Max Says Goodbye To TMF

[MaxSpeer]

Dear Friends;

It is out of frustration, anger, and sadness that I am saying goodbye to this Forum as an active member. What saddens me is that I was among the few that was contacted in the initial assembling of this wonderful site. I was a Mod and given my own Forum. What a great honor! I do not like what we've become and, because of that, I am asking that my Forum be removed from here.

Over the past years, I have participated in heated discussions about some of our "Golden Rules" and have disagreed. Several things have recently arose that have sealed my decision. The first, was the 'violent' pulling of my good friend, Andy's image contribution. I believe that there were images there that were so ridiculously benign that it was laughable that they were yanked. But, this was merely a symptom of the absurd lengths we are now going through to be so politically correct. I am sick to death of this Christ-Centric-Super-Conservative-Whitebread kind of politics in Washington today, and it has been mirrored in our, once open-minded forum. People here are afraid to say the words "tickle" and "minor" in the same sentence, let alone write about it.
One of the straws that broke the camel's back was when I noticed that Krokus' signiture is that of a skinhead bearing a huge swatstika on his chest. When I expressed my concerns at this offensive display I was told that he had the right to have it and it did not break any of our rules. Excuse me now as I hold back the puke. Andy posts an innocent, far from sexual, and adorable picture of a toddler innocently tickling her mother's belly and that gets yanked yet this offensive garbage is allowed to stay?
The reason the pic was yank is because we here at the TMF are regraded as a "sexual site". THis is what was expressed.
May I ask you all a question? What about the news, magazines, tv, etc that showed a 13 year old Brooke Shields done up like a prostitute in Pretty Baby? It was a story about girls who have sex for money? What about Taxi Driver with a 13 Year old hooker Jodie Foster? There is nothing stated when people enter this site that it is here for sexual gratification. The fact that people get it is trite. People get sexual satisfaction from anything, shoe stores, Victoria's Secrets Catalogues (which feature women under 18)Women's magazines (Geoerge in Seinfeld. Here's a clue, many models seen today are under 18). People might get gratification from watching Pretty Baby or Lolita (which is a novel about a man having sex with a 13 year old) and is still sold and the videos are also still sold. They are NOT ILLEGAL!

I am saying all this for several reasons. First, all of you who are so uptight about saying the wrong thing have got to take a chill pill. You're not DOING IT so why are you all red-in-the-face about SAYING IT. Take a look at the thriving websites on the Internet that make TMF look like the Tele Tubbies.

Do you know why my Shannon stories were removed from here? Because Purvis, a guy who I invited to NEST and was considered a 'friend' complained that "Mr. Speer's stories contain a girl who is 17, going on 18 and isnt that against the rules?" It has gotten where friends are turning in friends. Sounds like the 50's all over again doesn't it? I was asked to make her 18 and I said that there was no way that I would change the whole freakin' theme of the story to make her a few weeks older just to abide by the Golden Rule. Well, here's a message to you all. Gold is not "God". It is an element that can be bent, shaped, altered. Changed.

So you think about it. What kind of place yanks out innocent, benign, non-sexual, fully clothed pictures of friends tickling each other, yet allows nazi symbols, occasional racist remarks, and human waste like that?

My hat goes off to all the video producers, incredible authors and publishers who make up our Community. But I gotta bail out of a club that doesn't respect its members (me) and has a very twisted sense of what is decent and what isn't.

I will still be active doing NEST and writing and all that I do but just not here. Please remove my Forum.

Thank You and Goodbye!

Max

 

[Cosmo_ac]

i'm sorry to see you go Max. I actually agree with you on a lot of the Taboo subject you talk about. I see tickling as ticklng, not sex, and i can't help but laugh at some of the reactions people have to the subject of tickling and minors. However, i can see why one must be careful, especially when we have members who seem intent on reporting anything they consider "Immoral" (gasp) to the police and try and have this place shut down. I am sorry to see you go though as i remember reading your stories when i first found the tickling comunity. I hope to one day have the pleasure of meeting you at a NEST. Best of luck in the future with your ventures.

 

[jugner]

I second that

 

[kis123]

I wasn't very happy about Krokus' picture either. He says it's some freedom of expression thing, but as a black female I was greatly offended. I felt that this site is about freedom of expression and that is going to offend people at times so I sucked up and shut up about it.

There are enough teenagers having more sex out here than I EVER will. Writing stories about them doesn't offend me. Besides, if something offends you, find something else to look at!!! We're supposed to be a free country that allows freedom of expression. I hate it when people get puritannical when it's convenient. Someone's buying the smut and it's not just the non-religious! Many on this forum know where I stand spiritually so I do have a moral code. However, I let people be who they are and try not to judge. I spend more time praying for change than beating up on those who do not believe.

