death penalty

[ForgottenTcklr]

We should just stick all of the criminals in a room together, and see what happens!

 

[Iggy pop]

Re: Fuck That Shit...

I need to be in charge and I need to be a damn judge. It's high time we start deleting the wiswired from society.


Tron

One word: NO

 

[Iggy pop]

The problem with Life without Parole is that jails get crowded, behavior is top-notch, and break-outs occur so that our friendly neighborhood killer is now once again roaming the streets.

The problem with the Death Penalty is that innocent people die. I admit it is rare but it does happen. But if someone is executed and then exonerated by DNA evidence what do you do? "OPPS sorry about. It will not happen again." If they are still in prison you can possibly give them somewhat of a life back. As for the Snipers they are probably dead no matter what. If they are not killed by the government, the will probably get whacked in prison like Jeffery Dahmer. Probably after they have been analy raped few times. Maximum security prison isn't exactly the playground.

 

[BigJim]

Thanks, Joby, for the tip o' the cap.

OFF TOPIC ALERT! Jim, maybe we should start another thread, but I can't let your KKK/racist comment stand without challenge. Tell me, how many members of HM Govt are Black? Not Labour back benchers, but members of the Govt. I'll tell you - one - in a minor role, and he just got there this past summer. OTOH, we have Colin Powell, who could be a serious candidate for President if he wanted the job. Condi Rice on Bush's staff, J. C. Watts in the House of Rep - and that's just the Republicans. Lots more in the Democrat Party. Feel free to throw stones at our govt - Lord knows I've done enough of that myself - but please, do some research first.

We now return to our regularly scheduled thread.

Strelnikov

Oy! How many times do I have to say that things I talk about have nothing to do with nationality? How many times do I have to say that I'd like to application of a lot things the world over? How many f***ing times do I have to say that I'm not an overtly pro-British American basher? Try reading everything I write before you leap in with a critiscism Strel and if you want to to talk about research, why don't you try comparing comparative populations? Some 3 or 4% of the British population is non-caucasian. In the USA, non caucasians outnumber caucasians. Just one group, the afro-americans will be outnumbering the caucasians before the end of this decade if current stats keep going the way they do. Perhaps that might be a slightly HUGE clue as to why there are less ethnic people by percentage in public services; whereas if you compare the percentages, a higher number of senior civil servants and professional occupations are occupied by ethnic minorities here.

YOU try doing some research, before you accuse me of being biased mate!

 

[Biggles of 266]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread, so perhaps someone has already posted this line of argument.

Who here has the right to take a life? Tron, you say you want to be a judge so you can order executions. How come you get to play god and decide who lives or dies? If anyone can order an execution without having their conscience destroyed, they don't deserve that kind of power.

Biggles

by the way, sorry to single you out Tron, but yours was the quote I saw on the last page which referred to what I wanted to talk about.

 

[Neutron]

Biggles..

Simple, because I guarantee I'll make a murderless, rapeless society.
AND it's my idea.
Whack em and stack em.
I have no problems being the grim reaper if society needs oneand in my mind this society needs one badly. I'm not talking someone working outside the law. Let the courts convict them and I'll sentence them.


Tron

 

[JoBelle]

At the risk of reperating myself, *sigh* It's not a matter of "playing god" but rather of playing "keep the murderer from killing again." I understand that I'm very opinionated about this topic--irrationally to some and steadfast to others. Please remember that I'm not meaning to be insulting, but rather that I cannot really take away my passion when it's this particular topic.

How come you get to play god and decide who lives or dies?

You want to discuss matters of conscience? Ever seen a man who raped and killed a child, Biggles? Imagine it throroughly in your head. THEN tell me who was "playing god" in their actions.So why don't you tell us what you would have done with a baby killer. I'm waiting for the "let's rahabilitate him" speech.

Life IS precious, that is why we are so absorbed in the idea of CP. Frankly, if you do anything to the man, you're interrupting his life beyong his control and YOU ARE playing God by doing that. There are no degrees to "godliness" when you're talking about life interrupted. How about a guy who brutally stabs a woman 80 times in front of her kid? Houw about that? How about you tell us what is a justifiable punishment for that? And remember, you can't "play god."

Joby

 

[BigJim]

I think what you're failing to realize is a punishment should equal the crime. Call it an eye for an eye if you will. Personally, I think that's how things should be.

