Choking

[steph]

Then it's official, I am old! HEE! In my day, as dangerous as it got, we ate a couple mushrooms and watched Pink Floyd's "The Wall" before falling asleep!😀
Just promise me you'll at least ask these girls a few basic health history questions if they ask you for this activity, please, please? I know it sounds horribly paranoid but I'd feel a lot better about all of this. I cannot stand to have this kind of thing on my conscience after the fact when I might have helped prevent a catastrophe...
XOXO

Understood, but again, we're not talking about even restricting breathing a whole lot at all. A very gentle squeeze is all it takes to get some people going, that's what I mean.

 

[Majestic]

Ok. I wasnt gonna even touch this thread but I have to make EXPERT sometime. LOL. Most of you know my S/O. He is the most gentle man I have ever known and I love him to death. Ok...with that said. When we became a little more than friends, we shared our fetishes with one another. Mine was light bondage. I love wearing chokers. They feel sexy to me. I dont know when it began or even how but he touched my throat in a loving way one night and I realized that I wanted just the slightest hint of pressure. He only did it because I provoked it. It was the slightest of pressure and it didnt change my breathing or anything else except excite me a little. I am not into choking for pleasure because everything else he does for me is enough but I have to be honest and say that when he touches my throat and applies just the slightest bit of pressure........IT'S ON!!! Get the toothbrush Daddy...Im all yours. LOL. TMI???? Just wanted to put in my two cents. I dont know why Viper but....it works for some of us.

 

[Dianatklee]

I know a few girls who like that kind of stuff. I haven't tried it yet, but if I did, I would be careful and take the advice given.

Uncle Bill, I think you can relax and trust your girls to make the right decisions, you seem like a great father

 

[ViperGTS]

And I love it! I don't want to hurt her, of course, it's the exact opposite...the idea isn't to really obstruct the airway as much as it is to act out part of a rape fantasy sometimes...the idea of being that out of control that your lover is holding you by your fragile, sensitive neck...

 

[Redmage]

Choking is assault. If a woman were to stop breathing because of it, you would go to jail for manslaughter. When a thread is put on an open forum, I have every right in the world to disagree with it. And sorry if I am being "bitchy." But I have dated too many women who have been physically abused, and in my opinion this type of behaviour crosses the line.

In the opinions of women who like like it, it doesn't. And while it sounds as though this might surprise you, their opinions trump yours.

 

[Italian_Touch]

How many times does it need to be said that we're not talking about actually hurting anyone here?

Clearly, there are people sticking their fingers in their hears and saying "lalalalalalala" (citing Ayla) also in less appropriate settings.

Viper, don't bother. There's nothing you/we can do when somebody does not realize the difference between abuse and consensual play.

And just to add a little bit of spice, I have seen people get CONSENSUALLY hurt (not permanently and nothing major, everything known in advance and between the lines of the "safe, sane, consensual" rule... what about knife-play... what about needle play... blood play, etc.) and LOVE it. Now, if I don't find it attractive/interesting, I just turn my head the other way, and I move on. Being judgemental does not help anybody and does not foster any cause (?).

 

[Italian_Touch]

Just because you mentioned the medical perspective...

Note: I'll be a little bit sarcastic (because I feel like and because I find sad that everytime somebody comes out with some good points which are not just "be spreadeagle on the bed that I am going to get your feet" he/she is systematically turned down... which I find, sorry, quite uneducated) but I'll try not to be too much flaming.

This kind of behavior is risky at best and deadly at worst.

oh yeah... like driving while speaking at the cell phone, run down the stairs... with one difference... there are two hands attached to a body which is supposed to have a brain behind...
I remind you that we have a President who was choking himself with a peanut... now, does it make eating peanuts a risky or deadly behaviour?
Actually, living is so risky that everybody end up dying... go figure...

I've dealt with my share of asphyxiated patients throughout the years (both at their own hands and at the hands of others.)

And how many of them got asphyxiated while engaging in consensual play?

Consensual or not, the list of things that can POTENTIALLY go wrong here

Like when you tie up and tickle someone... (you mentioned asthma... number one concern when you tickle someone... claustrophobia... when you tie up someone... heart conditions... same...). Actually, vanilla sex might get you a heart attack... (and, for what it matters, even thinking about sex with some ugly person could cause you a heart attack...)

