Presidential debate

[coloman]

It sounds like most people don't mind a good discussion even if it has been heated at times so I will keep posting my opinions and viewpoints right up to and maybe even a couple of days past the election. Even if Kerry wins the third debate the only thing that will prove is that he is a smooth debater. He should be good at it because he has been doing it for over twenty years the reason being that long term politicians like him do it as a part of their job. Bush was a business man and had to make decisions in order to stay in business. I would rather see someone in the Oval Office that is not afraid to make decisions than someone who is a smooth and polished debater. Like I said in an earlier post it would be nice if the politicians could find a happy medium and work together but realistically we know it will be a cold day in Hell if that ever happens. Some people may have taken offense to some of the comments that have been posted so far or even been outraged by them but that's as far as it went. By now just about everyone has made up their mind who they will vote for on November 2 anyway and nothing that gets brought up in this thread will make them change their minds or their point of view on this topic. Our viewpoints and the way we express them won't harm anybody or cause anybody to change the way they lead their everyday lives and they certainly won't change the course of world history or anything that drastic so lets keep this discussion going at least through the first few days of November. If any person no longer wants to be a part of the discussion all they have to do is drop out of it and refrain from making further comments on it. It looks like it will be a very close election anyway no matter what kind of comments or personal viewpoints get posted on this thread so by all means let's keep it open for as long as the people who view this forum want it to remain open.

 

[alf1]

Bush was a business man and had to make decisions in order to stay in business. I would rather see someone in the Oval Office that is not afraid to make decisions than someone who is a smooth and polished debater.

Bush taking decisions ??? Yah he was drunk all time he didn't knew what he was doing as simple as that.
Also nothing says that Bush takes his decisions all by himself think of that.

 

[MayDay1]

Bush was a good business man. Every company he ever owned went bankrupt. Wait a minute..........

 

[nessonite1]

Thats what seperates us from the "lesser" forum goers in my opinion. The ability to recognize when things are getting to heated and when to cool it down is more of an asset than you may realize.
Picking a president is a nasty job. Did we all read the Aesop's fable that taught us you can't please all of the people al of the time? We all have varied ideas as to what our own utopian society would look like.
While a "lively" discussion of our different opinions does us no lasting harm I still don't see it as a terribly productive persuit. Nobody has a chance of changing someone's opinion to match their own and it just degenerates into endless bickering.
As yet this thread has not reached the stage necessary to close it, nor has any thread that I can recall, so unless the OP requests it, it will stay open.
Just please use common sense, be respectful, and don't kill eachother.
*steps off of soapbox*

 

[Kalamos]

Excellent. Just don't ever stop and don't ever settle. That's all I ask.

Allow me a brief OT [off topic] post.

Thanks for you appreciation man. 😀
I hope I won't stop any soon, and to tell te truth, posting here really boosted my technique and all.

I learnt how to colourize my pics just to post finished pics here; before I never bothered, so all my pre-2004 pics were nothing more than [elaborate] sketches. 😀

EOOT. 😉

[EndOfOffTopic]

 

[coloman]

A note to alf: How can you say Bush was drunk all the time and didn't know what he was doing. Where is your proof of that, if you have any you don't say what it is. Or are you just blowing smoke?
A note to MayDay: The baseball team that Bush owned is still in business, while it might be a professional sports team it's still a business so there goes your argument on that topic.
That ought to give both of you something to think about and I am sure reply to. It won't change who MayDay and I are going to vote for in the upcoming election or our viewpoints on this thread but it will give us something to argue about which should be a lot of fun for at least the three of us and maybe more of the followers of this forum as well.

 

[alf1]

A note to alf: How can you say Bush was drunk all the time and didn't know what he was doing. Where is your proof of that, if you have any you don't say what it is. Or are you just blowing smoke?

Well at least i get your attention 😉
Bush admitted that he had problems with alcohol and said that he stopped with it thanx to god himself.

 

[kevin raiders]

It really bothers me when people are getting upset that the top 10% percent of the population is getting a tax break when they are paying over 90% of the taxes in this country. Over half the population including me , just graduated college, don't even pay taxes. If you don't believe me please verify this for yourself.
The people that give people jobs are the "evil" rich. When they get a tax break do you think they just go hide the money in a jar and bury it. No, they reinvest it into their companies, which creates jobs, they put money into the stock market, which creates jobs, or they buy a vacation house, which creates jobs. What I love about this country is no matter where you come from, lower middle class, if you try your hardest, you will succeed. You can always opt to be jealous and complain about the unfairness or you can get off your butt and make some money for yourself.

