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Is tickling cheating?

Now, does that mean they just met and he/she is giving full disclosure of their "interests"? No. They got involved in a relationship and did not divulge that particular part of them for whatever reason. Does that mean that person is dishonest? No. It is a comfort level. So at what point does it become "dishonest"?

It becomes dishonest when you're withholding that information so you can "get away with" tickling other people, because your partner doesn't know you have a fetish. Not that they know and don't like it, not that they know and don't care, not even that they know and just aren't as into it. They don't know, because they haven't been told. And the reason that they haven't been is so that one person feels can screw around with impunity, with a self-issued free pass.

Revealing your deepest sexual desires to a partner is rarely easy, and it's a risk, to be sure. We all know what a bitter ex can do with your secrets, right? Everyone has their own comfort level. But at some point, it's not fair to your partner. Wouldn't you want to know what really turns them on? And would it be okay to find out they'd had a secret turn-on for years, that they were indulging in with other people, and never told you? Is it fair to never give your partner the chance to make you happy, because you're covering your own ass, and you want to keep that outside option open, and play the "poor me, my partner really isn't into tickling" card? (That wasn't directed at you, btw. That was in general.)

I don't think anyone here is saying "You have to immediately tell your partner everything that turns you on or it's dishonest!" That's an argument designed to make you pay attention to the extreme level of the non-existent statement, and not the issue at hand.

primetime said:
However, I do believe that if I were in a relationship and I purposefully went out to seek a tickle session, it is cheating in a way, because I am looking for sexual gratification outside the relationship and I actually DID the act.

I think that's what most of us are saying.
 
For me it's simple , if you're gut instincts isn't immediately saying what you're thinking of doing isn't...IT IS! If you aren't willingly telling your partner what your planning to do with whoever...IT IS!
 
For example, the jacking off to Sears catalogs is not a good example. That's the same as saying whenever you masturbate without your significant other watching is "dishonest and cheating".... Looking at the Sears catalog is all mental..

Actually, it's a very good point. And yes, it is all mental and that is why it is a good point. To the bra fetishist, the Sears catalog can be as good as legit porn. To the bra fetishist it IS porn. It arouses them. They are using something that is a non pornographic item for 99% of the population as a means to sexually stimulate themselves. If you tell your partner that you don't jerk off to porn...I state again...that is only technically true. You are using a non standard medium to turn you on. It's splitting hairs. It does the same thing as porn and as such, telling your partner you don't jerk off to porn is using that technicality as a loophole to avoid being honest. This is where I have issues with the honesty argument being made. And as far as masturbating not being cheating...look back at my original post. I mentioned a real world situation where I knew a guy whose girlfriend had a shit fit because she found out that he had masturbated while she was away on a trip. She accused him of cheating. Her very word. So, while I agree that it's an extreme case and most people don't see masturbation as cheating, you would be surprised to know that there are a decent number that do. Anytime you are in a relationship, you can not assume that you and your partner are going to see the world the same way in all matters. This includes what a person considers dishonest and cheating. Especially if when your view of dishonesty is not in line with the general consensus. Doesn't mean you can't have a differing view, it just means that you have to understand that you may butt heads with the average person's view. Particularly if it's your partner.
 
It becomes dishonest when you're withholding that information so you can "get away with" tickling other people, because your partner doesn't know you have a fetish. Not that they know and don't like it, not that they know and don't care, not even that they know and just aren't as into it. They don't know, because they haven't been told. And the reason that they haven't been is so that one person feels can screw around with impunity, with a self-issued free pass.

Revealing your deepest sexual desires to a partner is rarely easy, and it's a risk, to be sure. We all know what a bitter ex can do with your secrets, right? Everyone has their own comfort level. But at some point, it's not fair to your partner. Wouldn't you want to know what really turns them on? And would it be okay to find out they'd had a secret turn-on for years, that they were indulging in with other people, and never told you? Is it fair to never give your partner the chance to make you happy, because you're covering your own ass, and you want to keep that outside option open, and play the "poor me, my partner really isn't into tickling" card? (That wasn't directed at you, btw. That was in general.)

I don't think anyone here is saying "You have to immediately tell your partner everything that turns you on or it's dishonest!" That's an argument designed to make you pay attention to the extreme level of the non-existent statement, and not the issue at hand.



I think that's what most of us are saying.

Yes, that is what people are saying. For some reason, some people believe that you must give full disclosure and get permissions, etc, to indulge in their tickling fun. You know that is a true statement. The problem is, not everything fits within a nice perfect box. The example I gave with my grand niece, If I tickle her to have some fun and make her laugh, am I cheating with my significant other, even though my tickle interaction with the family member is COMPLETELY non-sexual? That is why some people may not tell their significant other about the tickle fetish because they may misinterpret ALL of your tickling behaviors.

