The Wrestling Thread!!

[Tickle Fiend]

I miss the old Y2J, too. The character he plays now is supposed to be completely different from what he used to be. Maybe he'll return to being his old self this year because it's closing in on two-years that he's been doing his current gimmick.

 

[john getty]

I'm a bit worried about the Undertaker too. I refuse to believe he's too old to be the REAL demon of death valley, I remember in the 90's when he simply told McMahon that the WWF was now his, and there was not much Vince could do about it. He's still the same DEADMAN, but he just seems a lot more tame.

 

[Adam]

This might seem a random, and I'm not sure if it's been asked before, but does anyone else miss the old Chris Jericho? Whether he was a face or a heel he was always more entertaining than he is now, a shite-all with a dictionary.

Definitely. No character in WWE has undergone a more significant transformation than Jericho. I mean, he can still be a cocky heel, but I miss the way he used to go about it. Hopefully Y2J returns someday.

 

[Flatfoot]

This might seem a random, and I'm not sure if it's been asked before, but does anyone else miss the old Chris Jericho? Whether he was a face or a heel he was always more entertaining than he is now, a shite-all with a dictionary.

Yeah, he's definitely not as entertaining as he used to be, and all his promo cuts and in-ring interviews/rants have him looking tired and stressed, with blood-shot eyes, and bags that could compete with CM Punk's. I like the VH1 Chris Jericho, who talks about all the great stuff from the 80s. Out of character, he's actually pretty cool. You can follow him on Twitter as @IAmJericho, but be warned, amidst his regular BSing, he does a LOT of album promotion for Fozzy.

 

[Flatfoot]

I'm a bit worried about the Undertaker too. I refuse to believe he's too old to be the REAL demon of death valley, I remember in the 90's when he simply told McMahon that the WWF was now his, and there was not much Vince could do about it. He's still the same DEADMAN, but he just seems a lot more tame.

I'm actually surprised he's the champion, right now, because gimmick-wise, he's become kind of a bloated fat-cat that nobody can really mess with. He IS getting older, and for a gimmick that's supposed to be immortal, over time it's becoming less and less convincing. Plus, there's no epic battles with the Mankinds, the Kanes, or anyone big enough to challenge him. The Great Khali became more of a sideshow, and I didn't think feuding with the Big Show helped him any, ever. When Big Show can knock him out with one punch, that takes a lot from his image. I kinda miss the days of the Ministry, where he crucified Stephanie MacMahon to a huge Undertaker symbol. Then there was also the "American Badass" days, where I think he exhibited better mic skills, like this gross clip I just watched the other day:

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I wonder if the "streak" will ever be broken, or if the WWE will let him retire as an unbreakable legend.

 

[SlaverTickler]

i disagree HHH drew heat because he was in the attitude era and was against 2 of the biggest faces in history (Rock and Austin) it was easier to draw heat for anyone against them than any other time in wrestling history. HHH was always better as a face

He gained most of his heat for being Mr. Stephanie McMahon.

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

still say the best heel of all time is randy orton, he has gone after legends (great heel work).. hes taken out cena,dx, and even mcmahon himself. He cuts amazing promo's and puts on great matches. I personally think the heels in the buisness now are better than ever before. There werent many good heels in the attitude era and i cant think of another heel who has gotten more heat and put on the calibar of matches that orton has. Think about all orton has already done and then think he has at least 10 more good years in him. If i was making a list of the top 5 this is how it would be

1) Orton

2) the rock (he would be 1 but he went from heel to face to many times)

3) HHH (same as above)

4) Ted Dibiase

5) Jericho

This is an impossible list to make but your youth doesn`t serve you well on this subject .

Jericho has switched too many times to qualify on this list as well . Flair was the ultimate heel for decades except in Carolinas .

