#notips movement!

[Flatfoot]

All of my employees who worked the last shift last night made good tips. Guess the movement is failing lol

Perhaps it serves as a reminder to appropriately show gratitude for good customer service. 😉

 

[WorkInProgress]

Maybe you can make a case that the restaurants should pay the waiters a full wage instead of leaving it to the customers to pay them with tips, but the fact of the matter is, being a waiter or a bartender isn't wage work: it's commission sales. If a whole evening's worth of customers failed to tip, the waiter would go home with next to nothing. The only difference between this kind of commission sales and any other is that the customer is expected to pay the commission, and there's an honor system. So when you don't tip, you are, in a moral and ethical sense, stealing. It's a mistake to think of a tip as a bonus. A tip is the waiter's livelihood.

Comparing yourselves with Rosa Parks is even more despicable.

 

[duderino84]

So when you don't tip, you are, in a moral and ethical sense, stealing. It's a mistake to think of a tip as a bonus. A tip is the waiter's livelihood.

Ok, I'm pretty tolerant of BS, and I try to tip well, but this takes the cake. How in the hell am I stealing from anyone if I pay my damn check?! When, exactly is enough REALLY enough? Should we double tip? How about triple tip? I mean, after all, we're just putting those waiters/waitresses out on the street, aren't we? So when I order my burger deluxe and drink, I should put down $25, just to make it easy (the base number I tipped off was just $14, just FYI)??

No, I'm sorry, gratitude translates to thanks/appreciation, and in its contribution to a check, I think I tip plenty to a wait staff for bringing me a drink and plate of food.

After a certain point, however, it was THEIR job they chose, and THEIR choice not to continue education to find more than a menial existence, NOT mine! It wasn't ME that shackled them to their job, so why do I have to pay for their poor choice?

 

[meangry]

Ok, I'm pretty tolerant of BS, and I try to tip well, but this takes the cake. How in the hell am I stealing from anyone if I pay my damn check?! When, exactly is enough REALLY enough? Should we double tip? How about triple tip? I mean, after all, we're just putting those waiters/waitresses out on the street, aren't we? So when I order my burger deluxe and drink, I should put down $25, just to make it easy (the base number I tipped off was just $14, just FYI)??

No, I'm sorry, gratitude translates to thanks/appreciation, and in its contribution to a check, I think I tip plenty to a wait staff for bringing me a drink and plate of food.

After a certain point, however, it was THEIR job they chose, and THEIR choice not to continue education to find more than a menial existence, NOT mine! It wasn't ME that shackled them to their job, so why do I have to pay for their poor choice?

Alright.

You've posted on the TMF long enough for certain trends to start to be tracked. Practically every serious or semi serious thread on this forum that you post to is laced with passive-aggressivism. It takes a sentiment of "but I just don't know" or "why should I do this" and it's as though there is a private pity party to be thrown for all the things, big and small, that you either don't understand or choose not to empathize with. This isn't a big deal if it's once and a while...but it is every time.

Every. Time.

The self righteousness in your last paragraph, however, is truly galling. Hey, dude, maybe there are some out there that enjoy the job? Working with people? Maybe those folks are trying to pick themselves up, or they are just trying to carve out a little piece of stability for themselves. Maybe they can't go back to school for any number of reasons. I don't know, and quite frankly, I don't care; your assessment of the value of their job is complete and total bullshit because it equates a lesser being and lesser existence because someone works in food service. It's complete solipsism and spoken as though from someone who has NEVER actually had to soil their hands with customer service.

You're not a child; you're an adult. Act like one.

 

[duderino84]

Alright.

You've posted on the TMF long enough for certain trends to start to be tracked. Practically every serious or semi serious thread on this forum that you post to is laced with passive-aggressivism. It takes a sentiment of "but I just don't know" or "why should I do this" and it's as though there is a private pity party to be thrown for all the things, big and small, that you either don't understand or choose not to empathize with. This isn't a big deal if it's once and a while...but it is every time.

Every. Time.