Being dishonest is lying. Are you lying to another person if you do not divulge everything? I think that is why DAJT said it will be dishonest if you are being confronted by it, then LYING about what you did. That is dishonesty. Is it kind of shady that you purposefully hid the information so you can go around tickling people and getting your "rocks off"? Sure. But are you necessarily "lying"?
 
Actually, it's a very good point. And yes, it is all mental and that is why it is a good point. To the bra fetishist, the Sears catalog can be as good as legit porn. To the bra fetishist it IS porn. It arouses them. They are using something that is a non pornographic item for 99% of the population as a means to sexually stimulate themselves. If you tell your partner that you don't jerk off to porn...I state again...that is only technically true. You are using a non standard medium to turn you on. It's splitting hairs. It does the same thing as porn and as such, telling your partner you don't jerk off to porn is using that technicality as a loophole to avoid being honest. This is where I have issues with the honesty argument being made. And as far as masturbating not being cheating...look back at my original post. I mentioned a real world situation where I knew a guy whose girlfriend had a shit fit because she found out that he had masturbated while she was away on a trip. She accused him of cheating. Her very word. So, while I agree that it's an extreme case and most people don't see masturbation as cheating, you would be surprised to know that there are a decent number that do. Anytime you are in a relationship, you can not assume that you and your partner are going to see the world the same way in all matters. This includes what a person considers dishonest and cheating. Especially if when your view of dishonesty is not in line with the general consensus. Doesn't mean you can't have a differing view, it just means that you have to understand that you may butt heads with the average person's view. Particularly if it's your partner.

No, it is not a good point. Because in that situation, that means that you must divulge EVERY THING THAT AROUSES YOU. Face it, people masturbate. Males and females alike. The guy in the example doesn't even have to look at the magazine in order to be aroused because he can use his own mental images. Whether you look at something physical or using mental images, the result is the same. In the case of the girl that felt the guy was cheating because he masturbated, well, that girl is extreme. That is not the norm.

Let's think about that scenario for a second. In HER eyes, what he did was wrong. In HIS eyes, he was ok with him doing that (obviously). Does that make the girl right? Not necessarily. There is no ABSOLUTE answer to this question of is tickling cheating. Like you just said, it is in the eye of the beholder. But if you read the responses in this thread, there is this ABSOLUTE that it is dishonest, it is deceitful, and wrong. What if the girl has a secret fetish of hers (let's use spankings as an easy example), she may not be comfortable telling her boyfriend (who has a tickling fetish that he hasn't divulged) that she likes being spanked. But, she fantasizes about it while he fantasizes about tickling and neither tells the other. Are they both being deceitful and dishonest?

There is no perfect answer because not everyone will think the same way. That doesn't make them right or wrong. So why is anyone surprised that there are different views on what is being dishonest and deceitful?
 
Is it kind of shady that you purposefully hid the information so you can go around tickling people and getting your "rocks off"? Sure. But are you necessarily "lying"?

See, this is the problem. You'll agree that it's shady, but not that it's lying. If it's shady or lying...it's wrong. But some folks have no problem rationalizing their position until they are completely comfortable with doing things that most people would call bullshit on. If a person wants to live their life with that kind of moral compass, fine. They just have own the fact that they are going to be called on it. I never said you can't live your life as you see fit. I simply stated that a great many people are going to have issue with your views on honesty. This can include your partner, who you owe far greater openness than any stranger. Do you have to disclose everything? No. But a lot of the things being discussed in this thread are things most partners would want disclosed. Specifically, anything that you derive sexual arousal or gratification from. And yes, you do run the risk of alienating or losing a partner by being open. But that is part of testing a relationship to truly see if you
are good together. Keeping secrets and lying is really not a relationship forged on trust and acceptance.
 
No, it is not a good point. Because in that situation, that means that you must divulge EVERY THING THAT AROUSES YOU. Face it, people masturbate. Males and females alike. The guy in the example doesn't even have to look at the magazine in order to be aroused because he can use his own mental images. Whether you look at something physical or using mental images, the result is the same. In the case of the girl that felt the guy was cheating because he masturbated, well, that girl is extreme. That is not the norm.

Let's think about that scenario for a second. In HER eyes, what he did was wrong. In HIS eyes, he was ok with him doing that (obviously). Does that make the girl right? Not necessarily. There is no ABSOLUTE answer to this question of is tickling cheating. Like you just said, it is in the eye of the beholder. But if you read the responses in this thread, there is this ABSOLUTE that it is dishonest, it is deceitful, and wrong. What if the girl has a secret fetish of hers (let's use spankings as an easy example), she may not be comfortable telling her boyfriend (who has a tickling fetish that he hasn't divulged) that she likes being spanked. But, she fantasizes about it while he fantasizes about tickling and neither tells the other. Are they both being deceitful and dishonest?