Your "chokee" may have pre-existing conditions that you may not be aware of. SHE might not even be aware of them, until in a situation like this. Heart condition, claustrophobia, asthma attacks just to name a few. And, a lot of people during play of any kind might involuntarily jerk big time, simply as reflex~it doesn't take much pressure to injure this area, even if you're trying to act gently.

OK, too many movies and Star Trek fans with the magic touch of Dr Spoke...

1. choking someone to serious condition is not something that happens easily or in few minutes. Get any book of Legal Medicine and you'll find that asphyxiation through strangulation is less easy to achieve than you might think. Little degression: people that are sentenced to death through hanging die because their neck gets broken: so if someone is thinking to that as an example of "fast chocking" s/he is out of track.

2. "choking" as any other form of play does not mean that your are squeezing someone's throat to death... as "spanking" does not mean that you beat up the crap of someone. If you don't get the difference go to any BDSM community and get an education. Then come back and speak up.

3. asphyxiation is, indeed, edge play. Should not be done randomly or with someone who's not well known. That would prevent undisclosed but known pre-existing conditions.

4. If a condition is unknown it can come up in any situation without demonizing a specific activity just because it "tickles" you in the bad way (pun intended). Without considering that unknown pre-existing conditions that might be fatal due to a short term breath control are not too frequent (doesn't mean it can not happen... I remember of a scholar case of electrocution through a tube of a vacuum cleaner stuck in someone's ass... but that's another story...) , if you are REALLY concerned about possible emergencies arising while playing, think about them in advance, get educated about them (what is real and what is fantasy and what to do) and get a safety kit at hand. People DO that... it is education and common sense. Don't you keep a first-aid kit in the house because you might need a band-aid if you use knives in the kitchen? So, if you are really into edge play (which is, btw, not exactely what Viper was talking about...), get a kit with the needs for emergency situations... people, when you play with ropes don't you have a knife close to you for fast release? It's the same common sense...

Again, education can help... know about risks of hypoxia, hyperventilation (after the choking is done), signs and symptoms that are related and that should clearly be avoided, etc. Which points should not be compressed at all, which ones can be pressed for a short period of time, etc. All very important things. Also, trying to learn what the "turn on" is due to (hard to believe, maybe, and long to dig into right now, but it could be just a little of hypoxia that makes an orgasm feel stronger...) You learn the rules and then you play, and you are safe and happy.

Maybe I'm just getting old but somehow this isn't the kind of thing a wise person wants on their resume...to be a punchline at some random party..."Oh, you DO know who I'm talking about! Remember that guy, the one who killed that girl during sex?" "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yeah, THAT guy..."

You crack me... that IS indeed funny... is that the real meaning of the term "sexed out" 🙂

I'm just saying be careful, this is very dangerous territory...
XOXO

I'm 100% with you on that. That's why I don't do it 😉


Hope my bad humor is not going to cause heartburns and ulcers to anyone!

 

[drew70]

I agree with unclebill. If a man respected a woman, he wouldn't do this, even if she asked him to. And Lynn, sorry...but no we can't all agree that EVERYTHING is okay between consenting adults. Some things are just wrong and this is one of them. Déjà vu, anybody?

 

[chicago]

I don't get it.

Viper's not even talking about choking here. He's talking about simulating choking. And people who are into all types of bondage, tickle <b>torture</b> and who knows what other kind of bdsm activity, are saying "Oh no, no respectable person would do that. That's crossing the line." *finger wag*

Ridiculous.

 

[Redmage]

I don't get it.

Viper's not even talking about choking here. He's talking about simulating choking.

Actually, based on his edits to his first post, it sounds as though he's talking about putting a certain amount of pressure on the carotid arteries. These are two large vessels in the neck, running to either side of the "voice box" from your collarbones to just under your ears. If someone places a hand on your throat and squeezes the sides (not the front) as he describes, they'll be pressing on your carotids.

If done correctly this is a good deal safer than ligature strangulation (that is, using a cord) or anything else that places pressure on the front of the throat. Carotid pressure is the basis of most non-lethal/less lethal chokes in the martial arts (so-called "sleeper holds").