I've read some of your stories and am sorry that they will no longer be available. I feel you have been a major contribution to the forum and hate to see you go. But I do believe in standing by convictions and if this is how you're going to do it, I support your efforts 100%. I hope you'll forgive and one day we see you again. Good luck and farewell.

 

[The_New_One]

Damn, I hope we'll keep hearing from you, Max! You were one of the first people I heard of when I came to the tickling community some years ago... Good luck for your future and thanks for your many great contributions!
Greetz,
TNO

 

[Myriads]

Hello All, and Max in specific,

As this was done as an open letter rather then a personal one, I feel that I should reply to it here.

First up I'm sad to see you leave Max, and wished that you spoke to me about more of your issues before making this choice. Other then our one exchange on the sig issue we've not spoken. Let me speak to them now. Perhaps you shall reconsider.

Let's start with the big mainstream post that prompted this.

Why is the TMF so hard on underage images and things that look inocent (and are)?

It's simple. What do I tell the mother who's family web site has been knocked off the web due to bandwidth overload who back traced the entry links to here and is horrified to find that thier site is being veiwed by people (who in her opinion) are perverts? This has happend more times then I have fingers and toes.

Even better, what do I tell the mother of the 12 year old who has started GETTING e-mails addressed to her daughter from community members asking personal questions like did getting tickled turn you on? And so on. This has happend three times, and the authorities were brought in on it once. I spent a good chunk of a day talking to the east podunk police and a angry parent, putting out what was almost a forum ending fire.

99% of the community is wonderful, and can view images such as these with the proper context and present no problems, but that last 1% does shit that threatens this place and all the people who work here with serious legal issues. It's that 1% that can't seem to understand proper boundries that placed me into a no tolerance position for any underage material. And because I can't selectivly enforce no underage stuff in one media type, It goes across the board to stories and clips and what have you. It sucks but it's how it's washed out.

Here is a fact: There are community members who can't keep thier fantasies off kids. This can have serious real world results for us here when these folks start crossing lines. Andy is not one of these folks, but his posts and ones like them have time and again led to serious problems with this sort of community member. Many times we have asked for such posts to not contain underage images per our rules. Mimi encounterd the thread while in a down mood and found over 20 links to posts that could cause us issues, They were removed. She made a link reply because she was in a poor mood, and didn't want to start an issue, one happened anyhow. I posted to the thread myself as soon as I became aware, but by then everyone had taken up thier corners and were crankly staring at each other. Not much to be done but wait after that for all to cool off.

I just cannot justify feeding that 1% of the community that can cause us a terminal situation. That's why his stuff went. I regret the loss of his work. But I'd also regret another letter from mom showing me a copy of a letter to her tween daughter that starts: "Do you like to tickle boys when you kiss them? Do you ever tickle your daddy?" far far more then snipping a few thread links.

Welcome to my world.

This is the stuff that I get to deal with running an open forum. It's a lot different from gatherings where you screen everyone who enters. We get a LOT of civilian walk in traffic that is curious and sometimes hostle. Part of my choices here are making calls that are designed to protect the whole. It's a balance and some stuff looses everytime I make a call.

Is it stupid to ban stuff about 17 year olds when 17 is legal in MOST (but not all!) of the nation? It sure seems so, but a line had to be dropped someplace and I chose the one that the most conservitive states use. Once again, so we have the most protection in the most places.

That's why the rule is in place. To cover our ass so we can stay here. I also feel that it's not right to place images that involve tickling and minors on a forum that is at it's core a sexual environment. I know many members here see tickling as an innocent and non-sexual thing. But far more DO. So when images of children are placed here you are dropping them into a sexual context by default. I can't find a way to defend that, and have tried. The world does not see a distinction between the sexual and no sexual ticklers. To them we are all the same color, and it's one they see as ill. That's a reality that as Admin I need to accept and deal with, as I can't change it. Outside our little world here things are different.

Whew. Many words. Ok next topic.

Offensive Sig images.

Did swastica guy offend me? Yup. it sure did. My basic thought was why the hell is this on a tickling forum (which is my response to most sig images and lots of the stuff in P&R and Humor)

I got more complaints about that one then any other this year. It won the offend the masses prize.

But I've also gotten complaints about sigs with religious statements in them, one person feels the Jewish state participates in terrorism and was seriously bugged by a star of david in one users sig. Another was pissed at a sig that insulted President Bush. Another was pissed over one that knocked They guy that produced farenhite 9-11. Rap lyrics draw complaints like honey draws bees. Two users were troubled by a black power slogan feeling that it created a hostal environment for them. All these were canidates for editing.

