Lou Panther & TBW Comics needs to be BANNED from the community

[zigster]

to Celtic_Emperor

I happen to like Panther's art....if he broke down and moved from
colored pencil to Adobe photoshop I'm sure it would be greatly improved. One man's meat...another man's poison. Unfortunately, he has left me with a very sour taste and I for one will be happy to see
him go.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I understand what your saying. However, if your going to put your work to sell, one would think the quality would have to be professional if not semi-professional. My comments are based soley on the quality of his artwork now, and more particularly in this sour deal he seems to have ensnared some people here in.

As far as him becoming better, sure it can happen. I get a little better every time I draw something, and I'm currently learning how to use CG to color some of my work.

However, you mentioned photoshop. And in HIS particular case, heres a reply I gave to what another member said to me on my yahoo group-

"And yes, Adobe Photoshop, CorelDraw, and various other programs make
drawing a thing of the past, take the fun out of it, and do indeed
do a disservice to true art. Drawing and art is an individual thing.
It allows a person to shine, present a style, and show their true,
hard-worked talent.

These computer programs make it TOO easy, and even the less gifted
in the arts can make a masterpiece with little to no experience, and
quite frankly, that makes me sick. While these programs are great
for professionals, and a necessity, they are not so for beginners
and amateurs. It is not helping them at all. In fact, its hurting
them. Because they aren't really learning any of the fundamentals of
drawing, shading, or coloring. When the computer can do everything
for you, thats just not right, and anyone that bases their work or
reputation on what a computer has done for them doesn't deserve it.

In actuality, can they even be called artists? No matter what the
genre?"

I think that if he were to take the easy way out and use such programs to aid his below standard skills, it would only cripple him further.


- Damien

 

[zigster]

Take my word for it...using Adobe does not mean your NOT an artist.
Anyone can use it, but it takes skill and craft to use it properly and to create quality. Anyone can pick up a pencil. It takes hard work to turn out good work. I'm an artist and I find Adobe a daunting
challenge. In my opinion, your probably one of those types hesitant to accept change. It's natural and common. I'm sure someone said the same thing about mechanical pencils over wooden ones or ink pens over brushes. Yet, they are perfectly acceptible and used by great artists. The same can be said about critics. Proper critiquing IS an art form in itself. It requires the critic to put aside personal likes and evaluate something (be it art, food a movie ect) on its
merits and how a wide range of tastes would feel about it. People...and many critics..believe critiquing is just giving their opinion. It's not and drawing with Adobe is not cheating...its merely another tool. A tool MANY professional artists cannot master.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I retract that quotation to a degree for this situation. The quote was more about my personal disgust and that user's personal disgust for how easy a computer can make it for artists.

I will give you that its an excellent tool, and lots of people use it. Of course. Thats just a given. I'll be using it.

I probably didn't present my last post very well. But the jist of it is, is that his artwork needs serious help, and he could use photoshop and the like as a quick way to aqquire skill rather than work on his line art and improve that first. While photoshop takes time to master, so does simply drawing. I'm merely suggesting he work on the basics of drawing first.

But then again, this is totally off topic now, and its partly my fault, so I apologize.

I do not however apologize for my first post in this thread, nor my response to the user that posted after me. While I may have been making light of the artist in question, I was also agreeing with the theme of this thread. If that user didn't like it, thats just tough.

Not only does the artist in question have poor drawing skills in my opinion, but it would appear that he is involved in what could become a legal dispute if that is indeed sought after.

Unless someone responds to this or my two other posts, I'm finished here. Thank you for your time.

I hope all parties involved in this matter get what they deserve.


- Damien

 

[10 armed tkler]

no celtic i was talking to everybody. now thats it don't answer me no more, i'll just observe this argument.

 

[10 armed tkler]

picture links work better now

 

[Boone]

well, whether you consider photoshop skills art or not depends on your view of other works created using computers, such as 3d modeling. I happen to believe 3d modeling to be an art, but believe that photoshop skill is more knowledge of the program then creativity, and therefore not art.

 

[zigster]

You contradict yourself..if photoshop skill is merely knowledge then so is 3-D creations and pencil art. Both are merely knowledge of how to use those tools. Creativity comes in many fashions and degrees
and cannot be solely judged on the medium employed. In anycase, we are way off topic. This post concerns Panther and his bad business
practices.

 

[zigster]

Just to keep everyone up to date. I've contacted Adult Check
and other agencies involved and "Lou Panther" is going to
be investigated for his practices. I have once again attempted to contact him with no response. I'm told no one else has had any luck
either. I strongly urge anyone who has not filed a complaint to join the rest of us and do so.
Z

 

[Boone]

I did contradict myself, and after seeing some photoshop art and how it's done I am certain it's just as fine an art as any.

 

[Phineas]

my response here is probably invalid due to Adult Check stating they would investigate the complaint, but my impression is that demanding a refund of Lou for your Adult Check purchase is targeting the wrong organization.

Who did you pay for your AC membership? Lou, or the AC organization? AC is not something unique to Lou's site; since you can access a bunch of sites with it it's more a membership to the industry, whether you bought it specifically for his site or not.

