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- Thread starter Haltickling
- Start date
Anyone who wonders where I dream this shit up can start here. There's more if anyone wants it.
http://bethuneinstitute.org/documents/freeomar.html
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/hea...nford_x_ray.htm
http://www.barhumanrights.org.uk/pd..._or_Revenge.pdf
http://www.srcf.ucam.org/camsaw/blurb.html
http://bethuneinstitute.org/documents/freeomar.html
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/hea...nford_x_ray.htm
http://www.barhumanrights.org.uk/pd..._or_Revenge.pdf
http://www.srcf.ucam.org/camsaw/blurb.html
Are you posting any of this to another website Jim, or are we the only lucky souls? I'd be interested in seeing responses from people who didn't have tickling in common with you. 😛 If you do post on another forum, link me and I may be able to be a part of the converation then.
General rambling:
In the meantim, I think I'll just live in my ill informed little world where life hurts sometimes, it laughs sometimes, and I can ignore the folks who want to stir up things. There are so many places that encourage discourse. There are many places that encourage debate. I don't dig 'em. My mom taught me that peace should not be disturbed to relieve boredom. So, if folks want to rehash history, let them rehash ALL of history. For each finger pointed, point one back at yourself. All in all, I do not find discussion like this on a TK board to be very productive. My apologies for being a part of it. I come here for tickling, and the general topics are a nice break to get to know other people. I don't think running down each others' countries is productive. I dont' want to get to know that kind of person. I suppose it would all be fair in my eyes if you saw Americans on here constantly posting about the horrible things other countries do, but I'm finding a disturbing lack of balance. *shrug* Oh well....I have nothing productive to add to this thread. I suppose this was just a lesson learned. I need to stop reading the crap that just brings folks (others and me) down. I also need not read anymore links that provide me with only partial truths and promote it as gospel. I hate having to really research something just to keep my sanity. It's too much effort fr a tickling board to be honest. My head hurts. Im done.
Enjoy your debate.
Jo, lesson learned.
General rambling:
In the meantim, I think I'll just live in my ill informed little world where life hurts sometimes, it laughs sometimes, and I can ignore the folks who want to stir up things. There are so many places that encourage discourse. There are many places that encourage debate. I don't dig 'em. My mom taught me that peace should not be disturbed to relieve boredom. So, if folks want to rehash history, let them rehash ALL of history. For each finger pointed, point one back at yourself. All in all, I do not find discussion like this on a TK board to be very productive. My apologies for being a part of it. I come here for tickling, and the general topics are a nice break to get to know other people. I don't think running down each others' countries is productive. I dont' want to get to know that kind of person. I suppose it would all be fair in my eyes if you saw Americans on here constantly posting about the horrible things other countries do, but I'm finding a disturbing lack of balance. *shrug* Oh well....I have nothing productive to add to this thread. I suppose this was just a lesson learned. I need to stop reading the crap that just brings folks (others and me) down. I also need not read anymore links that provide me with only partial truths and promote it as gospel. I hate having to really research something just to keep my sanity. It's too much effort fr a tickling board to be honest. My head hurts. Im done.
Enjoy your debate.
Jo, lesson learned.
JoBelle said:
There is a site, yes. It's an EZ Board community called The Peanuts Gang. I've just realised though that it's URL isn't in my new Favourites folder and the EZB search function is temporarily disabled. Until I get a notification e-mail from them, I can't find the damn thing. Sorry bout this, but should have something useful in the next few days. I have the user name Jayce Skywalker. (Original eh?)
JoBelle said:
Jo, check your PM Inbox.
Wow, Jim, take a breath! You're turning green! No wait... never mind.
Now what was it you wanted me to read? The seventy-five posts all seemed to blend together after a while. Jeez, you step away in disgust for one day...
To Hal, I appreciate and respect the complete unapologetic nature of your initial response to me. I would have expected nothing less from you. (I mean that in a respectful way.. by the way, forgive my frequent typos today, I seem to have developed a sleep disorder in the past few days called not being aboe to freakin' sleep, but I felt this thread deserved a few words from me.)
I'm not even going to discuss Guantanamo Bay, Cuba in this post, because we all have facts that contradict one another. I"ll say one thing, then Jo will say another, and Hal will say I'm wrong (which I very well might be) and Jim will come along with an encyclopedic text detailing the many facets of my argument which were factual and the others which were entirely false, followed by someone (possibly me) making a reference to Cuban cigars and president Clinton (notice the strategic capitalization). Cuba is behind me now. I want to talk about patriotism. I am probably going to make a lot of enemies with this post, so as I said before, if you don't want to read this, please skip it and go on to something else.
