Anyone here for animal rights?

[SmarterthanU]

Yeah. I'm presenting several people's arguments. That was kind of my point.

These are the stances that things effectively boil down to in the bulk of animal rights arguments, they've been seen here, and each seeks to disprove the argument before it, but they all seem to have about the same weight, and so the argument mostly just goes in circles, or back and forth, 'til folks get tired.

Do you think it is otherwise?

I think that you are creating a composite argument because no one is actually arguing it individually. Do you think you might be creating a straw man?

 

[SmarterthanU]

And so you likely shall.

There are so many things I want to say, but I will sum it all up in only three small groupings of letters...

Darwin Theory FTW.

Would you care to explain that?

 

[ViperGTS]

Interesting. Would you give your cats to a lab to be used as test animals for, say, hairspray or deodorant? If not, why not?

Would their heads me chopped off or their skin stripped for the testing?

We can go back and forth on this all day. I'm not saying that animal testing is right or wrong, or even necessary. I just would rather see someone such as yourself provide a valid, intelligent argument as to why you are so strongly opinionated, rather than "they're so cute/they have feelings too."

Cosmetics and things of that nature can be tested on people. Hairspray, deodorant? Same thing. Possibly life-ending or -altering drugs, pharmaceuticals, and chemicals? I can understand wanting to test them on a living thing lower on the evolutionary ladder than humans. The alternative, you ask? Death row inmates that were convicted with no circumstantial evidence.

 

[SmarterthanU]

I just would rather see someone such as yourself provide a valid, intelligent argument as to why you are so strongly opinionated, rather than "they're so cute/they have feelings too."

Read my posts.

Cosmetics and things of that nature can be tested on people. Hairspray, deodorant? Same thing.

But they aren't. Cosmetic testing labs needlessly torture animals, it's as simple as that.

Possibly life-ending or -altering drugs, pharmaceuticals, and chemicals? I can understand wanting to test them on a living thing lower on the evolutionary ladder than humans. The alternative, you ask? Death row inmates that were convicted with no circumstantial evidence.

Think about drugs for a moment. Not the fun kind. Think about, for example, cancer drugs. First, you have to cause the proper kind of cancer in the animal you're testing, and you have to be able to count on some similarity of cancer cell structure - all the while there are humans dying of exactly that kind of cancer who are begging to be given the experimental drug, and are being refused. The truth is that there will come a time when the only way to do accurate, responsible preliminary drug testing will be via computer model simulation. Most animal testing is done because it's cheap, and much is sheer overkill (pardon the pun), done for no other reason than because $500/hr corporate lawyers insist on it.

 

[Capnmad]

1.) One argues that despite our apparent differences, we are animals, too, and so we should have sympathy for our fellow animals.

Yuor wrong! Animals are living creatures, just like us! They deserve to be treated equally. Deny it all you want, but us humans are animals too. Or have you forgotten that?

2.) One counter-argues that dog-eat-dog (or in this instance, lion-eat-antelope) is natural law for animals, and a shark would never give a second thought to eating us.

A shark or lion wont stop from eating you if its hungry because "oh, im gonna have some kelp or grass"

Its nature and man is tops

To equate it to animals
You are blaming the lion for being a lion

3.) The other responds that our awareness as human beings gives us an edge over animals, allows us to be moral, and to make a choice not to kill.

For this point, I can find no quote in this particular thread, but the argument has come up in other animal rights arguments I've witnessed and taken part in. The basis that man, being the moral animal, abstains from inflicting suffering.

4.) The other responds that this very awareness is indicative and part of a set of qualitative differences that sets us above and apart from animals, entitling us to use them as a natural resource.

You people are comparing a brainless animal to an intelligent human being? i must be seeing things.

Do you think you might be creating a straw man?

I was referring to the arguments I had seen and inferring the pattern this sort of thing creates from experience. I supposed that point three had been made. I suppose it wasn't made explicitly, but I suspect it was only a matter of time. So no. I don't think I was making a strawman, and I think my points were valid.

Now, as I was saying, do you think it is otherwise than I've suggested? Do you propose a solution beyond recognizing the impasse, accepting it, and finding other topics?

I think Game Girl has made her opinions clear and passionately. I think others have done the same. I hope I've demonstrated with my example the likelihood that further debate will result in no progress. I also think continuing much beyond that increases the likelihood of more hostility, which is unnecessary -- but I leave that to the discretion of the participants.

I suggest we appreciate the compassion on both sides, for humans and animals both, take comfort in that we've spoken our minds and been heard, and have peace.

Consider it.

Take care, all.

 

[Dr. Vollin]

No. I'd rather die than watch another animal be murdered for us.

Which brings us to a question; would you rather see a friend or family member die? What if that person would rather live in that situation?

