The Big Politics/Religion Thread

[BigJim]

I'm pretty much bored by this sort of thing now.

 

[Haltickling]

Jim, we already had HUGE threads discussing these issues, but we have so many new members that I don’t mind chiming in with a fresh debate.

Politics:
IMO, there’s a big fault in your logic about wars etc. being fixed. That would mean that some government leaders actually plotted their own downfall, often ending in their own death. While I don’t negate the possibility that parts of international political catastrophes may be fixed by SOME governments, I find it highly improbable that e.g. WW2 was fixed between the Allied Forces and Hitler. You’re doubtlessly referring to Orwell’s ‘1984’, but that doesn’t mean you’re right…

The microchip issue is nothing more than a dream-bubble of some absolutistic tooth-fairy, but as long as most Western governments are elected freely, there's no chance at all to get this through. Nothing but a provocative statement to spur debate, I guess. Or you may be infected by the 'Illuminati' virus... 😛

Religion(s):
I think you’re definitely mixing up religion and religious leadership. I consider religions a highly positive cog in our evolution (although I’m not religious myself). Why?

As soon as humans had developed the ability of wondering about their own existence, they discovered that they couldn’t explain every aspect of nature and life. Death, for example. Inexplicable things are installing fear in us, and fear is a very strong negative element for further evolution, preventing us from doing and acting. Believing in a supernatural being takes away most of our fear, giving us the feeling of comfort and protection. Only when we feel quite safe in general, we can develop new ideas. Okay, some things are invented because we’re threatened, but that’s by some things we can explain. The biggest fear of all lies in the Inexplicable.

Now, the big difference lies in what some humans did to use (or abuse) religion for their own, personal advantage, or because they just misinterpreted the original purpose of the religion’s founders. Humans tend to make human mistakes. Humans tend to be greedy, manipulative, power-hungry. So the religious leaderships who preach and teach their own interpretation of religion bungled the whole great idea up. What else is new?

This reminds me of the old farmer who was asked by the village priest: “Why do you never come to church? Don’t you believe in God?” He replies calmly: “I’ve got no problems with God, only with his ground staff…” 😀

That’s just a roughly abbreviated version of my own view of the world. I actually wrote a whole book about such topics, quite a long time ago, but it’s in German. Besides, it’s just too big to fit in here, at a tickling forum.

 

[Admiral Trouser]

Oh no. I'm doing Philosophy and Politics for my university degree. I could be here for hours, Jim.....

Alright. Politics.

This has obviously been spurred on by your replies in the illuminati thread; the idea that the world is being manipulated by an elite few so elite that there existance is, apparantly, a mere myth. While writing this I was going to dismiss this theory straight off, until I remembered the quote: "The greatest trick the Devil ever acheived was convincing everyone he didn't exist". And then I had to think about it.
Basicaly, and after much thought, the theory is still unworkable. Although it is logicaly possible that such a degree of manipulation could be achieved and maintained over an entire species, it is well above and beyond the mental capacity of any human being to accurately predict how people will react given certain engineered circumstances, and then to carry on with that process indefinately and THEN bend it all to your will and agenda. Humans just dont come equiped with that kind of foresight, and the very nature of human action and reaction makes prediction of just ONE person's thoughts/actions a very random affair. The're just too many variables to pull such a task off with any success at all, never mind constant success.

I agree mostly with Hal's view on the nature of Religeon, although I don't beleive that it is still a necessary cog of evolution any more: Science seems to have taken its place in terms of explaining the majority of everyday things, and to me Philosophy, not religeon, fills in the gaps about death and all things metaphysical. Religeon seems to be a poor substitute, I feel.

Ok, I'll stop now. There's blood on the keyboard.......

 

[amk714]

No long post here; otherwise, I'd be here until I die! 😀

Politics: Don't care much for it, but still important (please vote!), so follow the issues, take sides (but not lives), and do what you can to keep democracy alive! 🙂

Religion: If you follow it, fine; if not, that's cool also! I don't, but all of you are still my brothers and sisters! Just don't come up to me or knock on my door and tell me I'm a sinner! 😛

I do have more thoughts, but I don't feel like typing a billion-word post right now

 

[TickleCrazy]

Politics:

The movie "Wag the Dog" in which a war is faked in a movie studio and fed to the press illustrates what I believe is standard practice. There's no point in debating what the truth is when it's simply inaccessible. I do vote, according to platform not party, but I don't imagine it means much. My focus is on my home and my local community -- areas that I can influence and nurture.

