Cack =/= Art

[Headsnap]

Sorry but I've been bottling this up for a while and if I don't say it it's going to eat me alive. Cack is not artwork. The tickling artwork forums both here and at TTC are becoming increasingly cluttered with cack that looks as if drawn by a mentally deranged ape or a horny 13 year old struggling in the first throes of realising they have a fetish and desperately seeking an outlet for it. I don't deny that art and drawing are areas where personal taste play a big part in what you like and what you don't like, but I fail to see how anyone can like looking at tickling drawings which contain characters who look as though they've been smacked in the face with a frying pan or are horrendously deformed beyond all human recognition.

I would also like to point out that fawning over cack does not make cack into artwork; worse, it is actually counterproductive and can drive someone who would otherwise work and improve to complacency, leading to them mass-producing their shite and clogging up the artwork forum with it. I can appreciate that not offending people is important and making people feel valued is a nice thing to do, but it's possible for someone to be a nice person but not be very good at drawing. Telling them so in a productive way not only helps them to improve if they really want to, it prevents people like me having to make threads like this, which doesn't help anyone because it makes me look like a jerk and also makes people self conscious.

To anyone who recognises something of themselves in what I'm saying here, there are two things to do. First of all you can simply ignore me and keep posting rubbish, which is fair enough, freedom of expression and all that. Then there's hidden option number two; work on and improve your artwork. Two of the best examples of artists who've done this are grippedchimp and Pabuluz. When Chimpy first started posting stuff way back in the last century he was half-decent but not great, most of his scenarios were samey and he could only get feet from one angle. Pabuluz likewise wasn't all that great when he started out. Now, Chimp's retired as a legend on merit rather than a cult of personality and Rosie's one of the sexiest characters around at the moment (and sadly absent, moar pinkness plis Pabuluz kk). Whether this was a conscious effort on their part to get better or not I have no idea, but they did it, and so can you. Unless you'd just prefer to keep churning out cack. It might also help if you asked people to be as honest as possible when commenting on your artwork and be ready to hear some things which were probably as diffcult for your friends to write as they are for you to read, but rather than getting pissy about them take them on board and use them to improve.

I'm not mentioning any names because I don't want to personalise this little rant, I just want to air out an opinion. Any comments/ civillised rebukes are welcome.

 

[korn_ste]

I Agree.......... I think Pab and Chimp are fine examples of what the Artwork section's of the TMF & TT Forums should be about, and YES there is alot of cack (as you put it - lol) being posted by what simply could be done better by a 5 year old........ sorry guys

Also i'd like to add : I don't for one second count my own Artwork contribution as Great..... it's far from it........... but I DO want people to be honest and help me construct better pieces, a while back someone commented on my Art saying he didn't really like my style - well it didn't stop me and i hope i've improved (maybe he could give me another opinion now?)
I would love to get better and get my characters as popular as Rosie (my fav.) and of course the other super characters on the Tickle Artwork Forum's,
This may...... or may never..... happen but i do feel my stuff is getting better - i just wished i had more personal time to contribute like i used to on the forums.

Thanks

 

[miel]

I agree with you 100% !!!!

There is a lot of artwork that looks like an 8 yr old drew it..which creeps me out.

Not everyone can be BAC though...

 

[Headsnap]

No they can't and that's a good thing, because then it'd get boring. Everyone has their own style and way of bringing their fantasies to life, but there's having an established style and being poor at drawing, there's a difference. It's one thing to say "this forum is poo because the styles aren't to my taste" and what I said, which is that there a lot of people who are not very good at drawing but who are unlikely to work to improve because people keep telling them their stuff is good when it's clearly oh so not.

 

[The Bandito]

I agree and also I disagree.

I too have noticed that there is a ton of artwork posted that is reeeeeeeeaaaaally bad, and no one offers criticism. I have also noticed that everytime someone DOES offer a negative review - they get like 20 negative replies. Seems like criticism (even constructive criticism) is not exactly encouraged.

And maybe that's not a bad thing. If people want critique of their art style, or their artistic skills, I feel like an art forum like DA is a much better venue for that. TT is not exactly the best locale for a discussion of the paradigms of artistic merit. This is a content forum, primarily. And, frankly, I wish there was a lot more content in the tickling community in general.

