Beware – Beware – Cults – Beware - Beware

[ShadowTklr]

I have been reading, with great concern, the couple of threads that have been exploring the idea of a separate tickling organization or “cult.” I must say that this is the SINGLE MOST DISTURBING thing that I have EVER read on this forum.

I urge all of you who have been thus far supporting the idea of a cult or organization to stop now, before it grows a life of its own. This whole "cult" or "organization" idea needs to be put down like a rabid dog - and I mean 5 shotgun blasts to the head, just to be sure!

"Organizations" such as the one proposed here have only ONE goal in mind, and that goal is for the creators of such an organization to cast themselves in positions of power in order to satisfy their own Utopian concept - NOT YOURS. Anyone who proposes the idea of placing themselves as a leader of an organization which would create and enforce rules and policies to govern the “behavior” of its members should be held in the HIGHEST SUSPICION!

Use your brains; use your intelligence. Don't be swayed by what sounds like a Utopia. There is NO SUCH THING! Don’t you think someone else would have discovered it already if it was out there?

Tickling is NOT...repeat NOT a metaphysical state of mind. It is a sexual predilection, and a fetish. There is nothing wrong with that distinction. There is no reason to have to reinvent its meaning for the sake of belonging. There is nothing "spiritual" about it.

If this is the foundation upon which you plan to "organize," then you will have succeeded in making yourselves look like lunatics to the very mainstream audience you’re trying to impress. Why would anyone subscribe to an idea that creates exclusionary rules, memberships, privileges and the like where none are currently required to simply behave as FREE INDIVIDUALS without organizational affiliations.

Ask yourselves this question: If we already have a place where people can congregate on the internet, share ideas, discussions, artwork, stories, etc., if there are already gatherings where people can meet and have fun, then WHY is it necessary to further "organize?" What will you have with such an organization that you don't have now?

The answer: Leadership - which NO ONE here requires. Hierarchical membership? Bullshit! It’s brainwashing – pure and simple. Circle of whatever? Who actually NEEDS that?

The ingredients I see in these cult threads have all the ear markings of a valid cult, and so far, I'm the ONLY one who seems to be speaking out against it.

So, I’m asking everyone here who reads this to REJECT this kind of organization with extreme prejudice. It is dangerous, exclusionary, and serves absolutely NO purpose whatsoever other than to promote a false philosophy as a catalyst for the placement of false leaders.

The TMF IS the organization. It IS the place where we can all come to be together. Jeff and Max have made their mark with the very creation of this congregational hall we call the TMF, and their fantastic efforts in the organization of the NEST. To seek a more narrow definition of who we are and how we should be labeled and behave is CONTROL! We do not need to be led, redefined, created, or spoken for by anyone.

Think for yourself!

 

[Deadsea7777]

I have been reading, with great concern, the couple of threads that have been exploring the idea of a separate tickling organization or “cult.” I must say that this is the SINGLE MOST DISTURBING thing that I have EVER read on this forum.

I urge all of you who have been thus far supporting the idea of a cult or organization to stop now, before it grows a life of its own. This whole "cult" or "organization" idea needs to be put down like a rabid dog - and I mean 5 shotgun blasts to the head, just to be sure!

"Organizations" such as the one proposed here have only ONE goal in mind, and that goal is for the creators of such an organization to cast themselves in positions of power in order to satisfy their own Utopian concept - NOT YOURS. Anyone who proposes the idea of placing themselves as a leader of an organization which would create and enforce rules and policies to govern the “behavior” of its members should be held in the HIGHEST SUSPICION!

Use your brains; use your intelligence. Don't be swayed by what sounds like a Utopia. There is NO SUCH THING! Don’t you think someone else would have discovered it already if it was out there?

Tickling is NOT...repeat NOT a metaphysical state of mind. It is a sexual predilection, and a fetish. There is nothing wrong with that distinction. There is no reason to have to reinvent its meaning for the sake of belonging. There is nothing "spiritual" about it.

If this is the foundation upon which you plan to "organize," then you will have succeeded in making yourselves look like lunatics to the very mainstream audience you’re trying to impress. Why would anyone subscribe to an idea that creates exclusionary rules, memberships, privileges and the like where none are currently required to simply behave as FREE INDIVIDUALS without organizational affiliations.

