Establish a voluntary 3rd party vetting service

[Kalba]

It's also not hard to have honest people establish themselves.

Its really not hard for someone to pose as male or female, even if they are proven to be the other. If i was really desperate to prove i was a woman, i could get a random friend to supply pertinent info

Chat is fine the way it is, Get ID and proof of billing address if you want proof they are female or not

Why start trying to prove a negative? Many chatroom participants have been to NESTs, a gathering or have been with people who have. The community itself is the best way of vetting. And several posters have already pointed out that the legitimate are pretty well known. All I'm saying is why make it a secret or confined to those in the know. Makes no sense to me.

Kalba

 

[TMF Jeff]

So far you've made a lot of generalizations I think, about how it could be done. But I think you haven't really addressed my points about what it would actually be like to try to do this. So let me ask you this... if this was your forum, and your responsibility, what EXACTLY would you do if you were going to set up a verification system?

 

[Kalba]

start a list of known vetted people within the community and add to it.

So far you've made a lot of generalizations I think, about how it could be done. But I think you haven't really addressed my points about what it would actually be like to try to do this. So let me ask you this... if this was your forum, and your responsibility, what EXACTLY would you do if you were going to set up a verification system?

Pick already vetted volunteers from TMF to evaluate claims for the vetting list and follow up if necessary (phone calls, emails, IP address review). Whatever works for the claimant that meets the straight face test for TMF vetters. Ever try to open a new credit card at a furniture store Jeff? They call a credit card company who looks at your credit record and asks you addresses you haven't lived at in 15 years, you miss the question? no problem they ask you something else. If you miss enough, pretty clear you aren't who you say you are.

If you were vetting me right now, I would give the names of 3 well known people in the community I know and have either spoken with or met (NEST or elsewhere). For another person, it might be something different. It's not a cookie cutter. I don't think I can give you one. And it's not the way most vetting systems operate. Yet, if there is value in helping to authenticate the chatroom experience simply by maintaining a list of known or established people, not trying to stop every fraud, the incentive is there for legitimate people to establish themselves. I see it as an extension of "no profile, no chat". And Jeff, please accept that my post is intended in good faith. And if you believe that I am trolling. The accept my apology, not my intent.

Kalba.

 

[asutickler]

I don't really get why anyone would go to all this trouble... Once you get to know someone a little bit, you can "vet" them yourself with a phone call or audio/video chat or something. Or just go to gatherings and network a little... You'd be really surprised how many folks you get to know secondhand.

For the record, I've got tons of folks who can vouch that I am indeed a rhinoceros.

 

[RobAce]

Here is my problem with a "vetting" process.

Many within this community already feel "edgy", "out of the norm", or "timid" about their fetish. So a new person IF they wanted to go into the chatroom first has to decide to "come out" and register. Then secondly would have to get to know or become "vetted" by people they do not know, already having a hard of enough time coming out and just posting in the first place. Also some people WANT the secrecy, and prefer not to have contact other than chats or IM.

Also, what happens with personal information such as personal emails, phone numbers, real names IF someone finds that information somehow or by accident (it has happened) gets out.

I think as adults we should police ourselves. If something seems out of place, if something does not pass the smell test, then there should be a reason to believe someone is not whom they claim to be. Chatroom users can help each other by talking amongst each other and comparing notes on particular people they may have concerns with. And if there begins to be a lot, then take it to a moderator. They have handled situations like this before. I know of a few ways, but I hesitate to say exactly what they are because I do not know if I should be saying it or not....it may be a trade secret of the great TZAR.

I know its a pain in the ass to be chatting with someone, having some fun cybering then to start seeing the person is not that hot girl with perfect size 6 feet and 36DD breasts, but a 47 year old guy with size 16 feet and the same 36DD breasts. But the TMF simply should not start "vetting" people in the chatroom for something that people will find a way around. Whether its the jokester that gets his girlfriend in on the joke, or just someone that has someone else sign up for him on lark one day and continues to use it long after.

The best way to "vett" people is a personal process. Each person should be sure who they are talking to before they do it. To create some panel of approval would be a hindrance and a possible barrier to new members who like I said before, already are unsure about coming out so to speak in the first place...and now they are being asked to "prove who they are" before they can utter one hello in the chatroom? I think that is doing the community a disservice, may turn a lot of people off from using the chatroom if they have to jump through hoops just to participate. Registering is normal, but to add extra to that for chatroom privileges I think is a bit too much.

Its a great idea in theory to "vett" people, but in practice I think the problems outweigh any benefit to the community at large.

