Is the word Fagot not offensive anymore?

[MrMacphisto]

This.

When it becomes more about being 'right' than about respect and compassion for your fellow man, and frankly simple good manners, there's no point in continuing the conversation.

Meanwhile, for a bit of relevant levity 🙂 :

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I was actually thinking of this clip during part of this discussion.

In a way, it reflects reality -- like how apologizing usually only results in condescension in return.

That's part of why I prefer not to apologize.

 

[MrMacphisto]

What she said.

Well then, you've got an entire music industry to spread the word too.

Perhaps we could put arches over the entrances to some of the other countries too, and have the words "Arbeit Macht Frei" in big iron letters across the arches. Then all would be well.

Would you have told that to Malcolm X? It's not just Nazies who support cultural separatism. Many Muslims do as well.

I'd like to believe this was true, but I seriously doubt you, or most people with sense for that matter, are able to completely dispense with their social graces in all situations. Say Mike Tyson brings his black boxing friends into the pub for a drink, will you continue to say the word "************" freely and openly, and count on the fact that it's just a word and the seemingly arbitrary way in which societal norms are decided mean they shouldn't be offended to save you from a beating?

If they did beat me, I'd get to sue the shit out of them. So, depending on whether or not I'd like to get a huge financial settlement, I suppose that is an option.

If I'm ever hard up for money, I'll consider it, I suppose.

No, you're not, because a) you're not fucking stupid, and b) you're not a hateful person and have no reason to make people feel disrespected or demeaned because of the colour of their skin. At least that's what I hope is the case.

I could be wrong here, but you seem to appreciate bluntness in communication just like I do.

Again, I don't go out of my way to disrespect people, but if you give me a reason to, like challenging me or trying to push forth a double standard, I will.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Nastiness is illegal everywhere. In the UK swearing in public can land you with a criminal record, if some policeman decides he's going to enforce that law that nobody cares about and make you pay in order to get his power-fix. There are probably analogous laws in the US too.

So yeah, I dunno how "ironic" it is.

You're right. It's not ironic, it's expected. Europe has always had fascist overtones with regard to political correctness.

 

[rhiannon]

You're saying it's fascist to make insulting people illegal!? Wow, I've never heard that before!

Personally, I think that NOT making it illegal would not go along well with our constitution as the first article says "The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all public authority."

If you insult somebody, you are not respecting the person's dignity. So I think it's perfectly alright that insulting someone is not allowed here.

Talking about political correctness....Europe isn't as anal as the US about it BY FAR! We don't call black and white people "African American" and "Caucasian"!

 

[meangry]

You're saying it's fascist to make insulting people illegal!? Wow, I've never heard that before!

Personally, I think that NOT making it illegal would not go along well with our constitution as the first article says "The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all public authority."

If you insult somebody, you are not respecting the person's dignity. So I think it's perfectly alright that insulting someone is not allowed here.

Talking about political correctness....Europe isn't as anal as the US about it BY FAR! We don't call black and white people "African American" and "Caucasian"!

Because censorship of speech is an awesome, non-dictatorial approach which always has positive ramifications and never is abused or expanded upon by government.

 

[MrMacphisto]

You're saying it's fascist to make insulting people illegal!? Wow, I've never heard that before!

Personally, I think that NOT making it illegal would not go along well with our constitution as the first article says "The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all public authority."

If you insult somebody, you are not respecting the person's dignity. So I think it's perfectly alright that insulting someone is not allowed here."

If you ban my ability to speak my mind, you're violating my dignity.

Talking about political correctness....Europe isn't as anal as the US about it BY FAR! We don't call black and white people "African American" and "Caucasian"!

The difference is that I don't get fined for not using those terms.

If I insult someone in America, I deal with the repercussions in a personal sense. I could lose my job if I do it at work, and I could end up in a fight if I do it in public.

Still, that's far better than having the government fine me over it.

 

[c7_assassin]

If you insult somebody, you are not respecting the person's dignity. So I think it's perfectly alright that insulting someone is not allowed here.

The definition of "insult" is a problem, though...who defines it? You? Your accuser? A court? Der Fuehrer?