Ask yourselves this question: If we already have a place where people can congregate on the internet, share ideas, discussions, artwork, stories, etc., if there are already gatherings where people can meet and have fun, then WHY is it necessary to further "organize?" What will you have with such an organization that you don't have now?

The answer: Leadership - which NO ONE here requires. Hierarchical membership? Bullshit! It’s brainwashing – pure and simple. Circle of whatever? Who actually NEEDS that?

The ingredients I see in these cult threads have all the ear markings of a valid cult, and so far, I'm the ONLY one who seems to be speaking out against it.

So, I’m asking everyone here who reads this to REJECT this kind of organization with extreme prejudice. It is dangerous, exclusionary, and serves absolutely NO purpose whatsoever other than to promote a false philosophy as a catalyst for the placement of false leaders.

The TMF IS the organization. It IS the place where we can all come to be together. Jeff and Max have made their mark with the very creation of this congregational hall we call the TMF, and their fantastic efforts in the organization of the NEST. To seek a more narrow definition of who we are and how we should be labeled and behave is CONTROL! We do not need to be led, redefined, created, or spoken for by anyone.

Think for yourself!

I do agree, the only idea of a "cult" is terrifiying. The last thing I would like is to belong to anything related to a cult. If others want so be it,freedom for everyone. I will have to leave the TMF a cult from my point of view is dangerous, they very easily degenerate in cutting down the freedom of the members in benefit or the "clery".

 

[sabaki]

playing devil's advocate.

Everything you're saying about "cults" is correct. But I do think you're taking their (poorly chosen?) language too seriously, and not giving enough consideration to the spirit of their words.

- Any group that's created along these lines would surely have voluntary membership. Both joining and leaving.

- The spiritiual language is just colorful language to make things more fun. It's fantasy *play*. Nobody's talking about coercing initiates to a new belief system. Nobody's talking about brainwashing.

- This idea does fill a need that gatherings don't. Namely, gatherings are mainly one-shot open-to-all affairs. They recur periodically, but each new gathering is self-sufficient, and may draw entirely new people. A club would have persistent membership, and tighter control on who can join. It would afford a greater sense of continuity and community.

- Every kind of club is exclusionary, by definition. It's true that there are negatives associated with being exclusive, but there are positives too. For one thing, the people in the club share a stronger bond. There is greater trust between them.

- The hierarchy idea is also not unique to cults. Take the Boy Scouts. Hierarchies reward participation and achievement. Regarding the priveleges of rank, can't you see the excitement in such an idea for a 'lee who knows they are at the mercy of trusted friends? Or for a 'ler with a pool of willing, but skittish play partners?

- Finally I wanted to point out that a key theme of this "cult" was self-improvement and happiness. Both worthy goals.

Summary: In your heart of hearts, can you not see and FEEL how exciting their idea is, if it's executed safely and with respect for everyone involved? And what reason do you have to believe it would not be?

Edit: on the other hand... Some of these arguments are pretty weak. It's true that many harmful cults have innocent beginnings, and also true that many harmful cults have seemingly good ideals, such as self-improvement and happiness. So my jury is still out. But I keep an open mind.

 

[theshire]

I agree with ShadowTklr - this is one of the worst and most pretentious ideas I have ever heard.

 

[isabeau]

I'm also with you Shadow..i deleted the posts in support of the cult.

 

[siamese dream]

Wasn't there already a tickling club in new york or somewhere in the northeast, called the Hyenas or something like that? I think attaching the word "cult" to any group a person is trying to start is kind of a bad idea, because of the connotations. And yeah, theshire used a good word to describe what I don't like about the idea, "pretentious". What I don't get is how the membership would get together... where is the location? One of the coolest (and sometimes most frustrating) things about the TMF is that the members are spread throughout the world, NEST and other gatherings are great because a bunch of TMF people can get together and finally meet....but to attend those gatherings, you either have to live in the area, or drive/fly a very long way to go. And then there's taking off work and travel costs to consider on top of that... so I don't understand how a tickle "cult" could have any more than a few regular members, everyone else would probably only get to join in the fun on a very rare occassion, if at all.

