i truly now can say that ghost exist

[Babbles]

Science "on the job" admits there is far too much unexplained.

"Wingnut" here 🙄

It must be nice to assume that you

-- know everything,
-- can explain everything, when the most advanced scientists will freely state that we've just begun unraveling the mysteries of the universe...
-- and/or can explain everything you might not be able to *really totally explain
by attributing that lack of data to (some scientific doohickey that hasn't been developed yet) 😛

However, when a GROUP of (at least 7) drug-free, well-adjusted, non-fanatic adults

COLLECT DATA --- or simply witness
(same difference, if said adults are observant & checking one another as well as the environment...)

the equivalent of shadows moving impossibly, when their sources were not ----- clearly immobile in contrast -----

you don't need to believe it,
but you can't dismiss a group sighting and rational examination of (a very real, apparently impossible event...)
as illogical steaming bullcrap

 

[NavelTickler75]

You can't be serious. If you had been dead wouldn't you be eager to talk to someone about it, even if they are scrubbing your crotch?

Actually that was a joke. so no, not serious on that. There was a time i nearly died and saw lights surrounding the dentist and nurse trying to wake me before i blacked out

 

[NavelTickler75]

I'll have a look.

cool

 

[NavelTickler75]

Is that sarcasm? Please tell me it is.

No, actually it isn't. I awoke with the sense someone was in my room and when i turned over, there was a shadow leaning over to choke me. For a long time i assumed it was a demon until i was given a link here at this site as to what a shadow person was.

the only thing it did not have was the typical red eyes.

as for seeing and hearing ghosts, thats true too... more so in my old house than where i live now

 

[rhiannon]

I awoke with the sense someone was in my room and when i turned over, there was a shadow leaning over to choke me.

Google Sleep Paralysis and Bedroom Visitor Phenomenon and you'll have the answer.

 

[Ticklish9's]

Religious beliefs aside, believe it or not, I've witnessed something inexplicable and you'll say, sure, you can't discuss it because no such thing happened --- I don't care. I was with more than one person who saw something very clearly that couldn't be explained by science.

Unfortunately I will also "out" myself to anyone who reads this if they know me and share this forum, so I can only say it may seem irrational but I definitely believe there's more going on here than we can see or explain.

It would be much easier to explain Crop Circles, or the perfect ingenuity of the constructions of ancient Egypt, and I'm sure both have been at least somewhat de-mystified, if only with likely theories,
but this sort of movement was just not explainable. If I'd been alone I would not have believed I really saw it years later, but it was no dream.

Some may say that such things are evidence of God, others may say, and anything is possible, that it's aliens. And this had nothing to do with the afterlife, I CAN at least write that it was just movement that was physically impossible, close and clear as day, and I wasn't the only one to see it, several did.

Although I could say it was something very much like shadows re-arranging themselves when that was not possible, the sources weren't moving, only the shadows. Distinctly.

I'm Christian (who believes in evolution, as any Christian should... Christ spoke in parables, seven days could easily be millions of years...)
so perhaps I'm not objective in terms of (thinking it was a "sign") but on the other hand, I can't explain it.

---------Even if you disagree, there's no excuse for totally disrespecting others' belief systems or manner of expression

I'm disappointed that so many are nitpicking about someone's choice of words ---- I understood every post in this thread.

Which is about ghosts, and I see how that leads to religion (and unfortunately that leads to ALL SORTS of tangents....) 🙄
but I'm not assuming I do or am capable of knowing everything, or that human science can do so. It's mindblowing, but it's imperfect.

We're trained to think, for the most part, to question. Yes, even the Christians.... 🙄

There's a lot of mythology that's been de-bunked, but once you witness something that you realize cannot be explained with any physical science,

whether it's a knife suddenly moving fast, no one near it, from a stationary position on top of a box (maybe sitting in the middle of the top of the box, not even at the edge?), to suddenly rush to embed itself a few feet away,

....or shadows moving independently (it wasn't that creepy but it was the equivalent, that is a perfect parallel)

-- you'll understand --- because you'll have collected that objective data yourself.
If you're with others, all the better, you don't doubt yourself when you know others have seen the same impossible occurrance. Because I agree, our senses can fool us. But not a group of people, to that extent.

