Is the word Fagot not offensive anymore?

[BellaRisa]

[EDIT] - Wait wait wait, kis. You're saying that you have a RIGHT to become violent because someone called you a dirty word? You are kidding, right? I must have misinterpreted that because no reasonable adult would ever really believe that's an acceptable way to think.

This from the guy I argue with about hitting little kids... :runs: 😉

Seriously though, you're totally on the right track. The problem, sadly, is that bullies count on this way of thinking in civilized people, and use it to harm and control and to get their way. Turning the other cheek just gets that cheek spat upon too, all too often. We're taught as children to ignore creeps on the playground so "they'll get bored and stop". I dunno about you but I rarely saw that come to fruition, usually it just escalated until the weaker kid either had a nervous breakdown or fought back. I am **not** saying that violence is ever appropriate. I'm saying...there may not be a right answer to this in reality.

 

[kis123]

This from the guy I argue with about hitting little kids... :runs: 😉

Seriously though, you're totally on the right track. The problem, sadly, is that bullies count on this way of thinking in civilized people, and use it to harm and control and to get their way. Turning the other cheek just gets that cheek spat upon too, all too often. We're taught as children to ignore creeps on the playground so "they'll get bored and stop". I dunno about you but I rarely saw that come to fruition, usually it just escalated until the weaker kid either had a nervous breakdown or fought back. I am **not** saying that violence is ever appropriate. I'm saying...there may not be a right answer to this in reality.

I knew someone around me understood what I've been saying ad nauseum! I'm not a physically violent person unless you don't give me a choice. But I don't tolerate verbal bullies and I don't back away from them. Spent most of my life avoiding them, ignoring them, and walking away....until I couldn't take any more and fought back. Even landed me in jail once..but the case was dropped and he NEVER did that to me again.

You can't walk away....they don't let you.

 

[kis123]

It's a word. Nothing more and nothing less.

Yes it's a word....but a far cry from minimal.

In the most base manner, ************=************=cauliflower. Personal anecdotes are trite and meaningless.

************=black person described with insulting and degrading language
************=homosexual described with insulting and degrading language
cauliflower=a white colored vegetable I tend to like with broccoli or bake as a macaroni and cheese alternative.

Obviously these words AREN'T equal......

Speech and language are not concrete constructs, and as such, I personally don't feel as though I should have any sort of remorse in using a single word in any given context.

No one's asking you to have any remorse for anything; just use the same strategy when you manage to piss off the wrong person because they don't see it the same way you do. As long as you're willing to accept the possible consequences, then rock on!

 

[BellaRisa]

Even landed me in jail once..but the case was dropped and he NEVER did that to me again.

I knew it! Madea Goes To Jail is about you, tell the truth and save a lie...

 

[ViperGTS]

I knew someone around me understood what I've been saying ad nauseum! I'm not a physically violent person unless you don't give me a choice. But I don't tolerate verbal bullies and I don't back away from them. Spent most of my life avoiding them, ignoring them, and walking away....until I couldn't take any more and fought back. Even landed me in jail once..but the case was dropped and he NEVER did that to me again.

You can't walk away....they don't let you.

And you learned the WRONG lesson.

The fact that verbal insults incite you to physical violence tells me a lot about you as a person and the kind of character you are. I'll keep that in mind.

You keep thinking that you're doing the right thing. Be your thought right or wrong, others will follow suit and keep doing what they think is the right thing, and racism will continue to thrive in this world because, in part, people like you keep charging the batteries for the ignorant bullies of the world to keep operating. It's cyclical - and you're so blinded by your pride and ego that you just are not able to see it.

Your opinion is valid and you have every right to it. This is an argument that no one will win because everyone, including myself, is so affirmed that their opinion is the correct one that we refuse to listen to anyone else's - and that will never, ever change.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Being a minority gives you ownership over hateful words that could be used against you - you can reject or reclaim them.

Bullshit. You own nothing of the sort, and neither do I. A word is a word, nothing more.

Um, who are you to decide true suffering?

Everyone decides for themselves. I have my definition, you have yours.

Where's the line? How did you come up this "majority of people" statistic? Because if you really want to do research, 86.2% of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth reported experiencing harassment at school last year. See www.glsen.org for more information.

Oh, I get it. I'm supposed to assume everyone has experienced horrible discrimination.

I'm supposed to walk on eggshells with everyone about these words, because I'm a straight white male and I don't "own" these words. And the only people allowed to be made fun of are straight white males, because they have all the money and all the power.