Now, I was born in the United States of America. I was born in that nation in the latter half of the 20th century. 202 years of American history had occurred prior to my birthday (quick, guess my age!) I went to school in the United States of America; there I learned facts about the birth of America, wherein "Pilgrims" (we weren't told what a Pilgrim was) landed on "Plymouth Rock" (must've hurt) and befriended some "Indians" (ahem... enslaved) who taught them about corn and diversity (right... was that before or after the raping?) and the two cultures shared the first Thanksgiving Dinner, which we celebrate every year on the last Thursday in November (which is also why on that date I want to kill my heathen family with a turkey baster)
Thene learned about the "Declaration of Independance" which was written by the "Fathers of Our Country" (whiny letter written by stuffy white men in wigs) The Colonists then fought the "Evil British Empire" (Landlords) in what is now called "The American Revolution." (I have nothing to say) And The Colonists won! (It was a standoff, and the British decided to let us stay and die in the harsh winters) The New nation elected a new "President" (Dictator) in a totally "democratic election" (he was the only one running) George Washington did a whole bunch of stuff, most of which probably never happened, and then we got "The Constitution" (The Constitution, not the Constitution, but "T"he "C"onstitution, as though it was the only one which ever existed) The Constittion stated "that all men are created equal" (unless they happen to not be stuffy white men in wigs) Soon it was discovered that the Fathers of our Country" (stuffy....wigs) had glossed over some key elements, for example, what if The King's.... um... The President's Tea and Crumpe... um... Coffee and Tobacco were not exactly "up to snuff?" Could another stuffy white man in a wig rightly criticize the President's faux pas? Thusly were drawn up the "Bill of Rights" (hahahahaha) The first ten ammendments to "The Constitution" (which if you'll recall was the be all end all of Human civilization... this was just a fixer-upper) So we got "Free Speech" (sort of) "Free Press" (sort of) "right to bear arms" (good idea) "right to a fair and speedy trial" (unless you are actually innocent, then it takes months, and you are sometimes found guilty anyhow) and so on and so forth, but those are the highlights.
Oh, by the way, I forgot to tell you, in the South of this wonderful place, these's a bunch of rich people who own plantations of tobacco. These plantations are kept up by "Slave Labor" (Slave Labor) "Lesser people" (negroes) are shipped in from "The Dark Continent" (Africa, dark because it was unknown, much like the Dark Ages, not because "the darkies" lived there) A bunch of stuff happened that most Americans today know next to nothing about, and for some stupid reason (If you say it was just because of Slavery, I will come to your house and beat the crap out of you) The "Confederates" (South) decided to "Secede from the Union" (New Country... Second Amrican Revolution) Well, as we all know secession from another nation is totally Unamerican (hahahahahahahahaha) So the North and South fought the "American Civil War" (yeah, we kick ass) which the North eventually "won" (The South were persuaded to stay) and the "tension" ceased. (right, try telling that to a "Yankee" in Macon, or a Georgian in Times Square) Our "Manifest Destiny" urged us Westward (look up the words manifest destiny one day, it's a pretty funny phrase in context) and we eventually claimed the land from sea to shining sea! (wait, there's someone here already? *bang* no there's not) Somewhere in there was a "Teapot Dome Scandal", but I was busy looking at the girls in the classroom and wondering why my insides felt all squishy when I looked at them, so I missed a lot of the subtle stuff, but there's the basic first 100 or so years of American History.
More ammendments to our glorious constitution then took place, and eventually, The United States of America became a shining star for other nations to look to for guidance!" (sorry everyone)
Now, if any of you are still reading this, you are wondering what the Hell is Phatteus talking about?
Phatteus is trying to set a tone for the mindset of the Modern American Citizen. Keeping in mind that the winners of the wars write the History books, is it any wonder that American History from the eyes of an American is so sugar-coated? Teachers aren't going to tell a classroom full of seven-year-olds that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and raped them on a regular basis. They're not going to tell them that The Declaration of Independance had no basis in Law, and was nothing more than a list of grievances written by a bunch of British Colonists who felt they were being treated unfairly. They're not going to tell them that The American Revolution wasn't really "won", but that rather the British just stopped coming around. American History was written by Americans, and we have been trained all our lives that we are to have pride in America. The winners of the wars write the history books. What if the Romans had beaten back the Germanic Tribes of the North? What if The Soviet Union had Conquered all of Asia? What if Hitler had eradicated everyone but his supposed "race of Supermen"? Would the world be different? Of course it would. Would the human race have endured? Probably. But the history books certainly would have looked different.
Now, why am I badmouthing my country? I am trying to show that I know that my country is not perfect. I know that The United States of America was founded on some pretty messed up ideals. I know these things and I still stand by my country because I love my country. I love every scandal, I love every lie and every blemish. I love them because they identify my country. I don't care about how many women JFK brought into the White House. He was the President, and he demanded respect. I don't care how long William Henry Harrison was in office; (30 days) his term is part of Americana.