Personally it took me a long long long time to work up to posting my work online. I try to get better with EVERY single pic. But everybody likes something different. I often wonder, why did that pic only get a few replies.... did people not like that one??? What the heck??

So, as much as I respect your position Headsnap, I might go the other way with it. I wish that people were MORE supportive. I wish we had MORE artwork on the forums, not less. Even if some of it is cack to you and me -- someone out there might really love it. And yeah - I think people SHOULD encourage some criticism, even if they are good. That's how we all get better!

So everyone out there. I say post more art. Post more commentary. Post more criticism. Post cack if ya have to, but dammit - try to get better!!!!

Just my two cents.

Peace,

Bandito

 

[D_E_S]

i couldnt have said it better myself, i think u just stated what alot of people have been thinking for a while but have been to scared to say, and i too wud like it if people wud be more honest about the things i draw so i can better myself as an artist...

My hats off to you sir...

 

[Kalamos]

I too have noticed that there is a ton of artwork posted that is reeeeeeeeaaaaally bad, and no one offers criticism.
...
And maybe that's not a bad thing. If people want critique of their art style, or their artistic skills, I feel like an art forum like DA is a much better venue for that.

Mmm... they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
And who am I [or anybody else] to burst ppl's collective bubbles?

And even if ppl really dig shit, heck, give them spades and let them have fun while they can.

...

Sure, sometimes I doubt myself. When users post remarks like "this is the best piece of art I've ever seen in my life", and they are not commenting of something of mine, something tiny and brittle shatters, deep inside myself.

And it gets even worse when they actually dig up fan art from 2002...
They didn't just stumble into it. They bypassed new pics, just to find *that* particular piece of art.
And maybe it wasn't exactly art to begin with. Of art it only had the name, and some catchy title, to draw fan ppl in.

I tend to dislike fanpics because of that. Tried doing fan art myself, nobody took notice, and almost deleted it.
Heck, almost deleted my whole archive...

Luckily, most artists around here retain some shred of sanity, or we wouldn't have a single pic around.

...

😉

So everyone out there. I say post more art. Post more commentary. Post more criticism. Post cack if ya have to, but dammit - try to get better!!!!

Well, what I can say is: if you think something is bad, do not feel forced to comment on that anyway.
As I often suggest, comment on something you like, instead.

You see... on some rare instances, ppl actually PM me to tell they love my pics.
It's like winter season in Hell to me: "why on earth haven't you replied to my threads then?", I ask.
They never reply.
And they never bump either! What good are fans if they can't do a simple job as bumping a thread they just claimed they "love"!?

Ah, I should have taken Conjuration/Summoning as my specialisation school...

😉

...

Maybe I could raise a few undead bumpers...

😀

 

[Snail Shell]

Sorry dude. Cack's the best I can do.

Snail Shell

 

[shadow365]

First of I would like to state my intention. I am posting here simply to share a different perspective on the issue at hand. It is NOT my desire to create a war in this thread, please do not feel that I am here to do that.

While I am a bit of an art snob, I am also a firm believe in freedom of expression. It is true that not all the artists that post here are of the same caliber. But rather than discouraging these people to post or (heaven forbid) bannin them from posting all together, use your ability to employ constructive criticism, ex. "Hey, decent start, but you may want to look at how so-and-so draws their feet, maybe you could pick up some pointers there."

If you feel that you are incapable of constructive criticism you may just want to look at who posted the initial thread, and if it is not an artist you care for, simply don't open the thread.

Again, not here to start a way, just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

Also,you may want to refer to Dave's thread entitled "The Decorum of Constructive Criticism" Here is the link:

http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?t=42754

 

[moonknight80200]

Sorry dude. Cack's the best I can do.

Snail Shell

Snail, the devil you say! Your stuff is flippin' phenomenal. And to Headsnap, I can only say...

Hear, hear!

I agree with quite a bit of what you've said (especially your descriptions of the pieces in question) and I certainly feel your frustration. You click on a thread with an interesting title (usually bearing the name of a mainstream cartoon character you may like) and find...well...you described it well enough. That being said, I fail to see what one can do about it, other than encouraging folks not to flame those who offer honest to goodness constructive criticism.