I've seen this routine before, and I'm sick of it.

I much prefer a society where people are blunt with each other and aren't so thin-skinned. All these social double standards get rather tiresome, so that's why I defy them whenever I get the chance.

 

[MrMacphisto]

And you know that how?? If someone doesn't discuss their personal experiences with you, how do you know what they've been through?

I never said I did, but I'm willing to make certain assumptions because I despise being PC.

Unless you know someone since birth, you have no idea what their experiences have been. Unless I told you that my then 16 year old autistic son was harrassed by police because he was in the "wrong" neighborhood and looked "suspicious", would you know that? Unless I told you my biracial daughter gets picked apart on the racial issue regularly, would you know? Unless I told you that I can't find a job unless I straighten my hair and not look so "ethnic", would you know? Or that as children if my sister and I needed to get to certain places, we'd better be carrying something prepared to fight the ************-screaming whites on their porches? Would you know any of that Mac unless I told you?

You are loosely assuming beacuse we live in "better times" that these things no longer exist. Well, they do and unfortunately are a part of us whether it's about race, sexual orientation, or whatever discrimination issue happens to be on the table.

And so to clarify, it's inappropriate to determine who has and hasn't had the experiences you claim haven't happened to them. Unless someone tells you, you don't know what they've been through. What's considered minimal to you could be earth-shattering to someone else. I'll ask again, why take the risk especially when it's truly unnecessary?

You know what sucks the most about this country? Diversity. If we each just lived in separate countries according to culture, there would be a lot less conflict within each country. The more diverse your country is, the more potential there is for conflict, racism, and a lot of other bullshit.

So, while I understand your sentiment, it gets a bit difficult to stomach this concept that I have to guard what I say when minorities themselves don't. Until there's a more even balance between what's socially acceptable for me to say and what's socially acceptable for non-whites to say, I'm going to continue finding it hard to limit my speech to appease others. For the time being, I'll go with whatever I feel like doing.

 

[MrMacphisto]

If it's dependent on context then surely it's only offensive in context? If I call you a ************ because we're down the pub and you mischieviously press a button on the slot machine, thus costing me a quid, it's not offensive. If I use the word to make a gay person feel ostracised and intimidated, it's offensive.

************ has only one context. If I call you a ************ because we're down the pub and you mischieviously press a button on the slot machine, thus costing me a quid, it's still an offensive word wether or not you find it offensive. ************ evolved from a term of mild abuse, was appropriated by hate groups to belittle homosexuals, and is now becoming what it was before. ************ started out life as a lazy way of saying "negroid", and is thus a contraction of a word that seeks to pidgeon-hole and demean people because of the colour of their skin.

Then I suppose rappers are demeaning each other when they say "my nigga."

 

[playgirl]

Being a minority gives you ownership over hateful words that could be used against you - you can reject or reclaim them.

i apologize if someone has gone into greater depth and i've missed it as i skimmed through the responses.

i think sasaxrah was on target when she spoke about a minority reclaiming certain words. it has become the case that within a community, certain 'offensive' words have been reclaimed as 'power' words by members of the minority. words such as bitch, girl, boy, slut, ************, dyke, witch, etc. have been reclaimed by those who experienced discriminatory behavior or slurs based on the use of such words against them. for such words to be directed toward a member of that minority may still be considered a slur. for instance, it's one thing for you to criticize a member of your family because they are 'your' people, but a completely different thing for a stranger or acquaintance to level harsh criticism against a member of your family for they are not part of the inner circle of privilege.

an example and explanation is the reclaiming of the word 'slut' given in the beginning of one of the primer's of polyamory: the ethical slut by Dossie Easton and Janet W. Hardy.

 

[kis123]

Then I suppose rappers are demeaning each other when they say "my nigga."

As a matter of fact.....yes they are.

Some will sell their immortal souls in the name of turning a fast buck. Doesn't make it right regardless of what the beat sounds like.........

 

[kis123]

I never said I did, but I'm willing to make certain assumptions because I despise being PC.



You know what sucks the most about this country? Diversity. If we each just lived in separate countries according to culture, there would be a lot less conflict within each country. The more diverse your country is, the more potential there is for conflict, racism, and a lot of other bullshit.

So, while I understand your sentiment, it gets a bit difficult to stomach this concept that I have to guard what I say when minorities themselves don't. Until there's a more even balance between what's socially acceptable for me to say and what's socially acceptable for non-whites to say, I'm going to continue finding it hard to limit my speech to appease others. For the time being, I'll go with whatever I feel like doing.