My point? Sig's seem to manage to offend everyone. What do I get to do about it as Tzar? I get to draw a line of course. My first instinct is to turn the damned things off. But people like them a lot, and I understand that making a post personal with one means a lot to users.

So here I chose to make my line fall very far into the realm of 'free speach'. As long as a sig was not being made as a personal attack on one member I let it stand. It's user was making a statement that they believed in. I may not like it, but I support the ability to make it. Supporting speach rights is two sided blade one gets cut by it often. occasionly we get ugly speach. If a user wants to tell us that they have ugly ideas in thier noggen then perhaps it's a useful warning.

No one ever bothered to ask Krokus why he had that image in his sig. You may be surprised at the answer. But you may also note that it went away. Based on the number of user issues with it I had a nice discussion with him and he removed it at his choice. Issue solved. It took a touch longer, but was resolved.

This one was a speach issue that understandably you disliked the result of.

Using the logic of your post I could say: all of you who are so uptight about someone posting a offensive thing have got to take a chill pill. They are not DOING IT so why are you all red-in-the-face about them SAYING IT.

Sound familliar? Our two issues, speach in sigs and minor posts are linked. The difference is that one of the two topics presents a threat to the forum going on.

Everyday I get e-mails from users who are torqued over something. Usualy it's tiny and from an outside perspective seems silly. Sometimes like the minor issue and swasticas it's big and the upsetness is not too hard to understand. I AGREE with your 'it's just images' point. I am one of the most open, libral sorts you'll ever find when it comes to ideas and thier expression. Are the minor things we cut more innocent then the stuff on the TV, magazines and national media? Yes. But, and it's a big but. I'm tasked with defending just this little backwater forum. and on this tiny little backwater forum, such innocent images mixed with our community have proven to be a real threat to the forum. How the rest of the world media dances along with minor images aqnd sexuality matters not one little bit if the TMF gets squashed by people who do have issues with them. And based on the issues we've had til now we can be. I still see it as a When not an if.

I run a small comic book shop. We sell adult publications also. I have my local municipality on my ass constantly. I have to bag and seal all adult stuff. Police send in minors to try and buy it. It's a potential problem. The city looked into legal action at one point.

Drive a mile to Borders. There is Playboy on the rack open. A copy of the London Sun with it's page 3 girl open for all the world to see. A copy of the Joy of sex on the shelves with some teens peeking at it. Does the city bother them at all? No.

Why the difference? I'm small they are big. I can be stepped on with no fear, Borders cannot. Different rules for different sized (and powered) businesses.

The same holds true for the TMF. We are small. We cannot survive a fight that arises out of a minor issue regardless of how the rest of the world may see it. I cannot run the TMF on this issue as liberaly as the rest of the media may seem to allow. The risk is just to damn high.

Someday the world may get so liberal that we can say 'who cares?' and let things fall as they will regarding posts. But we are not there.

Max, I do hope you shall resider your leaving. I've always valued your contributions, and continue to do so, though you may not agree with all my positions. Perhaps now that you have some more insight into why I have to take certian postures your choice may change also.

Be well,
Myriads

 

[Armpit_licker]

That was a great post by Myriads...

Max, you have been my fav poster for a long time and it's going to be sad seeing you go.

I do wanna say the pic of Edward Norton did not offend me in the least and I am shocked that many here are offended by it.... Did anyone see the movie? It was about a racist natzi who turned his life around for the better and wasn't racist anymore. It's a truely good story.

 

[hajak60]

There's something valuable that Myriads brought up here, something we must be constantly aware of. The attitude that "different is alright" that was preached in decades prior did not take hold. We live in a witch hunt society and the media is constantly on the prowl for the next sex-fiend to plaster all over the news.

It only takes one, just one, little girl's mother to call NBC and you can kiss all this goodbye. Not just the TMF but other forums as well. Clips vendors will enjoy the full scrutiny of law enforcement. Ever want to get a personal call from the law? Or the Feds (this is interstate after all)? You potentially can if you create (what they deem) pornographic material and put it on a website condemned as a kiddy-porn haven. Intentions are irrelevant, once you get sucked into their radar you never get out.

Don't think this community isn't monitored. Law enforcement is under constant pressure to be on top of web crimes before the news media makes them the flavor of the month. What Myriads said was as serious as a heart attack, it only takes ONE story on a news network to put us on every front page. The media is always looking for the next feeding frenzy, you don't want to be it.

I have lurked around this community forever and I have always loved Max Spere's work. His stories are awesome, he was pinnacle in getting the gatherings started, and he has been a positive part of this community. I truly hate to see him sign off of the TMF as I can see his point of view and it is valid. However, Myriads summed up perfectly why zero-tolerance, with all its problems, is the only choice in the end.

