planes, holding them in cargo holes, and tazering them all so you can have a pleasant flight experience.

I'm hoping you're not serious, but if you are, that's just a reflection of who you are on the inside and pretty much a personal problem to me.

I'm glad you guys' parents didn't think the same of you. 🙁

so you'd rather just endanger an entire flight of people, piss off everyone with the sound of your screaming offspring (if you do have any), lengthen the process of serving people, and hold up a flight regardless of how long your departure can get delayed so you can hold a sign that says your not abusive?

That's not smart, and it sure as hell isn't parenting. Sometimes kids need a smack upside the head, regardless of how it's presented (whether it be a verbal comment or physical). I'm just sick in general of the entire youth of today (and I am one, that's how bad it is); they're entirely ungreatful and disrespecting of everyone around them, and it needs to get fixed STARTING HERE.

 

[kis123]

so you'd rather just endanger an entire flight of people, piss off everyone with the sound of your screaming offspring (if you do have any), lengthen the process of serving people, and hold up a flight regardless of how long your departure can get delayed so you can hold a sign that says your not abusive?

That's not smart, and it sure as hell isn't parenting. Sometimes kids need a smack upside the head, regardless of how it's presented (whether it be a verbal comment or physical). I'm just sick in general of the entire youth of today (and I am one, that's how bad it is); they're entirely ungreatful and disrespecting of everyone around them, and it needs to get fixed STARTING HERE.

You OBVIOUSLY haven't read any of my previous posts or you wouldn't have bothered to ask me this.

I don't like unruly children any more than anyone else does around here, but the so called solutions are basically cruel and barbaric-now that's exactly what I meant.

No one has answered my previous question; when airlines screw up and cause delays, what do you do then, throw them off the plane, put them in cargo holes and tazer them? Now that sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it?

Oh, and btw, you may want to step over to Tamia's thread on spanking to see my take on discipline and child-raising before you assume again.

You see, I don't know how many kids you're RAISED, but I've RAISED two-one with mental handicaps and learning disabilities. I know how it feels to be stared at with disdain from judgemental people who don't know what's going on. I've been accused of being a bad parent because he couldn't calm himself down. My ex would be harrassed when my son would tantrum and he'd have to use certain holds to restrain and calm him down.

So as much as I hate unruly children, I also know how it feels to be misunderstood by so-called uniformed, misguided, impatient, angry, and judgemental adults!

Now that I've said that, I still agreed that the unruly child should have been removed if a REASONABLE amount of time was taken for the parents to get the child under control. This was a kid who lost control, I don't know if there were any mitigating circumstances (was she handicapped as well). There's not enough information so I'll go with the unruly child theory.

Anyone who has ever had a negative experience with Air Tran or TSA would help you to understand that they're nothing but bullies with the government to back them up! I've had bad experiences with them both and was basically treated like a crimininal. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this family was treated the same way. But I wasn't there, so I will assume it was an unruly child the parents could not control within REASONABLE amount of time.

But I've personally been on the other side of the coin and know how it feels; and my kid wasn't unruly; it was the incompetant staff at the ticket window who chose not to display the rules of their airline or their airport. You can't hold someone accountable for what you didn't inform them in advance!!

If you want to have an opinion, you're certainly entitled. If you just want to make barbaric jokes about children, I guess you're entitled to do that as well. I feel just as entitled to tell you and others just how cruel and disturbing your sick jokes and cruel commentaries regarding children are.

 

[aun_existe_amor]

Kis, there's just no point trying to explain to anyone who has never had their own children. They'll never understand until they've been there 🙂

 

[kis123]

Kis, there's just no point trying to explain to anyone who has never had their own children. They'll never understand until they've been there 🙂

I know I've wasted a lot of words on a few people who are just too into themselves and their needs to consider other issues. It's easier to make sick jokes and cruel barbaric commentaries-it doesn't require much thought.

One day, some of these same individuals will have kids and will be the first to raise hell when someone rattles off a sick disturbing commentary about children.

Hopefully some of them will just do themselves and the world a favor and continue to remain childless.

 

[scorpionldr]

You OBVIOUSLY haven't read any of my previous posts or you wouldn't have bothered to ask me this.

I don't like unruly children any more than anyone else does around here, but the so called solutions are basically cruel and barbaric-now that's exactly what I meant.

