Absolutely disgusting!

[SkitterTitter]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8456292284


This makes me absolutely sick.....How the fuck can anyone actually support this? And it's not me intruding on their freedom of speech, but seriously?!? These men and women put their lives on the line for us daily, and it's our duty and privilege to support them...I'm not dissing the firefighters that this group supports, but they are all heroes for what they do, whether it's protecting us over here, or protecting our freedoms.

So how is the US military defending my freedoms in Iraq?

 

[Artoo]

So how is the US military defending my freedoms in Iraq?

Don'cha know? Those terrorists in Iraqistan have WMDs and will use it to blow you up and kill you, and they won't give us any oil either.

The military is defending you and your country from the hideous onslaught of...Iraqis.

 

[nWo-Cowboy]

Okay, so soldiers aren't necessarily heroes, but firefighters apparently always are? Whoever started that group needs to familiarize themselves with some history.

 

[meangry]

Don'cha know? Those terrorists in Iraqistan have WMDs and will use it to blow you up and kill you, and they won't give us any oil either.

The military is defending you and your country from the hideous onslaught of...Iraqis.

One mark down.

We still got about five million before we catch up to the imperialist British who, if not for their apparent retarded step child tag of rebels, would be speaking German or Russian right now.

 

[Artoo]

One mark down.

We still got about five million before we catch up to the imperialist British who, if not for their apparent retarded step child tag of rebels, would be speaking German or Russian right now.

You seem to be catching up pretty quick.

You can't use that old chestnut to defend the actions your country takes 60 years later, though.

 

[c7_assassin]

It's a shame that war exists in this world, the same way it's a shame that rape and murder exist. But there's really nothing we're going to be able to do about it. We could turn our military into a full-time peacekeeping force without any offensive capability...

And how long would it be before China or some other totalitarian country decided to invade its neighbors? Freedom-loving countries need a strong military.

 

[meangry]

You seem to be catching up pretty quick.

You can't use that old chestnut to defend the actions your country takes 60 years later, though.

Catching up? I'm sorry, but you seem to have forgotten your country's countless sins. Which is why now, in a post Colonial British world, your country has more or less allowed to be relevant. Yet like all things the British do and believe, they are far too thick to realize.

Others might allow your kind to attempt some dropkick on America, but you know what? America has nowhere near the gallons of blood that the fucking British or French have on their hands. So it's going to be forever until anyone with an actual brain gives any sort of leeway to what those people have to say about nation building, or military action.

Oh, and we'll create a western friendly Middle Eastern hub while we flush out the Taliban to the India border and smoke them. Which is how it is supposed to work.

But why should I care? It's not like my country is the one becoming infested with radical Muslims like the grand old Union Jack.

 

[c7_assassin]

Remember though, one of those "countless sins" was actually founding the American colonies.

America didn't invent modern democracy, the British did. The founding fathers based the Bill of Rights on principles invented up by the British. And if Britain hadn't been an imperialist nation, our world wouldn't even be recognizable today.

Not sure what that has to do with the argument...

 

[meangry]

Remember though, one of those "countless sins" was actually founding the American colonies.

America didn't invent modern democracy, the British did. The founding fathers based the Bill of Rights on principles invented up by the British. And if Britain hadn't been an imperialist nation, our world wouldn't even be recognizable today.

Not sure what that has to do with the argument...

The foundation of this democracy has more lineage to classical philosophical texts than the imperialist rule of the British. If anything, their ideology fueled their push away from it.

 

[Synful Pryde]

It's a shame that war exists in this world, the same way it's a shame that rape and murder exist. But there's really nothing we're going to be able to do about it.

How might things change if war were delegitimized as a foreign policy option, the same way colonialization has been delegitimized? It's not possible to eliminate violence, surely. How about abolishing war as a legitimate means to be used by the State?

We could turn our military into a full-time peacekeeping force without any offensive capability...

And how long would it be before China or some other totalitarian country decided to invade its neighbors? Freedom-loving countries need a strong military.

Could such a strong military be focused on defense, including remaining internal (like Japan's Self-Defense Force, until recently..) rather than external and focused on offense (like much of the U.S. military)?

Using your example, if China were to invade its neighbors, what could the rest of the world do? (That is not a rhetorical question; what options could there be?)

I realize these are not simple questions, and to be honest, they could each easily be their own threads. Would that be preferable to highjacking this thread?

Thank you for your thoughts on this very important matter. I hope others will join us in constructive dialogue.

 

[Artoo]

Catching up? I'm sorry, but you seem to have forgotten your country's countless sins. Which is why now, in a post Colonial British world, your country has more or less allowed to be relevant. Yet like all things the British do and believe, they are far too thick to realize.

Others might allow your kind to attempt some dropkick on America, but you know what? America has nowhere near the gallons of blood that the fucking British or French have on their hands. So it's going to be forever until anyone with an actual brain gives any sort of leeway to what those people have to say about nation building, or military action.

Oh, and we'll create a western friendly Middle Eastern hub while we flush out the Taliban to the India border and smoke them. Which is how it is supposed to work.

But why should I care? It's not like my country is the one becoming infested with radical Muslims like the grand old Union Jack.

Yes, the country in which I live in is not perfect, never has been, and probably never will. You might have had a valid point if I was somebody who had some sort of nationalistic pride - I don't, because I know that where I'm born is simply an accident of birth.

You seem to be making the assumption that I agree with everything that has transpired on this patch of grass, and that I'm fine with sitting back and not critisising it. You couldn't be more wrong.

And despite Britains flaws and foibles, it doesn't mean that I should stop calling out things that other governments have done which I disagree with.