What makes pressure on the throat deadly is usually damage to the trachea. Once the windpipe breaks death tends to come quickly unless there's a paramedic or doctor ready to hand. Asphyxiation per se takes quite a while in most cases. Death or serious injury in cases like that usually results from autoerotic play - someone using some kind of breath control on themselves as part of masturbation. They pass out before they can remove/loosen whatever is cutting off their air, and then they die. This isn't usually a risk with a partner present, as long as the method used doesn't risk damage to the trachea.

 

[ViperGTS]

I've never known anyone that was into this when they weren't having sex. I've only been asked to do this right before orgasm because it makes it more intense. Are you saying that you know people that enjoy this outside of the bedroom?

Yes. The other night I was out to a movie with someone I'm starting to get close with. She had been flirting and making fun of me all night, and I knew, since she mentioned before, that's she loves bondage and being controlled. She also mentioned she likes to be held by her neck.

As we got out to my truck, I put my hand on her neck and basically slammed her against the side of the truck, making sure her head didn't whack the window. Her eyes closed, she gasped, and her knees pretty much gave out. The next few minutes were intense...no sex was involved, but damn did that get her in the mood to make out.

 

[jaba]

Hey unclebill....

Bless you...I understand your sentiments, and it is clear that you are looking at this topic from the perspective of one who is a father, and who has the upmost respect and concern for our women here....that is not a bad thing, we need more of that sentiment around here.....

That being said, just looking at the thread as an outsider, I don't think Vipers post had any malicious intent, or implied any non consensual activity.....

But I understand your sentiments......I have a lot of lady friends who work for bdsm fetish clubs, and I wince when I see them sometimes come back and say hello to me, fresh from bdsm sessions, with fresh bruises and cuts, and they have body parts that are red and swollen, and sometimes I am scared to hug them for fear of injuring them further....

But you know what? They are smiling and joking as they tell me about the funny nuances of the sessions.....its all consensual, and the ladies actually enjoy some of the sessions (and believe me, uncle bill, your "Rose" can dish out as much as she can take! 😛 )

So as long as the play is consensual, and the proper saftey protocols are observed, you and I may wince a little at the prospect of our lady friends getting hurt, because we care about them, but I think our ladies will be ok...... 🙂

 

[lk70]

I agree with unclebill. If a man respected a woman, he wouldn't do this, even if she asked him to. And Lynn, sorry...but no we can't all agree that EVERYTHING is okay between consenting adults. Some things are just wrong and this is one of them. Déjà vu, anybody?

Oh I just knew you'd show up eventually and I knew just what you'd say too.

I really do resent people who try to tell others (particularly me) that they're wrong when the issue at hand is just plain none of their business. Granted, Viper brought it up and as an open discussion forum it's cool for anyone who wants to to chime in with an opinion. I just wish we could all stay away from the judgment. Viper didn't ask if we thought it was ok, just if we were into it.

And all most wonderful karma to Jaba for realizing we girls can take care of ourselves.

 

[ViperGTS]

Let's face it, it's not like I'm maliciously trying to hurt anyone. If she gets uncomfortable with it, if I'm actually hurting her, she's going to let me know...and if I get slapped, then it's my own damned fault.

Like they said above me here, the woman can take care of herself.

 

[Redmage]

If she asks for this, then how is it disrespectful?

Ummmm... Everything between consenting adults **is** okay.

And finally, you think torture is perfectly fine, but not this??? Seriously???

This is an old and rancorous debate here. There's a small but vocal minority on the forum who interpret chivalry to mean that women can't necessarily be trusted to know what's best for themselves. To such a person, if what a woman wants lies outside his personal comfort zone, then it's wrong even for someone with a broader comfort zone to give it to her.

It's a classic failure of boundaries: the person who can't clearly distinguish between his own preferences and moral laws. This is just sexual orthodoxy rather than religious orthodoxy.

 

[drew70]

Oh I just knew you'd show up eventually and I knew just what you'd say too.

I really do resent people who try to tell others (particularly me) that they're wrong when the issue at hand is just plain none of their business. Granted, Viper brought it up and as an open discussion forum it's cool for anyone who wants to to chime in with an opinion. I just wish we could all stay away from the judgment. Viper didn't ask if we thought it was ok, just if we were into it.

And all most wonderful karma to Jaba for realizing we girls can take care of ourselves.