No one is asking you to guard your speech. But it would be nice if you'd dip into your common sense and general compassion. I'm not controlling what whites should and should not say, but let's let common sense rule instead of what you decide is okay. Then you don't appear as an insensitive white male who is depicted as part of the height of the societal food chain.

Just my thoughts on the matter........perish the thought that I had any other agenda...........

 

[meangry]

Yes it's a word....but a far cry from minimal.

Words a mere symbols which evolve, change, adapt, appear, disappear, and mutate over the course of a dialect. We have a living language. Once you remove what your current construct of what a word is, all you have is an empty symbol for codification.

************=black person described with insulting and degrading language
************=homosexual described with insulting and degrading language
cauliflower=a white colored vegetable I tend to like with broccoli or bake as a macaroni and cheese alternative.

Obviously these words AREN'T equal......

As signifiers in the most literal of senses, they are. Fag still means cigarette. ************ is also a term used for respect (that person's my ************). Those words can be ANYTHING a group of people want it to be. Some people tried to start saying Canadian as a way to codify blacks.

I'm sorry, those words are completely equal.

No one's asking you to have any remorse for anything; just use the same strategy when you manage to piss off the wrong person because they don't see it the same way you do. As long as you're willing to accept the possible consequences, then rock on!

I use common sense in public places and in private settings. I just said ************ to a few of my friends probably four times. My white friend I call on the phone? I open my calls by saying "hey fag" or "shut up ************", and the reason for it is double edged. In one way, my usage of the words is a play on the social construct of the word, and coming from our community, we would hear people use these terms used as a negative manner. So we decided to blow it up and make it what it really was; stupid bluster.

At the same time, by making those terms into terminology that can be used universally, in a manner which actually shows the utmost respect (because I am trusting you to get this humor because you are my close friend). We have displaced the 'social' construct of the word and transformed it to mean something else entirely, because the signifier can't mean what it means and bring about laughter when someone calls you a ************, ************, spick, etc.

 

[kis123]

Words a mere symbols which evolve, change, adapt, appear, disappear, and mutate over the course of a dialect. We have a living language. Once you remove what your current construct of what a word is, all you have is an empty symbol for codification.



As signifiers in the most literal of senses, they are. Fag still means cigarette. ************ is also a term used for respect (that person's my ************). Those words can be ANYTHING a group of people want it to be. Some people tried to start saying Canadian as a way to codify blacks.

I'm sorry, those words are completely equal.

I use common sense in public places and in private settings. I just said ************ to a few of my friends probably four times. My white friend I call on the phone? I open my calls by saying "hey fag" or "shut up ************", and the reason for it is double edged. In one way, my usage of the words is a play on the social construct of the word, and coming from our community, we would hear people use these terms used as a negative manner. So we decided to blow it up and make it what it really was; stupid bluster.

At the same time, by making those terms into terminology that can be used universally, in a manner which actually shows the utmost respect (because I am trusting you to get this humor because you are my close friend). We have displaced the 'social' construct of the word and transformed it to mean something else entirely, because the signifier can't mean what it means and bring about laughter when someone calls you a ************, ************, spick, etc.

Okay Meangry. This is the part of the conversation where we respectfully agree to disagree. You have made your point and there's no way I can change your way of thinking. Although I think that's too bad,
you're a grown man and can think whatever way you want. I just hope you never run into someone who doesn't think as you do.........it could get really ugly.

What I find amazingly interesting is that I'm getting pushback from men I normally respect their opinions as interesting and refreshing. Now I'm looking at three white males who are having issues with reality. It doesn't meet your terms yet you continue to fight, buck, and kick like wild mules over what is normally societaly acceptable behavior. I don't get it, but all of you are right; you're entiled to your own opinion even if it kicks against the brick of society.

 

[BellaRisa]

What I find amazingly interesting is that I'm getting pushback from men I normally respect their opinions as interesting and refreshing. Now I'm looking at three white males who are having issues with reality. It doesn't meet your terms yet you continue to fight, buck, and kick like wild mules over what is normally societaly acceptable behavior. I don't get it, but all of you are right; you're entitled to your own opinion even if it kicks against the brick of society.

This.

When it becomes more about being 'right' than about respect and compassion for your fellow man, and frankly simple good manners, there's no point in continuing the conversation.

