For those who support piracy of clips...please read

[turtleboy]

As many people are aware, clip piracy has become a major issue for some clip producers including myself. I used to have a fairly relaxed attitude and open mind about it until it got so out of control. Many of the problems over the last year have stemmed from one individual hosting a site on which he uploads and shares many, and in some cases all of the latest clips from a range of producers. Not only is this person harming stores by giving away all of their content, but that he is using stolen credit cards to buy the clips and access the websites. The result is that producers then lose this money in the form of chargebacks later on. Clips4sale also get charged a fee each time this happens and in each case someone, somewhere is shocked to find they have been the victim of credit card fraud.

The particularly sad thing about this is that so many people choose to support this person, posting comments on his site openly thanking him for his 'generosity' each time he gives away another batch of latest releases. This is not only offensive to the producers who are losing money, but also ridiculous considering the 1000s of $ worth of clips that he is uploading. Clearly, no individual could afford to buy this many clips on a monthly basis and they are being obtained by illegal means. Whilst I hope that these people are in a minority, I don't doubt that many are also TMF users and it is for this reason I am posting about it. Downloading pirated clips is one thing but encouraging this person to continue committing fraud on such a massive scale is shameful.

Having received multiple chargebacks over recent weeks $150 of them today I decided to post some of them just to illustrate the problem. The list below is from a search I ran on my store tonight. It shows the amounts I have had deducted since the end of May (approx 6 weeks) The pattern is much the same each month, and it now happens on my website too. I dread getting an email from clips4sale to tell me that another $70 or $100 has been deucted due to chargebacks...it actually discourages me from carrying on. When you consider that these are all from stolen credit cards and that this is happening to multiple producers every month, it is pretty appalling.

So, to those who think it is great and keep telling this guy he's a hero, please consider this. Some producers have stopped selling clips and others I have spoken to are thinking of doing the same. For the first time in three years I find myself thinking about moving off C4S for good and looking to alternatives just because I am so sick of the fraud...it is really a shame.

05/26/12 Chargeback 16704692 $ -7.19 16704692 5985057 0
05/26/12 Chargeback 16704692 $ -7.19 16704692 5993949 0
05/26/12 Chargeback 16704692 $ -6.59 16704692 6005797 0
05/26/12 Chargeback 16704692 $ -8.99 16704692 6019047 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16782898 $ -5.39 16782898 5493913 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16782898 $ -9.59 16782898 5667413 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16782898 $ -8.99 16782898 6030291 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16782898 $ -10.19 16782898 6041607 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16782898 $ -6.59 16782898 6053667 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16871420 $ -9.59 16871420 5576829 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16871420 $ -5.99 16871420 5592785 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16871420 $ -6.59 16871420 5604507 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16871420 $ -5.39 16871420 6070927 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16871420 $ -5.39 16871420 6082471 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16871420 $ -7.79 16871420 6093369 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16926198 $ -5.99 16926198 5413687 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16926198 $ -8.39 16926198 5435949 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16926198 $ -7.19 16926198 5505609 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16926198 $ -8.99 16926198 5524085 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16926198 $ -5.39 16926198 5765495 0
06/12/12 Chargeback 16926198 $ -5.39 16926198 6114819 0
06/13/12 Chargeback 16648900 $ -8.39 16648900 5619853 0
06/13/12 Chargeback 16648900 $ -7.19 16648900 5636277 0
06/13/12 Chargeback 16648900 $ -9.59 16648900 5653267 0
06/13/12 Chargeback 16648900 $ -7.19 16648900 5985057 0
06/13/12 Chargeback 16648900 $ -7.19 16648900 5993949 0
06/21/12 Chargeback 17024100 $ -8.99 17024100 5367325 0
06/21/12 Chargeback 17024100 $ -8.99 17024100 5376217 0
06/21/12 Chargeback 17024100 $ -5.39 17024100 5765495 0
06/21/12 Chargeback 17024100 $ -8.99 17024100 6147813 0
06/21/12 Chargeback 17024100 $ -7.19 17024100 6168867 0
07/09/12 Chargeback 16967052 $ -9.59 16967052 5393669 0
07/09/12 Chargeback 16967052 $ -7.79 16967052 5471103 0
07/09/12 Chargeback 16967052 $ -4.79 16967052 5485483 0
07/09/12 Chargeback 16967052 $ -8.39 16967052 6129389 0
07/09/12 Chargeback 16967052 $ -7.79 16967052 6140739 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17204375 $ -10.19 17204375 6181679 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17204375 $ -8.39 17204375 6206193 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17204375 $ -5.99 17204375 6221237 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17204375 $ -8.39 17204375 6245265 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17204375 $ -5.99 17204375 6255001 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17333277 $ -9.59 17333277 5349745 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17333277 $ -9.59 17333277 6268597 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17333277 $ -6.59 17333277 6289901 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17333277 $ -7.19 17333277 6299713 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17333277 $ -5.39 17333277 6309529 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17088660 $ -4.79 17088660 4686096 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17088660 $ -5.99 17088660 4753680 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17088660 $ -10.19 17088660 5250441 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17088660 $ -8.39 17088660 5685355 0
07/11/12 Chargeback 17088660 $ -7.79 17088660 6153299 0