There are several masters on the forum who never fail to deliver (past and present greats, like the venerables Tomato Dragon, Snail Shell, Ozzy, Scamwich, J.Giangiacomo, Bandito, FTKL & BZ Tickler, and Mandell, to name a few of the very best). However, t is an open forum and people are free to post whatever they like, whether its a carefully crafted masterpiece like the product of those mentioned above or a flat-colored (as in it looks like they clicked on the paint bucket), non-shaded, one-dimensional, deformed, disproportionate, five-a-week-all-look-the-same piece of (as you say) shite.

I suppose you could do what I do. If you see the name of a person who consistently produces pieces you find to be rubbish, just don't bother clicking on any of his stuff. Just as I methodically click on the posts of the above mentioned (and others whose style I enjoy) I make sure to avoid the posts of certain others like the plague, as I know I won't like what I find there.

And while I'm as entitled to my opinion of a given poster's style as anyone else, I keep said opinion to myself, as I remember that no one is forcing me to look at their stuff and that I can't draw a lick myself. Plus, everything here is free!

I do applaud your honesty and your giving us a chance to vent our spleens. Do get ready for the flames. 😉

 

[Kalamos]

Sorry dude. Cack's the best I can do.

?

...

I don't think Headsnap was referring to you.
I don't even know whom he was referring to anyway.

...

But that's sure interesting.
Ppl hold your art as masterpieces. You, on ther other hand, call it "cack".

Somebody's gotta be wrong.

😉

 

[Rgevskiy]

Snail Shell
Your works is not cack. =) But... In Russia this is called a "popsa". It means: Numerous, not highly artistic, but bright products in popular subjects. It is not bad at all, but "popsa" - not the best way for artist.

to All
I conditionally divide artists into groups:
Cack killalot, Rajee, sorry...
Low (or popsa) Snail Shell, Falcon.
Mediocre (Transitive level) C_Tickler, Rgevskiy 😉 , Pabuluz*, Khali.
High Chimp, Umojar, Friday-13(she are only lazy).
Ultra-High (fully commercial level) Bandito, Kalamos, Tomato Dragon..
Genius Scavenger, Ozzy..
In examples only artists well familiar to me


Actually, i think, only mediocre and high-level artists need some criticism to improve.

Cack and Low-level artists if they really want to become better, should get some art education independently, outside of a forum.

Ultra-High-level artists sometimes need in other sorts of criticism - criticism of the designer's ideas.

It just my opinion. =)

*Yes, yes, I know, the Pab has many fans, but "to copy looks of Ozzy's style" and "be the second Ozzy" - different things. The understanding of gear of style has highest importance.

 

[grippedchimp]

I can see where Headsnap is coming from, though he seems to sound a lot more discouraging than criticising in my view. Last thing you wanna do is put down a new artist with decent drawing skills, otherwise you'll miss out on their potential to be something special if they stuck with it. It's hard to take criticism a few months after you started contributing, it really is. I know that from experience. And not everyone can be BAC, as miel said.

OK, my art when I started out over 6 years ago was good, but it wasn't great, but it was a good base to work on. And I tell you what, a number of people have ripped on me in the past, and those who have haven't said anything in the last couple of years. I mean I didn't study Art at further education level, so through pain-staking research of the human anatomy, numerous drawing techniques, and many fetish/tickling pictures, I improved on what I got. Another reason why I improve on my art is here in this following quote from my interview with Dave2112 last year...

...posting here has helped me improve as well. When I see a truly inspired piece of work, I'll admittedly be envious of it for a brief period, but then I attempt to match that by improving my art.

And looking at Snail Shell's reply, he's displaying a good sign of what an artist should be: Never being satisfied with their own work. Being a good artist is about always wanting to improve. If you're always happy with your work, you'll never bother improving on it, which is bad in the long run. Of course, many would disagree with Snail Shell otherwise. 😉

 

[Kalamos]

I conditionally divide artists into groups:
...

Careful with that kind of list. 😉

...

Or I'm gonna start posting from my secret archive ... and it's gonna be cack time unbound!