"Failing to realise?" From any one else like Darth Tron over there, that would sound a lot different. Coming from you it does sound less arrogant, but no less suprising. I really do get the feeling that you've been personally touched by these circumstances. A lot of people think that to equal the crime, it doesn't have to duplicate it. A lot of people believe that you can gain vengeance/justice by other methods. Their opinions aren't wrong or right. Like yours, they're just different.

I'd be willing to bet that a considerable majority of people in the USA would vote in favour of capital punishment if there was a referendum. However, those people then should'nt suprised if their crime and murder rates especially never go down.

I think a way more effective strategy would be to take the "alternative medicine" route. The extremely ineffective modern medicine doesn't give an arse about health. The average doctor can't be bothered to see you if you're not already sick. The best way to treat sickness is to make sure you never get ill in the first place, which is what holistic medicine and alternative therapies often deal in. The way it equates to this debate is to treat the causes of crime more than the crime itself. What is the biggest cause of crime? There could be many suggestions, but I'd guess the answer to be poverty. America and Britain could do a lot worse than treating that illness at source than waiting until it's too bloody late and then trying to treat the symptoms.

 

[Iggy pop]

In the USA, non caucasians outnumber caucasians. Just one group, the afro-americans will be outnumbering the caucasians before the end of this decade if current stats keep going the way they do.

I have never seen this statistic before. In America the largest growing population is not the African American population, but the Latino Population.

 

[Iggy pop]

I'm waiting for the "let's rahabilitate him" speech.

No I am not say rehabilitate him, but let him die in prison. Yes, there are people that have been saved from lethal injection at the last minute by DNA evidence. There have been people executed that have later been exonerated by DNA evidence. That is my biggest problem with the Death Penalty.

In addition someone who spends his life in prison may have some chance of redemption. Not with society, but with God. If you believe in such things.

 

[BigJim]

I have never seen this statistic before. In America the largest growing population is not the African American population, but the Latino Population.

Quite possibly IP. When I said "Just one group, the afro-americans will be outnumbering the caucasians before the end of this decade if current stats keep going the way they do." I didn't mean that just afro-Americans were growing. It was a mis-placed "just" I guess, because it gave the impression I was excluding other races. The real meaning of the "just" was to isolate the A-A race, not singularise it.🙂

 

[Iggy pop]

Quite possibly IP. When I said "Just one group, the afro-americans will be outnumbering the caucasians before the end of this decade if current stats keep going the way they do." I didn't mean that just afro-Americans were growing. It was a mis-placed "just" I guess, because it gave the impression I was excluding other races. The real meaning of the "just" was to isolate the A-A race, not singularise it.🙂

Jim, I think you may be mistaken. According the Census Burea, caucasions will still outnumber African American by the end of the decade. It is quite possible it may be that the Latino Population may outnumber the caucasion population by the end of the decade. Where are you getting your statistics from?

 

[BigJim]

Jim, I think you may be mistaken. According the Census Burea, caucasions will still outnumber African American by the end of the decade. It is quite possible it may be that the Latino Population may outnumber the caucasion population by the end of the decade. Where are you getting your statistics from?

It was some population survey thingy being done in DC. There was a news release about it on CNN a few weeks ago.

 

[Biggles of 266]

At the risk of reperating myself, *sigh* It's not a matter of "playing god" but rather of playing "keep the murderer from killing again."

You want to discuss matters of conscience? Ever seen a man who raped and killed a child, Biggles? Imagine it throroughly in your head. THEN tell me who was "playing god" in their actions.So why don't you tell us what you would have done with a baby killer. I'm waiting for the "let's rahabilitate him" speech.

Life IS precious, that is why we are so absorbed in the idea of CP. Frankly, if you do anything to the man, you're interrupting his life beyong his control and YOU ARE playing God by doing that. There are no degrees to "godliness" when you're talking about life interrupted. How about a guy who brutally stabs a woman 80 times in front of her kid? Houw about that? How about you tell us what is a justifiable punishment for that? And remember, you can't "play god."

Joby

Would you be preventing a murderer from killing again if a life sentence was just that, and not just a certain number of years? I don't know if that's how it is in America, but here a 'life sentence' is 15 years. Jail 'til you die is a life sentence.