Religion:

Before there was anything, there had to be something. To think otherwise is foolishness. I have personally felt the presence and guidance of God in my life. I love this joke:

Three scientists decided they were so smart they didn't need God anymore. One said to God, "God, we have decided that we don't need your help anymore, and to prove this, we want to have a contest. We believe we can build a human from scratch faster than you." God replied, "Ok, I'll take your challenge. Whoever makes a human first wins." Excitedly, the scientist raced to tell the others. A moment later they were ready to begin. The first scientist reached down to grab some earth when lightning almost struck his hand. God replied, "Get your own dirt."

That's about as specific as I get online. I don't find that cyber-relationships are strengthened by debates on politics or religion.

 

[amk714]

TickleCrazy, sorry to disagree, but...

Voting does make a difference. Think of what things would be like if Al Gore was President. Certainly, home and local community are important, but state, national, and even world affairs also affect our lives. If they didn't, we wouldn't need governments or borders.

I respect everyone's religious beliefs or lack thereof. The joke assumes there IS a god. Evolution is real, not imagined.

This link is for everyone who's interested in politics and/or religion: http://home.att.net/~resurgence/LiberalFAQ.htm

Again, a post in which I am editing out a billion words 😛

 

[TickleCrazy]

Re: TickleCrazy, sorry to disagree, but...

Evolution is real, not imagined.

Did the joke imply that I reject evolution? Not so. The way I see it, God designed this world and the obvious ability of organisms to adapt. Smart, wasn't He? 🙂 The joke simply illustrates that no matter how "evolved" human beings become, we are no match for the Creator.

 

[amk714]

About evolution...

I never said you were a creationist, and I understand the joke, provided there is a Creator. You bookmarked the site, but here's a link from it that illustrates my point (you don't have to agree): http://home.att.net/~resurgence/L-intelligentdesign.htm

 

[JoBelle]

Whoa...that's a hefty bit of conspiracy thought.

That billions of individual minds are fooled by an elite few...YIKES! I just don't buy it.

That religion is cow-pooh, can't buy that either. In the silence of despair, most people will cry out "Oh God" meaning a variety of things. BUT...I betcha it means more than what you're giving credit for it being.

Way too much of what you wrote goes against my true self to even discuss beyond what you read above.

Quietly stepping out of the thread,
Joby

 

[TickleCrazy]

Re: About evolution...

I never said you were a creationist, and I understand the joke, provided there is a Creator. You bookmarked the site, but here's a link from it that illustrates my point (you don't have to agree): http://home.att.net/~resurgence/L-intelligentdesign.htm

From the article:
"Darwin...identified the forces of nature which design life..."
"The first forms of life were quite simple..."

Yes, but thinking back beyond the first forms of life, what made the raw materials that comprise all that exists? What set the laws of physics in motion, the continuum of time?

Hey, I'm not smart enough to even entertain these questions. My arms are too short to box with God. But I love reading viewpoints on it. Back to that site tomorrow. 'Night! (it's 2 a.m. here)

 

[amk714]

I knew this thread would cause problems!

To Joby, TickleCrazy, and anyone else who disagrees with me, I must say that I might be wrong about religion. I would never try to get someone to NOT believe in God. There are many reasons why I think the way I do. Religion is not cow-pooh, and it can be used positively or negatively. I am not religious, but quite moral and compassionate toward my fellow man. I will probably regret this, but here's a website I like that I do not believe is hateful toward religion: http://www.positiveatheism.org/(Don't let the title scare you!)
If there's a God, and he's listening, I'm sorry, so please don't send me to hell

P.S. Thanks, BigJim, for starting this thread that's gotten me in hot water (you bloody Brit!) 😛

 

[Dave2112]

Although there is a lot of behind-the-scenes wheeling and dealing within any government, I highly doubt that all wars, etc. were crafted by some exclusive body of Illuminati or Skulls or whatever. The flaw in this reasoning is apparent in our current War on Terrorism. This isn't a war over territory or trade, we were attacked over religious beliefs. Bin Laden's people don't want our land or our money, they want our deaths. Even at the cost of their own...especially at the cost of their own, according to some of their convoluted beliefs. Assume that the whole thing is a set-up for just an instant. There is nothing to gain. Global stability is a real issue at the moment. Also, no matter how influential you are, you're going to run into a big-ass speed bump when you try to combine political agandas with fanatical religious beliefs. The two just don't mix. From a strictly managerial point of view...this just isn't beneficial.

As far as religion goes, you're defeating the whole point by opening it for dissection. The whole point of Faith is that it not need to be explained. Having a belief in a higher being/power but requiring proof or explanation of its existance is simply agnosticism.