The Founding Fathers (remember the white guys in the wigs) founded this nation on one ideal. It's not Democracy, and it's not Capitalism. Those concepts were "thought up" later. They founded the united States of America on the basis of Patriotism. We consider the founding fathers to be Patriots. They blindly followed their ideals, sometimes to their deaths, and that is what is expected of the average American. Patriotism is based on Pride, and all you out there with "Proud to be American" plastered on your rear bumpers can rest assured that you are true patriots.
What does all this mean? What in the Hell is Phatteus rambling on about? I am talking about what it means to be an American. My fake name is Phatteus, and I am an American. I know my country is fucked up. I am still here. My fake name is Phatteus, and I am an American. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation under GOD with liberty and justice for all. My fake name is Phatteus, and I am an American. In Hal's words: "Tough" "Get over it" I'm an American, deal with it. My fake name is Phatteus, and I'm an American. If you criticize my country, you criticize me. I will not tell you that you cannot criticize my nation, but expect a backlash from me. Freedom does not only go one way. My fake name is Phatteus and I am an American. And that's not gonna change.
By the way, I'm also a New Yorker, so all the other Americans can hate me almost as much as everyone else.
Now what was it you wanted me to read? The seventy-five posts all seemed to blend together after a while. Jeez, you step away in disgust for one day...
To Hal, I appreciate and respect the complete unapologetic nature of your initial response to me. I would have expected nothing less from you. (I mean that in a respectful way.. by the way, forgive my frequent typos today, I seem to have developed a sleep disorder in the past few days called not being aboe to freakin' sleep, but I felt this thread deserved a few words from me.)
I'm not even going to discuss Guantanamo Bay, Cuba in this post, because we all have facts that contradict one another. I"ll say one thing, then Jo will say another, and Hal will say I'm wrong (which I very well might be) and Jim will come along with an encyclopedic text detailing the many facets of my argument which were factual and the others which were entirely false, followed by someone (possibly me) making a reference to Cuban cigars and president Clinton (notice the strategic capitalization). Cuba is behind me now. I want to talk about patriotism. I am probably going to make a lot of enemies with this post, so as I said before, if you don't want to read this, please skip it and go on to something else.
Now, I was born in the United States of America. I was born in that nation in the latter half of the 20th century. 202 years of American history had occurred prior to my birthday (quick, guess my age!) I went to school in the United States of America; there I learned facts about the birth of America, wherein "Pilgrims" (we weren't told what a Pilgrim was) landed on "Plymouth Rock" (must've hurt) and befriended some "Indians" (ahem... enslaved) who taught them about corn and diversity (right... was that before or after the raping?) and the two cultures shared the first Thanksgiving Dinner, which we celebrate every year on the last Thursday in November (which is also why on that date I want to kill my heathen family with a turkey baster)
Thene learned about the "Declaration of Independance" which was written by the "Fathers of Our Country" (whiny letter written by stuffy white men in wigs) The Colonists then fought the "Evil British Empire" (Landlords) in what is now called "The American Revolution." (I have nothing to say) And The Colonists won! (It was a standoff, and the British decided to let us stay and die in the harsh winters) The New nation elected a new "President" (Dictator) in a totally "democratic election" (he was the only one running) George Washington did a whole bunch of stuff, most of which probably never happened, and then we got "The Constitution" (The Constitution, not the Constitution, but "T"he "C"onstitution, as though it was the only one which ever existed) The Constittion stated "that all men are created equal" (unless they happen to not be stuffy white men in wigs) Soon it was discovered that the Fathers of our Country" (stuffy....wigs) had glossed over some key elements, for example, what if The King's.... um... The President's Tea and Crumpe... um... Coffee and Tobacco were not exactly "up to snuff?" Could another stuffy white man in a wig rightly criticize the President's faux pas? Thusly were drawn up the "Bill of Rights" (hahahahaha) The first ten ammendments to "The Constitution" (which if you'll recall was the be all end all of Human civilization... this was just a fixer-upper) So we got "Free Speech" (sort of) "Free Press" (sort of) "right to bear arms" (good idea) "right to a fair and speedy trial" (unless you are actually innocent, then it takes months, and you are sometimes found guilty anyhow) and so on and so forth, but those are the highlights.