Max, I hope you reconsider. You ARE right; there is a "Christ-Centric-Super-Conservative-Whitebread" agenda at work here. However, this agenda is not being set by the forum, it is being set by an out-of-control, intolerant society. Sometimes you have to make a tough call to stay below the witch hunter's radar. I'm glad I don't have to make those calls.

 

[Mitchell]

I have read all posts in this thread, and particularly studied both Max's and Myriads. Both of you have made valid points. Here is how I see the issue.
Max, while you make a valid point about people being uptight with the whole minor-adult issue, I can honestly see the TMF policy on such things. Perhaps it is stiff, but as an adult website dedicated to sexuality, think of what it would be like if minors say 15 or 16 got into the site, and started setting up meetings say with 18 or 19 year olds for sex and or bondage tickling, and the parents reported the participants and the site. While Myriads admits in his TMF rule post that US law doesnt mandate it, it becomes a hairy situation. When I first joined TMF in the old room, I was talking to someone I thought was a legal girl one day, and forgot to ask age, and then a "cop" came on and told me that the girl was 17, he was watching me, and I was in trouble with the NJ division of sex crimes for talking sexual and tickling talk with minors. I thought it was real, and it scared the shit out of me. It was not until Myriads assured me that such had happened to others, and that it was a hoax, that I calmed down, and realized it was fake. What if police or parents do watch minor's online activities and such? It can create a bad situation. While it may seem extreme, I have to say that I agree with TMF policy on this issue. harsh yes, but under the circumstances, the right policy in my view.
Before I make this next statement, I want to say that I like Krokus as a person, and have never had any problem with him, and have always gotten on fine with him, and found him to be a good guy. That being said:
I was not aware of the issue of the swastika in the signature. While Iam certainly not a religious Jew, I find that symbol or any other symbol of predjudice or racism highly offensive, and feel that the site should make it a policy to have all such offensive material removed immediately, or ban any offenders of such. To me, a racist or religously bias symbol is wrong, seeing as we are a community of all races, religions, and sexual orientations, and preferences. In that regard, I do agree with Max, and feel that TMF should have a very strict policy about such a rule regarding any symbol of such. In my view, any bias posts, symbols, or such, should result in one warning to the offender, and if the action or symbol is repeated or not removed, a ban should result. If we have a policy of banning for such issues as "Golden Rule" violations, and attacking other posters, then in my view any symbol which is bias against a religion, race or sexual orientation needs to be viewed as such. I think the "Golden Rule" needs to be expanded to include these issues, and we should not have policies that say it is okay to do one thing, and then have other policy which says something else is okay.
Myriads is correct when he says that he has many issues to deal with regarding posting issues, and how to determine policy on them. While running a forum such as this is never an easy task, certain guidelines must prevail.
In my view, on the issue of Max's post and his issues with the forum, I believe he has valid points. Myriads in turn has valid arguments as well. It is unfortunate that Max feels it necessary to leave TMF due to this issue. Being a victim of a scary situation regarding minors, on that issue I have to say I side with the TMF. This is such a hairy situation, that if I were the head of TMF I probably would have such a policy as well. That being said, I do feel that certain rule tightening against truly offensive posters and issues should be implemented. Habitual offensive posters who attack people, for posts, attacking political posts against forum rules, religious or sexual orientation, race issues, and such should recieve one warning and be banned, no matter who they are. I feel that certain troublemakers are able to get away with a bit more than they should, due to rules that give them a bit too much leeway.
These are only my views. Perhaps I expanded them beyond Max's post. Again, Iam sorry he feels he needs to leave. I never like to see a community member feel he or she has to depart. I hope he reconsiders his decision. If you choose not to, Max, then good luck to you.

Mitch

 

[Bassman_Mark]

Why don't you just disable the ability to create signatures?

It would save hard drive cycles, bandwith, and make the forum much faster to load for people without broadband Internet.

Useless signatures just take up space and cause controversy.

 

[daryl]

I'm with Bassman on this one. Disable the signatures. If people want to make a statement, let them put up their own web pages to do it. That would be fine. This isn't the place for it.

 

[WallStreet]

Max leaving the TMF is another black eye for the forum.
Max leaves, and 1000 idiots remain.
Fact is, if all of the non-tickling bullshit was removed from this site, you'd see about 90% of the posts disappear.
I can understand Myriads' methods. He is not payed to be here, and if he were to regulate this forum up to everybody's standards he'd be here 24/7, which is impossible. So he sometimes has to make decisions based on time.
How many times have people like Tron come here and threatened to "report" the TMF if things weren't edited to his liking? Here is a classic example of an asshole with too much time on his hands. Another sad sod who's only enjoyment in life is coming to the TMF to bitch about women who stood him up at hotels and a variable plethera of useless garbled banter that would be a waste of your times to hear rehashed.