Come on Lynn, I never told you that you were wrong. You asked a question, "Can't we all agree...?" so I answered. And for the record, what's so bad about making judgements? We all make judgements every day, especially about actions people do. People post stories of questionable actions all the time, from cruelty to animals to firing somebody unjustly. Judging actions and the people who do them is virtually an every-day occurance here at the TMF. Yet when it comes to a man choking a woman, I'm suddenly not permitted to voice a less-than-supportive opinion? How would doing so in any way imply that women can't take care of themselves?

 

[jaba]

And all most wonderful karma to Jaba for realizing we girls can take care of ourselves.

Yeah, I thought I was weird, but the deviously kinky things some of you ladies are into STILL make me worry......and wince.....

Ladies are strange..... 😛

 

[drew70]

If she asks for this, then how is it disrespectful?

Well if we're still talking about choking and asphyxiation, I'd say it's inherently disrespectful. It's disrespecting her health, her ability to breathe, not to mention her dignity as a person. Hard to believe this even requires explanation.

Ummmm... Everything between consenting adults **is** okay.

Others have said this, but after a while they always end up amending it to "Everything between consenting adults is okay as long as..." I see you haven't started your own "as long as" list. Trust me, you'll have one in no time and it'll get longer as the discussion continues, assuming it's permited to do so.

And finally, you think torture is perfectly fine, but not this??? Seriously???

Did you read me saying that somewhere? "Torture" is a pretty broad term, dude. I find it okay in some circumstances, not so okay in others. Seriously!!!

 

[lk70]

Some things are just wrong and this is one of them. Déjà vu, anybody?

Come on Lynn, I never told you that you were wrong.

Did too, did too! 😛

Boing, fwip!

 

[jaba]

I see this now. 🙂 So it has nothing to do with respecting the women... It's just what they're comfortable or uncomfortable with, but they're not saying that because it doesn't sound as noble. Got it.


Let me lead by example then. Regardless of what I enjoy doing or what I'm willing to do, I think that two consenting adults have every right to do whatever the hell they want to in private. If you ever catch me starting an "as long as" list, please call me on it. Until then... You're wrong.


In private with someone into it: okay. On the street with a stranger: not okay. Seriously.

Ok, its starting to get real close to someone calling the "bullshit" card on some of these comments.....the line between what is, and what is not acceptable between two consenting adults may be a thin and whispy one, but there is a line, and to state otherwise is rediculous.....

If two idiots decide to make a snuff film....that's a pretty obvious "no no " to most of us here......creating your own personal amputee for your fetish may invite law enforcement scrutiny too, in many quarters....

A list of prohibited "play" between "consenting adults" can get quite long, absent the application of a little common sense....lets not lose common sense just to win a thread arguement...

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Ok, its starting to get real close to someone calling the "bullshit" card on some of these comments.....the line between what is, and what is not acceptable between two consenting adults may be a thin and whispy one, but there is a line, and to state otherwise is rediculous.....

If two idiots decide to make a snuff film....that's a pretty obvious "no no " to most of us here......creating your own personal amputee for your fetish may invite law enforcement scrutiny too, in many quarters....

A list of prohibited "play" between "consenting adults" can get quite long, absent the application of a little common sense....lets not lose common sense just to win a thread arguement...

Actually,their could arguably be no line to what is unacceptable, if you ask those two people. Where you and myself might draw a line is one thing, but where they draw the line can be a very different thing. It becomes somewhat subjective. Do i think everybody has a line? Sure. Hell, i know more then a few people who would easily draw the line before tickling, either as the person being tickled, or the person doing the tickling, but we would obviously have no problem crossing that line.

Legally though, yes, their are always going to be lines, but then we are somewhat changing the subject from "What two concenting people can do" to "What two concenting people can legally do".

 

[jaba]

Actually,their could arguably be no line to what is unacceptable, if you ask those two people. Where you and myself might draw a line is one thing, but where they draw the line can be a very different thing. It becomes somewhat subjective. Do i think everybody has a line? Sure. Hell, i know more then a few people who would easily draw the line before tickling, either as the person being tickled, or the person doing the tickling, but we would obviously have no problem crossing that line.

Legally though, yes, their are always going to be lines, but then we are somewhat changing the subject from "What two concenting people can do" to "What two concenting people can legally do".