😀

 

[moonknight80200]

I agree with most of your assessments, but I'd make no distinction between the Ultra-High and Genius. Tomato Dragon is every bit as good as Ozzy, maybe better. Just my opinion.

And Snail is "popsa"? No way! Did you see that comic he did where Raven was having the nightmare or the latest Darkstalkers series? He's better than everyone you rated as Mediocre and most of your Highs. Again, just my opinion.

The rest was spot on though.

Snail Shell
Your works is not cack. =) But... In Russia this is called a "popsa". It means: Numerous, not highly artistic, but bright products in popular subjects. It is not bad at all, but "popsa" - not the best way for artist.

to All
I conditionally divide artists into groups:
Cack killalot, Rajee, sorry...
Low (or popsa) Snail Shell, Falcon.
Mediocre (Transitive level) C_Tickler, Rgevskiy 😉 , Pabuluz*, Khali.
High Chimp, Umojar, Friday-13(she are only lazy).
Ultra-High (fully commercial level) Bandito, Kalamos, Tomato Dragon..
Genius Scavenger, Ozzy..
In examples only artists well familiar to me


Actually, i think, only mediocre and high-level artists need some criticism to improve.

Cack and Low-level artists if they really want to become better, should get some art education independently, outside of a forum.

Ultra-High-level artists sometimes need in other sorts of criticism - criticism of the designer's ideas.

It just my opinion. =)

*Yes, yes, I know, the Pab has many fans, but "to copy looks of Ozzy's style" and "be the second Ozzy" - different things. The understanding of gear of style has highest importance.

 

[Rgevskiy]

Kalamos
😀
I have appreciate your humour (if I correctly have understood you).

This list is not stable. I self was the cack artist several years ago.
I have hope that even Rajee will be becomes high-level artist.

And... This list not a "body" of my previous post. The main idea is: To artist will hard learn to high-grade drawing, if he read criticism at a forum only. A minimal education is necessary (my sister teach Me, for example).

 

[Kalamos]

Lists are bound to change: users dig different artists, different settings, different styles, different scenarios and characters - and so on.

What could be genius to one, might be just ok to others.
And besides you don't want ppl to start bickering about "my favourite artist is better than yours".

...

A guy once told me: if drawing pays the bills, then you're not an amateur anymore.

Talent alone doesn't help, if ppl won't recognise it, and gladly pay to see more.

So... maybe it's shit to some of us, but as long as ppl like it, and ask for more - and are ready to pay for it - it's gold.

 

[Headsnap]

You appear to have missed the point. As I've already said, it's not about someone's style being cack or my personal preferences when it comes to drawing; if it were about my preferences then I'd be railing against poser art because I personally hate it.

But it's not, it's about people who aren't very good at drawing posting their efforts and people licking their bumhole for it and telling them that the horror they have unleashed upon the world is a "nice pic" or something similarly vague when what they really want to say is "OH MY GOD THIS DRAWING IS CTHULUS ILLEGITIMATE SPAWN PLEASE BURN IT". I appreciate that nobody gets better by not sharing their work and having it criticised, however nobody improves by having people fawn over them; I can think of a few examples of people who have actually gone on to serialise their crappy artwork and make comics out of it despite the fact it looks like a big pile of my arse (thankfully this tends to be more of a TTC phenomenon than a TMF one) purely because all they've ever had is praise and nobody's had the bottle to say to them "Actually, hang on a sec.... that's not very good". Like I said it's not about naming and shaming people because that would be counter-productive, and it's not my intention to start scaring people away or whatever. A bit of recognition from people that they can always work to improve and a shift in the attitude of the community towards giving such artists the constructive criticism and help they need to do so is what I'm looking for.

 

[Khali]

While I agree with a few points in this thread...

To be brutally honest, if I was a new artist and reader here and read this post (among other things in this thread)...I wouldn't post art here. Or have a very small chance of doing so...

Kh-rap

Time for a signature image switch...yeah, that's the right one, Rayne...

 

[Headsnap]

Well good, that'd save me from having to savage it in Art-Nazi fashion. Because apparently that's what I do :O!

