Flag burning...

[Cosmo_ac]

here's a little experiment in sociology i'm doing. I' curiose what peoples responses will be. So, here is the question....

What would you do if you saw somebody burning your countries flag? Now, this takes place in your own country. It's not at a rally or protest, just a reguler day out in the middle of a street. This is there own flag, not one on a building flag pole.

Now, for a response, i'd like first, for the people to state what country there from, How they would react, and then explain why they would react the way they did.

I am eager to see peoples responses.

 

[Limeoutsider]

USA Id assume that they were properly disposing of an old flag and mind my own business

 

[Flatfoot]

USA Id assume that they were properly disposing of an old flag and mind my own business

Actually, that IS the proper way you're supposed to dispose of an American flag that has become worn or frayed. However, I assume your question was referring to flag burning out of malice, so from my position as a United States Marine, I would probably give a look of disgust in my passing, but would take no further action against them, because I understand that my job is to defend their rights to burn that flag, regardless of how ignorant or despicable I think they may be for doing it.

 

[maverick83]

United States. I wouldn't do a thing. I really wouldn't care. To me, it's just a huge piece of cloth. I would support someone burning the flag even if it wasn't an act of protest, if they were burning it simply because they felt like it. I think it's fine if people want to make associations regarding the flag (though personally, I could never see any sense in it), but taking action against flag burners is basically trying to force them to make those same associations.

 

[sushi854]

I am an American, and if I were to pass an individual burning a flag in protest, I would probably think that there are more productive ways to get your point across, although not in all circumstances. I would also consider myself lucky to live in a society in which the people are sovereign rather than the state, a person, a symbol, or the idea of the state, the personality, or the symbol. It is important to remember that the US Flag is a symbol of independence and individual liberties, and the fact that one can choose to burn this symbol is a testement to the greatness of these ideals.

 

[tower98]

Those are some great answers. My first thought was to stand and shake my head in disgust, but you are all right, there is nothing to be done about it. It is there right to do what ever they want, i would not even look at them, just keep moving and live and let live. But it would sadden me, to think of all those who gave there life for that flag. During the civil war someone made sure the flag stood tall, never to fall to the ground, and now people burn them...

 

[BigJim]

Great Britain: Like Flatfoot I'd assume this is done as a form of protest.
I'd wonder why they didn't put their protest in such a way as to make it coherant and intelligent. (Assuming they have the requisite number of braincells to do so.) Burning a flag isn't specific or intelligent. It may get attention, but I'd like to hear cogently assembled opinions and thought behind it.

How would I feel emotionally about it? I wouldn't give a shit. I'm not emotionally attached to things like flags in the way that I am to ideals and morals. That being said, I don't subscribe to the idea of nations holding particular moral lines and laugh at news articles and viewpoints that try to depict us as "the good guys" and them (whoever THEY are) as "the bad guys".

"We" are just as capable of despicable actions as "they" are, so I don't even turn my nose up at critiscism, so long as it isn't the garbage rhetoric about the "great Satan and his lesser demons" that so often comes out. Hell, if you're going to critiscise us, make it accurate and coherant, not ranting and gibberish!

 

[Dragon321]

Australia (of course...): i would have to concur with Jim's stance on this issue. while an evocative and emotionally-charged form of expression, flag-burning doesn't convey any intricacies of viewpoint, and can of course be easily misconstrued or misinterpreted. what exactly are they making said flag a symbol of? why merely my country's flag? is it a particularly australian viewpoint? some stance on an issue? it would merely cause dissent and confusion. my action would be to employ the socratic method on said flag burner, and any passers-by. 😎

 

[milagros317]

United States

Like Flatfoot, I would have a very low opinion of somebody who was burning an American flag, but I would fully recognize their constitutional right to do so. I would leave the vicinity, to minimize my emotional distress.

If the person burning the flag were a friend or acquaintance of mine, then I would never speak to him or her again.

If the person burning the flag were a colleague of mine at work, then I would speak to him or her only when absolutely necessary and only in an official manner.

If the person burning the flag were a relative of mine, then I would see him or her only when absolutely necessary at family events.

In summary, the flag burner's rights to free expression in no way limit my rights to free association.

 

[BigJim]

A question Mils; feel free not to respond if the answer is too personal to you. 🙂


Even by American standards, you are exceptionally bonded to Old Glory, in emotional terms. My personal opinion is that such an attachment makes someone very easy to manipulate; that isn't important however. My question is, why are you so emotionally attached to the flag? I'm not passing any moral or ethical judgement here my friend, I just detect even more fervour from you than I do from most Americans and it made me curious.

 

[milagros317]

An answer to Big Jim:

My father and two of my uncles served in the Pacific theater of combat during World War II. One uncle was in the U.S. Marines, and the other and my father were in the U.S. Army.

All three of them told me stories of American military men mutilated by the soldiers or sailors of Imperial Japan, who either stuffed a mutilated American flag where their genitals had been, or wrapped a mutitlated flag over where they had once had a face. These were first hand stories of what they saw with their own eyes, not rumors of atrocities. I should add that the mutilated soldiers or marines that they saw were dead, but it was not clear if they were killed before or after.

That is what desecrating an American flag makes me think of.