Babbles, I appreciate that I don't have all the answers (and neither do you - in fact, no human being does). But there is a flaw in your logic. You say you witnessed something which cannot be explained by science. That is a MAJOR assumption. More accurately, you witnessed something which you yourself cannot explain.

If I see something truly incredible that I am unable to explain, that doesn't mean it's not natural or that it lacks a rational explanation - it just means that I can't explain it. These are two very different things!


And if you don't think the sense of a group of people can be fooled, spend some time talking to lawyers and cops. Eyewitness testimony is EXTREMELY unreliable. Here's just one fun example: http://www.livescience.com/health/invisible-gorilla-basketball-video-inattentiveness-100712.html



Furthermore, your thinking is flawed in assuming that scientific understanding is a stationary concept. Bear in mind that until recently, a great many things were not explainable by science, because we simply hadn't reached that understanding yet. Disease, for example. In the 1300's, the method of disease transmission was not explainable by science - but that doesn't mean there wasn't a rational explanation, it just means we didn't know it yet!



And finally, you're once again making the argument from ignorance - you saw something that you couldn't explain, so therefore your explanation must be true. As you can see, that's clearly illogical. You don't have the explanation for what you saw, so that means you don't know what it was - and it therefore cannot be proof of anything supernatural.

 

[Ticklish9's]

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

Your argument here is very flawed. I can't rationalize away the evidence for the theory of gravity, because that evidence is clear and the conclusions solid. The theory makes predictions and those predictions are consistently borne out. The reason the evidence for God can be "rationalized away" is because it fails to make any clear cut predictions - it fails to be testable. In effect, you're saying that the only reason I have trouble believing in God is because I've already decided there is no God. On the contrary! I was a believer for a very long time - a fierce believer, no less, who argued deeply with atheists using the exact same techniques you are. It was my quest to better understand the nature of my faith in order to better serve it that led me to eventually abandon it. I sought long and hard to prove the existence of God, and found over and over again the flaws and illogical thinking that girded the entire tenuous framework of religion.


As for the rest of your post, I'll simply say "anthropic principle" and let you have at it. Simply put, I find it utterly unsurprising that living beings who require an Earth like planet to survive find themselves on an Earth like planet. Any planet that we required would inevitably be the planet on which we find ourselves because if we were on another planet we, in this form, would not exist. It's a very far cry to argue that because the place where we live is suitable for us that God must exist. If it wasn't suitable for us, we wouldn't be here to ask the question!

 

[Ticklish9's]

Man lives in a universe of cause and effect and the consequences of certain causes are inescapable. Fire burns, water drowns, disease germs destroy. These facts have moral implications. Men live in a universe in which the consequences of what they do are inescapable, and therefore their responsibility for what they do is equally inescapable. Without this burden of 'natural law' man could do as he liked with impunity, and there would be no responsibility. God made the universe this way because He is a moral God who makes men responsible beings with freewill to choose how they will act.

It is an astonishing amount of hubris for any human being to claim to know the mind of God.

 

[Ticklish9's]

A good book on debating dawkings, comes from scott hahn.

http://www.amazon.com/Answering-New-Atheism-Dismantling-Dawkins/dp/1931018480

Prospective buyers, be sure to scroll down and read the reviews before purchasing.

 

[Ticklish9's]

oh and yes i believe in ghosts.
not only have i seen them and heard them, but ive been attacked by a shadow person

Goodness, that sounds terrifying! What was it about the shadow person that clearly identified it as a shadow person?

 

[Ticklish9's]

"Wingnut" here 🙄

It must be nice to assume that you

-- know everything,
-- can explain everything, when the most advanced scientists will freely state that we've just begun unraveling the mysteries of the universe...
-- and/or can explain everything you might not be able to *really totally explain
by attributing that lack of data to (some scientific doohickey that hasn't been developed yet) 😛

However, when a GROUP of (at least 7) drug-free, well-adjusted, non-fanatic adults

COLLECT DATA --- or simply witness
(same difference, if said adults are observant & checking one another as well as the environment...)

the equivalent of shadows moving impossibly, when their sources were not ----- clearly immobile in contrast -----

you don't need to believe it,
but you can't dismiss a group sighting and rational examination of (a very real, apparently impossible event...)
as illogical steaming bullcrap

You're right. But nobody here is dismissing your experience as illogical steaming bullcrap.