The self righteousness in your last paragraph, however, is truly galling. Hey, dude, maybe there are some out there that enjoy the job? Working with people? Maybe those folks are trying to pick themselves up, or they are just trying to carve out a little piece of stability for themselves. Maybe they can't go back to school for any number of reasons. I don't know, and quite frankly, I don't care; your assessment of the value of their job is complete and total bullshit because it equates a lesser being and lesser existence because someone works in food service. It's complete solipsism and spoken as though from someone who has NEVER actually had to soil their hands with customer service.

You're not a child; you're an adult. Act like one.

No, see, I don't criminalize someone because of the choice they make. What if someone can't afford the tip? If you love the job, great, but don't dare tell me I'm "stealing" when it was their choice to work for the place. And if it's such a problem? Fix the fucking menu. Because I don't hear "you're shorting the establishment" when I pay my fucking bill. Why not get a second job? Sign up for one class at school instead of ten? Get a title like a certification if you believe you are owed so much for your abilities elsewhere.

But don't fucking tell me I stole from someone when they've made their choice. There are limits was my point. Tipping I believe is just a glorified competition to see who can look better than the next person. And frankly, you know fuckall about my job experiences, and you aren't going to hear about them here.

Go judge someone else's writing, prick.

 

[meangry]

No, see, I don't criminalize someone because of the choice they make. What if someone can't afford the tip? If you love the job, great, but don't dare tell me I'm "stealing" when it was their choice to work for the place. And if it's such a problem? Fix the fucking menu. Because I don't hear "you're shorting the establishment" when I pay my fucking bill. Why not get a second job? Sign up for one class at school instead of ten? Get a title like a certification if you believe you are owed so much for your abilities elsewhere.

But don't fucking tell me I stole from someone when they've made their choice. There are limits was my point. Tipping I believe is just a glorified competition to see who can look better than the next person. And frankly, you know fuckall about my job experiences, and you aren't going to hear about them here.

Go judge someone else's writing, prick.

The response you took umbrage with stated that it was moral and ethical, not criminal. You're inserting criminal. Nobody else did.

And, on top of that, you're saying "but what if I can't afford to tip?" and then blaming the workers and the food service industry for pay or...to be quite honest, I don't know, because you took the pity party train straight to blame everyone else but myself town. How's about this; how about if you can't tip, you don't go out and eat. Why don't you have enough to tip? Can't you get a second job? It's nobody else's fault but your own that you can't tip, so maybe you should pick yourself up by the bootstraps and get out of living such a menial, worthless existence by bettering your station in life, which is vital considering the fact that you're so cash strapped you can't even leave a tip for servers when it is the socially accepted custom of modern society.

Don't come around blaming an entire service sector and mask your own shortcomings and then push off on it all. You came in here passing all sorts of misguided judgments on people for the sake of ego. This is an internet forum; if you're going to come in and say stuff like this, be prepared to deal with people who disagree and smash you for it. The gentle snowflake response went out the window when you took the service industry to task while trying to derive sympathy with the sentiment "but what if I don't have enough to tip?"

 

[duderino84]

The response you took umbrage with stated that it was moral and ethical, not criminal. You're inserting criminal. Nobody else did.

And, on top of that, you're saying "but what if I can't afford to tip?" and then blaming the workers and the food service industry for pay or...to be quite honest, I don't know, because you took the pity party train straight to blame everyone else but myself town. How's about this; how about if you can't tip, you don't go out and eat. Why don't you have enough to tip? Can't you get a second job? It's nobody else's fault but your own that you can't tip, so maybe you should pick yourself up by the bootstraps and get out of living such a menial, worthless existence by bettering your station in life, which is vital considering the fact that you're so cash strapped you can't even leave a tip for servers when it is the socially accepted custom of modern society.

Don't come around blaming an entire service sector and mask your own shortcomings and then push off on it all. You came in here passing all sorts of misguided judgments on people for the sake of ego. This is an internet forum; if you're going to come in and say stuff like this, be prepared to deal with people who disagree and smash you for it. The gentle snowflake response went out the window when you took the service industry to task while trying to derive sympathy with the sentiment "but what if I don't have enough to tip?"