Meanwhile, for a bit of relevant levity 🙂 :

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[rhiannon]

I say once the person you say it to feels insulted - it's an insult! You can always say you are sorry and you didn't mean it in an insulting way, but most of the time people know when it was meant that way!

In Germany, insulting is illegal. Showing the middle finger can cost you up to 5000 Euro.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but guess what: your rights end when you are starting to violate the rights of someone else executing yours!

 

[Mister Scruff]

Then I suppose rappers are demeaning each other when they say "my nigga."

As a matter of fact.....yes they are.

Some will sell their immortal souls in the name of turning a fast buck. Doesn't make it right regardless of what the beat sounds like.........

What she said.

You know what sucks the most about this country? Diversity. If we each just lived in separate countries according to culture, there would be a lot less conflict within each country. The more diverse your country is, the more potential there is for conflict, racism, and a lot of other bullshit.

Perhaps we could put arches over the entrances to some of the other countries too, and have the words "Arbeit Macht Frei" in big iron letters across the arches. Then all would be well.

So, while I understand your sentiment, it gets a bit difficult to stomach this concept that I have to guard what I say when minorities themselves don't. Until there's a more even balance between what's socially acceptable for me to say and what's socially acceptable for non-whites to say, I'm going to continue finding it hard to limit my speech to appease others. For the time being, I'll go with whatever I feel like doing.

I'd like to believe this was true, but I seriously doubt you, or most people with sense for that matter, are able to completely dispense with their social graces in all situations. Say Mike Tyson brings his black boxing friends into the pub for a drink, will you continue to say the word "************" freely and openly, and count on the fact that it's just a word and the seemingly arbitrary way in which societal norms are decided mean they shouldn't be offended to save you from a beating?

No, you're not, because a) you're not fucking stupid, and b) you're not a hateful person and have no reason to make people feel disrespected or demeaned because of the colour of their skin. At least that's what I hope is the case.

 

[ViperGTS]

Okay Meangry. This is the part of the conversation where we respectfully agree to disagree. You have made your point and there's no way I can change your way of thinking. Although I think that's too bad,
you're a grown man and can think whatever way you want. I just hope you never run into someone who doesn't think as you do.........it could get really ugly.

What I find amazingly interesting is that I'm getting pushback from men I normally respect their opinions as interesting and refreshing. Now I'm looking at three white males who are having issues with reality. It doesn't meet your terms yet you continue to fight, buck, and kick like wild mules over what is normally societaly acceptable behavior. I don't get it, but all of you are right; you're entiled to your own opinion even if it kicks against the brick of society.

I think your problem is that you are trying to change the way other people think and act. Who do you think you are to try to change the way someone acts? You are only responsible for yourself, and you refuse to even open your mind to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there's something you might be able to do to help fight racism, rather than being violent and saying it's ok to break the law because you feel like someone said something mean to you.

Me, have issues with reality? Please.

I'm through with this thread - I just make a point not to use these offensive words with people I think may take offense to them, period, so I'm all set. I'm not going to continue to participate in a thread where I am being attacked for trying to suggest an alternative way to fix a pretty shitty situation, just because the person I am suggesting it to is digging their heels in and insisting that there's only one way to kill racism and that they have no responsibility in how to resolve the matter.

This is an argument that noone will ever win because ignorant people who use that kind of language to hurt other will ALWAYS exist, and the people who feel they need to be offended by such remarks will NEVER consider doing anything other than getting angry. Both parties are wrong and neither party will ever go away.

 

[obama666]

In what ways are homosexuals discriminated against other then in some states they can't get married? Housing? Employment? Food Service? Where do you live in the Middle East?... Next word that will meet the criteria of Political Correctness will be... Socialist.

 

[kis123]

I think your problem is that you are trying to change the way other people think and act. Who do you think you are to try to change the way someone acts? You are only responsible for yourself, and you refuse to even open your mind to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there's something you might be able to do to help fight racism, rather than being violent and saying it's ok to break the law because you feel like someone said something mean to you.

Don't recall myself EVER saying it's okay to break the law--you're adding words I haven't typed. But people break the law every day; it's wrong but it's........REALITY! If anyone's trying to change the way people think and act, it has been you this entire thread. If people don't agree with you (myself in particular) are met with backhanded lobs and accusations. Everyone is NOT going to agree with you; a simple "agree to disagree" approach would've sufficed instead of you being borderline insulting with every response.

Me, have issues with reality? Please.