It's your EXPLANATION that we're dismissing thus.


You saw something that was completely unexplainable by any knowledge you currently possess. I believe that! But what does that have to do with ghosts?

Again, this is called the argument from ignorance - you saw something you can't explain, therefore here is your explanation. You can't explain something to us and then as evidence for your case tell us that you saw something you can't explain!

 

[Ticklish9's]

No, actually it isn't. I awoke with the sense someone was in my room and when i turned over, there was a shadow leaning over to choke me. For a long time i assumed it was a demon until i was given a link here at this site as to what a shadow person was.

the only thing it did not have was the typical red eyes.

as for seeing and hearing ghosts, thats true too... more so in my old house than where i live now

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/guide/sleep-paralysis

Over the centuries, symptoms of sleep paralysis have been described in many ways and often attributed to an "evil" presence: unseen night demons in ancient times, the old hag in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, and alien abductors.

I've suffered this with unfortunate regularity, though less so as I've grown older. It was EXTREMELY terrifying when I was very young and didn't know what was going on; I thought for sure I'd been attacked by aliens or something similar.


Armed now with knowledge of what had happened, however, they are much less frightening, and I know to simply wait for the attack to pass, however scary it may be in the moment.

 

[TickVix]

I was watching a documentary on "ghosts" not to long ago and it seemed as if there were quite a few still hanging around so to speak lol. Makes me wonder if that's the case when people die, do they just hang out or do they really "pass" over to the other side. Interesting food for thought. In the case that Shane was describing, if that was me and a knife mysterious flew my way, I'd probably try to put some logical ex plantation to it.Oh you know the ol' "knives fly mysteriously evyerday" aka my logical explanation lol. Then I'd quit 🙂.

 

[shane2]

As we get closer and closer to the Second Coming of Christ, there will be increasing and widespread doubt about whether Jesus even existed. People will also start wondering if God really exists and believers will leave the Christian faith (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, 1 Timothy 4:1-2, and 2 Peter 2:1-3). Do you think we're already seeing these signs?
__________________
Ticklish 9 I believe I've provided enough evidence that a god must exist and you still chose to be in so much denial and your pride has blinded you I wish you good luck in the future so far I've brought more evidence of a god existing then your evidence of a non existing god and I can tell in your arguements that your running outta things to comback with but the time comes you will believe again and regret chosing a different path.

Ticklish vix the place where it happen all of this I explained the the first pages look back and tell me what kind of logical explaination could determin that it was not a paranormal act happening I believe in the paranormal and I don't know the history of the building but in the cameras you can clearly see the knife on top of the box just sitting and quickly just flying off the box into the floor and land threw three folded boxes at an impossible angle the time frame was to close together for some one to doctored the caMeras the neiborhood is small there were no fans blowng, no constrution site for miles, so you tell me what could've happen so far no one can't seem to figure it out .

 

[SpiffyTickler]

I didn't think this thread could devolve much past the OP. Guess I was wrong.

 

[Ticklish9's]

As we get closer and closer to the Second Coming of Christ, there will be increasing and widespread doubt about whether Jesus even existed. People will also start wondering if God really exists and believers will leave the Christian faith (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, 1 Timothy 4:1-2, and 2 Peter 2:1-3). Do you think we're already seeing these signs?
__________________
Ticklish 9 I believe I've provided enough evidence that a god must exist and you still chose to be in so much denial and your pride has blinded you I wish you good luck in the future so far I've brought more evidence of a god existing then your evidence of a non existing god and I can tell in your arguements that your running outta things to comback with but the time comes you will believe again and regret chosing a different path.

Ticklish vix the place where it happen all of this I explained the the first pages look back and tell me what kind of logical explaination could determin that it was not a paranormal act happening I believe in the paranormal and I don't know the history of the building but in the cameras you can clearly see the knife on top of the box just sitting and quickly just flying off the box into the floor and land threw three folded boxes at an impossible angle the time frame was to close together for some one to doctored the caMeras the neiborhood is small there were no fans blowng, no constrution site for miles, so you tell me what could've happen so far no one can't seem to figure it out .

