Tickling vs Pain

[Ticklerguy4u]

I've seen this clip. The girl knew what she was doing. Also the guy was a professional. I used to know women in bdsm. You can tell he was a professional because he didn't keep on her for more then a second i(only once from what I saw) He even told her it was a low setting. If he was sadistic he would of put it on high. The fact that she only screamed when it touched showed again that she was waiting for it. If it was unconsensual , she would be screaming through the whole thing trying to get out of her bonds. As for why does pain turn certain people on...it just does. There was also minor knife play which some women have been known to like the feel of a knife on their body. I've heard some people fantasize about being raped..but only in role-playing. However....if it was done by a stranger in an alley they would be just as terrified as any other person. In the bdsm world, there is rules just like when a woman is tied up and tickled. If you don't understand..that is fine. No one is asking you too, but if you don't that doesn't mean you are somehow better because it doesn't turn you on. I personally don't understand the foot fetish when there is so much more of the female's body to enjoy..but that is me. It would not be right for me to call those who think its great...weird or a freak because I don't understand it. Bottomline, if you have never been involved or been around bdsm..then you have no opinion..because you speaking from a outsider's point of view. Just like someone speaking bad about tickling fetish. IF they are not involved ..they have no right to judge. If anyone wants to pm about it..go ahead. I'll be glad to answer any questions.

 

[Redmage]

I commend you guys on using logic and patience in your posts. Especially you, Redmage, for not stooping low to flames and personal attacks, like those brought against you. It must be very tiring to argue with a wall.

It's tiring only if you expect the wall to listen. I don't. I'm not attempting to persuade Drew, Susannah, or Johnny - as I told Drew in my first post on this thread, a man's got to know his limitations. Talking sense into rocks is definitely one of mine.

I'm here just to correct the many misrepresentations of fact that crop up in their posts, so that anyone who wants to wade through this thread can get some accurate information along the way.

my agreement idea was to agree to disagree, stand up and face the fact that neither of you is going to admit defeat so settle on a truce...

I hear you, LTF. I don't really think a "truce" in the ordinary sense is possible with Drew. That's why I put him on ignore to begin with. Nevertheless, I understand what you're saying and I agree to an extent.

I'm not really arguing with Drew any longer. Judging from the snippets I've seen in the quote-backs his argument at this point has been pared down to nothing more than an unsupported assertion that BDSM is bad, bad, bad. There's really no arguing with that - it's like someone saying that they don't like chocolate ice cream. You can't talk them into liking it, and if they start jumping up and down and calling chocolate evil, well, what are you going to say to that? So in that sense you're right - it's a hopeless and pointless debate, and that's not where I'm directing my energy any more. Like I said to Bonds, I'm just here to make sure the facts don't get lost in the noise from the other side of the fence.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

I just believe if a person doesn't know what they are talking about then they shouldn't talk. I will defend any of my bdsm friends just as quickly as I would defend any of tmf friends.

 

[Fred46]

060223 TMF Tickling Discussion Tickling Versus Pain

Mimi's point is well taken that tickling can be abusive. One of my fears is that I might get carried away while tickling and make someone angry.

I saw a "Dear Abby" column about that years ago. A woman wrote that her boyfriend tied her to a chair and tickled her feet. She laughed at first, but eventually cried. He stopped, untied her, and begged her to forgive him.

She asked Abby whether she ought to take him back. Abby said the writer had been "battered," and advised against forgiving the man. My feeling was that the guy's heart was in the right place, he just got carried away, and ought to be forgiven.

Redmage, I am not attempting to sit in judgment over you regarding that pain BDSM clip. I understand your explanations that for some people some kinds of pain can be pleasurable, while for them tickling can be a "hard limit." I understand that pain BDSM is consensual, and does not imply an endorsement of the BTK killer or other abusers.

Still, as I said before, this is a tickling forum and I think it would be best to stick to that theme. I know that you posted warnings, but I think people have a right to be able to click away around here without running into something like that. I think you should post tickling clips instead.