No one has answered my previous question; when airlines screw up and cause delays, what do you do then, throw them off the plane, put them in cargo holes and tazer them? Now that sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it?

Oh, and btw, you may want to step over to Tamia's thread on spanking to see my take on discipline and child-raising before you assume again.

You see, I don't know how many kids you're RAISED, but I've RAISED two-one with mental handicaps and learning disabilities. I know how it feels to be stared at with disdain from judgemental people who don't know what's going on. I've been accused of being a bad parent because he couldn't calm himself down. My ex would be harrassed when my son would tantrum and he'd have to use certain holds to restrain and calm him down.

So as much as I hate unruly children, I also know how it feels to be misunderstood by so-called uniformed, misguided, impatient, angry, and judgemental adults!

Now that I've said that, I still agreed that the unruly child should have been removed if a REASONABLE amount of time was taken for the parents to get the child under control. This was a kid who lost control, I don't know if there were any mitigating circumstances (was she handicapped as well). There's not enough information so I'll go with the unruly child theory.

Anyone who has ever had a negative experience with Air Tran or TSA would help you to understand that they're nothing but bullies with the government to back them up! I've had bad experiences with them both and was basically treated like a crimininal. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this family was treated the same way. But I wasn't there, so I will assume it was an unruly child the parents could not control within REASONABLE amount of time.

But I've personally been on the other side of the coin and know how it feels; and my kid wasn't unruly; it was the incompetant staff at the ticket window who chose not to display the rules of their airline or their airport. You can't hold someone accountable for what you didn't inform them in advance!!

If you want to have an opinion, you're certainly entitled. If you just want to make barbaric jokes about children, I guess you're entitled to do that as well. I feel just as entitled to tell you and others just how cruel and disturbing your sick jokes and cruel commentaries regarding children are.

I saw your posts on "what if it were a sick child" and disregarded them. And no, as far as I'm concerned, we don't throw them out of cargo holds or tazor them. But I sure as hell FEEL like that's a quick way to give myself some silence when it's going on around me.
Either way, you didn't have to beat your children to get them to listen to you, but the fact your ex had to wrestle down one of your kids to enforce proper behavior is almost as bad, considering the "negotiational tactics" you've discussed in making children behave.
I honestly don't know what the hell is so hard to understand. It's a kid that plays a 20 minute game of tag up and down a plane because the parents have absolutely no control over what's going on. Let me explain a bit of child psychology. If the kid hits the mother, who's probably trying to catch the damn kid, its sure as hell not because they're sick! Have you ever seen a kid running full tilt when it's sick? NO, they end up sitting to avoid the pain of being sick and OCCASIONALLY start crying. In this case it's a kid reacting to being stopped! 20 minutes should be more than reasonable to change something like that. I've seen parents that actually can parent that have done it in 5, many times.
As far as the rules. The couple was told the child has to sit and not hit anyone, correct? Did it happen? No. Pretty simple rules to me. I haven't exactly heard about any complicated rules about being on a plane yet other than sitting in a seat (90% of the job in being a passenger) and being quiet. Enlighten me as to what these rules were.

 

[kis123]

I saw your posts on "what if it were a sick child" and disregarded them. And no, as far as I'm concerned, we don't throw them out of cargo holds or tazor them. But I sure as hell FEEL like that's a quick way to give myself some silence when it's going on around me.
Either way, you didn't have to beat your children to get them to listen to you, but the fact your ex had to wrestle down one of your kids to enforce proper behavior is almost as bad, considering the "negotiational tactics" you've discussed in making children behave.

If this is the most you got from my last post, no amount of enlightement will work. My ex never wrestled my child to the ground as your imagination predicts-he'd never do a thing to hurt him at all, thank you very much! When dealing with special needs children, certain holds bring comfort and calm, even though some don't look as if they do. He's never abused my child at all! Once again, you've made an assumption on a subject matter you know NOTHING about! You seem to have a problem with jumping to conclusions on issues you obviously have no personal experience.

If you don't have children, stick with your jokes and commentary. Until you get some kids of your own and raise them, don't critizize me for what worked in my family. You really have no idea what you're talking about; it just sounds like you want to just start an attack because I pointed out earlier that yours and others coments were disturbing, distasteful, and certainly not funny at all.