You haven't provided a single piece of evidence for God. Your argument so far is "the universe is really complicated and I don't understand how it works therefore God did it." Well, that doesn't prove God, it only proves you don't know everything (which is fine, I don't know everything either).

If God is kicking around up there and listening, and genuinely values humanity, then why is the only way He ever bothered to try getting in touch with us with a book from thousands of years ago full of contradictions, misogyny, and lies? If that's really God's work, he's a TERRIBLE communicator, which is a little surprising for an omniscient entity.

I don't know the mechanics for how the universe began - and neither do you. The difference is that I am honest about the limits of my knowledge, whereas you've created an explanation to rationalize your limits.


Look, do you believe in Zeus? Do you think that lightning comes from Zeus's anger? Of course not. It's ridiculous. But to somebody who didn't know any better, the Zeus explanation sound plausible because there were all these holy men who believed it, and because they didn't really have any better explanation. But just because they didn't understand about electricity didn't make their God true. See how illogical that is?

Now we find ourselves 2,000 years later and you're saying science doesn't understand every detail about the universe (A true statement, and one science is also happy to make) so you're positing a sky human creating it with human motivations that just so happen to match up to exactly what you believe, all because of these holy folk and this old, error prone book. It's like God is the ultimate sockpuppet who just happens to agree with everything you believe.

And not only that, but YOUR God is the particular God, not any of the millions of other Gods who make the same claim and have followers of their own. You can't all be right!

And FURTHERMORE, you're making the claim that not only does this God exist, not only is it specifically your god, but ALSO that you - you, some imperfect human being - completely understand His plan for the world based on your reading of this old book, the book you couldn't even recognize quotes from when I cited it.

And as evidence, you offer only that "the universe seems really complicated."

Are you serious?



Tell you what, let's run a little experiment. I'll post my responses here on this website using my computer, which runs on principles of electricity and engineering that we understand thanks to the scientific method. Meanwhile, you can start posting your responses by going home and praying over your television. I'm sure God can find a way to post the messages for you.

That would be fantastic proof and, I'm sure, very easy for God to accomplish. Just record video of you praying over the TV and the text posting here and I'll happily accede my claim.

 

[Ticklish9's]

Ticklish vix the place where it happen all of this I explained the the first pages look back and tell me what kind of logical explaination could determin that it was not a paranormal act happening I believe in the paranormal and I don't know the history of the building but in the cameras you can clearly see the knife on top of the box just sitting and quickly just flying off the box into the floor and land threw three folded boxes at an impossible angle the time frame was to close together for some one to doctored the caMeras the neiborhood is small there were no fans blowng, no constrution site for miles, so you tell me what could've happen so far no one can't seem to figure it out .

Ok, let me run through this one more time. You just specifically said "I can't see what could have caused that" - in other words you don't know what caused it - and used that as evidence for your claim that it's ghosts.

Again, breaking that down, your argument is "I don't know what caused that therefore I know what caused that" which is clearly useless as an argument. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's ghosts. Have you eliminated every other possibility? Of course not. You eliminated the one or two possibilities that came immediately to mind and then just assumed "well it's probably ghosts then!"

Are you even seeing how this makes no sense?

 

[shane2]

Well ticklish 9 if read currectly I also explaind all the reasons that I why it was impossible for some sort of laws of physics that could of made this happen and so far you haven't explained why or what could of made that happen my only explaination was some sort of paranormal activity . I have no other way to explain it and no body else does my statment was never i dont know how it happen and I do know but would it be coincidence if the building did have a bad history of some one dieing or coincidence that many place where people have died their have been ghost siteings but like i said i dont know the history of the building .
I don't know where you keep getting where i said he was my personal god i believe theres one god only and the bible never says to join a certin religion it just says to have faith in him and his son jesus christ and you are a bible reader then why would alot of the profecies" sorry i'm a bad speller " alot of the profecies are coming true is it coincidence you obviously don't know much of the bible or your reserch on other religions if anything you havn't still brought me any evidence of non existing god all you keep stating is that god does this wrong and why does he let this happen but i already explained that already and you just keep going in circles or as i stated before a broken record as for the scientific part of my statements you havn't dis proven it or really talked about it basicly your answers are i can't explain it and its all coincidence and god can't communicate right and hes evil after i gave answers for your statements but lik,e i said your pride has left you blind .