 

[august spies]

"What I love about this country is no matter where you come from, lower middle class, if you try your hardest, you will succeed."


i heard the sky is falling.. watch out!

 

[kevin raiders]

What's stopping you? You live in a society where you can choose to be productive and make money, or you can choose to be lazy and not.

 

[august spies]

see saying poor people are poor because they want to be and rich people are (become) rich because they want to be is the dumbest capitalist myth ever invented.

If george bush wasnt a spoiled lazy rich kid, he would be lying in a gutter somewhere. for ever one of him, there are millions of people lacking the funds and the enviroment to attain all the opportunities available to them. from healthcare to education.

 

[kevin raiders]

spolied, I'm sure he is. But saying someone that has worked hard enough to become president of the United States of America is just past ridiculous and well on the way to insanity. It would be stupid to say that it is just as easy for someone who is born poor to become succesful as someone who is born rich. But this country was made to be a capitalistic country so the opportunities are there. No one is born to a title of nobility or servitude. Any person can work hard and rise up in his life. And barring a physical or mental illness there is no reason someone can't start somewhere and work his way up.

 

[coloman]

Note to punk: President Bush may be rich but millions of other people in this country are too. If he was lazy he would never would have had the drive and desire to become the owner of the Texas Rangers baseball team and be elected the President of the United States. Rich people don't prevent the rest of us from lacking the money or the oppourtunity to place ouselves in the right environment to get everything we want out of life.Those are just excuses people make up because they think society owes them something and that they shouldn't have to work hard to obtain those things.

 

[Kalamos]

Note to punk: President Bush may be rich but millions of other people in this country are too. If he was lazy he would never would have had the drive and desire to become the owner of the Texas Rangers baseball team and be elected the President of the United States. Rich people don't prevent the rest of us from lacking the money or the oppourtunity to place ouselves in the right environment to get everything we want out of life.Those are just excuses people make up because they think society owes them something and that they shouldn't have to work hard to obtain those things.

Let me point out being son to a former president maybe helped him a bit.

I can try as hard as I can, but I'll never be elected governor in California - and I'm as all-american as Mr. Schwarzenegger. 😉

But, hey, don't take me too seriously.
I just draw small pictures. I leave the bigger picture alone. 😉

 

[jrubicante]

Wow. This thread doubled in length in the last 24 hours it seems.

Ok, I just flipped through all these pages of posts and someone said that I claimed that Edwards beat Cheney in the VP debate. I never claimed that. All I was saying is that Cheney did not answer for the actions of the Bush administration.

That person suggested that Cheney and Edwards were "blow for blow". I totally agree with that. Edwards made blows at the injustices committed by the Bush administration, and Cheney made blows at the record of Kerry and Edwards. That is, in fact, going back and forth. You could even say that the debate was pretty even. But you cannot say that Cheney gave any answers justifying the decisions of the Bush administration. That was the point of my comment, not that Edwards 'won'.

Oh, and there was Vlad making the assumption that I support the Democratic party and I'm very much against Bush. Well, I WILL be voting for Kerry. But it's not because I support liberal causes or I'm a fan of the Mass. Senator. It's because I just have a chip on my shoulder towards corruption in general and I don't feel Bush is qualified to be commander and chief, given I've been watching this administration very carefully since 9/11. So there's my stance, I can't state it any clearer than that.

I liked what I saw in the second Presidential debate. Kerry looked composed and Presidential, while Bush appeared angry and flustered. Not exactly what an incumbant should look like during a debate in a close race. I didn't have the opportunity to watch the whole thing but I did read the complete transcript on msnbc several times.

Anyone heard about the whole "wired for sound" scandal? Some people think that Bush had a spy device on that allowed him to receive answers from a hidden agent. Go to http://www.isbushwired.com if you don't believe me. Yes, they have a website about it ALREADY.
I think it's kind of funny, myself. I don't believe that Bush was cheating; I am skeptical of all the "evidence" on that site.