Do you really not have a problem with a law that spells out exactly how far you can go when you're talking to another person before you start breaking the law?

The First Amendment in the US constitution is that the gov't shall not infringe upon personal freedom of expression. That means that it isn't the gov't's place to tell anyone what is or isn't improper speech. And that's a beautiful thing. It implies that we don't have an absolute handle on morality yet, and we don't want to make any mistakes in the meantime. That's liberalism.

 

[rhiannon]

If you ban my ability to speak my mind, you're violating my dignity.

By calling someone else names, you are violating his! Plus, it's a difference on how you say it! If you put it like "I think you are acting like a total asshole!", that is your opinion! If you say "You are an asshole!", then it is insult!

The difference is that I don't get fined for not using those terms.

You could still have a discrimination charge on you!

The definition of "insult" is a problem, though...who defines it? You? Your accuser? A court? Der Fuehrer?

If someone feels insulted, the person can go to the police and report it. Then it goes like every other process would! There are certain rules about it in the law books, just like how it's decided whether a killing is murder or manslaughter!

 

[MrMacphisto]

By calling someone else names, you are violating his! Plus, it's a difference on how you say it! If you put it like "I think you are acting like a total asshole!", that is your opinion! If you say "You are an asshole!", then it is insult!

To me, that's just a difference in semantics.

Whatever the case, as far as dignity goes, I'd much rather have the dignity to speak my mind while risking the indignity of being insulted. Besides, being insulted can stem from more than just speech.

You could still have a discrimination charge on you!

Actually, no. There are only a few situations that apply to discrimination charges.

Hiring practices, housing practices, harassment, violent acts, and just about anything government related.

Harassment is the only one with an emphasis on speech, but you can't be charged with harassment for just using a slur. If you are continually verbally abusing someone even as they are trying to leave your presence, then... you can be charged with harassment, but it isn't specifically based on discrimination (although it often involves it).

If someone feels insulted, the person can go to the police and report it. Then it goes like every other process would! There are certain rules about it in the law books, just like how it's decided whether a killing is murder or manslaughter!

Again, harassment is the only part that applies, but the conditions are very specific. Basically, you have to prove that the person is essentially stalking the other person and won't leave them alone. Getting into an argument that involves insults isn't prosecutable.

 

[BlackestLily]

Der Fuehrer?

Wow.

Had to whip out the Hitler reference.

Wooooooow.


And furthermore, I thought this was about the word fag. Not the word ************.

 

[rhiannon]

To me, that's just a difference in semantics.

Actually, if you think about it, it's a difference in meaning! I've heard of a case where a guy sued because his ex had said he has a small dick and was an idiot. She got charged for the idiot, not for the small dick as the judge said she was just stating a fact here! 😀 If he was, in fact, an idiot, I guess there wouldn't have been a charge there either. 🙂 And if she had just said "I thin you are acting" she would have said something different than "you are" and wouldn't have been charged.

Question: if you insult a cop in the states, would that get you in trouble?

Another question: if you burn the US flag in the US, would that be illegal? Or was that changed? I think it once was illegal, wasn't it?

 

[McNoodle]

I don't like the term, I don't like when other people use the term and I don't personally use the term. I simply hate the way it sounds regardless of intent or history.

I believe offensive terms are carefully selected and used by people who are trying to show their bleeding edge intolerance and yet claim it's harmless if confronted or protected by free speech. Be interesting to see if that term is used playfully between parent and child seeing as it is harmless and context based.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Actually, if you think about it, it's a difference in meaning! I've heard of a case where a guy sued because his ex had said he has a small dick and was an idiot. She got charged for the idiot, not for the small dick as the judge said she was just stating a fact here! 😀 If he was, in fact, an idiot, I guess there wouldn't have been a charge there either. 🙂 And if she had just said "I thin you are acting" she would have said something different than "you are" and wouldn't have been charged.

Um... I just want to clarify this... In Germany, you can literally be fined for calling someone an idiot?

Question: if you insult a cop in the states, would that get you in trouble?

Cops have certain privileges that average citizens don't. It's a small consolation to the shit they deal with on a daily basis, so I don't mind it too much... although admittedly, some cops really abuse that specific privilege.