The other thing of a voluntary list is that, then the people who do not want to be "vetted" for perhaps very good reasons, will then be suspect and will be grilled by people in the chatroom or just flat out ignored. Not a great way to make friends and influence people. Kind of like at jobs where someone stole money and the bosses ask for everyone who wants to prove they didn't do it take a polygraph. Yeah sure you don't have to do it to keep your job, but the ones that do will have an easier time at work and no suspicious eyes cast on them.


That's my dollar and two cents.

Rob

 

[Goodieluver]

Why start trying to prove a negative? Many chatroom participants have been to NESTs, a gathering or have been with people who have. The community itself is the best way of vetting. And several posters have already pointed out that the legitimate are pretty well known. All I'm saying is why make it a secret or confined to those in the know. Makes no sense to me.

Kalba

I have not been to any gathering

I have met 2 person from this forum which if you want to argue will support or is here or not is questionable. I have 2-3 other people i have spoken to on a rare based frequency.

Am i a male or female? I can support evidence to prove both

Will i not be allowed in unless i prove to you or some other person multiple forms of identification?

It seems to be a reason for someone who is mad to be fooled by someone who was male who said they were fem.

Typically its very easy to pick up on that

Chat is fine, live and learn

 

[Goodieluver]

I don't really get why anyone would go to all this trouble... Once you get to know someone a little bit, you can "vet" them yourself with a phone call or audio/video chat or something. Or just go to gatherings and network a little... You'd be really surprised how many folks you get to know secondhand.

For the record, I've got tons of folks who can vouch that I am indeed a rhinoceros.

Amen

I'll just PM random men and women for whatever frills i want, screw chat

 

[Kalba]

I guess I wouldn't anything so invasive or so personal. That's really what it comes

Here is my problem with a "vetting" process.

Many within this community already feel "edgy", "out of the norm", or "timid" about their fetish. So a new person IF they wanted to go into the chatroom first has to decide to "come out" and register. Then secondly would have to get to know or become "vetted" by people they do not know, already having a hard of enough time coming out and just posting in the first place. Also some people WANT the secrecy, and prefer not to have contact other than chats or IM.

Also, what happens with personal information such as personal emails, phone numbers, real names IF someone finds that information somehow or by accident (it has happened) gets out.

I think as adults we should police ourselves. If something seems out of place, if something does not pass the smell test, then there should be a reason to believe someone is not whom they claim to be. Chatroom users can help each other by talking amongst each other and comparing notes on particular people they may have concerns with. And if there begins to be a lot, then take it to a moderator. They have handled situations like this before. I know of a few ways, but I hesitate to say exactly what they are because I do not know if I should be saying it or not....it may be a trade secret of the great TZAR.

I know its a pain in the ass to be chatting with someone, having some fun cybering then to start seeing the person is not that hot girl with perfect size 6 feet and 36DD breasts, but a 47 year old guy with size 16 feet and the same 36DD breasts. But the TMF simply should not start "vetting" people in the chatroom for something that people will find a way around. Whether its the jokester that gets his girlfriend in on the joke, or just someone that has someone else sign up for him on lark one day and continues to use it long after.

The best way to "vett" people is a personal process. Each person should be sure who they are talking to before they do it. To create some panel of approval would be a hindrance and a possible barrier to new members who like I said before, already are unsure about coming out so to speak in the first place...and now they are being asked to "prove who they are" before they can utter one hello in the chatroom? I think that is doing the community a disservice, may turn a lot of people off from using the chatroom if they have to jump through hoops just to participate. Registering is normal, but to add extra to that for chatroom privileges I think is a bit too much.

Its a great idea in theory to "vett" people, but in practice I think the problems outweigh any benefit to the community at large.

The other thing of a voluntary list is that, then the people who do not want to be "vetted" for perhaps very good reasons, will then be suspect and will be grilled by people in the chatroom or just flat out ignored. Not a great way to make friends and influence people. Kind of like at jobs where someone stole money and the bosses ask for everyone who wants to prove they didn't do it take a polygraph. Yeah sure you don't have to do it to keep your job, but the ones that do will have an easier time at work and no suspicious eyes cast on them.


That's my dollar and two cents.

Rob

down to. What do you have to offer up and what do you have to hide. Making poser hide isn't an issue to me since they aren't obeying the rules to start with. Problem is, no enforcement, no rules. It's like a 55 mile an hour speed limit sign in the 1980s. Establishing a list of the legitimate doesn't force anyone to "come out". It just gives an option to those with nothing to hide a way to validate who they are.

Kalba

 

[Kalba]

I guess you missed my point. There is no cookie cutter much as it would be nice.