Oh, by the way, I forgot to tell you, in the South of this wonderful place, these's a bunch of rich people who own plantations of tobacco. These plantations are kept up by "Slave Labor" (Slave Labor) "Lesser people" (negroes) are shipped in from "The Dark Continent" (Africa, dark because it was unknown, much like the Dark Ages, not because "the darkies" lived there) A bunch of stuff happened that most Americans today know next to nothing about, and for some stupid reason (If you say it was just because of Slavery, I will come to your house and beat the crap out of you) The "Confederates" (South) decided to "Secede from the Union" (New Country... Second Amrican Revolution) Well, as we all know secession from another nation is totally Unamerican (hahahahahahahahaha) So the North and South fought the "American Civil War" (yeah, we kick ass) which the North eventually "won" (The South were persuaded to stay) and the "tension" ceased. (right, try telling that to a "Yankee" in Macon, or a Georgian in Times Square) Our "Manifest Destiny" urged us Westward (look up the words manifest destiny one day, it's a pretty funny phrase in context) and we eventually claimed the land from sea to shining sea! (wait, there's someone here already? *bang* no there's not) Somewhere in there was a "Teapot Dome Scandal", but I was busy looking at the girls in the classroom and wondering why my insides felt all squishy when I looked at them, so I missed a lot of the subtle stuff, but there's the basic first 100 or so years of American History.
More ammendments to our glorious constitution then took place, and eventually, The United States of America became a shining star for other nations to look to for guidance!" (sorry everyone)
Now, if any of you are still reading this, you are wondering what the Hell is Phatteus talking about?
Phatteus is trying to set a tone for the mindset of the Modern American Citizen. Keeping in mind that the winners of the wars write the History books, is it any wonder that American History from the eyes of an American is so sugar-coated? Teachers aren't going to tell a classroom full of seven-year-olds that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and raped them on a regular basis. They're not going to tell them that The Declaration of Independance had no basis in Law, and was nothing more than a list of grievances written by a bunch of British Colonists who felt they were being treated unfairly. They're not going to tell them that The American Revolution wasn't really "won", but that rather the British just stopped coming around. American History was written by Americans, and we have been trained all our lives that we are to have pride in America. The winners of the wars write the history books. What if the Romans had beaten back the Germanic Tribes of the North? What if The Soviet Union had Conquered all of Asia? What if Hitler had eradicated everyone but his supposed "race of Supermen"? Would the world be different? Of course it would. Would the human race have endured? Probably. But the history books certainly would have looked different.
Now, why am I badmouthing my country? I am trying to show that I know that my country is not perfect. I know that The United States of America was founded on some pretty messed up ideals. I know these things and I still stand by my country because I love my country. I love every scandal, I love every lie and every blemish. I love them because they identify my country. I don't care about how many women JFK brought into the White House. He was the President, and he demanded respect. I don't care how long William Henry Harrison was in office; (30 days) his term is part of Americana.
The Founding Fathers (remember the white guys in the wigs) founded this nation on one ideal. It's not Democracy, and it's not Capitalism. Those concepts were "thought up" later. They founded the united States of America on the basis of Patriotism. We consider the founding fathers to be Patriots. They blindly followed their ideals, sometimes to their deaths, and that is what is expected of the average American. Patriotism is based on Pride, and all you out there with "Proud to be American" plastered on your rear bumpers can rest assured that you are true patriots.
What does all this mean? What in the Hell is Phatteus rambling on about? I am talking about what it means to be an American. My fake name is Phatteus, and I am an American. I know my country is fucked up. I am still here. My fake name is Phatteus, and I am an American. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation under GOD with liberty and justice for all. My fake name is Phatteus, and I am an American. In Hal's words: "Tough" "Get over it" I'm an American, deal with it. My fake name is Phatteus, and I'm an American. If you criticize my country, you criticize me. I will not tell you that you cannot criticize my nation, but expect a backlash from me. Freedom does not only go one way. My fake name is Phatteus and I am an American. And that's not gonna change.
By the way, I'm also a New Yorker, so all the other Americans can hate me almost as much as everyone else.
Re: Re: As Opposed To Being Responsible..
Jim, you're off about Versailles. It was the European leaders who wanted to punish Germany so badly for WWI. Wilson was quite opposed to the idea. So if you mean to include the US in "we" you're wrong.
Jim, you're off about Versailles. It was the European leaders who wanted to punish Germany so badly for WWI. Wilson was quite opposed to the idea. So if you mean to include the US in "we" you're wrong.
BigJim said:
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Re: Re: Re: As Opposed To Being Responsible..
Uh-huh. The Americans were there, but it was France and Britain who had the biggest presence after the Great War. "We" was a non-nationality specific term, meaning the Entente. I've often heard Americans on this board dig Hal or Marauder about how their country unleashed terror on the world with Hitler, but wanted to make the point that it wasn't the German people's fault. They'd been pushed visciously into a corner and reacted the way any person would do when their savior figure came along. (Which in my opinion had been the Elite's gioal and the reason why things were structured the way they were at Versailles.)
kyle said:
Uh-huh. The Americans were there, but it was France and Britain who had the biggest presence after the Great War. "We" was a non-nationality specific term, meaning the Entente. I've often heard Americans on this board dig Hal or Marauder about how their country unleashed terror on the world with Hitler, but wanted to make the point that it wasn't the German people's fault. They'd been pushed visciously into a corner and reacted the way any person would do when their savior figure came along. (Which in my opinion had been the Elite's gioal and the reason why things were structured the way they were at Versailles.)
