Hey, so...there's still totally a war going on in Libya, right?

[kis123]

From the AP:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/un-vote-clears-way-libya-air-strikes-20110317-155642-596.html

Personally, I feel like a useless **** for not finding my way down there and taking up a weapon myself. This is more important than a goddamn earthquake, people! Start pressuring someone for airstrikes!

According to CNBC news (breaking news so no link yet)

Libya's FM has agreed to halt all military action in response to UN intervention.

Now for the above quoted post:

I'm really hoping you aren't serious about this comment. Do you have any idea what they're going through in Japan right now? Chernobyl anyone? That happened in the 1980s and they're still reeling from the effects of radiation poisoning.

You have over 3,000 dead, thousands more wounded, even more homeless wondering what to do with their lives next. Now you have a nuclear reactor that's already leaked and they're doing all they can to keep it from exploding.

We've been dealing with the Middle East forever with no end in sight. Don't know how that's going to end, but IMO, there's no level of importance between a war (that you can control to a certain degree) and an earthquake, tsunami, and an out of control nuclear reactor. There's not a thing anyone can do to control that.

 

[kis123]

Here's the link.......this just in:

http://www.cnbc.com/

See, a seemingly out of control situation just got controlled.

Now if only we could control mother nature parts of Japan wouldn't be in ruins. Or Haiti.......or Katrina........or........

 

[c7_assassin]

We've been dealing with the Middle East forever with no end in sight. Don't know how that's going to end, but IMO, there's no level of importance between a war (that you can control to a certain degree) and an earthquake, tsunami, and an out of control nuclear reactor. There's not a thing anyone can do to control that.

This is what I love so much about talking to you, kis. You keep making my points for me. I guess I'm saying we should pay more attention to the developing situation we are able to do something about because how we act now will have consequences.

If you actually think a disaster like Hurricane Katrina was anywhere near as destructive or awful or significant as a civil war, you're kidding yourself so hard your funnybone is in danger of shattering.

 

[kis123]

This is what I love so much about talking to you, kis. You keep making my points for me. I guess I'm saying we should pay more attention to the developing situation we are able to do something about because how we act now will have consequences.

If you actually think a disaster like Hurricane Katrina was anywhere near as destructive or awful or significant as a civil war, you're kidding yourself so hard your funnybone is in danger of shattering.

No your point was to place more importance on a never ending middle east war that's spreading every day to natural disasters that after decades later still have effects on the survivors. Again, I say......Chernobyl anyone? They've been suffering with the after effects longer than you've been alive.

Uh, Katrina has still not been resolved for many parts of LA...I know that's not in Canada, but you'd probably wouldn't be so flip if it was. I know Louisiana isn't finding it very funny at all.

So you think what's happening in Japan is insignificant? Go ask the droves of folks trying to get the hell outta' there before the reactor blows.

Looks like Gadaffi's ignoring the no fly and his own cabinet's begging him to stop fighting. He didn't listen 30 years ago and he ain't listening now. Unless and until someone drops a bomb directly on his ass he ain't giving up nothing!

Tell you what? How about if you start in Afghanistan and work your way to Libya? Only war will break out in another part of the middle east. They've been at it over 6,000 years and there is no end in sight with countries joining the fold every day. I'd rather take my chances cooling off the reactor in Japan than to get these grown ass men to stop fighting. All the other guns and bombs haven't stopped them, but you give it a whirl okay?

 

[Jagermeistered]

Picking sides in another countries Civil War will only create oppression for the losers. What will happen with the next generation? It will only start the process over again, and with an increase in the death of innocent lives. It's the only way the West will win the Middle Easts natural resources...

 

[kis123]

Picking sides in another countries Civil War will only create oppression for the losers. What will happen with the next generation? It will only start the process over again, and with an increase in the death of innocent lives. It's the only way the West will win the Middle Easts natural resources...

Ooooh.....did you say that?

Damnit, you and those pesky economics!

I didn't even bother to mention it; I must admit getting labeled sometimes gets old.

But simply put, war protects the special interests of the elite wrapped in a faux patriotism to get the public behind it. Those who don't get on board aren't considered patriotic to their country. It could just mean that war for the sake of having war or to make corporations even fatter than they already are doesn't appeal to some. You know, like oil interests in Iraq or poppy seed interests in Afghanistan. I just haven't figured out what's the special interest in Libya after everyone stood silent with protests in Egypt and Bahrain.

I'm just sayin'........

 

[Jagermeistered]

Ooooh.....did you say that?

Damnit, you and those pesky economics!

I didn't even bother to mention it; I must admit getting labeled sometimes gets old.