I have not been to any gathering

I have met 2 person from this forum which if you want to argue will support or is here or not is questionable. I have 2-3 other people i have spoken to on a rare based frequency.

Am i a male or female? I can support evidence to prove both

Will i not be allowed in unless i prove to you or some other person multiple forms of identification?

It seems to be a reason for someone who is mad to be fooled by someone who was male who said they were fem.

Typically its very easy to pick up on that

Chat is fine, live and learn

If you knew or know someone credible with Jeff, Myriads, Amanda or whoever, fine validate yourself or don't. That's up to you. Point is if you want to vett yourself, you should have that choice. And Chatroom participants should have some protection from posers. Raising red herrings and strawmen does nothing to address the issues at hand. Again, simply maintaining a list that is voluntary doesn't raise any of the 1984 arguments you present. Respond to the proposal.

Kalba.

 

[CrystalLight]

If you knew or know someone credible with Jeff, Myriads, Amanda or whoever, fine validate yourself or don't. That's up to you. Point is if you want to vett yourself, you should have that choice. And Chatroom participants should have some protection from posers. Raising red herrings and strawmen does nothing to address the issues at hand. Again, simply maintaining a list that is voluntary doesn't raise any of the 1984 arguments you present. Respond to the proposal.

Kalba.

lol.

"Respond to the proposal."

Okay.

I think it's a whacked idea, that has no viable possibility of even working. Ever. You say that chat-room participants should have protection? Okay. Protect yourself. The chatroom is not some government mandated function that needs to be in use to maintain a balance in everyday society. Especially THIS chatroom.

If *you* want to create your *OWN* application process, that will allow member's the once in a lifetime golden opportunity to chat or even cyber (which is what the main reason of this is for, I'm betting) with you, then go for it!

I admire your diligence, but it's useless. Own up to the defeat and keep on keeping on, guy.. or girl.

What? I couldn't resist that one.

 

[Kalba]

I guess that's one way to respond.

lol.

"Respond to the proposal."

Okay.

I think it's a whacked idea, that has no viable possibility of even working. Ever. You say that chat-room participants should have protection? Okay. Protect yourself. The chatroom is not some government mandated function that needs to be in use to maintain a balance in everyday society. Especially THIS chatroom.

If *you* want to create your *OWN* application process, that will allow member's the once in a lifetime golden opportunity to chat or even cyber (which is what the main reason of this is for, I'm betting) with you, then go for it!

I admire your diligence, but it's useless. Own up to the defeat and keep on keeping on, guy.. or girl.

What? I couldn't resist that one.

When you are short on ideas just attack the proposer instead of the proposal and lord knows gotta have those red herrings and strawmen. Beats thinking.

Kalba

 

[venray]

Pick already vetted volunteers from TMF to evaluate claims for the vetting list and follow up if necessary (phone calls, emails, IP address review). Whatever works for the claimant that meets the straight face test for TMF vetters. Ever try to open a new credit card at a furniture store Jeff? They call a credit card company who looks at your credit record and asks you addresses you haven't lived at in 15 years, you miss the question? no problem they ask you something else. If you miss enough, pretty clear you aren't who you say you are.

If you were vetting me right now, I would give the names of 3 well known people in the community I know and have either spoken with or met (NEST or elsewhere). For another person, it might be something different. It's not a cookie cutter. I don't think I can give you one. And it's not the way most vetting systems operate. Yet, if there is value in helping to authenticate the chatroom experience simply by maintaining a list of known or established people, not trying to stop every fraud, the incentive is there for legitimate people to establish themselves. I see it as an extension of "no profile, no chat". And Jeff, please accept that my post is intended in good faith. And if you believe that I am trolling. The accept my apology, not my intent.

Kalba.

most well known members are not going to give up time to verify gender so guys know who they are playing with in chat.....

There are a lot better things to do with one's time...

If you have a problem with chatting with folks you cant prove are male or female, then vett them yourself....

meet at a munch or gathering or exchange numbers with those that will do so, but dont put it on the forum and its mods and members to do it for you..

 

[Kalba]

Well, as I predicted, there is a way but not the will

...., but dont put it on the forum and its mods and members to do it for you..

But there isn't much point having a suggestion & feedback board if you can't make suggestions and feedback, is there? Not every suggestion is accepted. But at least you can discuss ideas respectfully without the ad hominems and personal attacks. Or maybe you can't here. I don't know. done...

 

[CrystalLight]

When you are short on ideas just attack the proposer instead of the proposal and lord knows gotta have those red herrings and strawmen. Beats thinking.