Haltickling
2nd Level Green Feather
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Phatteus, I respect patriotism, and I respect most of what America used to stand for. And I respect every single human, Americans or of whatever nationality, as well. I never asked you to give up your pride for your country.phatteus said:
What I'm criticizing is not the America I've learnt to respect, but what the current administration is doing to it. It's perverting the values which your country used to stand for, and therefore completely un-American. This perversion should infuriate every true American patriot more than any foreigner. You pledge allegiance to your country and its symbols, not to a certain political ideology which contradicts these symbols. That's why Hitler changed the German Pledge of Allegiance explicitely to himself, away from the flag and the values it symbolized. That's why most communist countries inserted "socialism", their political ideology, into their pledge of allegiance.
That, IMHO, makes the difference between a true patriot and a mindless, fanatic follower of politicians, not a bumper-sticker claiming to be proud of your country. It makes all the difference between a personal insult and a criticism of current politics.
So please let's return to the original topic: the detainment camp in Guantanamo Bay. I corroborated my opinion with several sources and links, both American and international. You have contradicting information, you say? I'd like to hear more about them, and specifics about their source.
Thanks! 😎
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Kinda long, but please bear with me Phat, cos there's a point to all this...
Anyone would think that I have a reputation for such things.
Now THERE is a good subject for discussion!!!
You mentioned Jefferson owning them, but you forgot the bit about Washington and Franklin too. 😀 Probably the rest did too, but I didn';t read about it yet.
Believe it or not, I've been following you better than I've followed anyone else who's posted here. Maybe it's because you used humour as a medium, which is something I understand and appreciate.
I'll talk more about this in a second...
The bulk of the matter...
It seems to me Phat, that there are two different sorts of patriotism being talked about here. Blind patriotism, no matter what the country, is a lethally dangerous disease. It means that people find excuses for outrageous human rights abuses, restriction of free speech, unmonitored detention of civillians and innocent people (coughcoughGuantanomoBaycoughcough) and acts of international banditry, just because people are too blinkered to do anything other than stick by their country's actions, no matter how immoral. (Notice I say "their country's actions", not "their country".) Blind patriotism is something inculcated into the individual from a very young age by selective history teaching, in some cases downright lying and let's face it: brainwashing. Religions work in the same way, very often. People are positively discouraged from making a decision based on what they think is right or wrong. Instead they are battered emotionally, spiritually and sometimes physically into obeying the agenda. If they kick against their religion then they're heretics, or they're going to hell for eternity for rejecting Christ/God/Allah/Pee Wee Hermann. If they kick against blind patriotism then they're communists, capitalist imperial pigs, sympathetic to terrorists, disloyal, helping the fear, etc. None of them true in 99% of cases, but the rest of the sheeple have been brainwashed into being the thought police. Amazing isn't it? The government don;t have to do jack-shit to us, because we police each other. One of the Dixie-Chicks makes the remark that she doesn't agree with everything George B. Bush does as President, and the next thing you know the public are staging mass burnings of Dixie Chick CD's in the street. Danny GLover and various other actors who speak up against the war are boycotted in the their industry and the casual person in the street who is thinking of daring to express their thoughts is quickly terrified into remaining silent. Somebody remind me of the First Amendment again? As Steve pointed out it only restricts the government from shitting on people, but that doesn't make it moral for one person or group of people to hamper the rights of free speech of another. It happens frequently in America though, because these people have committed the horrid act of being "un-patriotic". This is when patriotism becomes a bad thing, when people's excessiveness of it leads them to restric the public freedoms of others.
Positive patriotism on the other hand, can be an ultimately wonderful thing. Positive patriotism is the constant striving to try and make you country the best. Sometimes this involves recognising faults and even evils in it, then taking steps to fix them and replace them with freedoms and liberties. This means allowing someone to speak their mind without being predjudiced or restrictive towards them; even if you find their POV distasteful. More than that, it means defending to the death their right to that. (Yes, this limey reads Voltaire. He also said that God was not on the side of the big battalions, but of the best shots. Candide I think he said it in.) Positive patriotism is something to be embraced, because unlike the blind version, it doesn't curtail the freedoms of others or persuade the subject to ignore things their country does wrong.
Imagine you had a child. (I don't know if you're a father or not mate.) Now imagine that your child, as all children are, is not perfect. Imagine as well as loving their daddy and mummy, this child is prone to stealing stuff out the closet, throwing tantrums when they get their own way and generally being pissy to all and sundry. You love that child, you stand by it and protect it; but no parent deserving of the title would indulge it's every whim. They'd instill a sense of discipline in self-control into the little brat, until it's capable of acting maturely as an adult.