 

[Kalamos]

You appear to have missed the point. As I've already said, it's not about someone's style being cack or my personal preferences when it comes to drawing.

...

But it's not, it's about people who aren't very good at drawing posting their efforts and people licking their bumhole for it and telling them that the horror they have unleashed upon the world is a "nice pic" or something similarly vague when what they really want to say is "OH MY GOD THIS DRAWING IS CTHULUS ILLEGITIMATE SPAWN PLEASE BURN IT".

Well, as far as I am concerned, no, I haven't missed the point.
I simply cannot support it, because - as a directly involved drawing party - I would come off as a complete jerk, telling ppl they suck.

It is not up to me to say that.
If you think they suck, bump something else instead.

You love Tomato Dragon? Go and find TG's pics and bump them.
You love Scavenger? Same thing.
And so on.

I don't want this however legitimate issue to turn into a "X is better than Y" flame - any more than it's already happened.

 

[Rgevskiy]

moonknight80200
Really, the word "popsa" has deeper sense. "Popsa" is illusion of high art. 😉
But I repeat: a popsa it is not bad.

 

[korn_ste]

Snail is way better than me and like it's been said at least on the same level as the Medium Artists in that list,
Keep it up Snail you will be a legend here one day 😉

 

[Rgevskiy]

Well, probably I have belittled SnailShell's level in this list, but he is not High, it is exact. 😛
But, I agree, he very perspective artist now.

 

[laughinggaszone]

You appear to have missed the point. As I've already said, it's not about someone's style being cack or my personal preferences when it comes to drawing; if it were about my preferences then I'd be railing against poser art because I personally hate it.

But it's not, it's about people who aren't very good at drawing posting their efforts and people licking their bumhole for it and telling them that the horror they have unleashed upon the world is a "nice pic" or something similarly vague when what they really want to say is "OH MY GOD THIS DRAWING IS CTHULUS ILLEGITIMATE SPAWN PLEASE BURN IT". I appreciate that nobody gets better by not sharing their work and having it criticised, however nobody improves by having people fawn over them; I can think of a few examples of people who have actually gone on to serialise their crappy artwork and make comics out of it despite the fact it looks like a big pile of my arse (thankfully this tends to be more of a TTC phenomenon than a TMF one) purely because all they've ever had is praise and nobody's had the bottle to say to them "Actually, hang on a sec.... that's not very good". Like I said it's not about naming and shaming people because that would be counter-productive, and it's not my intention to start scaring people away or whatever. A bit of recognition from people that they can always work to improve and a shift in the attitude of the community towards giving such artists the constructive criticism and help they need to do so is what I'm looking for.

I had intended to avoid this mine field, but as a professional comic book artist
(ie. paid by the big two comic companies) I have had to critique new artists on their submissions. In many cases, artists are really suprised (and hurt) to find that their art was not the hot stuff they thought it was. More often than not, they got encouragment from biased sources such as family and friends (not that there aren't family and friends who can be unbiased and honest). This site (and Tickle Theatre to a a slightly lesser degree) is largely the same as the biased and encouraging friends and family members. I rarely see constructive criticism given, mostly because those qualified to give it (artists)
don't. The non artist can tell you what he or she likes about the piece posted, but they can't really guide the artist in directions that will improve their work.

Headsnap raises some valid points. There are a number of artists on this site, whose art is entirely substandard, because they are not adequately trained or have no training at all. Granted, we all start somewhere and many artists are self taught, but there are artists that I have seen posting here for years and their work has not improved by any perceptable degree. I've even offered pointers to some of them. In the end, if they have not improved, it is
because they don't really wish to. Simply wanting it is not enough. You have
to make an effort and strive. Many of these artists are just happy to post their doodles and scribblings. The problem arises when they start to believe
the casual praise thrown their way.

Now I'm sure there are folks raising their hands and saying "But Joe, art like beauty is in the eye of the beholder." "It's all a matter of taste." My response is, would you pay one of these substandard artists your hard earned cash for their work? I'm going to say, no. Now, if you want to prove me wrong, cut a few of them some checks for commission pieces. Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with scribble artists posting their stuff here. But remember, when you give them casual praise, you may be doing them a diservice.
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