 

[MrTicklefeet]

Have you contacted the police or the FBI?

 

[sclubtickle]

This must be happening to multiple producers of all types of material on clips4sale. They obviously know each and every time they get a chargeback but choose not to do anything about it. They are probably reluctant to introduce additional security measures due the nature of what they sell and the need for privacy but that is exactly what they should be doing. They are keen enough to take a significant cut in the first place presumable to cover their hosting and payment management overheads but are equally quick to grab back your cut if their payment system accepts a fraudulent order.

Sadly I think it is time for people to move away from clips4sale. I should imagine that what ever alternatives people use it will hit sales for producers so we have a lose-lose situation really 🙁

 

[Comfort Eagle]

I'm not entirely opposed to paying with Paypal like a lot of other producers have switched to (a verified PayPal needs to be linked to a bank account, reducing the chances of fraud by a lot), but I'm not a big fan of the "It costs twice as much this way" method that people have adopted with it.

 

[robmic]

It's really sad that this is happening. It seems that there is always someone out there willing to take advantage of others. What ever happened to having morals and being proud of it!?!? Boggles the mind....

 

[mabus]

Finally Finally finally finally finally finally Finally Finally Finally FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY

FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!

FINALLY!!!

A producer gives some DETAILS in all of THIS!

And I knew it'd be Turtleboy! Great job!

All this time, the producers have been coy, VAGUE, not giving any substance or details, just "We're losing business, it's rotten,
we're losing money, etc."

And the average TMF member yawns, or feels kinda bad, but is thinking, "Big deal, some guy bought ONE clip, he pirated it, but he did BUY that one clip,
(we assume on HIS OWN credit card.) and it's no big loss, the producers are just being greedy."

I always believe giving specifics is the best, and sometimes only way, to argue your case.

One questions is, ...okay solutions, asked to producers, lawyers, and COPS: How would a tickle fetish producer go about seeking help in stopping this, and being
totally cool about it?

Turtleboy accidentally illustrated the problem - these people are committing multiple crimes against multiple people, and they get away with it because they KNOW no one's going
to say shit! "Hi, I make tickle porn videos, and some guy is stealing my clips...." and they hope the cop doesn't investigate THEM, or arrest THEM for producing pornography!"

It's like the old joke about sending in a check made for cash to someone you don't like/who screwed you over, and putting at the bottom "Payment for Rape Porn video" or "Hard core Pedophile Porn." ....obviously most people wouldn't cash the check.

If a cop or lawyer jumps in here, he or she can tell you exactly how to combat this. I think if you can get this done, you all can go back to clips4sale, because it may
be a limited number of people doing this.

If you can get rid of/past the stigma to get this done (and get the user removed from the video sites, it'd clear much of it up.)

I know youtube has a trigger finger with getting stuff taken off.....what about the others?