So positive patriotism is the better one, in my opinion. Admitting that your country has faults and does bad things isn't un-patriotic. It shows that the grey cells lumped between your lugs are actually firing. Neither does being a positive patriot mean that you can't celebrate your country, despite it's faults. Being all negative leads to being the world's most miserable bastard and that does no-one any good.
Personally my country of origin is a matter of total indifference to me. I appreciate that I can say what I do without being machine gunned up against a wall, so that's a plus. I appreciate that the level of technology and the stlye of living in my country is a lot more comfortable compared to Ghana. I also appreciate that the government of my country has committed, and is still committing, evils in that continent. Africa has been raped for close to three hundred years by powers based in Britain. That doesn't stop me being willing to pay taxes or contribute to my country through my community and taxes etc. Nor does it give me the desire to stand in the street and set fire to a Union Jack flag. In my opinion, flag burning is childish, makes you look a dick and achieves nothing.
At least you're not a Texan. 😛
Seriously phatteus, I dug your post. It made me laugh and made me think.
Anyone would think that I have a reputation for such things.
Now THERE is a good subject for discussion!!!
You mentioned Jefferson owning them, but you forgot the bit about Washington and Franklin too. 😀 Probably the rest did too, but I didn';t read about it yet.
Believe it or not, I've been following you better than I've followed anyone else who's posted here. Maybe it's because you used humour as a medium, which is something I understand and appreciate.
I'll talk more about this in a second...
The bulk of the matter...
It seems to me Phat, that there are two different sorts of patriotism being talked about here. Blind patriotism, no matter what the country, is a lethally dangerous disease. It means that people find excuses for outrageous human rights abuses, restriction of free speech, unmonitored detention of civillians and innocent people (coughcoughGuantanomoBaycoughcough) and acts of international banditry, just because people are too blinkered to do anything other than stick by their country's actions, no matter how immoral. (Notice I say "their country's actions", not "their country".) Blind patriotism is something inculcated into the individual from a very young age by selective history teaching, in some cases downright lying and let's face it: brainwashing. Religions work in the same way, very often. People are positively discouraged from making a decision based on what they think is right or wrong. Instead they are battered emotionally, spiritually and sometimes physically into obeying the agenda. If they kick against their religion then they're heretics, or they're going to hell for eternity for rejecting Christ/God/Allah/Pee Wee Hermann. If they kick against blind patriotism then they're communists, capitalist imperial pigs, sympathetic to terrorists, disloyal, helping the fear, etc. None of them true in 99% of cases, but the rest of the sheeple have been brainwashed into being the thought police. Amazing isn't it? The government don;t have to do jack-shit to us, because we police each other. One of the Dixie-Chicks makes the remark that she doesn't agree with everything George B. Bush does as President, and the next thing you know the public are staging mass burnings of Dixie Chick CD's in the street. Danny GLover and various other actors who speak up against the war are boycotted in the their industry and the casual person in the street who is thinking of daring to express their thoughts is quickly terrified into remaining silent. Somebody remind me of the First Amendment again? As Steve pointed out it only restricts the government from shitting on people, but that doesn't make it moral for one person or group of people to hamper the rights of free speech of another. It happens frequently in America though, because these people have committed the horrid act of being "un-patriotic". This is when patriotism becomes a bad thing, when people's excessiveness of it leads them to restric the public freedoms of others.
Positive patriotism on the other hand, can be an ultimately wonderful thing. Positive patriotism is the constant striving to try and make you country the best. Sometimes this involves recognising faults and even evils in it, then taking steps to fix them and replace them with freedoms and liberties. This means allowing someone to speak their mind without being predjudiced or restrictive towards them; even if you find their POV distasteful. More than that, it means defending to the death their right to that. (Yes, this limey reads Voltaire. He also said that God was not on the side of the big battalions, but of the best shots. Candide I think he said it in.) Positive patriotism is something to be embraced, because unlike the blind version, it doesn't curtail the freedoms of others or persuade the subject to ignore things their country does wrong.
Imagine you had a child. (I don't know if you're a father or not mate.) Now imagine that your child, as all children are, is not perfect. Imagine as well as loving their daddy and mummy, this child is prone to stealing stuff out the closet, throwing tantrums when they get their own way and generally being pissy to all and sundry. You love that child, you stand by it and protect it; but no parent deserving of the title would indulge it's every whim. They'd instill a sense of discipline in self-control into the little brat, until it's capable of acting maturely as an adult.
So positive patriotism is the better one, in my opinion. Admitting that your country has faults and does bad things isn't un-patriotic. It shows that the grey cells lumped between your lugs are actually firing. Neither does being a positive patriot mean that you can't celebrate your country, despite it's faults. Being all negative leads to being the world's most miserable bastard and that does no-one any good.