There is no perfect answer because not everyone will think the same way. That doesn't make them right or wrong. So why is anyone surprised that there are different views on what is being dishonest and deceitful?

You're missing the point. I'm not saying that you need to disclose everything. Only things that your partner specifically asks you (and many woman ask about a guys porn stash and many guys lie) or if you are seeking sexual gratification from someone outside your relationship without the consent of your partner. The Sears catalog analogy is a good example of the first thing I pointed out. If a partner asks you if you jerk off to porn and you rationalize that you can say no because a Sears catalog is not considered pornography, you are being deceitful because YOU know that it gives you the same sexual arousal as regular porn. I guarantee you that a lot of partners would be upset if they found out later that you were jerking off to the bra section of a Sears catalog when you told them that you don't jerk off to porn. You...know...better. You are simply splitting hairs so you don't have to be honest and deal with what could be a difficult situation. It comes back to this "have your cake and eat it nonsense." It's being deceitful and dishonest. Go ahead, try it with your significant other and see if they don't call bullshit.
 
You're missing the point. I'm not saying that you need to disclose everything. Only things that your partner specifically asks you (and many woman ask about a guys porn stash and many guys lie) or if you are seeking sexual gratification from someone outside your relationship without the consent of your partner. The Sears catalog analogy is a good example of the first thing I pointed out. If a partner asks you if you jerk off to porn and you rationalize that you can say no because a Sears catalog is not considered pornography, you are being deceitful because YOU know that it gives you the same sexual arousal as regular porn. I guarantee you that a lot of partners would be upset if they found out later that you were jerking off to the bra section of a Sears catalog when you told them that you don't jerk off to porn. You...know...better. You are simply splitting hairs so you don't have to be honest and deal with what could be a difficult situation. It comes back to this "have your cake and eat it nonsense." It's being deceitful and dishonest. Go ahead, try it with your significant other and see if they don't call bullshit.

The problem with your example is that it is not an absolute situation. A Sears catalog is NOT pornography. The makers of the catalog did not (maybe they did) intend for their catalog to be viewed SEXUALLY. They are advertising a product. Here is the definition of pornography:

Pornography (often abbreviated as "porn" or "porno" in informal usage) is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal. If the catalog was sex toys, then you can say pornography. Just because the guy gets off on the visuals doesn't make the catalog porn. So he is correct in saying "I don't jack off to porn". Is it semantics? Of course it is, which is why your example is not a good one.

The scenario you give, female asks male, "do you jack off to porn?" and the guy says "No, I don't" is not inclusive of everything being discussed here. You are overlooking an aspect which is, what if the female NEVER asks that question "do you jack off to porn?"? That question NEVER comes up in the relationship. Now, is the guy being dishonest and deceitful when he jacks off to Sears catalogs (using your example)?
 
All this is fine, you show awareness of moralities that are outside your own, and that people can come to them honestly. You also own your own point of view and show that you clearly understand that others don’t choose it, by what you feel is an erroneous process, but are still willing to accept that they can make that choice.

So far we are on the same page.



A valid viewpoint to hold if one chooses.



Here however your supporting reasoning for you choice has problems.

Using the bastardized definition of fetish as you do above, there is no reason that something sexual can’t be fetishized. Sexual positions are a very good example of this. Some folks become fixated on always having one position present for their encounters. Seeking it out every time as an arousal cue. Others become fixated on watching others engaged in sex acts for their own arousal, and so forth. A sexual activity can become a fetish as easily as a non sexual one. Breasts are sexualized in our culture, but over time other body parts (feet in China, Ears in several pre columbian cultures) have been too. Boobs are just an arbitrary one for our current culture (western derived culture) and you can see a separation from them as a fixation in other ones.
Further, by definition, once an activity becomes fetishized, it BECOMES sexual to the holder of the fetish. It’s part of their sexual psychology. And as part, is sexual to them.

To step it back a level.

Motivation—>Action—->Result.

For sexuality this translates to Cues—->Arosual—>Sexual engagement

It’s a process. And as a process it’s a whole. The Cues become sexual to the individual by inclusion in the process.

Now one does not need to accept this. You don’t. And that is cool. But when we step it back to the cultures viewpoint you tend to get this view. The cues are seen as sexual by the person outside the structure when they are observing a person operating in the structure.