One could say that, as a species of highly-developed animal alone, we have a natural need to explain the unexplainable. But that's just hard science. One could even chalk up the order of the Universe to a "Nature as God" scenario, but even that doesn't explain the exceptions to the rule. Acceptance and faith are the real cornerstones of any religion, the rest is just scholarly discussion at best, holy war at worst.

Consider the sheer size and scope of the known Universe. If we are alone here, or if we were an evolutionary mistake...it just isn't efficient. Even the Nature as God theory doesn't support the utter waste of space on iron, carbon, hydrogen and ice.

Consider even that God is simply another species of being. (Not something I subscribe to, just throwing it out there.) Like our need to believe in something, a being of this relative power and advancement would have a need to create, to surround itself with Life or whatever is within its power to design. Many of these things could be the basis for religion as we know it.

However, explanations like this once again go against the basic precept of Faith. Quite simply, we weren't meant to ever understand everything. We were meant to be inquisitive and designed to create, explore and ultimately master our surroundings. But no matter what we know or understand, the "next level", be it the Afterlife, Nirvana, Stardust or the Elysian Fields is most likely so complex that our current level of knowledge will pale in comparison to those things which we simply cannot accept as scientific beings. We were meant to master our world...not the others.

 

[BigJim]

I've moved on from this. It was a phase I went through.

 

[Admiral Trouser]

"A wise man proportions his beliefs in relation to the evidence laid before him".

David Hume, I beleive. He was, so far as I understand him, a bigger sceptic than you Jim, although in an entirely different sense that does not relate to this topic. But his words ring true here, and I'm going to follow that statement and try and reason this out.

Ok, so what do we have in terms of solid evidence that is in favour of your theory?
-The existance of secretive organisations. I don't deny that they do exist, it seems quite possible that they do.
-Numerous articles on said organisations, detailing there history and make-up. I'll admit here and now, the Free-Masons and there ilk all sound suspect in one way or another.
-Lots and lots of conjecture.

When it comes down to it, all I see is a mass of leaps in reason and logic. Conspiracy theorists, when trying to prove there theory, start out big: "The world is being manipulated by a chosen few". They have no evidence of it however, and when challenged on this they go small: "Ah, but you only think that because thats what they tell you". Again, no proof that this is actualy the case, and you end up going in circles. Cartesian circles, where you prove the first idea by backing it up with another idea which in itself depends upon the proof of the first. Round and round you go. All the evidence available to us states that for the most part, we aren't being controlled in any real or sinister sense.

Furthermore, read 1984 if you haven't done so already. Skip to the end, when O'Brian is explaining it all to Winston as he lays battered and confused in room 101. There, it is hinted that Goldstein is in fact not an opponent of the Party, but a a part of it: A fictional figure that acts as a focal point for peoples hate and fear, and to throw everyone off the scent. If you will allow the idea that an organisation is powerful and clever enough to manipulate an entire populace through any and all means, would you allow that talk of the illuminati is this organisations Goldstein? Just a thought.

I'm sorry, its all just too big a leap of logic for me....

 

[BigJim]

I've moved on from this sort of thing now.

 

[TicklingDuo]

I'm responding to Jim's original post...and only one part of it. It's not that I'm not interested in what everyone else has to say. I just don't have time for a longer stay right now.

OK...my thoughts on religion...

Actually, I'd like to seperate religion and spirituality here first. I consider myself to be a very spiritual person. That is, I believe wholeheartedly in God and spend time in relationship to Him. As for religion, I am a Roman Catholic. Though I don't agree 100% with everything that's presented as being "Catholic teaching" I DO agree with those teachings that I've explored myself. The errors come in human interpretations and manipulations of individuals trying to prove points...valid or not.

Maybe I should back up here for the sake of those who don't already know. I came very close to entering the convent. My reasons for looking in that direction were my love of God and the Church (the REAL Church, not what some within it make it out to be). My reason for choosing to go a different path were twofold. 1)I came to realize that I could live my faith better outside of the convent. 2) I saw too much human manipulation while searching for the direction my life would take.

Can I explain my faith in and love of God? Not really. It's very similar to my love of Drew (my hubby). I know that I love him with all my heart. I can give a few examples of surface things that can show some of the reasons. But, none do it justice. None fully share what's deep down inside. It's one of those, "I know that I know that I know" things. Do I understand everything that God allows? Absolutely not. Do I argue with Him and question Him? You betcha. But, as with any other relationship, I allow those things to help strengthen it rather than tearing it apart.

Can I explain my love of the Church and belief in her true teaching? That's difficult as well. I spent several years looking around at different faiths. Part of that was wanting to understand what others believed. But, most of it was trying to find what I truly believed myself. The Catholic faith (again, I stress the TRUE faith, not what some tout it to be) comes the closest of any to what I truly believe in my heart. Are there things that I disagree with? Sure. Are there individuals within the Church who I think are really messed up? Absolutely. Am I going to let them scare me away from doing what I feel led to? No way!