When this forum began it was based on a group of people with a mutual interest. Tickling. To see how people's individual personalities have degenerated this place is a sad thing indeed.
Luckily, I realise that there is a whole wide world outside of the TMF. Some of you people should check it out sometime.

Happy Trails Max. Your contributions won't be forgotten.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

just a quick post about the Swastika thing. Krokus wasn't posting the swastika in support of Nazi's. It was meant as a sign of Justice, though i'll admit when i first saw the sign i was very confused with what the message was he was trying to convey, and at the time he didn't seem willing to clarify. If memory serves the Swastika has been a sign that has had many meanings, though perhaps none as well known as the Nazi signature. I remember that Tibettan(spelling?) monks actually used this sign, if i remember right, before it was stolen by the Nazis, but it's been a while.

Anyway, if i got this wrong, krokus is welcome to correct me.

Also want to chime in that i agree with Myriads. I don't like it, in the sense we have 1% of idiots who do the stuff he talked about, but i know we have to protect this place so long as there around. It sucks, but i'd rather this place be "PC" then gone.

 

[Mitchell]

Cos, These are my thoughts:
I wasnt saying specifically that Krokus' intentions were what the Nazis were with the idea of the swastika symbol. That would be wrong and stupid of me to say. The idea of a justice symbol makes sense. However, to Jewish people especially who had relatives killed in Nazi Germany, and to others of all religions, faiths, and races who hated the practices of Hitler and his followers, the swastika was a symbol of hate. I once had a roommate in college who was not aware I was Jewish, and when we showed up to campus on the first day, he unveils a flag with a swastika on it. When I told him that I was Jewish, and please not to hang such a flag in our room, because it was a symbol of Nazi hate, he put it away in his trunk. I can understand from Max's point of view why such a symbol would bother him. Iam bothered by it, too, as it is a symbol of hate, and I dont feel any symbols as such should be allowed in signatures.
On your other point: Obviously Myriads cant be here to police the forum 24-7-365. He has his own life and spends enough time dealing with some of the crap that goes on here. I do agree with him about the minor issue. I feel that the guidelines set here are the appropriate ones, and while there is clearly a lot of BS that goes on here that should be changed, this policy is not one of them. I would rather have a forum with a strict policy for this, then not to have one at all. So on this issue I agree with Myriads, and feel the policy should be kept in place. I understand that Max is unhappy about it, although I question why he is leaving the forum if this has been the policy for this length of time. What he does is his decision, but that is my question.
Bottom line: You are not going to please all of the people all of the time. It is unfortunate that all this had to happen. I have expressed my views about what I think should be done, and wont go into them again. All I can say is that Iam sorry that Max has decided to leave, and I wish him well.

Mitch

 

[milagros317]

I'm very sorry to see you leave, Max.

I will follow your stories and other material at your own website.

For those who don't have the URL, here is Max Speer's own story archive (with a link to his page about NEST, too):

http://www.kittletown.com/index2.html

 

[Prime]

Max leaving the TMF is another black eye for the forum.
Max leaves, and 1000 idiots remain.

Yeah maybe a thousand idiots remain, but no its not another black eye for the forum. I have nothing personal toward Mr. Spear. However i view this thread as another person who had someone here he considers a friend slighted. I hope he finds his happy place where there are no rules and he can do what he wants and say what he wants. Probably won't happen though. He is doing the right thing...if he isnt happy here he should go..as well as anyone else that's not happy...better to move on then poison the well with unhappiness with the way things work.

Good luck Max.

As for Krokus's signature i did not like it either...i have no idea what he had in mind when he was using it, but come on...some where deep in a persons mind they have to know that is going to offend people no matter what he intended it to mean...so i ask people here to please consider things carefully before they use something like that.

One last thing i post images in the forum from time to time. I have to rethink that now...its not that i feel anyone has been slighted. I mean rules are rules. I may have posted questionable photos as well..although i do try to confirm the age..people make mistakes. I wont get mad about it though. The reason i have to reconsider is the people who are e-mailing the people whos links are posted. Especially if a minor slips through and gets posted...ask yourself this folks..how many of you want your kids emailed by grown ups they dont know asking them tickling questions...thats just disturbing. Anyon ethat doesnt think so is one sick puppy.

 

[Jimblast]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath...