I'm looking forward to the third debate. It's supposed to be domestic issues. But you know the topic will be Iraq. Here's how:
MOD: America's economy is going down. Costs of living are going up. Why?
BUSH: We had to go to war on terror. Wars cost money.
KERRY: This is the first American war that has lost jobs and not created them. This president has... (etc.)

The above are all my opinions.

BTW, upper body tickling OWNZ lower body in every way.

 

[MayDay1]

A note to MayDay: The baseball team that Bush owned is still in business, while it might be a professional sports team it's still a business so there goes your argument on that topic.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!........Oops. You were serious. Ahem.....

The team you are refering to is, of course, the Texas Rangers. Did you know he bought the team using a deal that took land using tax-payer money? Yeah, he did. And let's pretend he did bankrupt the team. Judging how MLB has treated the Expos, the league would have just taken over the team, maybe go through a couple years in limbo, then sell the franchise to the highest bidding city. Even then, let's pretend even more that the franchise thrived under Bush. This would make him one for gawd knows how many with all those oil companies he's wrecked that daddy gave him. He's still a dumbass any way you slice it.

Do you know what his biggest move while owner of the Rangers was? Trading Sammy Sosa. Learning is fun!

Oh! Before I forget! Off topic once again but still it needs to be said. Upperbody tickling has NOTHING on lower body tickling. Bam!

 

[coloman]

A note to MayDay:Yes I know the team he bought was the Texas Rangers. If he bought the team the way you said he did he would not be the first owner of a pro team to sway the taxpayers into using taxpayer money to help fianance the team they own or the stadium they play in. The Expos never did draw enough fans in Montreal and the league saved it from going belly up until an owner could be found and the team moved to a city that will support it. Washington DC will do just that despite any complaints you might hear from the Orioles. Player trades are usually done by the GM of a team although I am sure the owner is kept aware of them by the GM. As far as that goes I believe Sammy Sosa went from the Rangers to the White Sox and then was traded to the Cubs so I guess he's not the only owner in the league who traded a player he should have kept. Whew!, now that we have that hashed out if as YOU say "He's a dumbass anyway you slice it" how come he owns a large and profitable cattle ranch in Texas and is the President of the United States too. Besides that I don't think the voters of this country have ever been naive enough to elect a "dumbass" President. By the way President Bush did graduate from Yale University and you don't get into and graduate from Ivy League schools if you are a "dumbass" no matter how rich a family you come from.

 

[august spies]

the entire point of yale is to let rich dumbass like bush get in because of who they are. there are millions of people more worther than bush (intellectually as well as drive) that should have filled his space.

This fact is totally to the contrary of the way you see the world. where people like bush are the hard workers and get where they are because of "work" and people who actually work for a living, or get laid off because some corrupt capitalist wants to exploit children in the third world to makes shoes are the lazy ones.

Well we need to define lazy and work.. to me forcing children to make shoes and shipping jobs overseas where there are no labor laws while you sit back and reap the profits is the epitomy of lazy.

This society is set up so there is no class mobility. that is why the gap between rich and poor is growing, and that is why the rich own and control most of everything and also why the poor are so much more numerous than the rich.

Now this is not to say there arnt small execptions to the rule, but they pale in comparison to the reality.

 

[nessonite1]

You're not furthering your cause any by such ignorant remarks, punk. Anyone with a basic grasp of reality would understand that there is no way BUT for the poor to outnumber the rich. Can you honestly picture a world where every man woman and child is wealthy? You're talking about global comunism (and really wealthy isnt the word for that).
Also to say that a poor person has NO chance of becoming succesful is also bull, pure and unfiltered. There is a reason that the poor get state funded health care as well as free schooling by way of financial aid and scholorships. Yeah it's harder to work your way up than to be born high in the food chain...but to say that with the proper motivation, hard work, and talent that it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone to make something of their lives is just plain ignorant and reeks of "life wasnt fair to me waaaahhhh"

 

[coloman]

You need to wake up and smell the coffee punk. The Ivy league schools offer the best in college education in this country and while they are very costly they have high admission standards and DON'T allow "dumbass" students to attend them. As far as the rest of your comments go they don't amount to a blessed thing and some of them are even controdictary and that's putting it mildly. You are the one who needs to figure out what reality is and then you won't make the kind of statements you do.