But simply put, war protects the special interests of the elite wrapped in a faux patriotism to get the public behind it. Those who don't get on board aren't considered patriotic to their country. It could just mean that war for the sake of having war or to make corporations even fatter than they already are doesn't appeal to some. You know, like oil interests in Iraq or poppy seed interests in Afghanistan. I just haven't figured out what's the special interest in Libya after everyone stood silent with protests in Egypt and Bahrain.

I'm just sayin'........

"Freedom" of course!!! It opens up interstate commerce maybe for new NAFTA style agreements between governments; actually, democratic governments(that's what they want, right?) by the people and for the people of course. 😉

 

[Comfort Eagle]

I don't think Libya is that important. At all, actually.

And that no matter what America/the West does or does not do, years from now people will be raging about Western involvement.

But mostly because fuck Libya.

 

[Jagermeistered]

I don't think Libya is that important. At all, actually.

And that no matter what America/the West does or does not do, years from now people will be raging about Western involvement.

But mostly because fuck Libya.

Great thread closer... Fuck Libya.

And, hopefully the rest of the world will leave them the fuck alone. Leave them be; we can live off without their oil for awhile.

Bravo 2 out.

 

[Angel77]

From the AP:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/un-vote-clears-way-libya-air-strikes-20110317-155642-596.html

Personally, I feel like a useless **** for not finding my way down there and taking up a weapon myself. This is more important than a goddamn earthquake, people! Start pressuring someone for airstrikes!

Well, it looks like France is starting in on that lol.

 

[c7_assassin]

Picking sides in another countries Civil War will only create oppression for the losers. What will happen with the next generation? It will only start the process over again, and with an increase in the death of innocent lives. It's the only way the West will win the Middle Easts natural resources...

But simply put, war protects the special interests of the elite wrapped in a faux patriotism to get the public behind it. Those who don't get on board aren't considered patriotic to their country. It could just mean that war for the sake of having war or to make corporations even fatter than they already are doesn't appeal to some. You know, like oil interests in Iraq or poppy seed interests in Afghanistan. I just haven't figured out what's the special interest in Libya after everyone stood silent with protests in Egypt and Bahrain.

I don't think Libya is that important. At all, actually.

And that no matter what America/the West does or does not do, years from now people will be raging about Western involvement.

But mostly because fuck Libya.

Guys, you're being ignorant and awful right now. Stop it.

In the last ten years, we've fought two wars in order to bring down totalitarian dictatorships in this part of the world. Think about whether those wars were objectively "important" or not, in your estimation.

What's happening in the Middle East right now is regime change on a massive international scale, and what makes Libya so important is that this is one place where the dictator in question has decided he has nothing to lose and has declared war on his own people. So every single Arab who's thinking about change, and every entrenched leader with an unhappy citizenry, is paying very close attention to how this all turns out.

In other words, what is going on over there right now is going to change the world one way or another; the only thing left up to the West is to make sure the change is for the better. We can help bring democracy to the Middle East if we act decisively. We can actually be good guys on the world stage again, without invading, without setting up secret prisons or killing civilians or any of the old Bush bullshit. Or we can fail, and confirm every ugly myth about what America really thinks of brown people, and a huge opportunity will have been squandered (to say nothing of millions of people we'll be leaving in bondage).

Or if you want an upside you can understand, think about the fact that there are radical Islamists in these countries too. This is like being able to do something in Afghanistan before the Taliban took over. Would that have been "important?"

I just don't know how you can dismiss this moment with "Fuck Libya" or bullshit about "special interests" and "the elite." If you want to live in the world, you should pay more attention to the things that matter.

 

[Comfort Eagle]

Let's say the rebels win. Let's say that once they gain power they do not do that whole "democracy" thing and instead just torture and murder the fuck out of the opposition. Let's say they keep doing this for 20 or 30 years. Some time or another, these guys getting the short end of the torture stick will get their shit together. Those people are going to do exactly what these rebels are doing now, except they'll be attacking American/Western backed torture-murderers.

And technically, they'll be right.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[kis123]

Guys, you're being ignorant and awful right now. Stop it.

In the last ten years, we've fought two wars in order to bring down totalitarian dictatorships in this part of the world. Think about whether those wars were objectively "important" or not, in your estimation.

What's happening in the Middle East right now is regime change on a massive international scale, and what makes Libya so important is that this is one place where the dictator in question has decided he has nothing to lose and has declared war on his own people. So every single Arab who's thinking about change, and every entrenched leader with an unhappy citizenry, is paying very close attention to how this all turns out.