I'm not saying that murderers and rapists hold the moral high ground. Of course they're not better than you and I. I just think that by killing them, we're lowered to their level. State sponsored murder is the same as state sponsored terrorism. The government still uses your money to kill people, who may or may not be innocent.

Do I get some kind of prize if I don't make the 'let's rehabilitate him' speech?

What about the kid who shot 2 people in the States a couple of days ago, the government is fighting for the right to kill him. I'll sleep better at night knowing that a boy my age is on death row in a maximum security prison, counting the days until his last meal.

Interfering with people's everyday lives isn't 'playing god', it's government, and how the world works. Isn't the giving and taking of life a so-called sacred gift?



However, I realise that I'm relatively young, inexperienced in the big wide cold scary world that we all have to share, and probably pretty idealistic and naive compared to the battle-scarred veterans that inhabit this board.

I may not be right, but at least I have an opinion and I'm making it known.

Biggles

 

[JoBelle]

Well, as expected, everyone is starting to repeat themselves by taking only a few bits and addressing them. I've already touched on Ig's comment, but it went unnoticed I'm assuming. And, Jim, it's time once again to agree to disagree.

I just can't believe that there are people who defend a murderers right to live. I just can't wrap my brain around it. Perhaps I'm unfeeling or inhumane.

Don't you think they knew murder was wrong when they did it??? I get the feeling that the underlying theme against Capital Punishment is that anyone who is in favor of it is somehow looking for "revenge" for a murderers deed. In the end, we all admit that isn't possible. But simply because complete restitution is not possible, that does not imply we should not strive for as much restitution that we can achieve.

Jim, you're suggesting that executing a murderer is committing the crime again. "Repeating it." The implied premise is that the government has no legitimate moral authority to impose any punishment that individuals are prohibited from imposing on others. But if that premise is valid, the entirety of all systems of criminal justice is immoral. We create a social order that gives value to all things. One does not have a "right to life" outside the context of a social order. When a cold-blooded murderer attacks his wife and children with his axe, it is not the same as when the state governed by law later executes this murderer. A child realizes the great difference between the two. But that there are some who do not see this difference and who are unable to see the difference between darkness and light is a disturbing and evil sign.

Not to imply that is your base, Jim. Frankly, I'm not really sure of your reasons against CP. I see that you offer your wishlist of alternatives, but whatis your actual reason behind your objections?

I received comments suggesting that I stop using examples of murders to make my point. I wonder if thinking about the CAUSE of this whole discussion is simply too much to bear. No one wants to admit that children are brutally tortured. No one wants to say outloud, "Yes, well....that murderer who raped that little boy and slit his mothers throat before chopping her to bits in front of her son....well, he's entitled to life just as much as the two people whose lives he destroyed." Why do you not want to think about it?? Because it might make you face the reality that your stance could POSSIBLY be flawed. I use graphic examples in my posts to remind you that that the murderers are not the victims to be held in the arms of humanity. They made a choice to stand outside the social order and they should then be wihtout the comforts of it.

Ahh, well, I've said as much as I think could make my view valid. At night, we all have to sleep with our conscience. I'm ok with mine.

Joby

 

[Haltickling]

Although we have rather 'human' penitentiary procedures (whatever that may mean...), a life sentence lasts for a minimum of 25 years here in Germany. There is even a law for particularly hideous killers (serial murders, sadistic killings, criminals who killed to cover up other killings) that confines the criminal to so-called 'security detention' afterwards, which literally lasts until death, or at least till a helpless life in a wheelchair or hospital bed. There are special 'closed departments' whithin jails for those. But here as well as elsewhere, many criminals may get free because of an ill-guided or over-zealous therapist. Again, humans make mistakes, in more than one aspect...

 

[BigJim]

For Joby-Wan

I know of some horrific practices that go on with child abuse. I know of people who rear children specifically to sexually abuse and murder them. I've heard described in graphic detail what is done to them and why.

Would I shed a tear if the same was metted out to the offenders. Doubtful. I would'nt do it back to them though. I guess my reasons turning away from capital punishment when I used to be it's biggest advocator are largely spiritual. I don't believe that killing a murderer will solve anything long term. I don't think it will make such incidents less frequent in our society; just that it'll pass the buck onto the next generation. Heaven and hell may be all very good, but there are some things that can only be negated on this side of life. I don't believe in the rights of the criminals, my reasons for being against capital punishment aren't for the criminals sake; it's for humanities sake as a whole. Yes I believe that the offenders should be punished. But I don't believe that the jail exists soley as a punishment. I also believe that more should be done to stop crimes before they happen, as opposed to dealing with the symptoms later on.