Fred46

 

[Redmage]

Redmage, I am not attempting to sit in judgment over you regarding that pain BDSM clip. I understand your explanations that for some people some kinds of pain can be pleasurable, while for them tickling can be a "hard limit." I understand that pain BDSM is consensual, and does not imply an endorsement of the BTK killer or other abusers.

Thanks, Fred. That's really all I'm asking.

Still, as I said before, this is a tickling forum and I think it would be best to stick to that theme. I know that you posted warnings, but I think people have a right to be able to click away around here without running into something like that. I think you should post tickling clips instead.

I have posted tickling clips and photos - some of them my own work. However the moderators have pointed out that this is NOT just a tickling forum - and they should know. As for what people might run into, if they heed my warnings they won't run into anything more frightening than the title of the thread. So while I understand your concerns I fear we're just not going to agree on this one.

 

[Johnny Ticklish]

Well, according to the people whose business it is to define mental illness, it actually isn't. You're entitled to your own opinion, of course, Johnny, but you probably ought to be aware, at least in your own mind, that that's all it is. The professionals disagree.

I don't need a meteorologist to help me recognize rain when I see it. I don't need a seizmologist to help me recognize an earthquake when I feel it. And I sure as shit don't need a psychiatrist to tell me whether or not a desire to give/or receive pain is a healthy emotional state. Some things just don't need a professional assessment. 🙄

"Clearly damaged," according to whom, Johnny? There's not a shred of evidence that non-pathological masochism is the result of "emotional damage," and I assure you people have looked. So, once again, this is you insisting that the universe is as you wish it were, rather than seeing it as it is.

Who said anything about non-pathological? Remember? I'm one of the people who said it's sick behavior? And saying there is no evidence is like saying there is no evidence that the sky is blue. Some truths are as plain as the light of day, Redmage. It's you who refuse to see the universe in any way that challenges what you think you know.

If she's autistic then there's good reason to believe that she can't give consent, Johnny. That's why such things are considered reprehensible - and why BDSM with clear-minded, unimpaired adults is not.

By the same token, there's good reason to believe that someone emotionally disturbed to the point of needing pain for sexual satisfaction can't give consent either.

This issue of consent, and the right to choose, seems to be the hardest concept for folks on your side of this debate to accept. It's as though, since you can't imagine doing such things yourselves, you can't get your minds around the fact that levelheaded people of good conscience can do so.

I know all about consent, and I'm all for the concept. You only think I don't because it helps you to rationalize your abhorant behavior which is anything but level headed.

Yes, I'm clearing up the mistakes put out by people like you, Johnny. There have been so many on that side, it keeps me busy.

Oh, that's rich. Buddy, you need to remove the catarracts from your own eyes before you can see clearly enough to help anybody else.

And yes, I was in fact demonstrating (pretty clearly, at that) that BDSM is not what you and Drew think it is. I don't expect to open minds that have been sealed off from air and light, but I think it might show another side of things to those who are willing to look at matters objectively.

Redmage, tell me something truthfully. Does the phrase "know-it-all" mean anything to you? I would love to know where you ever got the idea you have the market cornered on understanding BDSM, that we need you to "explain" it to us. Does your head even fit through a standard doorway? It ain't that difficult. Elementary school kids understand it, for Christ's sake. But of course it's a critical cog in your engine of justification for you to insist that Drew's and my and anybody else's objections to this aberrant behavior are born out of ignorance. Anybody who sees what you do as wrong just doesn't understand. After all, who could understand the great and powerful intellect that is Redmage, expert in all things tickling and BDSM?

You know what, I wasn't screaming until you got here, Johnny. But, this one pissed me off enough to respond. If I want to be tied up and tickled until I scream and cry, that means I have a "damaged emotional landscape"? Or does this only apply if I want "pain" (as defined by you) until I scream and cry? Could you be any more judgmental? Or patronizing?!

Oh, well let me just fall on the floor and apologize profusely for having an opinion that differs from yours! Hey, I didn't say a damned thing about tickling, so I don't know where this venom is coming from. I'm saying that anybody who is deliberately looking to get hurt isn't playing with a full deck.