Simply put, if Jumping on rubber duckies makes you hard, your partner situationally understands that rubber ducky jumping is a sexual activity in your frame. And if they they hold to a strict moral position on the fact that as your partner you should only be jumping on rubber ducks with THEM, then you are running into an outside morality that is actively judging you behavior. And you’ll need to answer to it in so far as your relationship goes.

Saying “But honey, I don’t think of jumping on rubber ducks as sexual. It’s just something that turns me on” won’t cut it. You are being judged by the a standard outside your world view. So no soap there.

So the default under your position is to not tell them that Jumping on Rubber ducks turns you on at all. After all if they don’t know that, then they cannot object, because as far as they know. Jumping on Rubber Ducks is just a normal thing that everyone does on occasion. Nothing sexual there.

And this is where people call you deceitful.

You are lying by omission for your own benefit. You know that the world thinks that if you get hard when jumping upon rubber ducks, that it’s sexual. and want to bypass that judgment so you can keep getting thrills by casual duck jumping, without facing a relationship cost from your partner.

You have withheld information about yourself that your partner would use to honestly understand your behaviors. And for your own benefit. It’s that action, the omission for benefit which indicates that you are aware that your actions would normally bear a cost. One that you feel is not justified, yet still annoyingly exists. And in seeking to avoid that annoying cost, you allow your partner to continue in ignorance for your own benefit.

By most standards that is not a moral act. And it’s why people jump up to slap your words and viewpoints down when you make them. You are choosing to champion a minority moral view point for this point and moment in our culture.



This translates to: I believe the world works way ‘X’. Because I do, I can justify lying or deception in my behavior because my view is right and others are wrong. Even if I’m in an intimate relationship WITH someone I know who holds the ‘wrong’ opinion.

And as the majority of viewers are on your partners page morally and culturally, you get flack for that.

No one says you cannot do this. Or champion it, but it’s going to see push back wherever it shows up. And from the opposition viewpoint it reads as massively selfish and self serving, with the entire cost being offloaded to the unaware partner.

Own being selfish if you choose it. That we can all respect.

Myriads

As always, well said Myriads!
 
The scenario you give, female asks male, "do you jack off to porn?" and the guy says "No, I don't" is not inclusive of everything being discussed here. You are overlooking an aspect which is, what if the female NEVER asks that question "do you jack off to porn?"? That question NEVER comes up in the relationship. Now, is the guy being dishonest and deceitful when he jacks off to Sears catalogs (using your example)?

Again, your argument doesn't hold water. Just because it's not conventional pornography doesn't mean it can not be used in the same way. If you use it the same way as porn, then it's no different. Now, if the woman doesn't ask if you look at porn, then it's not dishonesty. She either doesn't care, doesn't want to know, or it doesn't occur to her to ask. Until she asks, it's not dishonesty and you don't have to divulge it. But once she asks, how you answer will determine your level of honesty. And, I say again, if she asks if you jack off to porn and you tell her that you don't jack off to porn because you consider a Sears catalog is not official pornography you are simply using a technicality to avoid admitting something that most people would call you on. This is the moral ambiguity that you can enter with situations like this and as a previous poster stated, it is inherently a selfish act. You are certainly free to act this way, but you can't be shocked when your partner calls bullshit.
 
This is not a one size fits all situation. What one couple might consider cheating, another might find totally acceptable.

Every couple has their own dynamic, and typically, a couple has boundaries they are expected to operate within. For example, I do not care if my husband goes to a strip club and decides to get a lap dance. I would not, however, be pleased if he chose to do something crazy, like sleep with another woman. Just like he does not mind that I come here, and regularly correspond with other TMF members, but would be rightfully upset if he came home to find me being tickled by another person. Other couples might be a bit more lax with their expectations, or some might be more strict. It just depends.

So how did my husband and I come up with our own boundaries and "rules" as some might say? Well, let's just say when you have been with a person for 20 plus years you gain an understanding of a person and their needs. How we arrived at our conclusions is a long and complex situation, so I will not bore the forum with the details.

My point: The only way to define what is or is not appropriate in your relationship is to understand what your partner needs, what you need, and how those needs can be met in a way that is satisfying to both of you. But in my opinion, as long as both of you are comfortable with whatever you do, you should be okay.
 
So the default under your position is to not tell them that Jumping on Rubber ducks turns you on at all. After all if they don’t know that, then they cannot object, because as far as they know. Jumping on Rubber Ducks is just a normal thing that everyone does on occasion. Nothing sexual there.
Correct. Period. Very well put. Unfortunately, this is the last point in your response that contains reasonable discussion. I don't agree with all of it, particularly the part in which you attempt to reverse-engineer tickling as part of the sexual process. Not at all accurate but very amusing and well articulated. Unfortunately, beyond this point, we derail sharply from meaningful discussion and venture into an area that shares no borders with reason, thoughtful discussion, or legitimacy.