I don't think it comes down to morals at all. Morals don't exist really. Just acts that create positive energy and acts that create negative energy. I believe that executions leaves negative energy lying around for us to deal with and then creates more for those to come. It's not a question of taking the moral high ground, just what is more likely to raise society above the vermin pit it's become.

I am more than willing to seek out gory details about what happens to children, in fact I deliberatley put myself in thwe way of such information. I more and more get the impression that you've had personal contact with something like this Joby, but even though I havn't what I know would shock even you. Some of the greatest murderers and paedophiles in history are people that draw huge public respect, but what they've gotten up to in private is sickening. What is the best long term strategy for dealing with them? I hope I can work it out, but I am certain that it isn't by creating just as much negative energy back at them. They will pay the price and hopefully, we will be free.

 

[kurchatovium]

I think there are cases that deserve Capital Punisment because of the brutality and savagery of the crime. Timothy Mcveigh is a good example, as is Ted Bundy, Richard Speck (although he didn't get the death penalty), Richard Ramirez, etc. I agree with Jobelle totally on this issue when a crime is so inhumane and vicious then the punishment should fit the crime.

 

[Strelnikov]

Quoting Jim again:
"In the USA, non caucasians outnumber caucasians. Just one group, the afro-americans will be outnumbering the caucasians before the end of this decade if current stats keep going the way they do."

Look at some real info from the Census Bureau, not a half assed story on CNN. Right now, Blacks are about 12% of our pop. Hispanics about 12%. Whites about 75% (non-Hispanic Whites, 70%.) Others about 6%. Link here:
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

As for CP, Joby's right. We're repeating ourselves. I'm out.

Strelnikov

 

[Iggy pop]

Well, as expected, everyone is starting to repeat themselves by taking only a few bits and addressing them. I've already touched on Ig's comment, but it went unnoticed I'm assuming.

No not unnoticed, I just happen to disagree. I think the possiblity of executing someone innocent is too great, but you happen to disagree.

 

[BigJim]

Look at some real info from the Census Bureau, not a half assed story on CNN.

Maybe it was a reference to a particular state then. *shrugs*

 

[BigJim]

I think the possiblity of executing someone innocent is too great, but you happen to disagree.

I don't think she disagrees, just thinks the sacrifice is worth it.

 

[JoBelle]

I don't think she disagrees, just thinks the sacrifice is worth it.

Well, there is the beauty Jim..we might disagree, but at least we understand each other.

Joby...following Strel.

 

[BigJim]

Well, there is the beauty Jim..we might disagree, but at least we understand each other.

I'm sure we always will. I'm just sad that someone who is as wonderful a person as you are, believes that knowingly sacrificeing innocents on the altar of legal incompetence is worth the ends. As the guy playing the Pope in End Of Days said.............

"If we willingly murder the innocent, then we do not deserve salvation".

 

[JoBelle]

I'm sure we always will. I'm just sad that someone who is as wonderful a person as you are, believes that knowingly sacrificeing innocents on the altar of legal incompetence is worth the ends. As the guy playing the Pope in End Of Days said.............
"If we willingly murder the innocent, then we do not deserve salvation".

Well, thanks for that backhanded compliment. lol

It's not a matter of sacrifincing anyone TO THE ALTAR OF LEGAL INCOMPETENCE. I just happen to think, as noted in my previous post, that sometimes we as a society must realize that just because we cannot reach perfection does not mean we should give up on something that is better than nothing at all.

People die everyday on highways. Do we stop driving cars? We know for a FACT that people will die every year at the hands of other drivers, yet we all make a daily decision to get behind the wheel of a car for convenience's sake. It's not like that is even a crap shoot. It's fact. People WILL DIE who shouldn't....all for us not having to walk or take a bike. I jsut don't understand how we can sacrifice people in the name of Ford, Honda, and Volvo but not in the name of keeping murderers off the streets.

Just a simple example of how absurd the argument is.

Joby...not a pawn of the system, just someone trying to make it work the best way an error-making human can.