Yes, you do. If you think people are just going to walk away when they're being publically offended instead of making the perpetrator responsible for socially unacceptable behavior, then you have problems with the way the real world works Viper. You're trying to impose absolutes where they're aren't any; you cannot control another's response to something. But that person can control what comes out of their mouth, plain and simple.

I'm through with this thread - I just make a point not to use these offensive words with people I think may take offense to them, period, so I'm all set. I'm not going to continue to participate in a thread where I am being attacked for trying to suggest an alternative way to fix a pretty shitty situation, just because the person I am suggesting it to is digging their heels in and insisting that there's only one way to kill racism and that they have no responsibility in how to resolve the matter.

Who has attacked you Viper? No one has attacked you; you gave an opinion and I disagreed with you and told you why. Since when does that become an attack? You've been on this forum long enough to know once you hit the submit key, all is fair game. I thought we were just two people with two polar opposite POVs. I didn't know it was a requirement that everyone has to be in agreement with everything said. If that were the case, I wouldn't have wasted my time posting at all.

You have taken this way too personally and way out of context IMO.

This is an argument that noone will ever win because ignorant people who use that kind of language to hurt other will ALWAYS exist, and the people who feel they need to be offended by such remarks will NEVER consider doing anything other than getting angry. Both parties are wrong and neither party will ever go away.

I guess at the end of the day, we'll just disagree. People are responsible for their words and actions. People know these words are not appropriate so why stir the pot in the first place? Why should I have to walk away when the idiot could've just kept his/her mouth shut? Free speech ain't free; it comes with a price either good or bad.

 

[Mister Scruff]

Next word that will meet the criteria of Political Correctness will be... Socialist.

Some people already find that word offensive. Those people are stupid.

 

[Deleted member 66627]

In Germany, insulting is illegal. Showing the middle finger can cost you up to 5000 Euro.

I never knew that. And if you think about it, it's really ironic.

 

[Mister Scruff]

I never knew that. And if you think about it, it's really ironic.

Nastiness is illegal everywhere. In the UK swearing in public can land you with a criminal record, if some policeman decides he's going to enforce that law that nobody cares about and make you pay in order to get his power-fix. There are probably analogous laws in the US too.

So yeah, I dunno how "ironic" it is.

 

[Deleted member 66627]

So yeah, I dunno how "ironic" it is.

....

1.) Quote Rhiannon: "In Germany, insulting is illegal. Showing the middle finger can cost you up to 5000 Euro."

2.) Insert reason for Irony:

3.) ????

4.) PROFIT!!

 

[meangry]

Okay Meangry. This is the part of the conversation where we respectfully agree to disagree. You have made your point and there's no way I can change your way of thinking. Although I think that's too bad,
you're a grown man and can think whatever way you want. I just hope you never run into someone who doesn't think as you do.........it could get really ugly.

What I find amazingly interesting is that I'm getting pushback from men I normally respect their opinions as interesting and refreshing. Now I'm looking at three white males who are having issues with reality. It doesn't meet your terms yet you continue to fight, buck, and kick like wild mules over what is normally societaly acceptable behavior. I don't get it, but all of you are right; you're entiled to your own opinion even if it kicks against the brick of society.

What you don't seem to understand is the very essence of what me and MrMacphisto are saying; language is living, and the signifiers of the language each have changed, evolved, and become diluted. Language is not succinct. What is being enforced is one person's concept of a word, which carries their own filled-to-the-brim connotations. No signifier is universal; ergo, words cannot be universal.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

The word ************ is something different altogether in my opinion. And I'm not touching that subject because of what you just described. (and because I'm white and European and what you just described never appeared in my historybooks, which is a sad thing)

However, pushing people's boundaries on sensitive subjects is important. A role well played by stand up comedians, by ridiculing sensitive subjects things become normal and therefor open for discussion. People start to think for themselves, form an opinion they actually thought about themselves and society as a whole improves.

Thing is I am no comedian. But I'm also not for just senslessly pushing people's buttons to make them angry. It's pushing their buttons and explaining them why they have every reason not to get angry; shrugging things off is pretty much the only way to keep your head cool in today's society and without a cool head you ain't getting nowhere.

Just wanted to say, i think this is one of the best posts i've seen on here on a subject. Very nice.


As for the topic in question, i think most people know what words might be considered harmful, and should tread lightly if they choose to use those words. What one person might see as playful ribbing, another might see as it as an insult.