....and chill out. Max does have some valid points. Myriads also has responsibility. I am probably the most politically incorrect individual in the forum, but there has to be protocol here. All this in the name of keeping the integrity of the forum and not allowing it to shut down. I haven't always agreed with the mods in the forum, and have myself at one point decided to discontinue my membership. I reconsidered by putting myself in Myriads shoes as well as the other mods. I hope everyone does the same. Max, there are times that you're going to disagree with the interpretation of certain rules, however, please reconsider your membership. You are an invaluable contributor to this sight. We appreciate your work. Additionally, I feel it's good to show our appreciation to the founders and mods in the forum who have put in hours of thankless work in keeping it going. This forum is to be enjoyed by all and let's hope that it is an ongoing concern.

😀

 

[WorkInProgress]

I just want to say, in brief, I empathize with Myriads. Thing is, on a board that attracts as huge and diverse a crowd as this site does--a good thing to do in many ways--it is inevitable that he will have to make tough judgment calls about what to allow and what not to. Allowing everything that anybody wants to do, uncensored, is not an option available to him, for reasons that he explains eloquently in his statement here. Given that, he must draw up criteria and make choices. It is inevitable that people will disagree with him on specific decisions, and of course people should feel free to express such disagreement, but when you do express it, it is well to bear in mind that you're talking to an altruistic service provider, not a self-serving power-monger. Even those who are the most severely inconvenienced by what he bans, or most severely offended by what he allows, can still realize that he is doing all of us a huge, sacrificial favor by operating this forum at all.

That said, I think we can do without the swastika. It is a sign of pure hatred and white supremacy, no matter how you spin-doctor it. That raises the question for some people, what about the star of David? I say run it, and also run posts critical of the actions of the nation-state of Israel. Like it or not, there are no simple answers when it comes to the Middle East, and if we're going to have a General Discussion board, we need to hear different angles, even though it's impossible to speak a word on the subject without rankling somebody. Now, on the subject of minors: it's a question of where to draw the line. Maybe there are other places to draw it besides where it's drawn here. I would recommend that those who think that is so make their suggestions to Myriads, but that they close their suggestions with the words "But whatever you decide, thanks so much for running this great forum."

Just my two cents.

 

[Dave2112]

Although I am sad to see Max go, I have to completely agree with Myr on this one. There have to be lines. Believe me, I have fought on quite a few occasions over the age-limits regarding artwork and fictional stories. Personally, what is written and drawn did not actually happen...but again a line must be drawn. We cannot afford to be arbitrary here.

If we allow stories of 17-year-olds, where do we have the power to stop the ones that will creep in (and they WILL...give it a week) about 6-year-olds? And when they DO creep in...every single one of you will be calling for someone's head. There cannot be a grey area.

No matter where you go in society, there are certain rules. We don't have to go overboard and clamp down on every single thing, but without guidlines, there is anarchy...and a ton of complaints.

The legal issue aside...the things we do, we do for a reason. And none of the hard lines we wind up having to draw are ever done lightly.

Good luck in your future endeavors, Max...and I will continue to follow your work. I hope you reconsider, I truly do, but I also hope that you fully understand our position.

😎

 

[Neutron]

Well Said..

Hello All, and Max in specific,

As this was done as an open letter rather then a personal one, I feel that I should reply to it here.

First up I'm sad to see you leave Max, and wished that you spoke to me about more of your issues before making this choice. Other then our one exchange on the sig issue we've not spoken. Let me speak to them now. Perhaps you shall reconsider.

Let's start with the big mainstream post that prompted this.

Why is the TMF so hard on underage images and things that look inocent (and are)?

It's simple. What do I tell the mother who's family web site has been knocked off the web due to bandwidth overload who back traced the entry links to here and is horrified to find that thier site is being veiwed by people (who in her opinion) are perverts? This has happend more times then I have fingers and toes.

Even better, what do I tell the mother of the 12 year old who has started GETTING e-mails addressed to her daughter from community members asking personal questions like did getting tickled turn you on? And so on. This has happend three times, and the authorities were brought in on it once. I spent a good chunk of a day talking to the east podunk police and a angry parent, putting out what was almost a forum ending fire.

99% of the community is wonderful, and can view images such as these with the proper context and present no problems, but that last 1% does shit that threatens this place and all the people who work here with serious legal issues. It's that 1% that can't seem to understand proper boundries that placed me into a no tolerance position for any underage material. And because I can't selectivly enforce no underage stuff in one media type, It goes across the board to stories and clips and what have you. It sucks but it's how it's washed out.