Maybe it's you looking through threads with solipsism. I was trying to emphasize with those that may be worse off than myself. Note in my first response I stated I was a generous tipper. And as far as criminal, what do you think a lapse in ethics and morals is? Or the definition of stealing? And if waitering/waitressing is so awful a tip is needed, why do I consistently see 40/50 year old waitresses? My point with the "things they should do" was if it's such a rotten lifestyle, maybe they should take themselves to task, instead of accepting helplessness. You should read carefully. We're done here.

 

[meangry]

Maybe it's you looking through threads with solipsism. I was trying to emphasize with those that may be worse off than myself. Note in my first response I stated I was a generous tipper. And as far as criminal, what do you think a lapse in ethics and morals is? Or the definition of stealing? And if waitering/waitressing is so awful a tip is needed, why do I consistently see 40/50 year old waitresses? My point with the "things they should do" was if it's such a rotten lifestyle, maybe they should take themselves to task, instead of accepting helplessness. You should read carefully. We're done here.

No, actually, we aren't. This is also a consistent trend from you; faced with opposition to some belief you have, you posture up poorly, flitting at any little thread that seemingly is available, and then dust yourself off.

Personally, I don't care what kind of tipper you are; you came in here playing the poor me card about people not having enough to tip and then putting an entire service industry on blast for any number of stereotypical reasons just short of calling them losers who should be happy with where they are at, wallowing about in their self made and self imposed mediocrity. You take waiters and waitresses, you take restaurants to task, but absolve those who don't tip because, well...see...that's the thing; you never quite get to that point. You never get to explaining why the people buying food who don't have the money to chip in a bit for a tip (or choose not to) for delivery or for serving your needs at a restaurant get the free pass, especially considering the fact that tipping is well established as a modern societal norm.

Don't point to anecdotal evidence like "if it's so bad why do I see so many 40 and 50 year old servers then" when you have absolutely no empirical evidence to support it. You going to restaurants and diners and asking these people how long they worked there, or why they work there, or their wages, or any of that? I doubt that. Base level assumptions on quality of work or reason for work based on age is extremely pointless in this thread.

And the leap to criminality from the thing you responded is just that, a leap. A giant one at that. Then again, it all plays into slippery slope rhetoric, and that's another hallmark of your posting style.

Whatever point you had was heavily obscured by your need to come in and showcase how YOU feel on the topic, reaching for YOUR experiences and casting people in the food service industry under the same blanket statement YOU created for them. It's the world exactly how YOU see it, and it never is any different, so it would seem. You reach wide and far to corral these things you believe. You make some leap from the thing you are responding to that is saying that tips are part of a waiter/waitress/delivery driver livelihood by being all "well how far is too far I mean should I pay 25 bucks in total for a 14 meal where do we draw the line?" Well, we draw the line when something like this example is looked at for what it is; devoid of common sense and what is being asked for in the given environment.

 

[duderino84]

No, actually, we aren't. This is also a consistent trend from you; faced with opposition to some belief you have, you posture up poorly, flitting at any little thread that seemingly is available, and then dust yourself off.

Personally, I don't care what kind of tipper you are; you came in here playing the poor me card about people not having enough to tip and then putting an entire service industry on blast for any number of stereotypical reasons just short of calling them losers who should be happy with where they are at, wallowing about in their self made and self imposed mediocrity. You take waiters and waitresses, you take restaurants to task, but absolve those who don't tip because, well...see...that's the thing; you never quite get to that point. You never get to explaining why the people buying food who don't have the money to chip in a bit for a tip (or choose not to) for delivery or for serving your needs at a restaurant get the free pass, especially considering the fact that tipping is well established as a modern societal norm.

Don't point to anecdotal evidence like "if it's so bad why do I see so many 40 and 50 year old servers then" when you have absolutely no empirical evidence to support it. You going to restaurants and diners and asking these people how long they worked there, or why they work there, or their wages, or any of that? I doubt that. Base level assumptions on quality of work or reason for work based on age is extremely pointless in this thread.

And the leap to criminality from the thing you responded is just that, a leap. A giant one at that. Then again, it all plays into slippery slope rhetoric, and that's another hallmark of your posting style.