 

[Ticklish9's]

Well ticklish 9 if read currectly I also explaind all the reasons that I why it was impossible for some sort of laws of physics that could of made this happen and so far you haven't explained why or what could of made that happen my only explaination was some sort of paranormal activity . I have no other way to explain it and no body else does my statment was never i dont know how it happen and I do know but would it be coincidence if the building did have a bad history of some one dieing or coincidence that many place where people have died their have been ghost siteings but like i said i dont know the history of the building.

No, you explained reasons why YOU don't think it's possible for physics or cosmology to explain it. Here are the flaws in your reasoning:

A) Just because science doesn't have a complete explanation for something now doesn't mean that it won't in the future. Science is a work in progress, a constant refinement of our knowledge through test and experiment. We didn't have a way of explaining germ theory until the last few hundred years, but that doesn't mean it wasn't germs all along - we just didn't have the answer.

B) Even if science doesn't have an explanation, that doesn't mean that your explanation is the right one. There are about 10,000 explanations for your situation; you've randomly decided that it was paranormal, but you don't have any evidence for that other than "well I can't think of any other explanation." That is terrible logic! I'm not a mechanic and I don't have a clue as to how the motor in my car functions, but that doesn't mean I assume it's ghosts.

I don't know where you keep getting where i said he was my personal god

I get it from statements like your next freaking sentence:

i believe theres one god only

That's YOUR God that YOU have chosen to believe in.

the bible never says to join a certin religion it just says to have faith in him and his son jesus christ

Seriously? Seriously, the bible never says join a certain religion it just says have faith in the God of the bible his son Jesus Christ? In other words - to be a Christian? How is that not joining a certain religion? It certainly isn't compatible with believing in Zeus or Mohammed.

you are a bible reader then why would alot of the profecies" sorry i'm a bad speller " alot of the profecies are coming true is it coincidence you obviously don't know much of the bible or your reserch on other religions if anything you havn't still brought me any evidence of non existing god all you keep stating is that god does this wrong and why does he let this happen but i already explained that already and you just keep going in circles or as i stated before a broken record as for the scientific part of my statements you havn't dis proven it or really talked about it basicly your answers are i can't explain it and its all coincidence and god can't communicate right and hes evil after i gave answers for your statements but lik,e i said your pride has left you blind .

That's a terrible argument. Look, let's make a bet. I'll bet 1,000$ right now that I have a baseball in my hand. If I don't have one in my hand right now, I'll give you $1,000. Now you'd say "ok, prove to me you have a baseball." And using your logic, a valid response is "PROVE I DON'T!" That's just dumb. If you keep asking me for proof of my baseball and I keep saying things like "well you haven't offered any evidence that I don't have a baseball" you would quite justifiably assume I'm trying to rip you off for a thousand dollars.

YOU are the one making the extraordinary claim that there is some magical sky man out there. I'm just asking you for proof - and your response is "Aha! You haven't proven that He doesn't exist!" You're right - and I may never prove that! We may never know! I'm happy to admit that I don't know - but without any evidence, I find it unlikely. You have only offered evidence for why you don't think different scientific explanations make sense, but none of that proves your particular brand of God any more than it proves Zeus. Yet you carry on in your certainty, proclaiming that there must be a God because I can't prove there isn't one. And yet you with your certain, arrogant knowledge claim that I am the one with the pride problem.

Curious.

Your prophecies are a whole new ball of wax, by the way. Jesus predicting floods and famine is not exactly earth-shattering. I can make a prediction that at some unspecified time in the unspecified future there will be "more" earthquakes than there are right now. That prophecy will come true, too. That doesn't make me a psychic any more than it makes me the Son of God.