Terry Funk , Kevin Sullivan , Harley Race, Cowboy Bob Orton , The Koloffs , Larry Zybisco , Gorgeous George , King Kong Bundy , Iron sheik , are just a FEW off the top of my head that were top heels WAY LONGER than most of the recent guys on your list . Orton even looks like he is not a true heel just by recent crowd reactions especially against Sheamus

Plus take into consideration that these '' new type heels '' like Orton rarely wrestle a 15 minute match except for major pay-per-views

 

[The Fallen Angel]

This is an impossible list to make but your youth doesn`t serve you well on this subject .

Jericho has switched too many times to qualify on this list as well . Flair was the ultimate heel for decades except in Carolinas .

Terry Funk , Kevin Sullivan , Harley Race, Cowboy Bob Orton , The Koloffs , Larry Zybisco , Gorgeous George , King Kong Bundy , Iron sheik , are just a FEW off the top of my head that were top heels WAY LONGER than most of the recent guys on your list . Orton even looks like he is not a true heel just by recent crowd reactions especially against Sheamus

Plus take into consideration that these '' new type heels '' like Orton rarely wrestle a 15 minute match except for major pay-per-views

Im not talking wrestling ablility but i mean in general the sense of being a true heel. While i know that people will always disagree i dont think heels from the past worked half as hard as they do now to draw heat, the promoters essentially made you hate them they didnt do much to garner the reaction, but were just billed as a heel.

So i feel that if you are setting a list of top heels it should only include heels from the past 15-20 years, these heels actually do things to make you hate through promos and what not, where as a simple low blow or using your feet on the ropes to win would make you a heel.

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

Im not talking wrestling ablility but i mean in general the sense of being a true heel. While i know that people will always disagree i dont think heels from the past worked half as hard as they do now to draw heat, the promoters essentially made you hate them they didnt do much to garner the reaction, but were just billed as a heel.

So i feel that if you are setting a list of top heels it should only include heels from the past 15-20 years, these heels actually do things to make you hate through promos and what not, where as a simple low blow or using your feet on the ropes to win would make you a heel.

sorry , but have to respectully disagree

you are young enough to have only seen this new style bigger is better type of wrestling; of which a good portion of it is crap!

Kevin Sullivan is the ultimate heel in every sense of the word. I mean olde school Kevin Sullivan ; not Varsity Club or any off that type of stuff .

 

[john getty]

I don't think you can fairly compare today's WWE with the attitude era of WWF, for some reason today's RAW and SMACKDOWN seem to feel more castrated, if you know what I mean. Then I found out why they're all watching their "p"s and "q"s, it's now PG 13 for some reason. For a while these new wrestlers got on my nerves, but now I just realize they're doing the best they can under the circumstances. I hardly bother watching it anymore.

 

[The Fallen Angel]

sorry , but have to respectully disagree

you are young enough to have only seen this new style bigger is better type of wrestling; of which a good portion of it is crap!

Kevin Sullivan is the ultimate heel in every sense of the word. I mean olde school Kevin Sullivan ; not Varsity Club or any off that type of stuff .

while normally i would defer to you on all things wrestling because your knowledge is years beyond mine, this is something i really believe that i am right on

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

while normally i would defer to you on all things wrestling because your knowledge is years beyond mine, this is something i really believe that i am right on

I can appreciate where you are coming from

Let me give you a little perspective from where I am coming from . Back before the WWE became a monopoly and the only game in town I believe wrestlers had to work much harder to stand out and be noticed. Especially in the days of the regional territories; which was in my opinion the golden age of wrestling. Wrestlers had to hone their craft and comeup with more original material . Nowadays the wrestlers are handed their gimmicks to them . Wwf made a legend already in Dusty Rhodes in the ''son of a plumber'' really ? seriously ?

Look at todays politics in wrestling . Look to who HHH is married to ?!?

Look at the young stars in the WWE now getting their big breaks . Their lasts names are Rhodes , DiBiase, and Orton . oh wait there dads were legends or in some cases their families were legendary . These guys were handed these top gigs rather than climbing the ladder like you did in the old days.