 

[mabus]

I'm not entirely opposed to paying with Paypal like a lot of other producers have switched to (a verified PayPal needs to be linked to a bank account, reducing the chances of fraud by a lot), but I'm not a big fan of the "It costs twice as much this way" method that people have adopted with it.

I 100% agree with this also. People may be reluctant to buy clips if they're cash strapped...tacking on additional money will sure keep them away...even if it's a clip they REALLY want.

The more hassle it takes to order, they less customers you'll get, sadly.

 

[ticklishdanny]

That's awful, can't they catch this guy? I mean he is hosting a website to give away pirated material.

 

[BellybTickler]

I'd like to throw in support, but I can't support something that won't solve the issue. There will always be pirating. Shit, the very concept of it has lasted since the day man took to the high seas, it is unstoppable and you can only hope to stem the tide. Do as TA has done and create your own website, that will solve your credit issues somewhat, but your product will always be pirated as long as there is an internet.

 

[sclubtickle]

I'm not entirely opposed to paying with Paypal like a lot of other producers have switched to (a verified PayPal needs to be linked to a bank account, reducing the chances of fraud by a lot), but I'm not a big fan of the "It costs twice as much this way" method that people have adopted with it.

At the end of the day if using an alternative to clips4sale and doubling the price of clips results in a better return on their investment then, from a producers point of view, the new business model works. If not then they will either give up or find an alternative business model pretty quickly.

Sadly it will cost producers money to minimise this sort of fraud and that will have to passed onto the customer in some way.

I have offered to pay turtleboy directly in cash if he's happy to let me stand and watch his shoots but I don't think it's a scalable solution or suitable for non-UK customers!

 

[MrTicklefeet]

Finally Finally finally finally finally finally Finally Finally Finally FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY

FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!

FINALLY!!!

Was that nessesary to say that 17 times?

And the quote "Turtleboy accidentally illustrated the problem - these people are committing multiple crimes against multiple people, and they get away with it because they KNOW no one's going
to say shit! "Hi, I make tickle porn videos, and some guy is stealing my clips...." and they hope the cop doesn't investigate THEM, or arrest THEM for producing pornography!"

It's like the old joke about sending in a check made for cash to someone you don't like/who screwed you over, and putting at the bottom "Payment for Rape Porn video" or "Hard core Pedophile Porn." ....obviously most people wouldn't cash the check."

Funny funny funny. We're talking tickling clips here. I've seen a number of his samples, there's no rape going on. Besides, he has the right to protect his investment. It's perfectly legal for him to report the theft. So there.

 

[turtleboy]

Thanks for your comments on this everyone. Since typing my post above, I received another chargeback last night bringing the total to just under -$200. It gets to the point where I would have to sell X amount just to get back to $0.00.

As for calling the cops etc, I am based in the UK and have little to go on in terms of evidence, which would make it hard to get anyone to act. This individual (and I do believe it is the same individual) most likely hides behind proxy IPs, and then uses a different credit card each time to rip myself and other producers off. 🙁

 

[turtleboy]

Do as TA has done and create your own website, that will solve your credit issues somewhat, but your product will always be pirated as long as there is an internet.

I do have a members site as well, and unfortunately the chargebacks have started on there now too - again, usually 2 or 3 at a time. I believe that this is because my website content has now started to appear on his site, and he has to use multiple credit cards to keep accessing it since they probably keep getting blocked.

Even so, I am considering shutting up my C4S and switching to a website-only format. It is sad that I should have to consider this due to the actions of one person but at least on there we have more control over who accesses the site.

 

[turtleboy]

It's really sad that this is happening. It seems that there is always someone out there willing to take advantage of others. What ever happened to having morals and being proud of it!?!? Boggles the mind....

Sadly, this person clearly has a weird concept of morality. It is like stealing from local corner shops and then giving the money away to the people on your street simply to get praise. He knows that he is committing crimes, yet ironically it is the ass-kissing gratitude he receives from these people that motivates him to keep going!