I've never been to a gathering cause I live pretty far from all of them, I've always been curious but I don't know if I'll ever end up going to one. I respect the 'tickle-cult' idea in itself, but I just don't see how it could realistically work. Max and everyone else into the cult idea, I just wanted to say that you've helped to create a great thing here with the TMF, it blows my mind how many members the TMF has, just looking at the "who's online" list on the main page is incredible because there's almost always hundreds of people logged into this site at any given time.

 

[aun_existe_amor]

I agree with ShadowTklr too. Very scary thought. I certainly won't be having anything to do with any cult especially when one of the organisers replies was "ArfArfArfArfArf" towards someone showing concerns. If it really isn't all that bad shouldn't one of the organisers at least try to put our minds at ease? Afterall, what is there to hide if there's nothing wrong with it?

 

[sabaki]

Good point amor. I hope they make an attempt to do so.

Meh. I regret bumping that old post in the first place. 🙁 If I hadn't posted there none of this would have happened.

 

[Capnmad]

I have been reading, with great concern, the couple of threads that have been exploring the idea of a separate tickling organization or “cult.” I must say that this is the SINGLE MOST DISTURBING thing that I have EVER read on this forum.

With respect, I think the term "cult" is a loaded one that brings up images of Branch Davidians in firefights and Jim Jones' followers drinking Kool-Aid. Loaded terms are always difficult to discuss when they remain loaded with one set, and are used tongue-in-cheek or have otherwise lost their edge with another.

Insofar as this dissonance remains, it remains to be seen to what degree this plan does indeed display the hallmarks of cults... Thus far, I've heard little about late-night chanting sessions, low-protein diets, sleep deprivation and isolation from ones family. Granted, these aren't exactly the adverts most cults (whether only starting or well established) send out to prospective participants... But right now, whatever IS being discussed is ONLY being discussed.

You might argue that that's how it starts, but then, that's how most things start. Let's not stop the world.

And how seriously is this all being taken? It's hard to tell, what with Max's charisma and childlike sense of humor (the "ArfArfArf-ing" away of all criticisms)... But I suppose I'll reserve judgement until I see something more substantial or more distressing, like the inability to consider other forms of so-called "governance" or leadership.

"Organizations" such as the one proposed here have only ONE goal in mind, and that goal is for the creators of such an organization to cast themselves in positions of power in order to satisfy their own Utopian concept - NOT YOURS. Anyone who proposes the idea of placing themselves as a leader of an organization which would create and enforce rules and policies to govern the “behavior” of its members should be held in the HIGHEST SUSPICION!

Indeed. And I do. Hence my questioning and skepticism of the leadership structure. What, they couldn't envision three co-equal governing bodies? No, I think it's the tendency of most humans to grasp power where they think they can, and perhaps (and I say "perhaps" because I really don't know for sure) moreso among a population where a power differential is an inherent part of the attraction of the activity.

Use your brains; use your intelligence. Don't be swayed by what sounds like a Utopia. There is NO SUCH THING! Don’t you think someone else would have discovered it already if it was out there?

This I think pretty much goes without saying.

Tickling is NOT...repeat NOT a metaphysical state of mind. It is a sexual predilection, and a fetish. There is nothing wrong with that distinction. There is no reason to have to reinvent its meaning for the sake of belonging. There is nothing "spiritual" about it.

This is a statement of opinion. That you have not experienced satori or some other spiritual event during a tickle session doesn't mean others have not. Perhaps others have. I have not. I just like it because it's fun, and it's an integral part of my life, and insofar as I connect my physical, mental and sexual well-being with my spiritual well-being, yes, it is tangentially spiritual even to me.

If this is the foundation upon which you plan to "organize," then you will have succeeded in making yourselves look like lunatics to the very mainstream audience you’re trying to impress. Why would anyone subscribe to an idea that creates exclusionary rules, memberships, privileges and the like where none are currently required to simply behave as FREE INDIVIDUALS without organizational affiliations.

You pose an excellent question at the end, but I think it was said earlier in the thread that they're not looking to impress a mainstream audience, no, nor even leave a footprint within it, but to draw people in over time. ...in that regard, yes, like a cult -- decidedly separate from the mainstream, drawing others in.