And that isn`t saying Orton isn`t good...because he really really is ; but he still didn`t have to earn it like those did before him

 

[The Fallen Angel]

I can appreciate where you are coming from

Let me give you a little perspective from where I am coming from . Back before the WWE became a monopoly and the only game in town I believe wrestlers had to work much harder to stand out and be noticed. Especially in the days of the regional territories; which was in my opinion the golden age of wrestling. Wrestlers had to hone their craft and comeup with more original material . Nowadays the wrestlers are handed their gimmicks to them . Wwf made a legend already in Dusty Rhodes in the ''son of a plumber'' really ? seriously ?

Look at todays politics in wrestling . Look to who HHH is married to ?!?

Look at the young stars in the WWE now getting their big breaks . Their lasts names are Rhodes , DiBiase, and Orton . oh wait there dads were legends or in some cases their families were legendary . These guys were handed these top gigs rather than climbing the ladder like you did in the old days.

And that isn`t saying Orton isn`t good...because he really really is ; but he still didn`t have to earn it like those did before him

and i think this is what is getting us caught up, im not saying that wrestlers back when didnt work harder, i really dont think you can argue that they didnt. However i am saying that no matter how they got there the characters, especially the heels are light years beyond those of old. Therefore in my mind making them the better heels

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

and i think this is what is getting us caught up, im not saying that wrestlers back when didnt work harder, i really dont think you can argue that they didnt. However i am saying that no matter how they got there the characters, especially the heels are light years beyond those of old. Therefore in my mind making them the better heels

if thats the case then why do many in and around the industry really believe pro-wrestling is in a MAJOR decline and TNa especially trying so hard to change their product . Even WWE dumped a crappy product in ECW ; they didn`t do this because of great ratings for the show .

I saw that last years Wrestlmania PAY per view dropped below a million buys which was unheard of before last year

 

[The Fallen Angel]

if thats the case then why do many in and around the industry really believe pro-wrestling is in a MAJOR decline and TNa especially trying so hard to change their product . Even WWE dumped a crappy product in ECW ; they didn`t do this because of great ratings for the show .

I saw that last years Wrestlmania PAY per view dropped below a million buys which was unheard of before last year

no doubt that it has lost its past mystique, but i dont think that holds anything againist the characters, the wrestling has dropped off but i believe the characters are stronger

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

no doubt that it has lost its past mystique, but i dont think that holds anything againist the characters, the wrestling has dropped off but i believe the characters are stronger

See I do they its a combination of the wrestling dropping off and the lack of innovative new creative character personnas.

I also think that storylines change WAY TOO QUICKLY without any closure and people get confused to what is supposed to be going on .

Let me see.... he`s Festus ... no he`s cousin festus; wait a minute , he `s the fake Kane.... no , now he`s Luke Gallows ... and two weeks from now he may be Francis the wrestling ballerina

 

[thetmfobserver]

and two weeks from now he may be Francis the wrestling ballerina

I'd watch that in a heartbeat. Although I will say the Straight Edge Society is one of my favorite things going on right now. Though that's mainly just because CM Punk is ridiculous.

 

[10 armed tkler]

SES is the only good thing going on now. jack Swagger cash in was horrible. and he loses week after week to top caliber(and Morrison) opponents and wins cleanly over Orton also a top star. That did not make sense.

WWE does not make any sense...

 

[thetmfobserver]

Well, I can understand, to an extent, what's going on with Swagger.

Swagger is a top third star, in the eyes of WWE brass. He's good enough now to be able to start putting over some "top half" guys, such as John Morrison. Morrison is a guy that Vince is just hoping turns into a HBK type, so having him beat Swagger raises his own star power without completely bashing Swagger's.

Then, you have Orton (top 5 talent) put over Swagger, which helps Swagger without hurting Orton. This also helps Morrison, because he's now beaten an even bigger star.