Whatever point you had was heavily obscured by your need to come in and showcase how YOU feel on the topic, reaching for YOUR experiences and casting people in the food service industry under the same blanket statement YOU created for them. It's the world exactly how YOU see it, and it never is any different, so it would seem. You reach wide and far to corral these things you believe. You make some leap from the thing you are responding to that is saying that tips are part of a waiter/waitress/delivery driver livelihood by being all "well how far is too far I mean should I pay 25 bucks in total for a 14 meal where do we draw the line?" Well, we draw the line when something like this example is looked at for what it is; devoid of common sense and what is being asked for in the given environment.

Whatever man, go fuck yourself with your assumptions. Congrats, you win teh interwebz.

And "we"? Holy fuck dude I would love to hear this shit.

 

[TheTickleMonster]

I just woke up so I'm still too tired to read everything you two said between each other, but I did read the first stuff and must agree with duder. It's not stealing to not tip. Although you should tip someone and you are expected to do so, that's not actually part of the check. If you skip out on the check, that's stealing. If you don't tip, that can make you seem like a bad person, but it's not stealing. It does suck for the waitresses and waiters when you don't tip because they don't make minimum wage because the government thinks people always actually tip them so they let employers pay them less than minimum way which is bs but if you don't tip, it's still not stealing.

 

[TheTickleMonster]

Surely this is a hoax. I always tip at least 30%. Fuck people who stiff waitstaff.

30% that's a pretty big tip. I'm sure they appreciate that.

 

[TMF Jeff]

There's nothing wrong with this discussion getting heated, and even argumentative.

But name-calling is taking it too far, so please dial it back.

 

[DontAskJusTckle]

I generally tip 20% in restaurants. When calculating, I round upwards so it's usually a little over 20%. I also tip hair stylists and masseuses about 30% each. I don't do it out of a sense of obligation, but rather as a positive gesture of good will contributions to my fellow man.

If I encounter a place that requires a gratuity, like Massage Envy, I turn around and leave. It's my belief that tipping should be voluntary. I'll not be forced into it.

 

[C.A.B.]

The tradition of tipping also serves a function of indirect feedback for the restauranteur to understand how staff are performing. Assuming the patrons are tipping as a reflection of service, the more professional wait staff will be quite pleased and the foot-draggers will moan and complain about their tips. Hopefully, better tips are an incentive to perform wonderfully, if not adequately.

I always tip good staff generously and that gesture returns to me the next time I dine. If I am treated poorly, my tip will reflect that experience.

I also tip valets and hotel staff handsomely up-front, and they are happy to go the extra mile to treat me to special attention and excellent care (and word spreads quickly among other staff). There is nothing wrong with a little friendly bribery; everybody wins.

 

[Mitchell]

I've always considered myself a pretty good tipper. (20% in most cases, as I've posted, and up to 25% sometimes). After seeing how some people on the forum say they tip,. up to 30%, I'm now feeling that maybe I'm "stinting" a little bit, on the tips, and thinking I should increase my tips to between 25% and 30% in most or all cases.

One situation that seems to average out to.. about 27% for me.. I order the same dish, usually, from the Chinese call in place near my apartment. It always seems to come out to $7.30 for lunch. I give him $10, and tell him to keep the change, so 27%. I'd say that's a decent tip. If I do dinner from this place, same dish, its $9.30, because a bit bigger portion, and I give $12, so again. about a 25 to 27% tip.

 

[desdemona]

After a certain point, however, it was THEIR job they chose, and THEIR choice not to continue education to find more than a menial existence, NOT mine! It wasn't ME that shackled them to their job, so why do I have to pay for their poor choice?

Or they enjoy their choice. I waited tables occasionally in 1987. The federal minimum cash wage back then was $2.13 per hour. We were expected to "claim" up to the equivalent of what was then minimum wage ($3.85). Current minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. For waitstaff, it varies by state (the range appears to be from $2.33 to $8.00 in California), but the federal cash wage is still $2.13 per hour which is used by some states. Back then, I was 16 years old, so having unclaimed tips didn't really mean that much as I got back the majority of my income tax from the government. But if I were trying to make up the difference between $2.13 and minimum wage nowadays at a sandwich place, that would be difficult to do (working dayshift anyway).