 

[shane2]

A baseball in your hand wow your comparing my statement with very bad analogy a I 'm to my scientific statements their are their pictures, and scientist, videos, etc, thats how I know but a base ball in your hand lol.
Is it coincidence that the prophecy is still happen till this day not only is it in the bible its also in quran, kabahla it" i think thats you spell it" but they coincidencely connect at the last chapter in their books.
Theirs only one that doesn't make just mine one god for all is what i'm saying it's just that many people are blind and can't see that which is also why people give religion a bad name and just because you believe in jesus christ doesn't that I'm part of a religion catholics, johova witness believe in him to, christianity falls in many subject to live a christian life means I believe in christ and god and to obey the bible but theirs no religion just called christian that how i know you have lack of reserch and as for the zeus thing come 'on well learned that in grade school quit useing it as a cop out.
So for the fact that you don't have don't a explaination your telling me that for the future to have one wow well as of now sice you don't have ananswer but i do i guess theirs no point of debating the knife problem right .

 

[john getty]

A baseball in your hand wow your comparing my statement with very bad analogy a I 'm to my scientific statements their are their pictures, and scientist, videos, etc, thats how I know but a base ball in your hand lol.
Is it coincidence that the prophecy is still happen till this day not only is it in the bible its also in quran, kabahla it" i think thats you spell it" but they coincidencely connect at the last chapter in their books.
Theirs only one that doesn't make just mine one god for all is what i'm saying it's just that many people are blind and can't see that which is also why people give religion a bad name and just because you believe in jesus christ doesn't that I'm part of a religion catholics, johova witness believe in him to, christianity falls in many subject to live a christian life means I believe in christ and god and to obey the bible but theirs no religion just called christian that how i know you have lack of reserch and as for the zeus thing come 'on well learned that in grade school quit useing it as a cop out.
So for the fact that you don't have don't a explaination your telling me that for the future to have one wow well as of now sice you don't have ananswer but i do i guess theirs no point of debating the knife problem right .

Islam is a plagiarism of Christianity, Christianity is a plagiarism of Judaism.

Catholics, Lutherans, Jehova's witnesses, the Westboro Baptist Church are all different DENOMINATIONS of the same religion.

I don't think the Zeus argument is a cop out, people used to believe that he was the king of the Gods, they don't any more, this could be the future of the Judeo-Christian God.

I have no fucking idea what you said after that.

 

[Ticklish9's]

I think this conversation has accomplished all it's going to achieve. I encourage all those who may be reading this thread to find their own answer rather than simply accepting ours. Test claims, seek evidence, and find truth.

I am only a human being. I have been wrong in the past, and I will be wrong in the future. That's why it's worth finding out the truth by testing and re-testing, by comparing my answers with the answers of others and finding the best possible description of reality. Beware those who make extravagant claims with no evidence. I have offered nothing that you cannot find for yourself, no claims that you cannot test for yourself. If you test my claims and find them wanting, then I absolutely want to know that I am wrong so I can revise my beliefs.

This is the path to truth.

 

[venray]

The afterlife (in my opinion) is the passing from what we know of this life into another plane or form of existence. The laws of physics call for the conservation of energy. Energy can be changed from one form or another but not destroyed. We are partially made up of energy and therfor this energy must go somewhere when what we know as being alive ceases.

Now whether we go into another dimension or heaven or hell or join with the energy from whence we came (God) is something we cannot know for sure until we pass on...

There is however the existence of some sort of life after what we call death. Personal experiences are this evidence. I myself have seen my dad many times since his death over 20 years ago. i know for a fact that he is still out there somewhere. He has touched me physically and made his presence known to me. There is no way anyone could ever convince me that it didnt happen as I trust my senses....

Where we go and what we believe happens is speculation or faith, but it is fact that the energy that ran through our nervous system when we were "alive" indeed goes on somewhere after we "pass"...

There can be no doubt of this.....not for me...

 

[NavelTickler75]

Google Sleep Paralysis and Bedroom Visitor Phenomenon and you'll have the answer.

I have read on this before yes, and that IS one answer to the question BUT not necessarily the only one

 

[NavelTickler75]

Prospective buyers, be sure to scroll down and read the reviews before purchasing.

and what would be wrong wih those reviews?