Another question: if you burn the US flag in the US, would that be illegal? Or was that changed? I think it once was illegal, wasn't it?

I'm not sure if it's ever been illegal. Many tried to ban it, but the closest thing to it being illegal is if you're burning it in a dangerous manner. Like, for example, you can be charged with reckless endangerment if you burn a flag near a gas station.

Other than that, it's perfectly legal -- as long as you own the flag or get permission from the owner.

 

[rhiannon]

Um... I just want to clarify this... In Germany, you can literally be fined for calling someone an idiot?

If someone wants to go through the hassle of actually reporting it - yes! Most of the time people just insult back.

Cops have certain privileges that average citizens don't.

When it comes to being insulted, do you think they should? I mean...people are just speaking their minds....

I'm really amazed how people think this is such a big deal!

 

[MrMacphisto]

If someone wants to go through the hassle of actually reporting it - yes! Most of the time people just insult back.

No offense, but that's insane.

When it comes to being insulted, do you think they should? I mean...people are just speaking their minds....

I'm really amazed how people think this is such a big deal!

I'm much more inclined to give authority certain privileges rather than random people off of the street. Just because you're a certain race or certain sexual orientation, I'm not going to treat you differently.

Besides, if I did treat people differently because of race or sexual orientation, isn't that actually racism and/or homophobia?

I will treat you differently if you're authority, because you have a higher level of responsibility to deal with. With higher responsibility, you have higher privileges.

 

[rhiannon]

No offense, but that's insane.

Not more or less insane than the right to bear arms. 🙂

I'm much more inclined to give authority certain privileges rather than random people off of the street. Just because you're a certain race or certain sexual orientation, I'm not going to treat you differently.

Exactly. You should treat everybody with respectm, and that includes that you don't insult them. You do realize that privilege does go to everybody, not just minorities, right?

With higher responsibility, you have higher privileges.

Not all the time! And how do you define the "grade of responsibility"? Wouldn't that mean that you also couldn't insult a surgeon who has a pretty big responsibility when he literally holds your heart in your hand?

 

[Mister Scruff]

Well then, you've got an entire music industry to spread the word too.

Hi there Mr. Carter, your livelihood helps to perpetuate negative stereotypes and allows the cancer eating the heart out of black communities to grow. Please stop doing what you do to make money so that the world can get better.

That's not going to work, is it?

Would you have told that to Malcolm X?

Yes, because he was a separatist bigot, at least at first. Of course after a while his stance softened a bit, to the old "whites can help us but they can't join us" bullshit. Fuck you then; if you don't want to be my friend because of the colour of my skin, what does that make you?... A racist! Correct! Have a cookie, and a big pat on the back for helping perpetuate the simmering hatred of your people by ignoramuses with European genes.

It's not just Nazies who support cultural separatism. Many Muslims do as well.

Yes, and they have so many brilliant ideas don't they? Here you go, here's a Kalashnikov, there's a woman who is less than 100% covered by her clothing and is out without a male relative; go nuts, you fucking smackhead lunatic. Unless of course you mean those nice Nation Of Islam chaps, who also have great ideas. Largely to do with segregation and returning to Africa. Seriously, the state Zimbabwe and Somalia are in, you're better off in Queens.

Myself, I'm pro-choice. Tolerance is hard, but it's the only real way people can live alongside one another. If you honestly believe that the best way for humanity to exist is to remain seperate and not mix with people who look different or have different ideologies, then you deserve to go away and live on an island with others of your kind.

If they did beat me, I'd get to sue the shit out of them.

Check... MATE! It was an analogy, tit-for-tat "Well if they did [x] I'd do [y]!" nonsense should be reserved for threads discussing fights between superheroes or dangerous animals.

So, depending on whether or not I'd like to get a huge financial settlement, I suppose that is an option.

If I'm ever hard up for money, I'll consider it, I suppose.

Well done.

I could be wrong here, but you seem to appreciate bluntness in communication just like I do.

Again, I don't go out of my way to disrespect people, but if you give me a reason to, like challenging me or trying to push forth a double standard, I will.