 

[turtleboy]

I'm not entirely opposed to paying with Paypal like a lot of other producers have switched to (a verified PayPal needs to be linked to a bank account, reducing the chances of fraud by a lot), but I'm not a big fan of the "It costs twice as much this way" method that people have adopted with it.

At the end of the day if using an alternative to clips4sale and doubling the price of clips results in a better return on their investment then, from a producers point of view, the new business model works. If not then they will either give up or find an alternative business model pretty quickly.

Sadly it will cost producers money to minimise this sort of fraud and that will have to passed onto the customer in some way.

I have offered to pay turtleboy directly in cash if he's happy to let me stand and watch his shoots but I don't think it's a scalable solution or suitable for non-UK customers!

I can understand this too, but I guess with the massive losses people are taking they have to charge more just to stay in business. Studio rental, model fees etc remain the same whether or not your income is slashed in half and so its inevitable that people will have to charge a higher price if they are selling less clips via an alternative method.

If I moved everything to my membership site, I would have to increase the monthly membership fee significantly just to stay in business as the return I get on there is lower than what I get from clips4sale. Ideally, no one should have to feel the need to close stores, stop releasing clips or raise prices but these are the consequences of what's going on here.

 

[turtleboy]

This must be happening to multiple producers of all types of material on clips4sale. They obviously know each and every time they get a chargeback but choose not to do anything about it. They are probably reluctant to introduce additional security measures due the nature of what they sell and the need for privacy but that is exactly what they should be doing. They are keen enough to take a significant cut in the first place presumable to cover their hosting and payment management overheads but are equally quick to grab back your cut if their payment system accepts a fraudulent order.

Sadly I think it is time for people to move away from clips4sale. I should imagine that what ever alternatives people use it will hit sales for producers so we have a lose-lose situation really 🙁

If a cop or lawyer jumps in here, he or she can tell you exactly how to combat this. I think if you can get this done, you all can go back to clips4sale, because it may
be a limited number of people doing this.

Clips4sale have shown little or no interest in this situation. Whilst it's true that many stores receive chargebacks each month across the board, its also true that this is a specific problem with tickling clips and one that arose when the first incarnation of this guy's blog appeared. To put it into context, until the start of last year I received no chargebacks at all and now I have several every month. I have another non-tickling related store and have never had a chargeback on it.

The usual chargebacks are one-offs where a kid uses their parent's credit card, to buy a clip for example. These on the other hand, are systematic orders, each consisting of several clips..I have even been able to link the exact clip orders to the order in which my clips go on my site! When discussing it with clips4sale however, they just see it as a routine situation and so don't take any action.

 

[sclubtickle]

That sucks like a Dyson 🙁

 

[peter]

Yeah i hate this!
For example i wanted 2 specific clips of the company strykersentertainment but he only sells clips through paypal. He wouldn't sell it to my cause i live in the Netherlands and our piracy policy isn't that strict or something like that.
I can only buy stuff with creditcard 🙁
IF everyone are going to go an alternate way I cant buy clips anymore

 

[tku]

Yep, those chargebacks are ridiculous turtleboy 🙁 I can't help but feel that clips4sale is letting you guys down somewhat in all of this.. it's a fool's hope to expect software piracy to disappear, but it's perfectly reasonable to expect your e-commerce provider to have ample security measures in place and fulfil a duty of care towards the producers it relies upon to generate revenue.

Some e-commerce platforms, in particular ones which do not require user registration, have an extreme susceptiblity to this type of chargeback abuse; which to exacerbate matters, mainly stems from eastern europe, russia and asia where there is very little to no recourse for this kind of behavior. One possible, albeit imperfect, solution is to have a two-step system where users register and then verify their card before they can make purchases. The verification process sends a token charge along with a with a code visible on the newly registered users bank statement; which that user then passes back to the website to unlock the ability to make purchases. I know many of the major webcam sites do this, Paypal does this and it certainly stops a credit card fraudster that doesn't also have access to their victims bank statements, and therefore the unlock code. You can also bind credit card info to a users mobile phone number, requiring sms/automated call verification to unlock purchasing ability in a similar way. By encrypting any stored phone numbers in much the same way credit card and passwords should be hashed, so even admins don't have access to this sensitive information (poorly secured/encrypted databases are often how credit card lists get into a scoundrels hands in the first place) you are doing your bit to instil confidence and protect your customers in this way too.