In other words, what is going on over there right now is going to change the world one way or another; the only thing left up to the West is to make sure the change is for the better. We can help bring democracy to the Middle East if we act decisively. We can actually be good guys on the world stage again, without invading, without setting up secret prisons or killing civilians or any of the old Bush bullshit. Or we can fail, and confirm every ugly myth about what America really thinks of brown people, and a huge opportunity will have been squandered (to say nothing of millions of people we'll be leaving in bondage).

Or if you want an upside you can understand, think about the fact that there are radical Islamists in these countries too. This is like being able to do something in Afghanistan before the Taliban took over. Would that have been "important?"

I just don't know how you can dismiss this moment with "Fuck Libya" or bullshit about "special interests" and "the elite." If you want to live in the world, you should pay more attention to the things that matter.

Since you want to sling names around, try this on for size:

Ignorant socially indoctrinated sheep!

I really thought you wouldn't be so easily fooled, but alas......whether you choose to admit it or not, it's always about commerce. Money rules first and foremost when you talk about big corporations and what they can benefit from war.

Aren't they still rebuilding Iraq? I wonder what Lockheed's and Haliburton's annual reports look like since Operation Iraqi Freedom? It's a huge scam of ridiculous proportions and until people start waking up to the truth, we'll be running to every war out there (at least the ones with corporate elite interests anyway).

If you don't think that this doesn't have corporate/elite interests attached to it (just like almost every war in the history of mankind) then you're right, there's no discussing this. These ARE the things that matter because without them there'd be no war necessary 90% of history (if not 100%). Democracy is always the excuse to do the dirty backroom deals to gain control of a country's assets and resources. That's not the true intended purpose behind Democracy, but it's been poisoned by those who have benefited for generations.

This isn't about the big bad Arab Muslims trying to take over the world. Follow the money and how it can be made by war against a country and see if I'm not right.

Sorry if I don't jump on some faux patriotic train or I'm not afraid of the big bad muslim boogeyman. But it looks like they have you hook, line, and sinker; you've been sold a huge bill of goods.

 

[usgrant]

Did Obama get his ok for a "No Fly Zone" over Libya from his UN masters?

 

[kis123]

Did Obama get his ok for a "No Fly Zone" over Libya from his UN masters?

Obama stays silent, then your neocon buddies say he's soft and protecting his "alleged" muslim brotherhood. He steps in and does something, and you bellyache over where the marching orders came from.

Damned if he does or doesn't huh??

Again, some of you neocons are some of the most unhappy people around. Never satisfied with anything unless it comes out of the mouth of a neo conservative......

 

[Cave In]

Libya. Who actually cared about the place before? Yet again the west sticking our noses in other countries buisness. This is the reason muslims hate us.

Yes theres revolutions going on all over the middle east but why the hell do we need to get involved? If in Libya why not Bahrain? Oh wait because the US has interests there...

 

[Jagermeistered]

I have to ask obama666 and my dear friend kis to digress from the political ideological bashing. This thread is about the analysis of social turmoil, and not political platitudes. I wish for this thread to stay in the general discussion because of its importance for all who is curious.

 

[herts tickler]

Libya. Who actually cared about the place before? Yet again the west sticking our noses in other countries buisness. This is the reason muslims hate us.

Yes theres revolutions going on all over the middle east but why the hell do we need to get involved? If in Libya why not Bahrain? Oh wait because the US has interests there...

i know its cliche but oil. Cameron has been saying hes gona back the rebels for weeks but seems to be hanging back. wouldnt be because gadaffi has the oil fields rigged with bombs would it? been here before aint we? tell you what Cameron send your fucking kids out there to liberate somewhere weve only just started to give a fuck about. the blokes only been in charge 41 years but now all of a sudden its worth throwing away good English lives over. poke it up your arse.

 

[kis123]

I have to ask obama666 and my dear friend kis to digress from the political ideological bashing. This thread is about the analysis of social turmoil, and not political platitudes. I wish for this thread to stay in the general discussion because of its importance for all who is curious.

This has nothing to do with political platitudes; he made a statement and I responded, plain and simple.

This is not Obama's fault; they blame him for everything and it's gotten nauseating. His flip comment really had nothing to do with OP which is something he and his buddies do frequently and something I have no problem calling them on.

And I'm surprised this hasn't been moved to P&R yet anyway; this "crisis" is riddled full of P&R IMO.

 

[kis123]

i know its cliche but oil.

I'm glad you said it......maybe others will listen but hope springs eternal.

It's always about the money; there are wars going on all over the world and they don't even get a blip in MSM. But if there's some sort of commodity or resource these countries provide, then we're fighting for their freedom.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think so.