And this is where people call you deceitful.

You are lying by omission for your own benefit.
"Lying." Pretty strong language, expecially to describe something that was never said or even communicated in any way. But it's good you brought it out into the light, as it highlights the foundation of the flawed thinking that has caught on here in the TMF. That being that there's a mandate to tell your significant other your fetish, or be labeled as a dishonest liar.

Consider this for a moment. We're actually discussing a mandate of disclosure so strong that failure to comply earns one the label of a dishonest liar. What a fine line you've drawn between an honest man of integrity and a dishonest, selfish liar.

This flawed thinking is a carcinoma growing out of a legitimate moral imperative, "always tell the truth." It's a good axiom, and one for which I go to considerable effort to strive, despite your uncharacteristic character assassination.

But does "always tell the truth" mean to "tell everything you know to be true?" If you know a truth and don't tell it, aren't you guilty of not telling the truth? A legitimate question, but one that's easily answered. If that were true, we'd spend our whole lives telling and never listening. Pretty obvious, really. So if always telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know to everybody you know, then it must mean something else other than full disclosure.

Clearly the phrase "always tell the truth" (aka "always be honest") is better elaborated to mean, "Always make your words truthful." In other words, don't go blabbing everything you know, but in your discussions and your comminications, be honest in the things you communicate. And communication goes beyond the verbal. One can communicate with a wink and/or a nod, that can indicate communication beyond (and often in contradiction to) the words being said.

We've established that full disclosure of everything can't possibly be the deciding criteria for honesty. Ergo, it must be possible to keep some things to yourself. After all, who tells anybody, even a significant other, everything about yourself? So the question becomes, what differentiates what must be told from what one can keep to oneself?

So far, of the many good people waving the TICKLING IS CHEATING flag, I've only seen one who has made any attempt to define the point where honest stoicism transforms into dishonest lack of disclosure...

It becomes dishonest when you're withholding that information so you can "get away with" tickling other people, because your partner doesn't know you have a fetish.

This one statement strikes at the core of the flawed thinking that permeates this thread and others like it. According to this brand of logic, you can refrain from disclosing your fetish and have your honesty intact. You haven't "lied" to anybody about it. But the minute you consider indulging said fetish with another, it's Abra-cadabra, your silence has now been magically transformed into a "lie." The same silence that was okay before, has now suddenly become not okay.

This is where the whole "tickling is cheating" argument breaks down the way any house of cards eventually does. And the sad thing is that I suspect it's all built on needless guilt. The idea that somebody can derive erotic stimulation from a non-sexual activity like tickling makes some feel guilty. "I get off on tickling. I'm not like other people. I'm abnormal. I'm guilty." So in order to appease their consciences, they place tickling in the category of "sexual activity." By applying the rules of sex to tickling, keeping it under the same constraints as sex, they now feel more like "normal" people.

Then along comes somebody who dares to think differently. Somebody who has decided not to feel guilty about his fetish, and uses its inherent obscurity to experience the fetish in the real world where others dare not.

The reaction from the fetish mainstream is severe.

"We can't have that! We must find some way to demonize this behavior. Wait, I've got it! We'll establish a mandate that anybody with a fetish must disclose that fetish to his significant other, thereby placing it into the category of sexual activity with all of the pitfalls that come with it."

"Great idea," somebody will say. "But what if somebody refuses that mandate? After all, it's surely going to restrict opportunity. How will you enforce it?"

"Easy. Anybody refusing the mandate will be labeled as 'dishonest.' If they persist, we'll step up our attacks and call them 'liars.'"

"Whoa, hold up, now. How can you call somebody a liar when he's not told any lies?"

"By simply appropriating an obscure legal term, 'lying by omission,' and leveraging it to support our mandate."

"Umm...yeah, I don't know about that. Aren't you at all embarrassed to use a phrase like 'lying by omission?' Isn't that an oxymoron?"

"Of course not. It's a legitimate legal term."

"Yeah, but it refers to crimes and issues of legal consequence, like withholding evidence. Not issues of romantic relationships."

"Doesn't matter. It's a phrase people have heard, even if they don't know what it means. They'll accept our definition of it. Trust me."​

The phrase "lying by omission" to describe the decision to keep your fetish information to yourself is probably the most brazen and ridiculously transparent attempts to rationalize the full disclosure mandate. It's like saying if you don't get your sweetheart a birthday present, that would be "stealing by omission."

Remember, your fetish is your business and nobody has the right to know about it. You may choose to share or not. Neither choice is dishonest or unfaithful. You absolutely CAN get tickling action outside of the relationship with your honesty and fidelity intact, as long as a) you've made no agreement to the contrary, b) your extra-marital tickling encounters don't become sexual or romantic.
 