I'm done with this, I don't want to get drawn into an argument, particularly when I agree with you on a number of counts.

 

[meangry]

Yes, the country in which I live in is not perfect, never has been, and probably never will. You might have had a valid point if I was somebody who had some sort of nationalistic pride - I don't, because I know that where I'm born is simply an accident of birth.

You seem to be making the assumption that I agree with everything that has transpired on this patch of grass, and that I'm fine with sitting back and not critisising it. You couldn't be more wrong.

And despite Britains flaws and foibles, it doesn't mean that I should stop calling out things that other governments have done which I disagree with.

I'm done with this, I don't want to get drawn into an argument, particularly when I agree with you on a number of counts.

Look, I'm not in agreement with Iraq and never have been, but a bunch of pieces of shit in the political system stuck their dick in the sand of Iraq not understanding the logistical point that Saddam kept Iran in check, and that we should have been smoking out fundamentalists in other Middle Eastern nations.

 

[c7_assassin]

The foundation of this democracy has more lineage to classical philosophical texts than the imperialist rule of the British. If anything, their ideology fueled their push away from it.

I don't know about that. Which classic texts? Because the idea of limited government, the sovereignty of the people, the right to throw off the shackles of tyranny... these came out of the English Revolution in the 1600's.

And we wouldn't be here in North America if they hadn't invaded and taken it from the Natives (and then the French).

 

[meangry]

I don't know about that. Which classic texts? Because the idea of limited government, the sovereignty of the people, the right to throw off the shackles of tyranny... these came out of the English Revolution in the 1600's.

And we wouldn't be here in North America if they hadn't invaded and taken it from the Natives (and then the French).

We're talking Plato and Socrates and the such like.

Ideas of limited government and shackles of tyranny were not the pushed out ideologies of the Dryden's and the thinkers of the time.

 

[c7_assassin]

How might things change if war were delegitimized as a foreign policy option, the same way colonialization has been delegitimized? It's not possible to eliminate violence, surely. How about aboloshing war as a legitimate means to be used by the State?

But how could you apply that policy to every country? It's a nice theory, but I think the League of Nations showed us that it doesn't work like that. I think in the end, the ultimate defense of any nation is their warmaking ability. If China invaded India tomorrow, they'd have to worry about India nuking them. And if things got very serious, they'd have to worry about the US nuking them too.

I don't think it's pretty, but I just don't see any way around it.

 

[Fire_Sprite]

Catching up? I'm sorry, but you seem to have forgotten your country's countless sins. Which is why now, in a post Colonial British world, your country has more or less allowed to be relevant. Yet like all things the British do and believe, they are far too thick to realize.

Others might allow your kind to attempt some dropkick on America, but you know what? America has nowhere near the gallons of blood that the fucking British or French have on their hands. So it's going to be forever until anyone with an actual brain gives any sort of leeway to what those people have to say about nation building, or military action.

Oh, and we'll create a western friendly Middle Eastern hub while we flush out the Taliban to the India border and smoke them. Which is how it is supposed to work.

But why should I care? It's not like my country is the one becoming infested with radical Muslims like the grand old Union Jack.

You're being overly sensitive here. Just because he criticized our government's foreign policy doesn't mean he was placing his own country on a pedestal or something. All he did was say that the WMD part of the Iraq was was complete bullshit. Which is more or less fact.

 

[Synful Pryde]

But how could you apply that policy to every country? It's a nice theory, but I think the League of Nations showed us that it doesn't work like that.

Now I'm curious about exactly how the institutions of colonialism and slavery came to be delegitimized -- with particular interest in slavery because it must have been virtually as old as war itself. I ought to do educate myself on this!

It's true that slavery still exists in various forms around the world, including within the U.S., but the global community (=?) seems to be almost unanimously opposed to that once-ubiquitous practice.

I think one thing we can apply was well-demonstrated by certain parts of the civil rights movement: peaceful noncompliance, not against individuals, but against the system. This is not to say that nonviolence is a panacea.

I think in the end, the ultimate defense of any nation is their warmaking ability. If China invaded India tomorrow, they'd have to worry about India nuking them. And if things got very serious, they'd have to worry about the US nuking them too.

I don't think it's pretty, but I just don't see any way around it.

So am I correctly understanding that you feel it's a matter of deterrence, i.e. that the (enactable) threat of unacceptable losses is a reliable, unfortunate, but necessary means of self-defense?

 

[c7_assassin]

Now I'm curious about exactly how the institutions of colonialism and slavery came to be delegitimized -- with particular interest in slavery because it must have been virtually as old as war itself. I ought to do educate myself on this!

It's true that slavery still exists in various forms around the world, including within the U.S., but the global community (=?) seems to be almost unanimously opposed to that once-ubiquitous practice.

I think one thing we can apply was well-demonstrated by certain parts of the civil rights movement: peaceful noncompliance, not against individuals, but against the system. This is not to say that nonviolence is a panacea.

I think it was mostly done from within...I'm not totally sure, but I think in most cases the government made slavery illegal and then bought the slaves' freedom from their former masters. You can make a law against slavery (and murder, for that matter), but I don't think you could make a law against war. How could you enforce it, without the threat of...war?

So am I correctly understanding that you feel it's a matter of deterrence, i.e. that the (enactable) threat of unacceptable losses is a reliable, unfortunate, but necessary means of self-defense?

That's how I feel. And not only that, but I think sometimes military aggression can be used to positive ends. A lot of Americans didn't feel that World War II was "their fight" (until Pearl Harbor, that is). But I think in that case, the US fighting the Nazis was justified (and we had to do horrible things to win that war...firebombings, massive casualties...it makes the wars we fight today look like kid-gloves shit).