Here is a fact: There are community members who can't keep thier fantasies off kids. This can have serious real world results for us here when these folks start crossing lines. Andy is not one of these folks, but his posts and ones like them have time and again led to serious problems with this sort of community member. Many times we have asked for such posts to not contain underage images per our rules. Mimi encounterd the thread while in a down mood and found over 20 links to posts that could cause us issues, They were removed. She made a link reply because she was in a poor mood, and didn't want to start an issue, one happened anyhow. I posted to the thread myself as soon as I became aware, but by then everyone had taken up thier corners and were crankly staring at each other. Not much to be done but wait after that for all to cool off.

I just cannot justify feeding that 1% of the community that can cause us a terminal situation. That's why his stuff went. I regret the loss of his work. But I'd also regret another letter from mom showing me a copy of a letter to her tween daughter that starts: "Do you like to tickle boys when you kiss them? Do you ever tickle your daddy?" far far more then snipping a few thread links.

Welcome to my world.

This is the stuff that I get to deal with running an open forum. It's a lot different from gatherings where you screen everyone who enters. We get a LOT of civilian walk in traffic that is curious and sometimes hostle. Part of my choices here are making calls that are designed to protect the whole. It's a balance and some stuff looses everytime I make a call.

Is it stupid to ban stuff about 17 year olds when 17 is legal in MOST (but not all!) of the nation? It sure seems so, but a line had to be dropped someplace and I chose the one that the most conservitive states use. Once again, so we have the most protection in the most places.

That's why the rule is in place. To cover our ass so we can stay here. I also feel that it's not right to place images that involve tickling and minors on a forum that is at it's core a sexual environment. I know many members here see tickling as an innocent and non-sexual thing. But far more DO. So when images of children are placed here you are dropping them into a sexual context by default. I can't find a way to defend that, and have tried. The world does not see a distinction between the sexual and no sexual ticklers. To them we are all the same color, and it's one they see as ill. That's a reality that as Admin I need to accept and deal with, as I can't change it. Outside our little world here things are different.

Whew. Many words. Ok next topic.

Offensive Sig images.

Did swastica guy offend me? Yup. it sure did. My basic thought was why the hell is this on a tickling forum (which is my response to most sig images and lots of the stuff in P&R and Humor)

I got more complaints about that one then any other this year. It won the offend the masses prize.

But I've also gotten complaints about sigs with religious statements in them, one person feels the Jewish state participates in terrorism and was seriously bugged by a star of david in one users sig. Another was pissed at a sig that insulted President Bush. Another was pissed over one that knocked They guy that produced farenhite 9-11. Rap lyrics draw complaints like honey draws bees. Two users were troubled by a black power slogan feeling that it created a hostal environment for them. All these were canidates for editing.

My point? Sig's seem to manage to offend everyone. What do I get to do about it as Tzar? I get to draw a line of course. My first instinct is to turn the damned things off. But people like them a lot, and I understand that making a post personal with one means a lot to users.

So here I chose to make my line fall very far into the realm of 'free speach'. As long as a sig was not being made as a personal attack on one member I let it stand. It's user was making a statement that they believed in. I may not like it, but I support the ability to make it. Supporting speach rights is two sided blade one gets cut by it often. occasionly we get ugly speach. If a user wants to tell us that they have ugly ideas in thier noggen then perhaps it's a useful warning.

No one ever bothered to ask Krokus why he had that image in his sig. You may be surprised at the answer. But you may also note that it went away. Based on the number of user issues with it I had a nice discussion with him and he removed it at his choice. Issue solved. It took a touch longer, but was resolved.

This one was a speach issue that understandably you disliked the result of.

Using the logic of your post I could say: all of you who are so uptight about someone posting a offensive thing have got to take a chill pill. They are not DOING IT so why are you all red-in-the-face about them SAYING IT.

Sound familliar? Our two issues, speach in sigs and minor posts are linked. The difference is that one of the two topics presents a threat to the forum going on.

Everyday I get e-mails from users who are torqued over something. Usualy it's tiny and from an outside perspective seems silly. Sometimes like the minor issue and swasticas it's big and the upsetness is not too hard to understand. I AGREE with your 'it's just images' point. I am one of the most open, libral sorts you'll ever find when it comes to ideas and thier expression. Are the minor things we cut more innocent then the stuff on the TV, magazines and national media? Yes. But, and it's a big but. I'm tasked with defending just this little backwater forum. and on this tiny little backwater forum, such innocent images mixed with our community have proven to be a real threat to the forum. How the rest of the world media dances along with minor images aqnd sexuality matters not one little bit if the TMF gets squashed by people who do have issues with them. And based on the issues we've had til now we can be. I still see it as a When not an if.

I run a small comic book shop. We sell adult publications also. I have my local municipality on my ass constantly. I have to bag and seal all adult stuff. Police send in minors to try and buy it. It's a potential problem. The city looked into legal action at one point.