And speaking of judgement, looks like yours was off by a mile. I noticed at the beginning of this thread when you only had Drew to deal with you said nobody was jumping on his "bandwagon." Then as soon as others started voicing opinions similar to Drew's, you disappear. What's the matter? Don't like a level playing field? are you only comfortable engaging in debate when it's 10 to 1?

And I'm amazed that you fail to see the world of difference between an abusive relationship, and a consentual master-slave one. Abuse leaves lasting psychological scars. A consentual relationship in BDSM is happy and fulfilling. You calling them the same thing is an slap in the face to abused wives and children everywhere.

Master-slave relationship? Two words for you, darlin. Emancipation Proclomation! We residents of the 21st century don't do slavery any more. Happy and fulfilling? Try antiquated and barbaric. No, I don't see the difference because there isn't any! Bottom line in both situations is you've got people needlessly brutalizing others to get their kicks.

 

[Redmage]

I don't need a meteorologist to help me recognize rain when I see it. I don't need a seizmologist to help me recognize an earthquake when I feel it. And I sure as shit don't need a psychiatrist to tell me whether or not a desire to give/or receive pain is a healthy emotional state.

No, you don't. That's your problem.

Who said anything about non-pathological? Remember? I'm one of the people who said it's sick behavior?

Yes I know. That's your mistake. There's a book you might want to look up - the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual - Fourth Edition, Revised (also known as DSM-IV-R among mental health professionals). It's the standard reference that defines all sorts of recognized mental illness, and gives the criteria used to diagnose them. I make the distinction between pathological and non-pathological masochism because that's what the professionals do. Non-pathological masochism is an important distinction because, by definition, it is not a problem that requires treatment. The mere fact that this form of masochism is recognized to exist proves that your blanket statements about masochism are mistaken. It really is just that simple, Johnny.

Some truths are as plain as the light of day, Redmage.

Some are. Others are merely the sun in your eyes, and not "truth" at all.

Redmage, tell me something truthfully. Does the phrase "know-it-all" mean anything to you?

Yes indeed. To me, it suggests someone who claims to understand something that they have never done or studied. So I hope you give the idea some thought.

 

[Nite_Giggler]

I chose to ignore this thread at first, refusing to respond to what originated as an excuse for Drew to flame Redmage and try, once again, to be a backseat moderator. I now see it has grown quite a bit, and I got a few laughs from the unshakable ignorance some posters have displayed.

Yes. I'm apalled that somebody would be so ignorant as question the moral tenants of physical abuse. What was he thinking?

I briefly considered writing long winded replies to what has been posted, but I realize it would be an exercise in futility. Besides, there is not much I can add that wasn't already said by Redmage, Mimi, Myriads, lk70, and others. I commend you guys on using logic and patience in your posts. Especially you, Redmage, for not stooping low to flames and personal attacks, like those brought against you. It must be very tiring to argue with a wall.

And that's not a personal attack? This is not a long-winded response? But you are right. Redmage doesn't use personal attacks. He just floats along on his little cloud of superiority speaking in his ever-condescending manner. Give me a personal attack any day of the week

Unfortunately, this argument is impossible to win in the normal sense. The tactics Drew and his supporters are using are very similar to those of modern day Nazis, the KKK, other racists, and bible crazed creationists. (Before anyone whines, I'm not comparing you to racists, just the debate tactics you're employing.) Just like with racists, it's impossible to use logic or reasoning to "win". All you can do is let them know they are opposed, ignore them, and hope they go away.

Or you could actually consider their viewpoint, if you're a risk taker.

I find it amazing that anyone with a sexual interest in tickling (which many people would find very odd) could be so close minded and stubborn.

So do I, but something tells me we're thinking of different people.

 

[Redmage]

Yes. I'm apalled that somebody would be so ignorant as question the moral tenants of physical abuse. What was he thinking?

Physical abuse has tenants? Could you make a ballpark guess at their rent?

I think the ignorance comes into play when people try to define something they know nothing about as "physical abuse." Ignorance is lack of knowledge, after all.