With Batista likely done, and HHH's / Taker's best days well behind them, WWE needs the next level of superstars. Swagger's close (again, to the brass, not necessarily to me), and Morrison is a good year or so away.

WWE does have a tendency to lack common sense, but this actually works in my mind.

 

[Flatfoot]

Well, I can understand, to an extent, what's going on with Swagger.

Swagger is a top third star, in the eyes of WWE brass. He's good enough now to be able to start putting over some "top half" guys, such as John Morrison. Morrison is a guy that Vince is just hoping turns into a HBK type, so having him beat Swagger raises his own star power without completely bashing Swagger's.

Then, you have Orton (top 5 talent) put over Swagger, which helps Swagger without hurting Orton. This also helps Morrison, because he's now beaten an even bigger star.

With Batista likely done, and HHH's / Taker's best days well behind them, WWE needs the next level of superstars. Swagger's close (again, to the brass, not necessarily to me), and Morrison is a good year or so away.

WWE does have a tendency to lack common sense, but this actually works in my mind.

What you say kinda makes sense. I'm still kind of amazed at the push Swagger's getting, but I guess it's working. The way he carries himself still doesn't seem "natural", but his mic skills are somewhat improving.

 

[SlaverTickler]

SES is the only good thing going on now. jack Swagger cash in was horrible. and he loses week after week to top caliber(and Morrison) opponents and wins cleanly over Orton also a top star. That did not make sense.

WWE does not make any sense...

Well this just shows you that either Swagger is in the Triple H camp, or Randy Orton has pissed somebody off in office. You want to know what make no sense, firing a guy who has fantastic in ring skills, mic skills, and who was never give any real chance to show his stuff because of politics and a fat glass ceiling, who they recently fired. Shelton Benjamin. This is a young guy with the looks and the moves, and he is a better performer on any given night then Randy "Daddy I Want Out of the Army" Orton, "The Son-In-Law", or even later day HBGay. But hay we all know that youngster the Undertaker really needed the nudge from beating Shawn in that Streak VS Career match, it's really skyrocketed his career.

 

[thetmfobserver]

What you say kinda makes sense. I'm still kind of amazed at the push Swagger's getting, but I guess it's working. The way he carries himself still doesn't seem "natural", but his mic skills are somewhat improving.

Jack Swagger is the kind of wrestler who a manager like Bobby Heenan would have had a field day with. All the talent in the world, but not the best talker. If WWE ever gets tired of Matt Striker as an announcer (note: they should, immediately), put him with Swagger. He can use all those big words, and Swagger can concentrate on wrestling.

In terms of Shelton Benjamin, I'm an incredibly huge fan of his in ring-work, but I don't recall ever hearing a good promo from him. He wasn't bad; but you just tuned out whenever he spoke. Another guy who would have benefited from a manager. Plus, he's African-American, which if you haven't figured out yet, isn't exactly Vinnie Mac's preferred ethnicity.

 

[SlaverTickler]

In terms of Shelton Benjamin, I'm an incredibly huge fan of his in ring-work, but I don't recall ever hearing a good promo from him. He wasn't bad; but you just tuned out whenever he spoke. Another guy who would have benefited from a manager. Plus, he's African-American, which if you haven't figured out yet, isn't exactly Vinnie Mac's preferred ethnicity.

Don't forget, it's a well know fact that African American (males) are found of Canadian white women with broken noses.

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For the record... who could blame him lol.

 

[thetmfobserver]

Any thoughts on the Draft?

I fast forwarded through most of the 3 hour Raw, and it didn't look like there were any major surprises. I'm bummed Edge and Christian are still on different shows. They're either waiting for Christian to be a bigger star, or they don't think anyone would want to see one of the best duos in sports reunited.

 

[DEV]

A very good Raw all in all with the Hart Dynasty getting the belts. It seems as if they're setting up Smackdown as the place to build stars though. They're main event was gutted.