Drive a mile to Borders. There is Playboy on the rack open. A copy of the London Sun with it's page 3 girl open for all the world to see. A copy of the Joy of sex on the shelves with some teens peeking at it. Does the city bother them at all? No.

Why the difference? I'm small they are big. I can be stepped on with no fear, Borders cannot. Different rules for different sized (and powered) businesses.

The same holds true for the TMF. We are small. We cannot survive a fight that arises out of a minor issue regardless of how the rest of the world may see it. I cannot run the TMF on this issue as liberaly as the rest of the media may seem to allow. The risk is just to damn high.

Someday the world may get so liberal that we can say 'who cares?' and let things fall as they will regarding posts. But we are not there.

Max, I do hope you shall resider your leaving. I've always valued your contributions, and continue to do so, though you may not agree with all my positions. Perhaps now that you have some more insight into why I have to take certian postures your choice may change also.

Be well,
Myriads

Tron

 

[Mitchell]

A couple of people in the chat tonight, (Who I wont name because that would be against rules and wrong of me to do) made me feel terrible disdain for attempting to justify the image in Krokus signature. While I have already said that Iam not a religious Jew, people here need to realize that what may be considered a symbol of peace by certain people, is considered to be a symbol of war or prejudice by other people. No Jewish person, and many Christians I know as well, would simply brush off the swastika as being a benign symbol of peace. The fact that Hitler borrowed it is not a justification. SIX MILLION PEOPLE were killed by members baring that symbol. This is no small matter. I cannot control as to what forum rules are, or whether the mods will allow it to stand or not, but I will go on the record by saying that I feel it is wrong to allow such a symbol. If someone wanted to convey "peace" as was justified to me, why not symbolize peace with the famous peace symbol of the 60's, instead of a symbol used by war mongers who were murderers? I get chills of disgust down my spine whenever I see the swastika displayed, even in movies, and for a site that screams "ban" to someone who would go against a "Golden Rule" by attacking another member, I find it hypocritical to think that people should think this is acceptable. As I said, I cannot control what the mods ultimate decision is, but I will go on record strongly as saying that ANY symbol used to either symbolize hate, or that means hate, is wrong and should not be allowed in such a diverse community, no matter what the justification!
This being said, I again state my agreement on the minor issue. It is a very, very sensitive issue both morally and legally, and needs not to be taken lightly. I stated my reasons for this earlier, and if it means protecting the site from legal issues or shutdown, then I think they need to enforce this issue for the greater good.
People, we all need to realize that there are many diverse groups here. Gays, Lesbians, Bi-sexuals, Jews, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Christians, etc. No one is going to be happy all of the time, but when it comes to issues of judgement, predjudice, and senstivity, let's use a little common sense. Material offensive to any particular group or sexual orientation should be closely scrutinized and unacceptable. Again, Iam not trumpeting the issue of the Swastika as the "Defending Jew", Iam doing so as a general issue of what it represented in a major part of our history! I do not feel Iam being "small minded" as I was accused. Those who did so should step back, and think how they would feel if a symbol of hatred toward their group was posted here, and how they would feel if their relatives had been killed, and such a symbol was promoted here. End of Sermon.

Mitch

 

[venray]

Max, I have sent you a PM with my thoughts on all of this...

I hope you have the opportunity to read it....🙂


Ray

 

[Armpit_licker]

You guy's are missing the point.... It wasn't like Krokus had a swastika sign alone in his sig. It was a movie character people. It was a natzi guy who turned his life around for the better and at the end wasn't a racist anymore.... That is all it was, you people are making it out to be more then it is.

 

[Dave2112]

Not to mention the point that Krokus's sig wasn't the damn point of the thread! Start another one for that if you wish. This is about Max's decision. Please, let us have yet another thread where people harp on one point that has nothing to do with anything until we're all sick of looking at it.

Get this thread back on track.

 

[Armpit_licker]

Not to mention the point that Krokus's sig wasn't the damn point of the thread! Start another one for that if you wish. This is about Max's decision. Please, let us have yet another thread where people harp on one point that has nothing to do with anything until we're all sick of looking at it.

Get this thread back on track.

Dave, I guess you are talking to me here..... How is Krokus sig not the point or at least part of the point of this thread??? I mean read Max original post, he clearly called out the sig of Krokus..

Half of the post in this thread are on Krokus signature... I feel it's a major part of this thread... I just don't think it's fair as many people here have not actually seen the sig but are hearing how Kro has a swastika sign in his sig when it wasn't the case. It was a movie character and I feel that needs to be known here.

Yes, this is about Max decision, but the sig was part of his decision....

Again, hopefully Max you can reconsider.... I mean if you leave the foot people will over run us for sure..🙁