"Lying." Pretty strong language, expecially to describe something that was never said or even communicated in any way. But it's good you brought it out into the light, as it highlights the foundation of the flawed thinking that has caught on here in the TMF. That being that there's a mandate to tell your significant other your fetish, or be labeled as a dishonest liar.

I've never held the opinion that there is any mandate to reveal anything to your significant other. That is a choice that I leave to you, and anyone else out there to make for their own interactions.

What I have always tried to do was highlight the morality involved in making that choice. And how that moral choice might be viewed by others in ones life (Often specifically a partner that one is in some form of relationship union with)

What you choose to do is your business. And I'll never question or dispute your right to make such choices.

So let's be clear, what I believe is not what I think anyone should or should not do. It's what I feel I should do. It's also a reflection of how I view others actions within my own moral structures. Nothing beyond that. I don't feel the entire world needs to share my outlook.

Your point boils down to: You can't cheat on someone if they don't know that what you are doing arouses you because it's a non standard behavior.

Fine.

But that concept of 'fidelity' is built on the foundation of informational lack on your partners part.

It's logically consistent with this statement: "It's not cheating if they didn't know I did it." which is built on the exact same concept of informational lack.

Once you start to predicate moral choices that impact two people upon one persons lack of information you are defining a morality that is fine with anything that you can conceal.

That is a perfectly valid view to hold. But the majority of outside viewers will consider it an unmoral philosophy. And if you choose to hold it, you'll need to own the fact that others will make judgements on you based on it.

"Lies of omission" that term you took issue with is simply a short hand phrase that covers that concept.

Let's say an explosive has been left in a brightly wrapped package. One has witnessed it being placed there. The package is left to sit out.

If a passing person asks you about the box and you say "I think it's fine to open" and they do and it explodes, then your lie has lead to direct harm.

If a passing person asks about the box and you ignore them, say nothing, and they open the box and it explodes then your action of omission has played a direct role in them coming to harm.

The results are the same in both cases, but the path to them leads through two different moral situations of which you had control. One in which you lied, the other in which you simply did not act (withheld information) They are both morally equivalent in result.

This is the concept behind the 'Lying by Omission' phrase. That it is a active choice that leads to a similar result as an active lie would have.


Remember, your fetish is your business and nobody has the right to know about it. You may choose to share or not. Neither choice is dishonest or unfaithful. You absolutely CAN get tickling action outside of the relationship with your honesty and fidelity intact, as long as a) you've made no agreement to the contrary, b) your extra-marital tickling encounters don't become sexual or romantic.

The problem I think, that people have with your point, is that you are holding that it's valid under your own moral structure regardless of what exactly your partner defines as 'sexual or romantic'. It IGNORES your partners views by holding that if YOU don't see your actions as 'sexual or romantic' then they are not.

That is YOUR rationalization that lets you do what you want and still feel you are honest and have fidelity.

It makes everyone in your world subject to your views in a direct and absolute way. It's not cheating because to you it's not cheating, and what they think or believe matters not a bit.

And just to be clear, that is a perfectly valid view point to have. It's not one I'd choose. It's not one that I'd want a partner I was in a relationship with to have. It's one that I feel treats your partners in ways I see as quite unfortunate. It's your choice to have. And no one should tell you have to do otherwise. I'm not.

Myriads
 
""Lying." Pretty strong language, especially to describe something that was never said or even communicated in any way."

Perhaps you have never heard the phrase...a lie of omission is still a lie.
 
I think I've been unfair on this.

All I know is, being honest with my partners has not always been the easiest choice, and yet, it's had a positive result the overwhelming majority of the time. Hell, even when it hasn't been positive, and my ex decided to blab about my fetish to her girlfriends, I got a few "So, why didn't you ever tickle me?" questions from some of those girlfriends. Worked out all right in the long run. Tickling is just not that weird to most people. But like everyone else, my experiences have colored my perspective.

I don't "cheat" on my wife by tickling other women outside of her knowledge or presence; not because of guilt, or rationalization, or splitting hairs by making what I believe is a false distinction between something "sexual" and something that gives me an "erotic thrill". I don't do it because doing those things without her would make it less enjoyable, and it would hurt her if she found out about it. To me, that makes it much less appealing. Whether she would ever know isn't the issue. I would know. But that's just me. I've come to the conclusion that my experiences and relationships, including my current one (which will be my last), are just not the norm around here, so it's not fair to put my standards on someone else. Sure, there are others who are in, or who have been in, honest and mutually fulfilling relationships (I'm including honesty about sexuality in that), but I've learned we're not as big a demographic as I'd thought.