In other words, since you didn't pay Lou for your AC passcode in the first place, there's no reason HE should refund you. Ask AC for a refund instead.

 

[zigster]

That seems to be a misconception people hold in general when it comes to culpability. Adult Check is a middle man operation. They provide a service which they charge for. The webmaster recieves a percentage
for using Adult Check as their AVS system. Adult Check has provided
the service stated. The webmaster ....Lou Panther...has not. He is
the one who has broken the joint service contract and is responsible
for the full sum of the amount charged...as long as I and others can prove that 1) We purchased an Adult check ID exclusively for TBW comics 2) We have not used the Adult Check passcode we were issued to visit other sites. As long as this is established, then Lou Panther
can be held accountable as he advertised product attainable ONLY through the purchase of an Adult Check pass. Product now freely available to the non paying public. The man may not have intended for this to happen, but his failure to address the matter and rectify it
make him a cheat and a liar. There is no defense beyond him being incapacitated and unable to contact his customers. However, this is not the case as he has made minor adjustments to his website in recent days. He is hiding out...evading responsability. Once again, I point out, we do not need his kind in the Tickling community at large.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

What you have said just right there is the biggest point I've seen anyone make thus far, and it surpasses even your previous statements on the matter.

While I am not involved in this in any way, I want to again say, I find it an insult for the man to be charging something or giving exclusive access for such artwork, which in my opinion, is among the worst artwork I've ever seen. I LITERALLY have seen 12 year olds than can draw and color better, and its not because they are gifted or anything.

I suppose my point in saying this again, is that in addition to his being a cheat, etc., as you call him, hes also not even a good artist. You have your reasons for not liking this, and I have mine now.

You stated earlier that anyone that hasn't filled a complaint, should. I would if I could.

I do have some questions for those that did come to buy access for his site at the time- Were you really that desperate? Did you not see the low quality of his art? Did that even matter? No offense to you.

Even if he does provide something you all enjoy, don't you have certain standards on what you expect for the money your going to be charged for his art/comics?


(If anyone is irritated that I've said this for a second time, I believe its only my right, seeing as how everyone else is repeating themselves, the topic hasn't changed, and I'm a contributing member to this site and community. I'm only saying this IF people think that way. I'm not being overly defensive or anything.)


- Damien

 

[zigster]

As I said...it's not the greatest, but its not bad. Your opinion is just that...your opinion. I've seen your art and though your very good I would take Panther's over yours simply because he does
comic strip heroines and you don't. You do manga and that doesn't do a thing for me. You also only do pin up stuff. There are so few artists willing to tackle comic strip style work. Most just do
pin ups. While Panther's are very crude strips as far as comic format goes...it fills a void. In any event, what I or anyone else wishes to
pay to view is irrelevant to the matter. It is not a crime to charge to view...crap...as you would call it. People do that with wrestling all the time. It is a crime to charge for a service and not provide it.

 

[inkling]

I also enjoy Lou Panther's artwork. Some aspects of his rendering are amateurish but his composition is very dynamic and his storylines contain elements that I find arousing. And that's what fetish art is all about. I agree with zigster that the problem lies in Panther's business practices, not his drawing ability; deriding his ability or those who like it is besides the point. I like Renaissance art but I like outsider art too...a taste for one doesn't cancel out an appreciation for the other.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

As I said...it's not the greatest, but its not bad. Your opinion is just that...your opinion. I've seen your art and though your very good I would take Panther's over yours simply because he does
comic strip heroines and you don't. You do manga and that doesn't do a thing for me. You also only do pin up stuff. There are so few artists willing to tackle comic strip style work. Most just do
pin ups. While Panther's are very crude strips as far as comic format goes...it fills a void. In any event, what I or anyone else wishes to
pay to view is irrelevant to the matter. It is not a crime to charge to view...crap...as you would call it. People do that with wrestling all the time. It is a crime to charge for a service and not provide it.

While I respect what you've said in reply, I do not agree with in mainly on the grounds sir, that you don't know what I do and do not draw beyond what you have seen. I think that was a bit presumptuous on your part. And what you see on my site is not even half of what I'm capable of, regardless of the style or genre.


Key word- "void". Is his artwork looked at because it fills that void/fetish/need/desire, or because of his artistic ability? What drew you to his business in the first place? I would only call it a business since hes charging for it.


@ Zigster & Inkling-

I didn't say or think this was a crime only because of the quality of the art, thats a secondary issue to his actions or lack thereof.

Understanding that you two probably have fetishes of some kind that he fulfills is what drove you to his services is one thing. Trying to understand how well or how little the art gave you what you wanted is another. While I'm concerned about you having been screwed by his underhanded methods, I'm just as concerned about how easy (or not) it would be for you swell guys to fall for this again.

What if I decided to make a fetish comic? Would you buy it?

If the answer is no, and its dependant on my reputation or even more so my art, then in retrospect, looking at Panther's art and how its probably always been, and seeing that hes "struck again" with his cheating of the customers, why did you pay to see his art in the first place?