Just for amusement, here's how the waitress from Studs Terkel's Working explains why she has to be a waitress... (and I don't understand how to embed youtube videos with their new format...sorry) - the great Rita Moreno puts her personal twist on this classic:

http://youtu.be/T8vELaF3b1g

 

[duderino84]

Or they enjoy their choice. I waited tables occasionally in 1987. The federal minimum cash wage back then was $2.13 per hour. We were expected to "claim" up to the equivalent of what was then minimum wage ($3.85). Current minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. For waitstaff, it varies by state (the range appears to be from $2.33 to $8.00 in California), but the federal cash wage is still $2.13 per hour which is used by some states. Back then, I was 16 years old, so having unclaimed tips didn't really mean that much as I got back the majority of my income tax from the government. But if I were trying to make up the difference between $2.13 and minimum wage nowadays at a sandwich place, that would be difficult to do (working dayshift anyway).

Just for amusement, here's how the waitress from Studs Terkel's Working explains why she has to be a waitress... (and I don't understand how to embed youtube videos with their new format...sorry) - the great Rita Moreno puts her personal twist on this classic:

http://youtu.be/T8vELaF3b1g

It's fine to enjoy a job, I'm just saying, take gratuity for what it's worth; a monetary expression of appreciation. If that'll make or break someone doing it as a career......maybe all other avenues of "making it" aren't exhausted.

 

[BrightEyes1082]

It's fine to enjoy a job, I'm just saying, take gratuity for what it's worth; a monetary expression of appreciation. If that'll make or break someone doing it as a career......maybe all other avenues of "making it" aren't exhausted.

Restaurants don't pay that little because it isn't a way to make a living. They pay that little because it is expected that,
unless you get completely, utterly shitty service, that you, the customer, will leave a tip. It is expected. If a movement
such as this actually caught on, restaurants would have to pay a higher wage and add on a mandatory tip to the bill,
much like many restaurants do for large parties (usually 18% with the option to tip more, but not less).

The bottom line is, wait staff work hard so that they can earn their tips, but customers are still responsible for leaving
the tips. If you don't tip at a restaurant because you don't feel you owe someone a tip, then you're just an asshole and
you don't belong in a restaurant to begin with. (I mean "you" in a general sense, not you personally, unless of course this
is how you feel.)

 

[duderino84]

Restaurants don't pay that little because it isn't a way to make a living. They pay that little because it is expected that,
unless you get completely, utterly shitty service, that you, the customer, will leave a tip. It is expected. If a movement
such as this actually caught on, restaurants would have to pay a higher wage and add on a mandatory tip to the bill,
much like many restaurants do for large parties (usually 18% with the option to tip more, but not less).

The bottom line is, wait staff work hard so that they can earn their tips, but customers are still responsible for leaving
the tips. If you don't tip at a restaurant because you don't feel you owe someone a tip, then you're just an asshole and
you don't belong in a restaurant to begin with. (I mean "you" in a general sense, not you personally, unless of course this
is how you feel.)

So considering how much restaurants make, you don't feel fucked over whatsoever by what they're unwilling to pay? Would a restaurant ever compensate you for shitty tipping?

 

[BrightEyes1082]

So considering how much restaurants make, you don't feel fucked over whatsoever by what they're unwilling to pay? Would a restaurant ever compensate you for shitty tipping?

For the sake of this argument, let's set aside the fact that restaurants have very small profit margins.

If I felt so fucked over by a restaurant that I had a problem leaving a tip to an employee
who served me and made $2/hour, I would simply stay away from restaurants.

I'm not sure what you mean by asking if a restaurant would compensate me for shitty tipping.
Are you asking if they would compensate their wait staff if someone failed to tip? If so, the
answer is no, they don't make enough money for that.

 

[duderino84]

For the sake of this argument, let's set aside the fact that restaurants have very small profit margins.