Personally my country of origin is a matter of total indifference to me. I appreciate that I can say what I do without being machine gunned up against a wall, so that's a plus. I appreciate that the level of technology and the stlye of living in my country is a lot more comfortable compared to Ghana. I also appreciate that the government of my country has committed, and is still committing, evils in that continent. Africa has been raped for close to three hundred years by powers based in Britain. That doesn't stop me being willing to pay taxes or contribute to my country through my community and taxes etc. Nor does it give me the desire to stand in the street and set fire to a Union Jack flag. In my opinion, flag burning is childish, makes you look a dick and achieves nothing.
At least you're not a Texan. 😛
Seriously phatteus, I dug your post. It made me laugh and made me think.
Perfect example of mega-patriotism being bad for the people of America...
Withing hours of the Oklahoma bombing and the 9/11 attacks, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush orchestrate legislature that removes civil liberties and basic human rights freedoms from the American people. Not a single congressman or senator has the guts to oppose the Big Brother laws (enabling the military more power to quell civil disturbance and the Patriot Act respectively) because they're terrified of being labelled with the career ending "UNPATRIOTIC" sticker.
Where is the positive in that?
Withing hours of the Oklahoma bombing and the 9/11 attacks, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush orchestrate legislature that removes civil liberties and basic human rights freedoms from the American people. Not a single congressman or senator has the guts to oppose the Big Brother laws (enabling the military more power to quell civil disturbance and the Patriot Act respectively) because they're terrified of being labelled with the career ending "UNPATRIOTIC" sticker.
Where is the positive in that?
Freedom of speech prohibits the Government from attacking anyone based on their beliefs. It does not prohibit me from calling the Dixie Chicks Pinko morons for their comments. By the way, Natalie Whatshername didn't say "I disagree with what George Bush is doing", she said "We should all be ashamed that our President is from Texas." That's, to me, a disgusting remark, and I felt it was a stupid thing to say. I hated their music to begin with, so I really couldn't boycott anything that I wasn't patronizing to begin with. Danny Glover, Crispin Glover, whomever else was "against the war" I felt were against it for all the wrong reasons. These people could have given three shits about the suffering of innocent Iraqis. I recall someone holding up a sign at last year's Oscars Red Carpet Joan Rivers Slugfest which read "No War for Oil". Last time I checked, Bush was going after weapons which may or may not have ever existed. I am not going to say that we cannot protest the war, but at the very least we should know what the Hell we're protesting against.
99% of the celebrities who are protesting the war are doing so because George Bush is behind it. George Bush is a REpublican, and if you do not know, Republicans are hated by most celebrities because the Democratic party exemplifies the celebrity lifestyle, mascotted by a Donkey, while the Republican mascot, a stuffy White man in a wig, exemplifies something totally different. (see, referrential humor, I can make fun of myself too!) So George Bush "declares war" (sort of) on Iraq, and Hollywood has a hissy fit. "He's looking for revenge" "He's looking for more money from the oil reserves" He's looking to start world war III" Had Al Gore been "elected" (it has been argued that he "was" elected) and Al Qaeda had destroyed the World Trade Towers, and Al Gore had gone to Iraq to start a war (he wouldn't have, because recent Democratic presidents have generally shied away from conflict) I think the celebrities would be behind him 100 percent.
Who was there when Clinton was banging interns? Hollywood. It's what they would have done, so why not the president.
As for your comments on patriotism, Jim, you have pretty much stated eloquently what I as trying to say. I'm not saying I'm right to blindly follow my country, but it's what I am going to do until the day I die. I am not going to apologise for that.
-Haltickling
Hal, I agree that the current administration is undesireable in the eyes of many. I am not going to argue that, but in my earlier post, I tried to convey that that is not a new concept. American policy-making has long been full of lies and double-speak. I still love my country, and I still respect my President. I understand that I have a Constitutional right to criticize my government, and that I probably should, but I choose not to do so because I stand by the ideals that Mr. Bush is pushing. Perhaps he is going about it the wrong way, but Saddam Hussein was just as bad a person as Hitler. Al Qaeda is a threat to the entire world, suspected terrorists are not the be entrusted with the same high regard as military POWs.
Say what you will about me, but these are my beliefs, and in my country, I am allowed to voice them.
phatteus said:
Sure you have that right. You'd be an emotive commentator, not a logical one of course. But then right-of-center Americans always did have a penchant for condemning as "communism" anything that is remotely close to the centre of politics, never mind the actual left. However your right to call them whatever you want, is nothing to do with organised slamming congragations that bear more traces of vitriol than the Salem witch trials. (Senator Joe would be proud!) What has essentially gone on, is a campaign to systematically destroy anyone who has gone against the government on this. That isn't respecting free speech, it's psychological fascism and is in direct opposition to the spirit of giving people the right to say whatever they want. Sure they don't get machine gunned for it, they just lose their career, have parcels of dogshit pushed through their door and get publicly barracked in the street. Rather infantile in my opinion. Oh well, as least they're not dead.