I'll respond again when I have more time and have read everyone else's thoughts.

Ann

 

[dvnc]

Wow. Interesting tidbits here. The Admiral sums for me, nicely, though.

Yeah, there's a lot of good conspiracy theory stuff here. Some's likely even possible. Some is likely a front. If ONE organization were controlling so much so thoroughly, do you think we'd really know about it?

I often suspect that there's SEVERAL bodies attempting control, as mankind works that way. You've got BigJim's postulations about the Illuminati, and you can add the mafias of the world, the tongs, triads, underground movements, and governments to that. There's not one group trying to control. There's many. That's the world, brother. Gotta leave it to avoid it.

Should ya vote? Depends on whether you want to try to contribute, and potentially make a difference.

I don't doubt that there are men attempting control of political structures. I just disbelieve that such is viable, long-term. Too easy to fight it.

Do all political regimes control everything. Ho ho. Explain that to Ho Chi Min (sp?). Political structures turn and change. It's part of growth. No control will last long. It counters natural movement and growth, IMHO.

As for religion, if we're speaking of ORGANIZED religion, I'm not a proponent FOR such, but I've respect for folks that follow, truly, a faith that proscribes love and unity. That some include selfish notions of being "the one" is difficult for me, and many do. I don't tend to trust anything in this wide world that says it's the only, and that the others are fake.

That's the trouble with a combined religion and politics thread. The complications are epic. They ARE related. Italy alone proves that. It's just a whopper topic. Interesting, but huge.

My $0.02,

dvnc

 

[dvnc]

Given those pure facts, is it any wonder why I don't believe that voting makes a damn bit of difference? DVNC, I know you think that voting is the main way to contribute and make a difference to ordinary people's lives, but given these cold, hard, facts.........what difference does chooses the Illuminate puppet of your choice make to anyone's life?

What difference does it make? Hello? BigJim, do you REALLY feel it's better to leave an unknown in complete control of the results of your environs? What if that power doesn't happen to find you significant that decade? Do you lie down and wait to die?

Voting is part of the LOCAL politics, and unless you have something in your LOCAL politics' control that a higher power wants, they aren't even going to LOOK at you. You're a green plum, a skinny lamb. Just because of the possibility that there are authorities high up controlling things (and the further possibility that such is bad), you wish to just slack on those in your locale, and leave them without your contribution?

Bad idea, I say.

BigJim, do keep in mind that they CAN'T control everything, and especially can't control everything all the time. Witness that you've "spoken" and still live. If your fears were founded, there wouldn't be so many books outlining exactly what you say. Visit the library, and see if you don't find at least a dozen different books, with a bibliography in the back of most, delineating where it's covered elsewhere.

The notion is interesting, but if true, to the degree you're touting it, it would be the most collosal screwup of a cover ever to be heard.

Conspiracies happen, high and low. Many can be intricate. They happen from many sources. If the will of so few governs so many, don't you marvel at how completely it's obscured, DESPITE novels being written, and the impossibility of hiding data in this age?

Another $0.02 for the pile,

dvnc

 

[TickleCrazy]

[snip]...No clouds parts, no thunderbolts struck and no booming voice addressed me, but I am convinced that more things exist than just we can see and am further convinced that they always influence us. I am a big believer in spiritual matters. I agree totally that it'd be foolishness to think that we are currently perceiving ourselves as being a part of is all that exists.

I'm so glad for you BigJim. I wish (and pray) for everyone to feel that divine connection. I don't have much to say about the rest of this thread, except that it's food for thought. I'll be chewing for years.

 

[dvnc]

One of the things I like most about your copious posts is the volume of interesting information in them. Yeah, some of it I disregard as distraction, like the McVeigh deal. I've two theories heard about such, and both deal with one group or other doing mayhem for a purpose. No one has detailed the piece I want to know - why that building?

The pieces of data you delineate are interesting. They're hardly conclusion of a world-dominating power, though, by my perspective.

Regardless, I do encourage ya to vote. Better your community through active participation. It's not that great an effort, either. Glad you do vote, on occasion. I just encourage more of it. Lends greater creedence to your other views, too, for what that's worth.

The microchip ID deal has been in progress for a long time. I just left the Silicon Valley, and you wouldn't BELIEVE what they put in a Driver's License already, just in the mag stripe. It's not far off for that area already. It's bound to happen. You left out the Child Identification chip, subdermally placed. What starts as a way for a paranoid parent to protect their offspring turns into a lifetime ID, unless the kid gets it extracted somehow, or degausses the sucker.