 

[Goodieluver]

But I don't understand...How come humans are letting this happen? These animals have to suffer for us? Do you honestly think that these innocent creatures should go through so much pain and trauma just to supply for us? No. I don't think they should. and I hope the scientists who do these things suffer for it. How would you all feel? To be torn away from your family, locked into tiny cages and have multiple tests done on you. To be abused and put through constant agony. Animals have feelings. They feel pain. They feel suffering. They are terrified that they are going to die. and don't you DARE say animals have no feelings.

You would sacrifice millions\billions of innocent men, women and children for animals? You sound just as cruel and sadistic and you make out people to be who dont support your cause

The testing has saved millions\billions and our children to come

 

[Goodieluver]

http://www.stopanimaltests.com/animalTesting101.asp?c=sat0113g&gclid=CKWR0-W_uo8CFQXOQwod23vvdA

Look at the clip on this site. and you'll see the suffering they have to go through. Alot of these animals are only babies..

Look at any picture of drought stricken\starved areas of africa thats plagued with disease

also back to your statement about you would die before an animal dies, well, im sure a tiger would NOT be as considerate to you, tiger would see u as a hot lunch, but then again, i presume you'd be ok with being devoured because it really means it loves you?

 

[*~Game Girl~*]

Why are you all so blind?? Why can't you see the pain your putting these animals through?

Can't you see how scared they are? They don't know if they are going to live or die. They've been taken from they're families. They've been locked up and purposely hurt. I don't care if it's for medical, cosmetics or whatever. It is wrong!! and if scientists loved animals, then they woulden't do it!

 

[Leo tickles]

Here's an idea, let's test it on human infants. Chances are they'll grow up to be dope heads anyways with today's parenting skills. 🙂

 

[*~Game Girl~*]

Don't joke!! Go onto youtube and look up animal testign! and you'll see what these abstards are doing to these creatures! It has to be stopped!

 

[Comfort Eagle]

Don't joke!! Go onto youtube and look up animal testign! and you'll see what these abstards are doing to these creatures! It has to be stopped!

Go to a hospital and watch somebody die of cancer... If killing animals could end that, I'm all for it.

 

[*~Game Girl~*]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88kMJXphN0k

Watch this clip of a beagle being tested on. and you tell me if this is right.

Don't reply to this, untill you've watched the full video.

 

[SpiffyTickler]

Why are you all so blind?? Why can't you see the pain your putting these animals through?

Can't you see how scared they are? They don't know if they are going to live or die. They've been taken from they're families. They've been locked up and purposely hurt. I don't care if it's for medical, cosmetics or whatever. It is wrong!! and if scientists loved animals, then they woulden't do it!

You're appealing to emotion, which doesn't make a good foundation for an argument.

Some very good points have been raised about the consequences of stopping all animal testing, and you've given them only enough thought to hand-wave them away.

 

[JimmyBoy]

Here is my stance on this... i am against animal cruelty and the abuse of animals but I do not believe that animals have the same rights that we as humans do. For one, they are animals, they have no concept of what rights are. People might say animals have feelings, well until I here an answer from an animal on this issue then we will never know.

Do I think animals should be used for humans, absolutely. I am against their abuse but if we can study and learn from them in the science field to save human lives then yes we shall experiment.

 

[ViperGTS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88kMJXphN0k

Watch this clip of a beagle being tested on. and you tell me if this is right.

Don't reply to this, untill you've watched the full video.

So far, not a single one of your responses has given any alternative recourse suggestions, nor have you done anything but say how cute the animals are and that hurting them isn't fair.

Let me ask you something. Do you have anyone in your family who has or is suffering from cancer, or any other painful disease?

 

[Comfort Eagle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88kMJXphN0k

Watch this clip of a beagle being tested on. and you tell me if this is right.

Don't reply to this, untill you've watched the full video.

Yes, that is terrible...



But ya know what's a lot worse?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z3P3uSkCqq4

 

[Capnmad]

You know, I was trying to appeal to reason and chill things out a bit because I feel I understand a bit how each side feels, believe each is entitled to what they're saying, and I saw a couple of elements here that often turn really aggressive, and I was trying not to lose another thread...

But looking at the posters, now I don't think that's likely. Pretty much no matter what opponents say, Game Girl doesn't actually engage discussion. Aside from a "Sorry" or an "I just don't understand" and the recognition that someone cracked a "joke" in the last couple of pages, there's not a hint of acknowledgement that anyone else might have actually said something.

Game, if you don't engage in discussion, continue to ignore your opponents and post ever-more pictures and youtubes of animal cruelty, eventually, people will just say, "Well I've had my quota of unpleasant imagery for the day" and move on. You will not affect them except to inspire them to ignore you in return and do something more enagaging and less unpleasant with their time.