In short, to alleviate credit card fraud/abuse as much as can be hoped for, you have to bind and verify a user's purchasing ability to some kind of hard to duplicate personal information. It doesn't stop geniune card holders issuing chargebacks, but at least you can blacklist their digits if they are abusing the process and know the issue is relatively under control.

I know most producers aren't code wizards, nor enthralled by the concept of moving away from clips4sale - which has obviously been a great enabler for you guys in recent years - but unfortunately I think it's likely the only realistic and practical way of tackling chargeback abuse, as I doubt they are going to change the way they do things any time soon. I am glad you brought this topic up in the non-ranty/non-vitriolic manner in which you have; as I think a lot of current and prospective e-business operators will benefit from some of the discussion that has and will no doubt arise.

I hope you find a solution that works for you and that your tickle endeavours become a less stressful affair post-haste 🙂

 

[The Last Laugh]

Clips4sale have shown little or no interest in this situation.

Which I find totally unacceptable. C4S is the main source of clips for pirates. The C4S people should feel some level of responsibility for the problem. There's very little the producers can do about it. No matter what they try to do, that damn pirate site just won't stay dead. While getting rid of it can't be an easy process, I must assume that a huge site like C4S has a lot more legal resources than all of the theft victims among the tickling producers put together. They might be able to do something. But as I understand it, C4S isn't doing much about it (though I'd be very happy to be wrong about this).

Which actually doesn't make sense to me. I mean, don't these thefts result in loss of profits for C4S as well? Wouldn't it be advantageous for them to try to throw some legal action at the guy who's causing so much damage to a number of the producers who use their site, especially considering a few of them are among the Top 50 vendors on C4S?

Then again, I suppose it's possible that the C4S legal team has its arms full with so many cases of piracy that they couldn't deal with the tickling pirate site even if they wanted to. If this is the case I take back my comments.

 

[Phineas]

If I moved everything to my membership site, I would have to increase the monthly membership fee significantly just to stay in business as the return I get on there is lower than what I get from clips4sale.

You would also trade the chargeback problem for the "users sharing their passwords" problem, which would just be swapping one set of ills for another.

I think it's time producers took a global stand against this and just stopped producing material until something is done.

 

[mabus]

Was that nessesary to say that 17 times?

Should I have said it 18 times? I thought 16 was too many, and I knew 17 was less than 16.

Funny funny funny. We're talking tickling clips here. I've seen a number of his samples, there's no rape going on. Besides, he has the right to protect his investment. It's perfectly legal for him to report the theft. So there.

His clips DON'T feature rape porn? I'll be damned! Oh, and I saw where I said it was illegal for him to report it. After the 3rd paragraph.

Which actually doesn't make sense to me. I mean, don't these thefts result in loss of profits for C4S as well? Wouldn't it be advantageous for them to try to throw some legal action at the guy who's causing so much damage to a number of the producers who use their site, especially considering a few of them are among the Top 50 vendors on C4S?

Then again, I suppose it's possible that the C4S legal team has its arms full with so many cases of piracy that they couldn't deal with the tickling pirate site even if they wanted to. If this is the case I take back my comments.

That's my big question Francois - clips4sale is the one losing a big chunk of money in all this. Unless they're swimming in cash, I figure it'd be cost effective to spend a little bit of money to save a bigger amount, and protect future clip sales. Unless they have so many producers they simply don't care.

Questions: Is this problem JUST in the tickling world, or are there other fetishes being hit? I know Turtleboy said his other stores weren't being hit, but I wonder why just tickling?