-Damien

 

[inkling]

I didn't pay to see Lou Panther's art. I tried to sign up for his site earlier this year and it was down. I wasn't aware he had started up again, didn't know he'd gone to Adult Check till I read this thread, and was just as happy to see his work for free. Even had I known, I could not have joined zigster in his legal action because in the past I have used AC to look at a wide variety of sites.

Proficient or no, the vitality of Panther's work is what I like. It's not a matter of settling for it as there are many proficient artists rendering tickling art. But technical ability is not the sole measure of a work's appeal. For example, Mandell is a very proficient artist whose work doesn't float my boat. I think he appeals to people who enjoy his ability to render celebrity likenesses, but that aspect isn't important to me. "BAC" and Franco Saudelli are very proficient artists whose work I love. In addition to their obvious command of the pen, their work expresses an informed, insightful quality as well as the aforementioned vitality. Their work feels alive to me. I have paid to see it and will pay to see more of it.

I wanted to see more of Panther's work after seeing some samples of it. It was appreciation, not desperation, that led me to that decision. I didn't know anything of his business reputation before, and now that I know, I wouldn't do business with him. Based only on the samples of your work that I have seen, I wouldn't be in the market for your fetish work because like zigster I don't care for anime. Anime characters look like children to me, and I find that a turnoff in sexually-oriented material. The sterling of your business reputation wouldn't change that fact for me, nor would the technical quality of your work.

I'm uncomfortable with the turn of this discussion because I think you see your work and Panther's as being on opposite ends of a spectrum. I see both as valid, and able to appeal to overlapping audiences.

 

[zigster]

Agreed inkling..CE..if your capable of more than you show in your
group then you should display that as well. Your judged by your work.
I see manga art...very nice...doesn't do a damn thing for me. It's a matter of taste. You might argue good over bad, but its a moot arguement. In any case, Panther does or did something you and many others either cannot or have not done for tickling art; created material that arouses me (I'm speaking of myself in this case because I cannot speak for others) Your art doesn't...Ozzy's and Ftkl's does...It's all in how the artist presents it. I'm quite certain many
individals enjoy your art on an arousal level. I'm not one of them.
Thats just the way it goes and is why there are may styles and types
of artists.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'm not suggesting any style of art is greater over the other, and I fully understand how certain needs can be met through various artists.

My comments were based soley on the quality of the work. Not its messege, or implications, or what have you.

I appriciate the both of you carrying yourselves as you have in this conversation. It had class, and rather than starting an arguement, you gave me something better, a conversation.

While I'm not here in this community or site because of a fetish, I don't have a problem with people that are. I have/will draw requests for such fetish related material for different sites I may make. Yahoo groups was a nice start, but making your own site is more rewarding.

I'm not downing Panther as an individual or as a fetishist, I just find it amazing that his art has been put to sell based strictly on the quality. I suppose what I'm saying to some degree is that if its not professional looking enough for demanding tastes, there should be no charge for it. And his involvement in this legal dispute makes him a character I'd probably not want to be aquainted with.

The title and topic of this thread calls for a banning of Panther from the community, I agree to an extent, with banning being a last resort.


- Damien

 

[rnc2011]

Panther is the best of the best right now. ive been keeping up with your other posts and you seem to have a problem with most of the artists. also you consider yourself superior. Lou may have deadline issues but its worth the wait and money. if you lose money on this instead of complaining for the loss of 8.00 think about why you may have lost it. he may be lazy. or it may just be he had issues in his life outside of comics. i am loyal to mr. panther and i have read his comics for a long time now. that being said it was not my intention to insult any of you and i apologize if i did so. just keep in mind that hes human just like the rest of us

 

[laughinggaszone]

Panther is the best of the best right now. ive been keeping up with your other posts and you seem to have a problem with most of the artists. also you consider yourself superior. Lou may have deadline issues but its worth the wait and money. if you lose money on this instead of complaining for the loss of 8.00 think about why you may have lost it. he may be lazy. or it may just be he had issues in his life outside of comics. i am loyal to mr. panther and i have read his comics for a long time now. that being said it was not my intention to insult any of you and i apologize if i did so. just keep in mind that hes human just like the rest of us

Ok...this thread is a zillion years old. There were some issues with Lou's paysite and updates, but he scrapped it for putting out completed comics. This thread didn't really need to get bumped as its just rehashing old news that was effectively dealt with.
LGZ

 

[TickleMantis]

[LOCKED]



...not really, I don't have the power to lock threads, but LGZ is on the money. This is old beyond old and just brings up bad blood all over again.

 

[monkeydick]

A little harsh, eh bud?

 

[rnc2011]

sorry was in a bad mood^^ my apologies you are exactly right and i am sorry

 

[TKForce]

sorry was in a bad mood^^ my apologies you are exactly right and i am sorry

Then why in the name of all that's good did you give this thread life again?
It had just fallen from the front page again. Please just let it die then!
Nothing against you rnc2011, just a suggestion that we all should let this sleeping dog lay.

(it's a the top of the front page right now so my reply did no further damage, to those who would spot the irony)