But until you're ready to be part of a real give-and-take with your opponents, maybe that's for the best right now.

Be well.

 

[Goodieluver]

Im an animal and this thread is fucking cruelty to my brain

sheesh

 

[Bugman]

Game, if you don't engage in discussion, continue to ignore your opponents and post ever-more pictures and youtubes of animal cruelty, eventually, people will just say, "Well I've had my quota of unpleasant imagery for the day" and move on. You will not affect them except to inspire them to ignore you in return and do something more enagaging and less unpleasant with their time.

Thats the problem with groups like PETA cap.There is no room for debate or discussion.You agree with them or you are a cruel heartless unfeeling person.Thats been my experience anyway.If anyone has had better luck then i have i would like to hear about it.

 

[chicago]

Save a plant, eat a vegan.

 

[Bugman]

Save a plant, eat a vegan.

LMAO.

 

[Comfort Eagle]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KeCyyhmHICU

 

[alchemy]

Wakey Wakey Eggs and Bakey!

Then something has to be done! Wearing, or even owning fur clothing in my country is illegal. and it SHOULD be illegal in every country!

It's cruel how hunters kill these beautiful creatures and skin them! Right now, animals are murdered simply for human purposes! The meat, I ain't complaining about..It's clothings made from fur...ornaments made from certain parts of animals...This is wrong, vile and evil Animals don't deserve such cruelty. We're already losing tigers, pandas and many other creatures thanks to human greed! Why won't anyone see the damage humanity is causing to the animal world??

Ok, I've gotta step into this...

First of all, Game Girl, you are expressing an opinion, and being that I am a political Libertarian, I believe that EVERYONE has the right to their opinion. I respect you for this. I cannot, however, respect your assertion that YOUR opinion is more valid than someone else's simply because you feel strongly about it. By doing so, you are implying that you are not only more intelligent and more insightful than those that disagree with you, but also that you simply "know what's best for everyone". BULLSHIT.

Your assertion that, just because it's illegal in your country (and you agree with it), it therefore SHOULD be illegal EVERYWHERE is an arrogant and rather disgusting view point. Your entire arguments seem to be based on nothing more than a few simple beliefs: 1)animals are pretty, innocent and noble.
2)human beings greedy heartless bastards (except you of course)

Too many cultures and societies of people have been forced-fed (or simply wiped out) due to such ethnocentric thinking.
How bout this Game Girl. How bout you go to other countries...who have completely different cultures and beliefs than you...and tell them that they are evil and wrong for THEIR treatment and consumption of animals. Yeah, that's it!! Go tell the people starving to death in third world countries that they are NEVER, under ANY circumstances allowed to eat an animal or wear the skin of an animal. Go try that a few times and then get back to us on how well you do.

Life and death are both a part of existence. The food chain is an integral part of life on this planet. Animals have ALWAYS eaten other animals and WILL ALWAYS eat other animals. That's life. That's reality.

Here's something else to think about Game Girl, you know that country that you live in...that has such noble laws for animals...yeah, it wouldn't be there if not for people that both ate and wore products of animals. Yep, cave people, barbarians, early human societies...they ALL ate animals and wore their skins. You would not be here if not for them. You see, ideas such as "animal rights" and "vegetarianism" only arise from people who live soft, privileged lives...people that don't have to wonder on a day to day basis what or IF they are going to eat...people that have the free time to sit about and think such horrendous thoughts such as: I think animals are pretty and good and pretty and nobody anywhere should eat them ever.

You people wonder about evolution? The human race has officially evolved to the point where absurdity becomes law. Stick THAT in your pope and smike it.

And your whole deal on animal testing.... Shit, I'm for human testing let alone animal testing. Let's cure some of these diseases how bout...test monkeys, rabbits, my next door neighbor...whatever it takes!

Anyway, your view point, though well meaning, is absurd and arrogant.

 

[Labyrinthgddss]

I have to say that i agree with alchemy but i feel the need to add my two cents. 🙂
i dont believe in animal cruelty...if u beat something to the point of injury or worse and its NOT IN SELF DEFENSE, then u have been cruel to an animal... i do however think that animal testing is necessary...to an extent...for make-up or other such items... well thats just being vain... test out something on your self but for any and i mean any medical research go for it...i have lost family and friends *as have many others* to some horrid disease because they were unable to cure it...
but even if you dont like killing animals sometimes it is unavoidable... like the afore mentioned mice and rat(disease carrying and destructive...)...or doing what comes naturally....eating to survive... no matter what u believe and feel if u have to do something u believe to be morally unacceptable or "cruel" u will do it to survive...(example the south american soccer team that crash landed in the mountains...turned cannibal to survive...)
* PS..No i havent read all of the post so if i repeat something forgive me*