 

[LindyHopper]

Redmage, tell me something truthfully. Does the phrase "know-it-all" mean anything to you? I would love to know where you ever got the idea you have the market cornered on understanding BDSM, that we need you to "explain" it to us. Does your head even fit through a standard doorway?

He's probably not going to bother with this one, but I will.

I know a lot of people believe that anyone's opinion is of equal worth, because we're all equal as people. However, I'm of the school of thought that If you know a lot about something from personal experience and/or because you've spent a lot of time studying it, your opinion should carry more weight than the opinion of someone who's never studied or experienced it. To pick some random example, since I've spent a good amount of time studying the psychometric properties of IQ tests, I feel qualified to comment on them, and I do think my opinion counts for more than that of someone who just took one off the web and got a number.

Oh, well let me just fall on the floor and apologize profusely for having an opinion that differs from yours! Hey, I didn't say a damned thing about tickling, so I don't know where this venom is coming from. I'm saying that anybody who is deliberately looking to get hurt isn't playing with a full deck.

Hey man, that wasn't just an opinion you were expressing. It was a personal insult to anyone who enjoys consentual BDSM. You also have the right to say that black people suck, but don't be surprised if some people call you out on it.

About the tickling example - I made the point to illustrate that screaming and crying can be the result of either tickle torture or pain, and therefore should be equally protected. I'm sorry you didn't get it the first time.

And speaking of judgement, looks like yours was off by a mile. I noticed at the beginning of this thread when you only had Drew to deal with you said nobody was jumping on his "bandwagon." Then as soon as others started voicing opinions similar to Drew's, you disappear. What's the matter? Don't like a level playing field? are you only comfortable engaging in debate when it's 10 to 1?

I didn't keep posting because I saw that all the other believers in womens' ability to make free choices were doing a perfectly good job. I try hard not to post simply to repeat things that other people are saying very well.

And about this debate.... I haven't been keeping count, but I'd say it's still closer to, say, 5 to 1 than it is to even.

Master-slave relationship? Two words for you, darlin. Emancipation Proclomation! We residents of the 21st century don't do slavery any more. Happy and fulfilling? Try antiquated and barbaric. No, I don't see the difference because there isn't any! Bottom line in both situations is you've got people needlessly brutalizing others to get their kicks.

News flash, buddy - the kicks are mutual. Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean it's impossible.


Hey - I thought that answer was pretty calm, didn't you guys? 🙂 Your regularly-scheduled LindyHopper has returned. 😉

 

[isabeau]

now just because i said that the clip made me cringe doesnt mean i was judging at all. to me its all a matter of personal preference. i've also watched tickling clips that made me cringe. especially when using the hummingbird. eeks because i can only imagine how that tool would feel on my feet. so when i say it makes me cringe, thats not necessarily a bad thing. since i have never experienced the wasp, i have no idea of the pain involved, however Red told me its like a bee sting. welllllllll i've never been stung so i have no idea what that how that would feel.

and once again as i have always said, dont watch the clip if it will upset you. the title of that clip was self explanatory i thought.

isabeau

 

[BellaRisa]

My turn.

Um...sure, if you think that tickling and pain are the same thing. Talk to an abuse survivor and see if she agrees with you.

Abuse survivor who agrees with Mimi here. Hi. How are ya .

No idea how I missed this thread up 'til now, but here I am. And I'm a tad annoyed by the narrow mindedness I'm seeing.

I'm a 33 yr old grown woman, mother and business owner. I'm also an abuse survivor, and last I checked I've been black for years now 😛 And while I'm forever grateful to Mr. Lincoln, I embrace BDSM, servitude as a long term submissive/slave, and I enjoy what many of you would consider VERY intense pain. And before you draw any wrong corellations, my longings began *before* the abuse started. And my degree in psychology, along with my common sense and reasonably high self esteem, tell me that I'm mentally sound and quite the happy little individual. Enough folks here have met me to vouch for that statement . It's appalling to me how many folks here can't seem to grok the difference between abuse and intense consentual sensation. Folks, abuse is something you don't want and can't control. If you both want it and you're not harming anyone else it's just plain fun. Why is that concept so difficult? 😕 And don't EVEN try to tell me that those of us who enjoy such things have 'issues'. We're some of the most unrepressed, free and secure individuals you'll ever meet. And good for us.