There's the cats that'll be "underground" in the next generation - "criminal degaussers". Zappin' subdermal chips through high magnetic scrambling. Easy to do, too. A battery, some wiring and a nail or screw, and you have a good powered magnet.

I dig your information, sir. I just don't see it as a monster large underground society. I see it as several corporate giants, a few underground societies, and some governments. Not necessarily sparkly, but a lot less threatening to me, personally.

Then again, I could be deluding myself into a comfortable existence. It's working, too. 😉

More change for the pile,

dvnc

 

[TickleCrazy]

Re: About spirituality...

There is nothing wrong with being spiritual and feeling a connection with (your) God. The problem is that throughout human history, too many people have used myths and spirits to explain things instead of science and rational thinking. If we had not invented all these appartions to "understand" what goes on all around us, we would be far ahead of where we are now in terms of progress. That's not to say that science and technology can be used without considering the consequences, but if used for good and not evil, they are far superior to spirituality in dealing with the problems we all face here on earth. Of course you must have compassion, but you can have it without being spiritual. Rememeber, whether or not there is an afterlife, what you do while you are on this planet makes a difference! 🙂

Amen! In fact, I personally find science and spirituality very compatible. Science serves to reveal to us more details about God's fascinating creation. It is organized religion that has a problem with science and just about everything else humans do.

 

[BigJim]

Stuff for DVNC...................

I left out the bit about the chips for kids program because that isn't a forecast of what will happen, it IS HAPPENING NOW! Several cases have happened in the British media following the Holly and Jessica murder case, where parents have paid to have their children microchipped.

I agree with you to a certain extent about "not a monster organisation, just companies etc etc" because these people are scared. Such an awakening is taking place and what they've perpetrated for centuries is gonna come down like a house of cards. Their organisation is incredible and detailed: you could'nt get the same bloodlines running the planet from the current pres, down through the kings of Europe , right back into the middle and near east and then right back to the Atlantian and Lemurian civillisations I mentioned earlier; if it wasn't.

While I believe that some governments are riddled with Illuminate and bloodline members, I think that others are controlled by them, without member participation; so to speak. Mugabwe and Hussein would be ones I'd suspect of being in the latter case.

It's a pleasure to debate with you D, I enjoy the discourse. If you don't follow and accept all of what I say, then it's a good thing. Someone who takes 100% of someone else's word for something so important is clinically brain dead.

Biggles mentioned earlier that he knew I'd be in this discussion because I just finished reading a book on the subject. Well he's right, but I didn't just read one book and then spew all this info out. I've been researching this subject for the better part of 4 years. I got involved with it because of personal considerations that tie in with a part of this conspiracy/agenda that I havn't even mentioned in this thread or the other Illuminate one. The info you see I've written is the result of my discovering and then confirming facts over that 4 year period. If people took all of it in in one go and din't question it, I'd be monumentally disappointed.

You may rest assured that I will always keep fighting for what I believe in. I won't enter politics itself because it's a dirty and old business that is falling apart at the seams like an old rag; but I WILL always make my voice heard. The thing about trying to combat single issues you believe in through political channels is that it's like trying to treat a symptom instead of the ilness itself. All the ills I've mentioned are all caused by one central bugbear........the Illuminate controlling things from the centre. If I tried to combat each issue on it's own I'd be forever trying to fight. Expose the whole evil centre of the problem though and the symptoms will wither away.

I liken it to Luke Skywalker destroying the whole Death Star with one blast that hit the right spot, instead of knocking all the chunks off the outside of it to destroy it a bit at a time. If he'd done that he'd have been fighting for years instead of hours and would have gotten shot down in the process. Once he hit that little hole, the whole thing blew in a nanosecond. That's quite a nerdy way of describing things, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at mate.

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: About spirituality...

Amen! In fact, I personally find science and spirituality very compatible. Science serves to reveal to us more details about God's fascinating creation. It is organized religion that has a problem with science and just about everything else humans do.

Double amen! When the two meet in tghe middle you'll have what we've desired for centuries and only hoped for. Balance.

 

[BigJim]

Here it is! Thanks to Hal and no thanks at all to Moses (WANKER!!!), I finally found the damn thread I mentioned yesterday. This is the one with the extra info in it.

 

[dvnc]

It's the revenge of the return of The Big Politics/Religion Thread!

Good t'see ya back around often again, Jim! Yer my favorite person, thus far, t'disagree wit', 'cause I can dig what you're sayin' even when it ain't "my way". Always dig knowin' other perspectives. Leads t'greater wisdom, way I figure it. 😉

dvnc