If I felt so fucked over by a restaurant that I had a problem leaving a tip to an employee
who served me and made $2/hour, I would simply stay away from restaurants.

I'm not sure what you mean by asking if a restaurant would compensate me for shitty tipping.
Are you asking if they would compensate their wait staff if someone failed to tip? If so, the
answer is no, they don't make enough money for that.

Ok....how can restaurants have small profit margins when during the average week they're packed?


The question I asked you had nothing to do with the customer, just the employee; as I've already stated multiple times, I tip well.

Lastly, I assumed you were a wait staff member. But considering how most decent restaurants get stuffed with people on a daily basis (I live in jersey, half the state may as well BE restaurants), I find it hard to believe there is no money to be made. Obviously food is one expense, as well as paying for the property, upkeep of furniture, etc. I just don't see how if twenty families of four filled a restaurant each hour for 16 hours each day (given the base number being at least $40 for a standard bill, my calculations come out to 12,800 a day, as 20 families am hour would come out to $800) that there would be "no money" for employees. Something just doesn't add up.

 

[TMF Jeff]

Ok....how can restaurants have small profit margins when during the average week they're packed?

Profit margin is not the same as profit. The margin is the difference between how much it costs you to run a business, and how much that business makes. So for example, a restaurant can be full, but if they're only going to keep 10% of the money being spent while the rest goes to food, rent, exployees etc, then its still a business thats barely getting by, regardless of how busy. Restaurant margins are higher than 10% I think, but they are notoriously thin and hard to manage.

Also over 50% of restaurants fail in the first three years (the number was thought to be closer to 90% but new research has lowered the number - http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/restfail.htm)

Let's say they have four waiters going per shift, 2 shifts a day. If its 6 hour shifts, thats a total of 72 hours of employee time. If they had to pay them 8 dollars an hour instead of 2, that would be an additonal five hundred dollars a DAY. Most restaurants do not have room for another $3500/week in their budget, whether they're packed or not.

And that's a small place with four waiters. The bigger and more successful your place, the higher that number will be. A really high end restaurant with higher prices is probably already paying their waiters more, because they need to be selective. But now they've probably got 150 employee hours a day so theyre looking at more like 8 grand a week extra, maybe more because the waiters tips would be higher in a place like that, so the restaurant would have more that they had to compensate for. Times 52 weeks is 400,000 dollars a year. I doubt many high end restaurants are so profitable they could throw four hundred thousand dollars away.

 

[duderino84]

Profit margin is not the same as profit. The margin is the difference between how much it costs you to run a business, and how much that business makes. So for example, a restaurant can be full, but if they're only going to keep 10% of the money being spent while the rest goes to food, rent, exployees etc, then its still a business thats barely getting by, regardless of how busy. Restaurant margins are higher than 10% I think, but they are notoriously thin and hard to manage.

Also over 50% of restaurants fail in the first three years (the number was thought to be closer to 90% but new research has lowered the number - http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/restfail.htm)

Let's say they have four waiters going per shift, 2 shifts a day. If its 6 hour shifts, thats a total of 72 hours of employee time. If they had to pay them 8 dollars an hour instead of 2, that would be an additonal five hundred dollars a DAY. Most restaurants do not have room for another $3500/week in their budget, whether they're packed or not.

And that's a small place with four waiters. The bigger and more successful your place, the higher that number will be. A really high end restaurant with higher prices is probably already paying their waiters more, because they need to be selective. But now they've probably got 150 employee hours a day so theyre looking at more like 8 grand a week extra, maybe more because the waiters tips would be higher in a place like that, so the restaurant would have more that they had to compensate for. Times 52 weeks is 400,000 dollars a year. I doubt many high end restaurants are so profitable they could throw four hundred thousand dollars away.

Now I'm beginning to see it.

 

[Flatfoot]

Jeff beat me to it. I was about to dig up a Darden balance sheet and income statement to show you some hard numbers. 😛

 

[Crackity Jones]

Waiting staff get full minimum wage here (£6.31/hr or ~$10.60/hr) and restaurants manage to stay open and staff are still generally polite and helpful- they still get tips of course, it's just not their livelihood.