So, I'm not going to pass judgment on another person's relationship anymore. I've decided it's just not my place. That's between the people involved. I don't know the people involved, and I don't care about the people involved. It's not fair to judge. Outside of abusive behavior, I've come to the conclusion that I honestly don't have the right to have an opinion about it.

You just can't put your definition of honesty on another person's relationship; if you don't like it, then just be thankful you're not in it.
 
I've come to the conclusion that I honestly don't have the right to have an opinion about it.

You always have the right to have an opinion. You just can't force that opinion on someone else. What we are doing is...for the most part...having a rational debate about honesty and cheating. DAJT has a view that most people don't share. It doesn't mean he can't hold that view. It just means that when he expresses it, he's going to invite those holding a differing opinion.
 
""Lying." Pretty strong language, especially to describe something that was never said or even communicated in any way."

Perhaps you have never heard the phrase...a lie of omission is still a lie.
Yes, and I've laughed at it each and every time I've heard it.

Answer me this. If a man doesn't tell his fiancee about his fetish, exactly what lie has he told her?
 
Yes, and I've laughed at it each and every time I've heard it.

Answer me this. If a man doesn't tell his fiancee about his fetish, exactly what lie has he told her?

A lie of omission. As someone who's been married for six and a half years, I can promise you it hurts more than a traditional lie.

~K
 
Cheating is solely someone's affair with his conscience. In real life, I have one guide here: a person with no remorse or guilt could be a sociopath/psychopath. Do we really know who cheats around here for real, as in right now? Being online won't disclose any of that.

But if it's TMF discussing about "cheating" and "non-con", it is nothing but 100% entertainment. People gets off talking about it. Someday it will be evident to see symptoms of Cheating-NonCon Chitchat Fetish. :)
 
A direct lie is suppressing information by presenting false information. A lie of omission suppresses information with silence. The silence is the metaphorical lie. By definition you are not 'telling' a lie but a misrepresentation of 'truth' exists.

Looking at the second definition of lie on dictionary.com: something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture.

By that definition you need not commit any action in order to lie. Silence (the act of not doing something, as myriads has pointed out), in this case, presents the false impression that everything is alright when it actually isn't.

As far as not telling someone about your interests is concerned, I think you're not doing the other person justice in allowing them to join in on your interests. In withholding information about enjoying your interests elsewhere, I think you're doing the other person an injustice by taking your interests outside of the relationship without their knowledge.
 
I've never held the opinion that there is any mandate to reveal anything to your significant other. That is a choice that I leave to you, and anyone else out there to make for their own interactions.
Very magnanimous, indeed. Thank you. However when I say "mandate," I'm not referring to something that you specifically are demanding. I'm talking about an action that is expected of a person in which failure to comply results in punishment, in this case pronouncing the person to be dishonest liars. And not to nitpick, but it was you Myriads, who declared that somebody not disclosing their fetish to their significant other was lying to them. Despite your insistance that you've never held the opinion that there is any mandate to reveal to your significant other, it's pretty clear that you regard such disclosure as compulsory, at the very least. Otherwise you wouldn't have resorted to referring to the nondisclosure as "lying." This is true whether you call it a mandate, obligation, whatever.

Fine.

But that concept of 'fidelity' is built on the foundation of informational lack on your partners part.
What you are suggesting is not only incorrect, it's impossible, both literally and metaphorically. A foundation must be built on something. It can't be built on a lack of something. Whether that something is solid rock or sinking sand, the foundation is built on something. In this case the fidelity is built on mutual love and trust not to engage in sexual or romantic behavior outside the relationship. That's the foundation of most relationships, and it doesn't change simply because one has a fetish.

It's logically consistent with this statement: "It's not cheating if they didn't know I did it." which is built on the exact same concept of informational lack.
No, that's not at all accurate. If you violate the agreement, you've cheated, period. Whether or not she finds out is irrelevant. You've cheated regardless of whether she knows you cheated. Nothing I've said in any way supports this "logic." What I'm proposing is to never make that agreement in the first place. If it is never made, then there can't be any cheating. The best way to insure that agreement never happens is to never bring it up.

Once you start to predicate moral choices that impact two people upon one persons lack of information you are defining a morality that is fine with anything that you can conceal.
First, you are once again confusing a nothing with a something. A lack of something is is a nothing. You can't build a foundation on a nothing. You can't predicate a moral choice on a nothing.

Secondly, it is by no means a given that the moral choices would change, even if the information were disclosed. She may be fine with it, for all he knows. He may decide he's going to do it even if she's not fine with it. So the choice isn't contingent on the the lack of information the way you seem to think it is.