Susannah and others: people who are abused are hurt against their will.[/I] They have no choice, and are unwilling. And the abuser is doing it purely for their own satisfaction. That is completely different from those of us who not only *want* and *crave* our proclivities, we often plan our evening around them and dress for the occasion . Seriously, if you were a fly on the wall for what my boyfriend does to me with canes and oak paddles during a "naughty schoolgirl" night you'd be one unhappy little fly. And if you saw the tears on my cheeks and heard me begging, you'd probably call it abuse. And you'd be dead wrong. Why? Because I love it, and he loves it far more because of my pleasure than his own. And because the second I don't like it we're done. And because it's usually MY idea. MY fantasies. And because it's *fun*. When was the last time you heard someone in an abuse survivor's meeting talk about how much fun they had, about the endorphins and the amazing flight their minds take?

Can you finally see the difference?

Funny, if you nay-sayers saw the way I look when my sadistic little personal trainer is squeezing "just three more reps" out of me on the quad machine you wouldn't blink. But that same look on the face of a girl in a BDSM vid causes head shaking and finger wagging. Think about that.

Consentual pain is not something I fully understand, I'll never pretend that I get it 100%. I just know what research I've done, the doctors and practitioners I've spoken with at length, and my 8 yrs in the BDSM/spanking/tickling communities. And of course my own pleasures. And I know that just as there's a difference between rape and mutual lovemaking the size of the grand canyon, there's another canyon between abuse and consentual, highly intense sexual play. One, I want. The other, I don't want. Surely you can understand that.

I'll be blunt: you folks don't get to decide for me, or anyone else, what should stimulate us sexually unless it's harmful to you or someone who can't give consent. A dead body or a pet cannot give consent, as non-sentient beings. A child cannot give fully mature rational consent. I fully agree with folks who are repulsed by such things, as we should be (though I get tired of folks trotting this out every time something like this comes up when you know it's not a proper argument). But a happy adult who likes the cattle prod and makes money in videos is no different to me than those nuts we call football players and boxers who beat the living tar out of one another and get their own faces and fingers and legs and toes broken, prematurely aging and deteriorating their brains and bodies for money. A whole lotta money. Then there's the folks who jump out of perfectly good airplanes...find me a difference, please. I haven't found it. We ALL love a good rush, how we get it is individual but it's still all about the endorphins. Deny that if you will, but you know it's true.

Folks, just because something is too much for you doesn't mean it's no fun for me. Please remember that.

Bella

 

[ShadowTklr]

Man am I late!!!

I read through much of this thread, and am amazed that this disparity in understanding still exists amongst us.

Bella, I could not have constructed a more concise and easy-to-understand post myself. I think you've made your point as plainly and directly as needs to be said, and you did it with insight, class and an absence of self righteousness.

I am curious though. Is there anyone here who believes that a consenting adult does not have the RIGHT to make such decisions for him or herself? If so, why?

 

[isabeau]

I read through much of this thread, and am amazed that this disparity in understanding still exists amongst us.

Bella, I could not have constructed a more concise and easy-to-understand post myself. I think you've made your point as plainly and directly as needs to be said, and you did it with insight, class and an absence of self righteousness.

I am curious though. Is there anyone here who believes that a consenting adult does not have the RIGHT to make such decisions for him or herself? If so, why?

hiiiiiiiii my wonderful friend, i was just getting ready to respond back to Bella, telling her the exact same thing, but as usual, you have done a far better job than myself.

i have not the right whatsoever to tell anyone what decisions they make for him or herself. heck i cant even make my own decisions, without screwing up

Bella very nicely put, i havent had the pleasure of meeting you before, but you sound like a terrific person and a true survivor. kudos to you

isabeau

 

[BellaRisa]

II sure as shit don't need a psychiatrist to tell me whether or not a desire to give/or receive pain is a healthy emotional state. Some things just don't need a professional assessment. 🙄

there's good reason to believe that someone emotionally disturbed to the point of needing pain for sexual satisfaction can't give consent either.