Standing back and looking at the big pictures, are total sales substantially dropping after the pirating? One argument against worrying about pirating, is that the regular customers will remain regular customers, and those who pirate and get clips would never have paid for them in the first place, so the loss is insignificant.
Are overall sales severely dropping to the point where you HAVE to shut down, because you can't afford models, studios, etc.?
(I purposely asked this for the few WAY back when who commented in a thread that the producers, and models! should just shoot videos for free...you know...because! I'm sure they went in to work, and after two weeks, happily told their boss "Hey man, you don't need to PAY me for my work, the customers rally wanted the fruits of my labor!")

On the website charge back issue, there was a site run by a girl named Christina called www.Christinamodel.com that had charge back issues. Maybe mail her and ask her how she solved it, if websites are a way to go.

 

[tku]

Which I find totally unacceptable. C4S is the main source of clips for pirates. The C4S people should feel some level of responsibility for the problem. There's very little the producers can do about it. No matter what they try to do, that damn pirate site just won't stay dead. While getting rid of it can't be an easy process, I must assume that a huge site like C4S has a lot more legal resources than all of the theft victims among the tickling producers put together. They might be able to do something. But as I understand it, C4S isn't doing much about it (though I'd be very happy to be wrong about this).

Which actually doesn't make sense to me. I mean, don't these thefts result in loss of profits for C4S as well? Wouldn't it be advantageous for them to try to throw some legal action at the guy who's causing so much damage to a number of the producers who use their site, especially considering a few of them are among the Top 50 vendors on C4S?

Then again, I suppose it's possible that the C4S legal team has its arms full with so many cases of piracy that they couldn't deal with the tickling pirate site even if they wanted to. If this is the case I take back my comments.

U.S. law really doesn't apply to the countries where most software piracy and credit card fraud comes from, it's a symptom of the global nature of the internet. I appreciate how frustrating that is, but it is reality. Across the software and music industry, I can't think of a time when legal rumbling has actually helped alleviate piracy and in fact it usually makes the "internet crusader" types even more determined. From my perspective a certain amount of piracy is inevitable due to human nature and the way digital files are inherently copyable, but these reams of chargebacks are something else ...and unlike the futility of playing internet wack-a-mole with groups of people who are likely vastly more computer savvy than the legal establishment (or let's face it, the average media producer 😀) there are real feasible solutions to protect against credit card fraud and abuses. It's a pain in the arse sure, but the passive days of making money on the internet are over unfortunately 😛

You would also trade the chargeback problem for the "users sharing their passwords" problem, which would just be swapping one set of ills for another.

I think it's time producers took a global stand against this and just stopped producing material until something is done.

There are built-in measures on pretty much all member sites these days, such that sharing user passwords (or rather logging in from too many ip's in a short timeframe) will get you auto-banned. As much as piracy can be a thorn in the side of any content creator, the problem producers are describing here is more a problem of e-commerce security ie. more clips being flooded to pirate sites is a symptom rather than the root of the problem. Stopping production on these grounds would pretty much be a nose cutting exercise. The producers here need a fraud resistant base to sell their clips from - that's the bottom line 😛

 

[mabus]

You would also trade the chargeback problem for the "users sharing their passwords" problem, which would just be swapping one set of ills for another.

I think it's time producers took a global stand against this and just stopped producing material until something is done.

Boy would that hit many loyal customers hard!

I don't know if it'd have any impact either, though I totally understand where you're coming from.

I don't think the pirates "moral centers" will be hit very hard, they'll just keep swapping the same old clips, or move on to another fetish area....

It's like if Walmart shut down because of excessive shop lifting, the crooks would simply go to K-Mart!

Yet, if they ARE losing so much money they can't afford to operate any longer, your solution may become reality anyway. 🙁

 

[sclubtickle]

Yet, if they ARE losing so much money they can't afford to operate any longer, your solution may become reality anyway. 🙁

And surely this is as much of an issue linked to the global economic downturn as piracy. Even if you could eradicate the despicable systematic fraudulent piracy going on here, would this lead to a significant increase in sales or are there simply not enough people willing and able to buy clips any more? I certainly hope not but I'm not convinced.