 

[c7_assassin]

This isn't about the big bad Arab Muslims trying to take over the world. Follow the money and how it can be made by war against a country and see if I'm not right.

Sorry if I don't jump on some faux patriotic train or I'm not afraid of the big bad muslim boogeyman. But it looks like they have you hook, line, and sinker; you've been sold a huge bill of goods.

When you say things like this, you make it pretty clear you're not only not informed about what's happening over there, you're not even informed enough to be wrong in the conventional sense. This isn't a joke; I find your responses truly baffling.

Seriously, what the hell are you even talking about up there? Who said anything about anyone trying to "take over the world"? Where does patriotism figure into this discussion? I mean, where could it figure into this? Do...do you know what words like "Libya" and "Gadhafi" and "patriotism" even mean?

Right now you're not contributing to our discussion of Libya because you're not talking about Libya. You're not saying things that relate to Libya. So...what are you trying to say?

 

[kis123]

When you say things like this, you make it pretty clear you're not only not informed about what's happening over there, you're not even informed enough to be wrong in the conventional sense. This isn't a joke; I find your responses truly baffling.

Seriously, what the hell are you even talking about up there? Who said anything about anyone trying to "take over the world"? Where does patriotism figure into this discussion? I mean, where could it figure into this? Do...do you know what words like "Libya" and "Gadhafi" even mean?

Right now you're not contributing to our discussion of Libya because you're not talking about Libya. You're not saying things that relate to Libya. So...what are you trying to say?

You have your opinion and I have mine. We vehemently disagree with each other and we're not going to.

We have no business over there other than commercial interests wrapped around a big bad Muslim boogeyman some are afraid of. I have nothing to be afraid of.......maybe you do. If you do, then you're behaving accordingly.

I've known about Libya and Gadhafi long before your mother planted you on the earth. You do know Reagan attempted to deal with them in the eighties before you were a thought in your mother's mind. They've had airstrikes on him in the past and he got quiet for awhile; now he's back.

Even then he was saying that the only reason the West was interested in his country was oil interests. Little has changed in 30 years has it?

I'm glad you are educated....just don't think you're the only one who is.

 

[chicago]

The situation in Japan is nowhere near what Chernobyl was. And if it hasn't happened by now, a meltdown is pretty unlikely. My mom is convinced she's going to get cancer from the radiation from Japan, but there's no way that shit will travel across the pacific ocean and make people sick in California. You have more chance of getting cancer from standing too close to your microwave.

As far as Libya goes, I'm still waiting to see what happens next. I don't even get why we had to start throwing missiles around in the first place, really.

 

[c7_assassin]

You have your opinion and I have mine. We vehemently disagree with each other and we're not going to.

We have no business over there other than commercial interests wrapped around a big bad Muslim boogeyman some are afraid of. I have nothing to be afraid of.......maybe you do. If you do, then you're behaving accordingly.

I've known about Libya and Gadhafi long before your mother planted you on the earth. You do know Reagan attempted to deal with them in the eighties before you were a thought in your mother's mind. They've had airstrikes on him in the past and he got quiet for awhile; now he's back.

Even then he was saying that the only reason the West was interested in his country was oil interests. Little has changed in 30 years has it?

I'm glad you are educated....just don't think you're the only one who is.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Here's where I think you're getting it wrong:

This all started with a popular uprising, similar to the ones in Egypt and Tunisia. The West didn't up and invade one day.

The reason this is now an international crisis is because Gadhafi decided to act like the lunatic he is and suppress the uprising with brutal military force. Again, at this point in the story we're still not doing anything. Even at a time when Gadhafi's own embassies were forsaking him, the West had yet to act in any significant way.

You're acting like this is our war of aggression against Gadhafi. This is about allowing the transfer of power in Libya from the dictator to his people that would have happened naturally if Gadhafi didn't have access to mercenaries and fighter-bombers. And it's the place of the international community to do exactly that, is it not?

I mean, should we not have intervened in Yugoslavia or Somalia either?

 

[Jagermeistered]

I will stand by my non-interventionist stance with what is going in Libya. Just like I do with Egypt, and (soon too possibly boil over)Saudi Arabia. These people are sick of outside influences promoting governments(in power), they hate. And, when their is an uprising, the outside influence will finance and help them. If and only if, it meets their, oh, I meant "our" economic ends.

All of this "fornication" to help the people(in these regions); is nothing more than propaganda to get us to care. Would we all be heart broken to know that the Libyians probably doesn't give a shit about us? Or, "need" of our help? No!! They don't need our help...

When will civilized people wake up, and realize that these kind of revolutions(civil wars) are apart of human progress?