P.S. Yes, it is a pretty dumb thing to say.
phatteus said:
Pretty much the same here actually. I thought their music was pretty dire, for all of the two minutes that I tried to listen to it.
They may have been against it for the wrong reasons, they may not. Whichever it is, it's besides the point. They're having their right to freedom of speech restricted because of intimidation and a fear campaign. They may be the biggest turd-heads of all time, without a scrap of logic in their thick skulls. That doesn't change the fact that what has been done against them is deeply, fundementally and moraly wrong.
phatteus said:
Now just suppose Dubya DID want to go to war for oil. Is he gonna stand up in Congress or the Senate and say as much? The dumbest bastard ever to be in the White House he may be, but even he ain't that stupid! Remember the Falklands Conflict? Did Margaret Thatcher say she was going to war to preserve the Falkland Islands so she could get a rise in her popularity and retain Britain's rights to fossil fuel rich territory in Antarctica? Did she bollocks; she said she was going to free British Citizens from the tyranny of a military junta. Sound familiar?
phatteus said:
People have said to me throughout my writing of various conspiracy "theories" that I cannot be right about what I say, because it would be impossible for so few to control so many. They just couldn't win the game of numbers, it'd be too difficult. From now on whenever someone tells me that, I'll point out those words of yours to them.
Controlling the many isn't just possible, it's a piece of cake. In your case all they have to do is stand in front of the American flag and tell you it's your patriotic duty to stand by and do nothing while they bomb, thieve, kill and destroy. (This goes for Democrats too you know. Don't take me for a Democrat just because I critiscise George W. bush and the current Republican administration. They're both as bad as each other in different ways.) Think it's wrong you may do, but you obviously wouldn't do or say anything about it, because they've got you by the nuts. All they have to do is accuse you of being un-patriotic and you'll be guilt-tripped and guilty-fied into following them.
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phatteus said:
Sorry to bump in on comments you directed to Hal Phat, but I have a point to make.
The Constitution was put in place to give rights to the people and prevent a government from becomming too autonomous to put the people at risk from unjust action.
Guantanomo Bay is a perfect example of one case where they've done just that. It's a black-spot. No monitoring, no legal representation,l no red Cross, no soft toilet paper... jack shit. They can do whatever the fuck they want to the people there, because legally they carry the same rights as "untermesch" did in Nazi Germany. The Federal Government is carrying out acts against a great deal of innocent civillians and there's nothing that anyone can do about it, because they've said FUCK YOU to anyone who's tried. Fact is, you next door neighbour could be interred there and you might just think they'd gone on holiday. Guantanomo and the other places like it are nothing more than concentration camps for individuals the government only has to invoke the words "national security" to unlawfully intern.
A proposition
Hal, BigJim, and anyone else:
If either of you make it to the Northeast of the US, let me know. I'd be glad and honored to raise a glass or two or three with you. The same if I ever make it to the UK or Germany. You are good people, and I certainly hope that there are no hard feelings over anything which has been said in this thread. I look forward to that beer.
With extreme sincerity,
-Phatteus
Hal, BigJim, and anyone else:
If either of you make it to the Northeast of the US, let me know. I'd be glad and honored to raise a glass or two or three with you. The same if I ever make it to the UK or Germany. You are good people, and I certainly hope that there are no hard feelings over anything which has been said in this thread. I look forward to that beer.
With extreme sincerity,
-Phatteus
oh, and by the way,
you are right to attack my use of the word "pinko" I understand the hypocracy of my use of such a word, and rather than editing it out, I will leave it as it is above, and simply state that my use of it was, in hindsight, unnessecary. I am not a witch-hunter, and do not condone the actions of such people.
you are right to attack my use of the word "pinko" I understand the hypocracy of my use of such a word, and rather than editing it out, I will leave it as it is above, and simply state that my use of it was, in hindsight, unnessecary. I am not a witch-hunter, and do not condone the actions of such people.
Re: A proposition
One thing my experience of the TMF has taught me to do Phat, is to be able to remain friends with people whose ideologies differ from mine greatly. You can be sure that I'd happily drain a glass with you. 🙂
With no hard feelings and equal sincerity,
Jim
phatteus said:
One thing my experience of the TMF has taught me to do Phat, is to be able to remain friends with people whose ideologies differ from mine greatly. You can be sure that I'd happily drain a glass with you. 🙂
With no hard feelings and equal sincerity,
Jim