That is a perfectly valid view to hold. But the majority of outside viewers will consider it an unmoral philosophy. And if you choose to hold it, you'll need to own the fact that others will make judgements on you based on it.
I don't believe the vast majority of people have even considered this issue. In my circle, most people don't look at tickling as sexual. And they are correct. It isn't sexual activity. The fact that some have an erotic reaction to it does not change the nature of the activity itself.

As for my ethical philosophy, I'm quite comfortable with it. If some people don't like it, that's their problem, not mine. They'll either find some way to cope or they won't. Life goes on.

The problem I think, that people have with your point, is that you are holding that it's valid under your own moral structure regardless of what exactly your partner defines as 'sexual or romantic'. It IGNORES your partners views by holding that if YOU don't see your actions as 'sexual or romantic' then they are not.

That is YOUR rationalization that lets you do what you want and still feel you are honest and have fidelity.

It makes everyone in your world subject to your views in a direct and absolute way. It's not cheating because to you it's not cheating, and what they think or believe matters not a bit.
Forgive the observation, but it seems clear you feel that when the good people here declare that tickling outside the relationship is cheating, you regard that as a reasonable, perhaps even obvious sentiment. When DAJT says that tickling ISN'T cheating, well then that is simply DAJT "making the world subject to his views in a direct and absolute way." If I'm doing that, then aren't you and the others doing it as well?

To be clear, my arguments about cheating and fidelity are not based on my own moral definitions of them, but rather on how the these concepts are defined by the bulk of society. And by society, I mean the greater society of the world, not the TMF community.

And just to be clear, that is a perfectly valid view point to have. It's not one I'd choose. It's not one that I'd want a partner I was in a relationship with to have. It's one that I feel treats your partners in ways I see as quite unfortunate. It's your choice to have.
Myriads, the issue around which you keep dancing is simply this. You feel that a significant other is owed this information. If a guy doesn't tell his significant other about his fetish, he is denying her information that is hers by right. You are perfectly free to hold to that opinion, but I personally find such attitudes to be indicative of a need to control one's partner. I would never harbor such expectations of a partner, nor would I tolerate a partner who held such expectations of me. The sharing of personal information in my opinion should never be compulsory, but voluntary.

And no one should tell you have to do otherwise. I'm not.
I agree. You're not telling me I have to do otherwise. You're just telling me I have to do otherwise if I don't want to be a liar. ;)

A direct lie is suppressing information by presenting false information.
Nope. A lie is simply the injection of misinformation. It does not suppress or negate the real truth. The best a lie can hope for is that it will distract people from making the effort to see the truth.

A lie of omission suppresses information with silence.
There is no such thing as a lie of ommission. Voluntary silence is not suppression.

The silence is the metaphorical lie. By definition you are not 'telling' a lie but a misrepresentation of 'truth' exists.
By what definition? Certainly not the one you gave. It specifies that a false impression must be conveyed. If one declines to offer personal information about oneself, there is no "false impression," nor is anything "conveyed."

Suppose you're walking with your lady on the boardwalk at the beach. A young girl who is clearly not of age, yet still manifesting womanly qualities that scream out from her french cut bikini comes jiggling down the other direction. You momentarily think "Man if I were 15, I would...." and then she's gone.

Do you have an obligation to tell your lady of your thought? According to your "logic," if you don't, you are "lying" by ommission. What if you notice that your lady doesn't look as pretty as she did 10 years ago? Well, unless you don't want to be a lying bastard, you'd better fess up.

Are you beginning to see the facism of thought behind this whole "lie of ommission" nonsense?
 
You are lying to yourself if you have to completely justify hiding or either going off and doing fetish activities with someone else. To me its like this. If my wife is not interested in my fetish or does not indulge in it, I should respect that and not go looking for others to satisfy that fetish. Now, if my wife suggest something or says yes but has boundaries, you should respect that too. Why? Because she's your wife, or he is your husband. If they go sneaking off just to go get there needs met by someone else you would be upset and would feel betrayed. Hiding it and going off to go satisfy yourself as "harmless" as it is, is wrong. Its a lie. To your point of what if your lady doesn't look as pretty as she did 10 years ago, no man is gonna be like "Well you look like hell," or "Damn you let yourself go" That's the stupidest comparison I've ever heard. You can't compare lying to your love one about there looks as to lying about either your fetish or going out and sneaking around doing whatever you want with your fetish with others, it ain't even in the same concept. You respect your wife/husband no matter what it is. If you wanna go off and satisfy your fetishes with others, then find a spouse that will indulge in that, or doesn't mind as long as you respect what she says or wants. To go out and just do whatever you want is wrong just because you have to satify yourself. Your fetish isn't your life, yes its a part of it, but its not so huge you gotta go out and get yourself a fix all the damn time.
 
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