I'm saying that anybody who is deliberately looking to get hurt isn't playing with a full deck.

Master-slave relationship? Two words for you, darlin. Emancipation Proclomation! We residents of the 21st century don't do slavery any more. Happy and fulfilling? Try antiquated and barbaric. No, I don't see the difference because there isn't any! Bottom line in both situations is you've got people needlessly brutalizing others to get their kicks.

Um, Johnny?

Can you please give me an idea of where any of this is coming from?

I mean surely you have personal experience with adult individuals, like myself, who enjoy both giving and receiving pain sexually, and are in 21st century Master/slave relationships (7 yrs this May). And you talked to us at length and observed how we live sufficiently to pass such judgements about our ability to give consent and the fullness of our collective and individual decks. Please share your information with me, because all this time I thought I was a happy healthy woman with a great life and a rational mindset. Enlighten me, please. I'm listening.

Bella

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Somewhere in between the two, I guess. But hey, I take what I can get.

Now, Drew, do you feel that the women ticklers who tickle you who are the more sadistic ones are "Brutal and savage and twisted" because they are getting pleasure from tickling you so intensely?

 

[siamese dream]

yikes there's a lot of strong feelings flying about on this thread!

My feelings always were that two consenting adults can do whatever they like with each other. A lot of it I would probably find disturbing and weird and gross, but that's just me, not them. If the person is being raped, tortured, beaten or anything against their will, this is an entirely seperate issue from someone who fantasizes about being raped, tortured and beaten and acts out these fantasies with a consenting partner. It's not acting out a fantasy when someone who didn't want it is being harmed, it's criminal. When you watch those clips sometimes it's hard to understand the line between the two because someone in pain is going to react like their in pain, whether they enjoy it or not, and as empathetic creatures we can feel shocked and upset as if we just witnessed a real crime being committed against someone. But you've gotta remember what you're witnessing is a video fantasy situation intended for people who like this sort of thing, not a documentation of real abuse.

My advice is to not go seeking clips where the content is inevitably going to upset or offend you. I haven't seen any of the video stuff in question, btw. I don't really get into the videos, I like reading tickling stories better.

Let me compare the pain stuff to tickling a little bit... a lot of people, if they saw a tickling video where the lee was shouting "NO, STOP!" throughout would probably feel the same sort of empathy for the lee as drew felt for the woman being stung in the clip he saw. It might be hard for them to imagine that the "No, stop" is all part of the game for the lee. When I get tied up and tickled, I always end up yelling "No, don't, stop" etc. when in reality I have no desire for the tickler to stop 😀 Sometimes the more I beg the more exciting it gets for me... I can't really explain why, but most of you should know what I mean by this. Same sort of idea for the people who like pain, they just like a different sort of stimulation than I like.

I will say that I thought the movie Secretary was one of the most romantic and sexy movies I've ever seen, and it has no tickling and is all about a submissive woman and a dominant man. I even have more of a fondness for being slapped on the butt after watching this 😉 So there are some aspects of the S & M lifestyle that I can find appealing, even if I don't practice them myself.

Also, the people talking about how wrong it is for men to want to harm women...what about women who want to harm men? Is it "okay" for a dominatrix to beat the living hell out of a guy, just because men are generally considered bigger, stronger and more aggressive? I understand why it's such a touchy area when you're talking about a man inflicting pain on a woman, because there's such a long history throughout human existence of women being oppressed and controlled by men. We live in a different time now and people can do pretty much whatever they want. A sub decides she's tired of being a sub, all she has to say is "Screw you, I'm going home" (to quote Cartman) and her sub days are over. This is very, very different from the victim who has no choice over what happens to him or her.

 

[drew70]

Now, Drew, do you feel that the women ticklers who tickle you who are the more sadistic ones are "Brutal and savage and twisted" because they are getting pleasure from tickling you so intensely?