Ask yourselves this question: If we already have a place where people can congregate on the internet, share ideas, discussions, artwork, stories, etc., if there are already gatherings where people can meet and have fun, then WHY is it necessary to further "organize?" What will you have with such an organization that you don't have now?

The answer: Leadership - which NO ONE here requires. Hierarchical membership? Bullshit! It’s brainwashing – pure and simple. Circle of whatever? Who actually NEEDS that?

Again, you ask an excellent question. But would I agree that "Hierarchical leadership" is "brainwashing"? ...no. However, I would say that giving such a hierarchical leadership as discussed currently real jurisdiction over one's freedom to any degree is a frightening proposal. Which again, is why I voiced my skepticism and posed my question regarding the boundaries of power earlier.

The ingredients I see in these cult threads have all the ear markings of a valid cult, and so far, I'm the ONLY one who seems to be speaking out against it.

I'm not speaking out, as there's no point to do so yet. Until or unless someone wants to get serious about this, and by that, I mean serious enough to address valid concerns with more than barking, then they're not ready to take this thing beyond the talking/joking around stage. Indeed, if the pressure against such a thing got too high, given the sense of humor of its orchestrators, it could be declared all a great joke, making detractors and participants alike look a bit foolish or just foolishly optimistic, and that would be it. No harm done. In fact, until something more material evolves, it may as well be that.

I disagree with the discussed leadership structure, preferring instead something more egalitarian and less centralized, but as yet, it's nothing but talk. And if it were to become more, I have enough good sense and healthy skepticism to judge for myself what I do or do not wish to be a part of.

So, I’m asking everyone here who reads this to REJECT this kind of organization with extreme prejudice. It is dangerous, exclusionary, and serves absolutely NO purpose whatsoever other than to promote a false philosophy as a catalyst for the placement of false leaders.

The TMF IS the organization. It IS the place where we can all come to be together. Jeff and Max have made their mark with the very creation of this congregational hall we call the TMF, and their fantastic efforts in the organization of the NEST. To seek a more narrow definition of who we are and how we should be labeled and behave is CONTROL! We do not need to be led, redefined, created, or spoken for by anyone.

Think for yourself!

Well, thank you. I do, and needn't your admonition to do so either ("Think for yourself! (because I tell you to!)" 😀 ). I am wary enough of all things exclusionary and elitist, but while there is a spark of inspiration looking to improve the state of things (which I suspect this is at its core), I will be happy to fan it and redirect it when I think it goes astray.

 

[isabeau]

I agree with ShadowTklr too. Very scary thought. I certainly won't be having anything to do with any cult especially when one of the organisers replies was "ArfArfArfArfArf" towards someone showing concerns. If it really isn't all that bad shouldn't one of the organisers at least try to put our minds at ease? Afterall, what is there to hide if there's nothing wrong with it?

damn girl just what i was thinking..

 

[drew70]

If you don't think it's a good idea, Shadow, simply don't participate. This alarmism seems to ill befit you.

 

[ShadowTklr]

Well, thank you. I do, and needn't your admonition to do so either ("Think for yourself! (because I tell you to!)" 😀 ). I am wary enough of all things exclusionary and elitist, but while there is a spark of inspiration looking to improve the state of things (which I suspect this is at its core), I will be happy to fan it and redirect it when I think it goes astray.

Hmmm. All good points, Cap. And, I wasn't admonishing anyone. I was proposing the potential dangers associated with following ideals to the extent that they are considered Cultish. OH, and BTW, the word cult is not a representation of my invention. I only use the word, because it was used so frequently by those posters to represent themselves. Thanks for the reply. 🙂

 

[ShadowTklr]

If you don't think it's a good idea, Shadow, simply don't participate. This alarmism seems to ill befit you.

I know Drew, believe me. I thought a while before I even hit the "Submit" button. This is genuinely outside of my normal character, but I felt so strongly about the language and discussion I was seeing on the "Cult" threads, that it moved me to react somewhat outside of my normal characterisitics.