So you're more about flying in the face of established social and societal norms, then, rather than race-hate and bigotry. That's coo'. I can relate. Just be careful if you're a fan of tugging that particular thread, because sometimes it can bring a whole heap of shit crashing down about your ears. "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck", and all that.

 

[Mister Scruff]

You're saying it's fascist to make insulting people illegal!? Wow, I've never heard that before!

It's not fascist at all. It's indicative of autocracy though, much like the laws forbidding Holocaust denial and singing Deutschland Uber Alles. People have a right to their own stupidity, and attempting to legislate against it not only futile, but indeed leads to people clamouring to kick against it.

Personally, I think that NOT making it illegal would not go along well with our constitution as the first article says "The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all public authority."

If you insult somebody, you are not respecting the person's dignity. So I think it's perfectly alright that insulting someone is not allowed here.

And by restricting my right to say what I feel you're treating me as a human being? That respects my dignity, does it?

Talking about political correctness....Europe isn't as anal as the US about it BY FAR! We don't call black and white people "African American" and "Caucasian"!

Fucking "caucasian"... I hate that word. I don't find it offensive, just incredibly ignorant. It's like calling Arabs "Saharans" or some shit. People from the Caucasus are Slavic. Northern Europeans aren't Slavic. "White" is fine; I mean technically I change colours a lot so I'm not really "white" at all, but it's better than fucking Caucasian.

 

[Soda Bobinski]

And furthermore, I thought this was about the word fag. Not the word ************.

When she's right , she's right.

I'll do my part to stay on topic :

 

[MrMacphisto]

Not more or less insane than the right to bear arms. 🙂

Canada doesn't seem to have a problem with guns, and people have that right up there.

Exactly. You should treat everybody with respectm, and that includes that you don't insult them. You do realize that privilege does go to everybody, not just minorities, right?

There is no right to be not offended.

Not all the time! And how do you define the "grade of responsibility"? Wouldn't that mean that you also couldn't insult a surgeon who has a pretty big responsibility when he literally holds your heart in your hand?

No, that's more like I wouldn't insult someone who's trying to help me.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Hi there Mr. Carter, your livelihood helps to perpetuate negative stereotypes and allows the cancer eating the heart out of black communities to grow. Please stop doing what you do to make money so that the world can get better.

That's not going to work, is it?

Nope, and it's also why it doesn't really matter. They say it, and until they stop, claiming I can't say it is hypocritical.

Yes, because he was a separatist bigot, at least at first. Of course after a while his stance softened a bit, to the old "whites can help us but they can't join us" bullshit. Fuck you then; if you don't want to be my friend because of the colour of my skin, what does that make you?... A racist! Correct! Have a cookie, and a big pat on the back for helping perpetuate the simmering hatred of your people by ignoramuses with European genes.

Well, at least we feel the same way about X then.

Yes, and they have so many brilliant ideas don't they? Here you go, here's a Kalashnikov, there's a woman who is less than 100% covered by her clothing and is out without a male relative; go nuts, you fucking smackhead lunatic. Unless of course you mean those nice Nation Of Islam chaps, who also have great ideas. Largely to do with segregation and returning to Africa. Seriously, the state Zimbabwe and Somalia are in, you're better off in Queens.

Hey, I just wanted to hear you say it. In other threads, you were defending the actions of certain orthodox Muslims -- most notably, Palestinians.

Myself, I'm pro-choice. Tolerance is hard, but it's the only real way people can live alongside one another. If you honestly believe that the best way for humanity to exist is to remain seperate and not mix with people who look different or have different ideologies, then you deserve to go away and live on an island with others of your kind.

I was speaking of ideals. I know that, in reality, separatism isn't going to happen. Still, there is something to be said for the world's most peaceful nations to live in and how they tend to be culturally homogeneous (Norway, Ireland, Sweden, etc.).

So you're more about flying in the face of established social and societal norms, then, rather than race-hate and bigotry. That's coo'. I can relate. Just be careful if you're a fan of tugging that particular thread, because sometimes it can bring a whole heap of shit crashing down about your ears. "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck", and all that.