 

[august spies]

if i can remember bush had a C average if thats a high admission standard whats an A average?

I dont know what reality is?

Are there not 2 billion people living on two dollars a day or less? thats reality

Ness thinks its ignorant to say that the poor vastly outnumber the rich and that the gap between the two is growing at an immense rate.

i dont expect to be popular for stating such elementrey truthts but they have to be out there.

Ness also says that the there needs to be more poor than rich... lets take one case study: mexico, in mexico almost half of the population is at subsistence level, however the guy who controls the corn market is on the list of billionares... but hey nothing can change right? sigh...

oh and ness i hate to nitpick because it seems petty but when you put words in my mouth to attack me i have to defent myself, in my last post is specifically stated that there were, as in most cases, exceptions to the rule. however they are greatly inflated by capitalists and they pale in comparison to the reality. so for the fact check i never said there is NO chance (as you put it)..

as for fact check on stats

43 milllion american and 14 million children have no healthcare

i would be surprised if the percent of people getting a good education for free is higher than 10%. i duno about the rest of you but my tuition keeps going up, i work full time and have no healthcare.

no that this is said you can take two posistions on reality, one keep propagating the myth of vast social mobility which serves the interests of the rich, or two help the majority of the people in this world get the things they deseve, a doctor when they are sick, a book when they want to learn, clean water and food when they want to drink and eat, and proper sanitation.. it can be done.

 

[MayDay1]

So under the logic "he's not the only one to use tax payer money to buy the team" then that makes it ok. That means that I can go to my neighbor's house, ransack the place, and claim they stole my car stereo when not only I have no evidence but I really don't know who stole it in the first place. And when the cops come to arrest me, I'll just say "But Bush is invading Iraq under the same circumstances so I should be let off the hook." After all, if they arrest me, then they are "crooked cops", right? Just because other owners do it doesn't make it acceptable.

Owning a ranch is not exactly grueling when....get this...YOU HIRE PEOPLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE RANCH FOR YOU! If it were left entirely up to him to run that broken down cow factory it wouldn't be doing so hot.

As far as the "Bush is a dumbass comment" goes, I listened to the second debate Friday. Other than saying stuff like "it's just not credible" or "it won't work" repeatedly as a form of rebuttel (Yeah, solid argument there chief) but he actually tried to use the Dredd Scott case as a recent precident when asked about who he'd put on the Supreme Court. Holy crap. Then the most pompous answer to an honest question came when someone asked what were his three biggest mistakes in the White House were. His answer? "To appointments to a board you've never heard of." Way to make the voters feel small, fuck face. Then he admitted to nothing, like the war is going according to plan. Holy crap again.

Last thought, the voters are not naive enough to vote in a dumbass. The last election was rigged.

Do you read the papers or anything?

 

[jrubicante]

You need to wake up and smell the coffee punk. The Ivy league schools offer the best in college education in this country and while they are very costly they have high admission standards and DON'T allow "dumbass" students to attend them. As far as the rest of your comments go they don't amount to a blessed thing and some of them are even controdictary and that's putting it mildly. You are the one who needs to figure out what reality is and then you won't make the kind of statements you do.

But to be fair, punk does have the right to his own opinion.

 

[MayDay1]

You need to wake up and smell the coffee punk. The Ivy league schools offer the best in college education in this country and while they are very costly they have high admission standards and DON'T allow "dumbass" students to attend them. As far as the rest of your comments go they don't amount to a blessed thing and some of them are even controdictary and that's putting it mildly. You are the one who needs to figure out what reality is and then you won't make the kind of statements you do.

Wow. Who wants to point out the irony in that statement?

 

[coloman]

Like I have said before MayDay you and I don't agree on any of the issues we have argued about and I am positive you and I would have diiferent opinions on anything you cared to mention. As far as the rest of your comments in post #172 and #174 while you are certainly entitlted to you own opinions they are like all the rest of your replys in that you disagree with me but always throw in a long winded self opinionated analasis of everything most of which is a bunch of hot air. The 2000 election was NOT rigged but people like you will never believe it. In closing yes I do read the newspaper everyday and I'd love to see your face if the headline of your November 3 newspaper reads "Bush Wins Second Term in Oval Office".