And, just for the record, when have you EVER known me to simply be quiet when I see something that rubs me the wrong way? 😉 LOL

 

[Capnmad]

Hmmm. All good points, Cap. And, I wasn't admonishing anyone. I was proposing the potential dangers associated with following ideals to the extent that they are considered Cultish. OH, and BTW, the word cult is not a representation of my invention. I only use the word, because it was used so frequently by those posters to represent themselves. Thanks for the reply. 🙂

And thank you, for the interesting, yet civil and polite discussion. 🙂 I beg your pardon, though, at stealing a laugh at the circularity of the "Think for yourself!" sentiment -- I do so every time and from every person I hear it. 😀

 

[ShadowTklr]

I agree with ShadowTklr too. Very scary thought. I certainly won't be having anything to do with any cult especially when one of the organisers replies was "ArfArfArfArfArf" towards someone showing concerns. If it really isn't all that bad shouldn't one of the organisers at least try to put our minds at ease? Afterall, what is there to hide if there's nothing wrong with it?

Hi amor.
I feel a sense of responsibility as a member of what I have embraced as a "community." It doesn't mean that everything I write will be popular, and it doesn't even mean that everything I write will be well-accepted, but I hope those people reading my posts will at least believe me when I say that I am thinking about the community at large.

I'm never afraid to be wrong, but I read through both of the other "Cult" threads in their entirety, and I have to say that I was pretty shook up regarding the perpsective of some posters. That's what prompted this thread. I'm not attacking any one individual, but I am vehemently attacking the concept to which some people are claiming subscription.

Thanks for understanding. 🙂

 

[isabeau]

I know Drew, believe me. I thought a while before I even hit the "Submit" button. This is genuinely outside of my normal character, but I felt so strongly about the language and discussion I was seeing on the "Cult" threads, that it moved me to react somewhat outside of my normal characterisitics.

And, just for the record, when have you EVER known me to simply be quiet when I see something that rubs me the wrong way? 😉 LOL

i know that you post how you think and it's one of the many things i admire about you..going against the mainstream thoughts as it were..i've seen you state strong opinions on many things, especially in the p&r forum..and you always make perfect sense to me..and i'm not just saying this because i'm your biggest fan lol. and you are making sense to me in this thread as well..

 

[RobAce]

This is just WAY TOO FUNNY!!!

Rob

PS..does anyone remember this.....

LMAO!!!

P-PS...Its really really funny

Rob

 

[venray]

Okayyyyy then....Time for me to say a few words...

The word "cult"....poor choice, perhaps, as well as hierarchy....but taken in the right context as fantasy or play and those words can be dismissed...


Now imagine if you will a place where folks like us could go to live and work in a community setting....Others could come and go as they please (as could we) and join in activities such as NEST all year round...

Imagine a group of friends that accept one another for who and what they are without judgements...who get along so well they hate going their separate ways when the "gathering is over...."

So now a group of folks like this gets together and buys a house or land with more than one and puts together a place where folks like them can live and enjoy one another's company all the time...Play or no play....

Now "mainstreamers might call them hippies living in a commune or they might call them a "cult" living in a compound....

Personally I call it a group of like minded folks getting their lives together to live the way they want to among loving and caring friends...

The "cult" thread needs to be taken toungue in cheek as do the "Arfs" (LOL @ Max)..

The point is to not take ourselves too seriously......

There are many of us who would like to live this way...it is not necessary for anyone who would not to "Join" in any way....

But what mainstreamers might think is of no importance...no one is trying to "impress" anyone..

And NO koolaid is allowed...........

 

[sabaki]

I'm happy at the direction y'all are taking this thread. Yay TMF'ers. Yay for making your fantasies come true (I hasten to add, in an SSC way). 🙂

 

[Iggy pop]

I think this thread may be a little alarmist, but then again I don't get the whole cult idea anyway. The whole idea of levels, councils, punishers, metaphysical enlightment, and inner circles does not appeal to me. I like to tickle women I find attractive. It gets my rocks off. I'm not looking to find Buddah or to become one with the universe. I think the idea of a tickling cult is that it takes something so simple as tickling and makes it complicated. There is no reason for it.

 

[ShadowTklr]

Okayyyyy then....Time for me to say a few words...