Fair enough.

 

[chickles_:)]

Hiya friends!

actually, and I'm sure someone has said this, I always knew the word ************ for a bundle of sticks for a fire, or a match.

But I guess i'd have to wonder why I might want to call anyone the term. If it was meant as anything uncomplimentary then of course it's offensive. And even if it is not consciously intended as uncomplimentary I'd have to wonder why I couldn't use a more specifically descriptive word for a person. In other words, the very fact that I'm having to consider whether the term is insulting suggests it is probably not a good idea to use it. And most certainly, unnecessary.

Maybe finding myself in that situation is just the push I need to expand my vocabulary a bit. 😛

Just my few random thoughts

Many blessings,
chickles

 

[rhiannon]

No, that's more like I wouldn't insult someone who's trying to help me.

Now here's my question: why would you insult anybody at all?

It's not fascist at all. It's indicative of autocracy though, much like the laws forbidding Holocaust denial and singing Deutschland Uber Alles. People have a right to their own stupidity, and attempting to legislate against it not only futile, but indeed leads to people clamouring to kick against it.

Personally I think it is pretty stupid to do that too, but guess what, laws like that are dictated upon us from other countries!

 

[Mister Scruff]

And furthermore, I thought this was about the word fag. Not the word ************.

Sometimes, discussions segway from a specific topic into a more general one. It's about offensive words in general, nobody's trying to hijack a thread about the word "************" to force the issue of the word "************" down your throat.

 

[Mister Scruff]

Nope, and it's also why it doesn't really matter. They say it, and until they stop, claiming I can't say it is hypocritical.

It would be if Mr Carter and his hippin'-and-a-hoppin' friends were telling you not to say it. My stance is that nobody should be saying it to anyone, about anyone, or in reference to anyone, unless there's an academic reason to, ergo no hypocrite me.

Hey, I just wanted to hear you say it. In other threads, you were defending the actions of certain orthodox Muslims -- most notably, Palestinians.

Equating the Palestinian cause with Islam is like equating the Irish Republican cause with Catholicism. Did anyone go and shout at the Pope when they set that bomb off in Warrington or fired an RPG-7 at the British secret service's headquarters?

Palestinian freedom may be a stated aim of some Muslim extremists, but that's not because they give a flying fuck about the Palestinians; it's because they hate Israel. The majority of the Palestinians might be Muslim, but that's not the real reason they hate Israel.

I was speaking of ideals. I know that, in reality, separatism isn't going to happen. Still, there is something to be said for the world's most peaceful nations to live in and how they tend to be culturally homogeneous (Norway, Ireland, Sweden, etc.).

I'd question how homogenuous the Irish population is, since I've... y'know, actually been there and seen black people, Chinese people, Indian/ Pakistani people walking around Dublin and Wicklow with their native accents and an Irish passport. As far as the Scandabroad countries I'm sure Henrik Larrson (Swedish), Jose Gonzalez (Swedish), Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Swedish), John Carew (Norwegian), Kristian Brix (Norwegian) and Ola Kamara (Norwegian) might have something to say about the homogeneity of their homelands.

The reason these nations are decent places to live isn't because they're culturally homogenuous. Despite what anti-immigration idiots and right-wingers would have you believe the UK is pretty culturally homogenuous, yet it's a fucking shit-hole. The reason Norway, Sweden, Ireland and other nations like them are reasonable places to live are because they're small nations with small economies that don't bother aspiring to be massive players in the global game, and instead tend to spend more time concentrating on running themselves properly. The Dutch are the same; Holland is an excellent place to live, yet they're not particularly culturally homogenuous either. Lots of Turks there, I know that much. Spain too, seems like a nice place, yet it's full of British emigrants and thus isn't culturally homogenuous (and if you think Spain and Britain are culturally "the same" because we're both European nations you need your head syringing).


I'd also question the validity of trying to turn what is, after all, an immigrant nation (the USA) into a culturally homogenuous land. Are you offering to board a ship and return to Europe so that the Algonquian and Sioux can have their lands back? If so will you bring the Mexicans with you, because they're a fucking riot 😀