Exactly......

This is where my previous comments about common sense come in to play.....

Just because two "consenting" idiots don't have a "line" between them as to what is "acceptable", does not mean there is not a common sense "acceptable" mode of behavior to the 99.9 percent of the other folks around.....there are not many limits to consensual adult play, nor perhaps should there be.....but there is a common sense range of acceptability, even to the most extreme players....

 

[jaba]

I don't think it is ridiculous. If two people want to snuff each other out behind closed doors and they're both willing participants, it doesn't affect me. It's none of my business.

Regardless of what "it" is... It may not be something I'd want to be a part of, but what's okay for others doesn't need to be okay for me. And conversely, what's okay for me doesn't need to be okay for others.

Why is this such a difficult concept for some people to grasp?

Ok, forgive me....I thought that part of the argument was what is "common sense" "acceptable" play between consenting adults.....

But if you find both "common sense" and "acceptable" two adults consenting to an actual snuff scenario, what more is there to say?

Maybe I'm ridiculous for seeing the "play" of two "actual snuff scenario" morons as "ridiculous"... and "unacceptable".....

 

[jaba]

Actually, I thought your introduction of the snuff subject was pretty out there for what we're discussing... Obviously that's an extreme and doesn't apply to what we're talking about here.

Well, if you truly stand by the statements you make here, and your words are not just for decoration to make the "anything goes" crowd cheer, then your statement that two consenting adults should be able to do "anything the hell they want", as long as its "consensual", and they don't bother you, shows that apparently such activity is not so "obviously out there and extreme for some here.....

Honestly though, "common sense" and "acceptable" are subjective. These are things that you define based on your own beliefs and then try to make the status quo... The word common implies a majority. Acceptable... Acceptable to whom?

Acceptable to those who have the "common sense" to realize that there are limits to consensual activity....it may be fine to pontificate that anything "consensual" goes, and is fine with you, but I think most folks have the capacity to say that some consensual activity is in fact "unacceptable", without trying to squeeze through some weaving maze of semantics to make every consensual activity ok, just because two adults agree with it......

Judgement is not a "crime" in all cases.....not even here....its ok to say that two morons who agree to an actual "snuff" scenario are engaging in unacceptable behavior....unless you actually believe otherwise.....

Regardless of the semantics of this and my not so common beliefs, I think we both agree that there's nothing wrong with two consenting adults doing what they want to do so long as they respect each other's boundaries (which kinda falls under the consent part of that).

Nope.....actually we don't agree on that....and depending upon the type of "consensual" activity, you and I may disagree vociferiously on this matter...

Getting back on topic... If it makes a woman hot, I think it's good. 🙂

[/quote]

And if it makes the woman "dead", then I don't care how "hot" the thought of the activity makes her, or how "consensual" it is.......it's not cool, its in fact ridiculous, and I have no problem being "judgemental" and saying so.....

 

[drew70]

I see this now. 🙂 So it has nothing to do with respecting the women... It's just what they're comfortable or uncomfortable with, but they're not saying that because it doesn't sound as noble. Got it.

On the contrary, it has nothing to do with my own comfort and everything to do with respecting the women as I've already explained. Once you grasp this, you will indeed have gotten it. If you think it's okay to treat women this way, for whatever reason, I doubt you'll ever come to that point.

If you were doing it without her consent, then it would be outright assault. But if you're doing it because she has asked you to, then you're respecting her wishes.

You'd be respecting her wishes, but you'd not be respecting her person. Choking a person simply is not a sign of respect, regardless of consent. Nor will it ever be.

Just because being choked is linked to *your* dignity, doesn't mean that she interprets it the same way. It's also very situational.

Being choked is not linked to *my* dignity at all, nor is my dignity at issue here. Like most people, I would say that NOT being choked would be a much truer link to anybody's dignity.

Let me lead by example then. Regardless of what I enjoy doing or what I'm willing to do, I think that two consenting adults have every right to do whatever the hell they want to in private. If you ever catch me starting an "as long as" list, please call me on it. Until then... You're wrong.

So as far as you're concerned, two people conspiring murder in private is okay? Two consenting adults fondling a child in private is okay? Two consenting adults plotting an act of terrorism is okay? You did say "anything," didn't you?