Kalba

Only attack the one doing the attacking. You clearly don't like that everyone isn't all ZOMGWHATAGREATIDEALETSDOIT. So, instead of letting it die gracefully, you continue to bring up repetitive points with little to no impact.

Circular, if you will.

You spin me right round baby, right round..?

 

[Kalba]

no, I responded to Jeff's request for how I would establish a vetting system since he

Only attack the one doing the attacking. You clearly don't like that everyone isn't all ZOMGWHATAGREATIDEALETSDOIT. So, instead of letting it die gracefully, you continue to bring up repetitive points with little to no impact.

Circular, if you will.

You spin me right round baby, right round..?

asked the question. I tried to respond to his point, specifically. And I did not employ a lot of red herrings, tangents and strawmen.

 

[TMF Jeff]

I still don't see this as remotely do-able. But if you want to set up such a system, the TMF will support and endorse it.

 

[CrystalLight]

asked the question. I tried to respond to his point, specifically. And I did not employ a lot of red herrings, tangents and strawmen.

You remind me a lot of vsa7a. That user was persistent as all hell for a seperate area/name/ect for youtube videos.

Just thought I'd make an observation.

Good luck with your attempt at screening 81,000+ members at random time intervals and in random situations.

 

[chicago]

When making this list of vetted members, please no use of the words "red herring" or "straw men".

 

[DownUnder]

I'd like to ask a legitimate question.

So far Kalba's proposal has received unfavourable feedback from the Tzar, the Founder, the venerable Venray, plus folks like Robace, CrystalLight and AnnieHall, all of whom extremely knowledgeable and experienced members of the forum. If that is not a ringing disendorsement of the proposal, I don't know what is.

Myriads and Jeff had been extremely patient in allowing so much discussion on this proposal, despite minimal support from the community at large.

Can I ask how will this proposal be determined? Is it an executive decision by the admins and mods, or will it be put to a forum-wide poll? If it's the former, how much more submissions on the proposal will be allowed before a decision is reached? If it's the latter, may I move the motion that Kalba's proposal, pursuant to the opening post of the thread, be put to vote?

 

[Kalba]

Cop out. Suggestions by their nature belong to the owners

I still don't see this as remotely do-able. But if you want to set up such a system, the TMF will support and endorse it.

It's your system, your responsibility and oversight. If you up to it, manage the system you created. Delegating or trying delegate changes you know you won't try is a waste everyone's time. Next time, don't solicit imput unless you are serious about taking responsibility for it.

Kalba

 

[Kalba]

again, that's a strawman. You are responding to something noone is proposing.

You remind me a lot of vsa7a. That user was persistent as all hell for a seperate area/name/ect for youtube videos.

Just thought I'd make an observation.

Good luck with your attempt at screening 81,000+ members at random time intervals and in random situations.

Thanks for your input. I'm not persistent, just not a doormat. You guys make a suggestion forum. You should honor it and not make contributors feel like criminals.

 

[Kalba]

Maybe insteading making a cheap parity you could learn what they mean

When making this list of vetted members, please no use of the words "red herring" or "straw men".

and stop the needless ridicule to improve or at least discussing improving conditions on TMF for all of its member instead of this banter.

Kalba.

 

[LD_Tickler]

I think it's a neat idea.

Although, Kalba, even if participation is voluntary, the mere presence of a list of "authenticated" users will create a bit of a tier system. People will feel pressured to participate, voluntary or no.

There are plenty of reasons somebody might not want to participate even if they are who they claim to be.

So for that reason, I would advise against this system. I don't think it's fair to add any pressure at all for people to expose themselves.

 

[CrystalLight]

Thanks for your input. I'm not persistent, just not a doormat. You guys make a suggestion forum. You should honor it and not make contributors feel like criminals.

You've only made a suggestion. You need more of a pitch to back it. If you want something this bad, then set up shit. You know; pie-charts, flow charts, image charts, connect the dot's for the kids. All that shit.

 

[Kalba]

First of all, thank you for a thoughtful reply. Though we see the issue

I think it's a neat idea.

Although, Kalba, even if participation is voluntary, the mere presence of a list of "authenticated" users will create a bit of a tier system. People will feel pressured to participate, voluntary or no.

There are plenty of reasons somebody might not want to participate even if they are who they claim to be.

So for that reason, I would advise against this system. I don't think it's fair to add any pressure at all for people to expose themselves.

differently. I respect your position. In all candor, I don't expect anything will be done. It's just frustrating going into the chatroom with the same "guys" hitting on me (or someone else) in violation of the rules and nothing gets done. I think though someone was on to something regarding greener pastures. No system is ever going to get better when there is more heat than light in the dialogue.