PS
My uncle who was in the marines added that it was a myth that few Japanese surrendered. After what he and his fellow marines had seen, they killed every one who tried to surrender.

 

[Flatfoot]

I know this thread wasn't just aimed at Americans, and I'm not trying to hijack it, or anything, but I just wanted to throw in this poem, called Old Glory, by Howard Schnauber, because for me, this expresses why the flag is more than just a piece of colored cloth, and what it means. I'm not what you would call the most die-hard patriot, but I've narrated some retirement ceremonies for Marines, in which a flag is presented to the retiree, among other things. When the flag is being presented, I've read this particular poem aloud with "Proud to be an American" playing in the background. It sends chills down my spine. Well, before I get on a sentimental rant let me get off my soapbox and get on with the post, here is the poem. I apologize if the spacing is incorrect. Copying and pasting doesn't always yield the desired results:

I am the flag of the United States of America.
My name is Old Glory.

I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America’s halls of justice.
I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.
Look up and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.

When I am flown with my fellow banners,
My head is a little higher,
My colors a little truer.
I bow to no one!

I am recognized all over the world.
I am worshipped - I am saluted.
I am loved - I am revered.
I am respected - and I am feared.

I have fought in every battle
of every war for more then 200 years.

I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Shiloh and Appamatox.
I was there at San Juan Hill, the trenches of France,
in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome and the beaches of Normandy.

Guam, Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon, Vietnam know me.
I was there.
I led my troops, I was dirty, battleworn and tired,
But my soldiers cheered me and I was proud.

I have been burned, torn and trampled on the
streets of countries I have helped set free.
It does not hurt for I am invincible.
I have been soiled upon, burned, torn and
trampled in the streets of my country.

And when it's done by those
Whom I've served in battle - it hurts.
But I shall overcome - for I am strong.

I have slipped the bonds of Earth and stood watch over the uncharted
frontiers of space from my vantage point on the moon.
I have borne silent witness to all of America's finest hours.

But my finest hours are yet to come.
When I am torn into strips and used as bandages
for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent
at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,
I am proud.

My name is Old Glory, long may I wave.
Dear God, long may I wave.

 

[asutickler]

The United States of America.


To take your question literally: It is neither safe nor lawful to set a flag (or any other object, save a cigarette or some such) alight in the middle of a public street. Therefore, if I encountered someone doing EXACTLY what you said, I would find the nearest fire extinguisher or hose and perform my civic duty.


If, however, someone were burning a flag in accordance with local laws... I would simply ignore them. While I find the act itself abhorrent, I know that those who engage in it are generally desperate for attention of some sort, and therefore I would not give them the satisfaction of having provoked a reaction.

 

[sole seeker]

Like Flatfoot, I would have a very low opinion of somebody who was burning an American flag, but I would fully recognize their constitutional right to do so. I would leave the vicinity, to minimize my emotional distress.

If the person burning the flag were a friend or acquaintance of mine, then I would never speak to him or her again.

If the person burning the flag were a colleague of mine at work, then I would speak to him or her only when absolutely necessary and only in an official manner.

If the person burning the flag were a relative of mine, then I would see him or her only when absolutely necessary at family events.

In summary, the flag burner's rights to free expression in no way limit my rights to free association.

An excellent response Milagros. I feel exactly the same, except that I reserve the right to become physical with blood-kin. Being family has privelages as well as responsibility. If I found a male cousin or my brother burning a flag for a disrespectful reason I might break his nose. Then again - I don't believe anyone in my family would ever do such a thing.

Thanks for posting "Old Glory", flatfoot.

 

[BigJim]

Thankyou for that reply Mils. I appreciate your candor and frankness. 🙂


Good poem Flatfoot.



In closing: I find flag-burning to be a petty and vacuous statement. I can think of many things to get a point across that are both more mature and more effective. If a flag-burner can also put forward a cogent point of view, then I'm happy to listen and consider. Given the tone of some of my marathon posts, there's every chance I'll agree with them. I find the act itself to be idiotic in the extreme however.

 

[TravlZeus2002]

United States. I wouldn't do a thing. I really wouldn't care. To me, it's just a huge piece of cloth. I would support someone burning the flag even if it wasn't an act of protest, if they were burning it simply because they felt like it. I think it's fine if people want to make associations regarding the flag (though personally, I could never see any sense in it), but taking action against flag burners is basically trying to force them to make those same associations.

USA. I feel pretty much the same way. The concept that people have about a country's flag is, in my opinion, just another way to discriminate against other types of people.

 

[maverick83]

If I found a male cousin or my brother burning a flag for a disrespectful reason I might break his nose.

I kinda feel the need to say this. Not trying to create a conflict or anything. No offense, but if anyone, relative or not, decided they had the right to take physical action against me if I decided to burn a flag...I'd break more than their nose.

 

[TravlZeus2002]

I kinda feel the need to say this. Not trying to create a conflict or anything. No offense, but if anyone, relative or not, decided they had the right to take physical action against me if I decided to burn a flag...I'd break more than their nose.

I'm with you.

 

[ShadowFyre]

My 2 cents

Flatfoot, I couldn't agree more. While I personally find flag burning offensive, as a Marine, I would simply walk away, as it is my job to fight to allow the person to burn the flag properly. As the old saying goes, the true test of free expression is that which we do not agree with.