The word "cult"....poor choice, perhaps, as well as hierarchy....but taken in the right context as fantasy or play and those words can be dismissed...


Now imagine if you will a place where folks like us could go to live and work in a community setting....Others could come and go as they please (as could we) and join in activities such as NEST all year round...

Imagine a group of friends that accept one another for who and what they are without judgements...who get along so well they hate going their separate ways when the "gathering is over...."

So now a group of folks like this gets together and buys a house or land with more than one and puts together a place where folks like them can live and enjoy one another's company all the time...Play or no play....

Now "mainstreamers might call them hippies living in a commune or they might call them a "cult" living in a compound....

Personally I call it a group of like minded folks getting their lives together to live the way they want to among loving and caring friends...

The "cult" thread needs to be taken toungue in cheek as do the "Arfs" (LOL @ Max)..

The point is to not take ourselves too seriously......

There are many of us who would like to live this way...it is not necessary for anyone who would not to "Join" in any way....

But what mainstreamers might think is of no importance...no one is trying to "impress" anyone..

And NO koolaid is allowed...........

This sounds a lot like when relatives want to be near one another and they buy houses in the same neighborhood so they can visit whenever they want. The only difference is that they don't have a heirarchical structure within an entire community. There are no elders or councils, or initiation ceremonies or financial interests to be paid. There are no behavioral rules of conduct, or specific roles allocated to certain individuals.

I think your explanation of what I read in 2 other threads is the press release version of things. It certainly does not reflect the "spirit" of what I read.

 

[ShadowTklr]

I think this thread may be a little alarmist, but then again I don't get the whole cult idea anyway. The whole idea of levels, councils, punishers, metaphysical enlightment, and inner circles does not appeal to me. I like to tickle women I find attractive. It gets my rocks off. I'm not looking to find Buddah or to become one with the universe. I think the idea of a tickling cult is that it takes something so simple as tickling and makes it complicated. There is no reason for it.

Well, the thread was supposed to be alarmist. As I said in another thread, it started out to be a real tongue in cheek "The sky is falling" kind of thread, but the more I thought about what I had read previously, the more these statements paralleled that of a real cult.

The outcome was a little over the top, but no more over the top than the idea to which I was addressing.

 

[lrtk36]

cult reply

I agree with shadow, although the term "cult" may not be the correct word it is still something to think about, and remember what's happened in the past with cults, and i also agree the TMF is the best, and for everyone to use common sense always.......if it sounds too good to be true.....then it is!

 

[venray]

This sounds a lot like when relatives want to be near one another and they buy houses in the same neighborhood so they can visit whenever they want. The only difference is that they don't have a heirarchical structure within an entire community. There are no elders or councils, or initiation ceremonies or financial interests to be paid. There are no behavioral rules of conduct, or specific roles allocated to certain individuals.

I think your explanation of what I read in 2 other threads is the press release version of things. It certainly does not reflect the "spirit" of what I read.

"Press release"...LOLOL..that is a good one....As for the thread you are referring to it was thrown out as a random premise quite some time ago...opinions were given...people "played" with ideas...and of course...nothing came about from it and the thread died a natural death as most do here until someone revived it out of curiosity....

Ideas evolve.....mostly from discussion and input....that it what has occured and what I have thrown out to you is where the idea stands today....at least for some of us...

Picture a real life tickling community......where people can live and be themselves and choose who they "play" with with....

Now as far as authority and laws and the rest...every town has a government...this would be no different....If initiations and the like is what is bothering you, then fear not......If anything along those lines were to occur, it would be among consenting adults and not forced upon anyone....

This is just MY perception of what is most likely to work.....not for everyone....you needn't participate in any way if it alarms you so....

As for being alarmist, your right to be so, but you really should deal with facts of which there are none right now, before you go running around yelling "the sky is falling"......

 

[ShadowTklr]

As for being alarmist, your right to be so, but you really should deal with facts of which there are none right now, before you go running around yelling "the sky is falling"......

Oh no, my friend. You have it backward. The time to yell is now, BEFORE the idea gains any steam. Is it premature? It's only premature if it works, and the idea dies on the vine. But isn't that the time to kill the poisonous fruit - before it matures?