No, I wouldn't describe them as brutal or savage. Maybe a little twisted, but that's okay. 😀

Look, I see where you're going with this so let me just speed things up a bit. You're trying to make me see that on the one hand, I denounce Redmage and his ilk for taking pleasure in hurting women, while on the other hand I laud female ticklers who take delight in tickle torturing people like me. I agree that strictly on the surface, that does seem to be a double standard, and maybe it actually is. So let's go a little deeper into it and see.

First of all, comes this question: is the joy that comes from a ler tickling someone tantamount to the joy a sadist experiences in hurting somebody? On some basic levels I think they can be said to be parallel. In each case the somebody is doing something to the other that stimulates a reaction to a particular sensation.

But as the two types of sensations escalate, the differences between them begin to widen dramatically, until we reach that point in which it becomes necessary to harm or injure the victim to achieve the desired levels of pain. This is not the case with tickling. Properly restrained, there is little to no possibility to be injured by tickling. If the Ler scratches too hard and breaks the skin, well we've moved from tickling into pain.

In short, the pursuit of pain is a much more dangerous venture particularly as the recipient develops resistances and requires more and greater degrees of it. As time goes on the desire for pain begins to conflict with the natural instinct for self-preservation, and if continually fed by participating in harsher bdsm sessions, ultimately wins out. Now we've got somebody who is willing to suffer injury, and risk irreversably harm all in the pursuit of sexual fulfillment. I believe this is what Johnny was referring to, rather callously as "not playing with a full deck."

The reason Redmage is under such attack is because he knows all this is true, but is more concerned in his satisfying is own lusts for inflicting pain, rather than encouraging people to get help, while at the same time doing his best to convince the community that bdsm play is no different than tickle play, and that the objections I and many others have is because we don't "understand" bdsm, and that we're judgemental, and want to control what people do in the bedroom. I'll give him this, it's been a very effective smokescreen.

The reason it's been such an effective smokescreen is because most of the people here that dig tickling are overly sensitive about the "wierdness" of it. They're embarassed to tell people about it, because they don't want to be perceived as "weird or sick" when in actuality it's a perfectly natural and harmless engagement, particularly when compared to beds of nails and cattle prods. Consequently, nearly everybody here is reluctant to condemn what I daresay most of them clearly find offensive, because they feel they are just as "guilty" when in fact they don't even come close. Also it's so much more politically correct to just let people do what they want. Redmage and his supporters feed this line of thinking in order to justify what they do.

I don't expect bdsm to go away, nor do I condemn those involved in it. I don't deny I have a problem with Redmage, and I apologize if I've brought others into our personality conflict. All I can do is explain why I personally think violent erotica is wrong and let everybody make their own decisions. I've come under a lot of fire for doing so, but I think I've also learned alot about the psychology of the tickling community and why what seems so plainly heinous to me is so completely rationalized by people I know to be sensitive and intelligent. I hold no grudge against anybody with one obvious exception. As Myriads said, it's good for us to discuss these differences of opinion.

 

[ShadowTklr]

My advice is to not go seeking clips where the content is inevitably going to upset or offend you. I haven't seen any of the video stuff in question, btw. I don't really get into the videos, I like reading tickling stories better.

Nothing kills a perfectly good unreasonable argument better than sensibilities.

On that note: Who the hell let you in here?

 

[drew70]

My advice is to not go seeking clips where the content is inevitably going to upset or offend you.

I know you mean well but this is like the hundredth time this has been said. What needs to be understood is that the issues involved in this thread have little to nothing to do with people being offended. Most of us have seen far grittier portrayals of violence in movies and TV. One of my favorite shows is 24, which has some pretty intense scenes of violence. So no, it's not a matter of viewing something unpalatable.

No, the issues at least as I see them are a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum? b) Do we as a tickling community want the vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica? and c) Is violent bdsm abuse or legitimate play?

Yes, I know the kneejerk response is to say "don't look at material that you know will offend you," and that's always good advice, but we're trying to go a little deeper than that here. 🙂

 

[ShadowTklr]

I know you mean well but this is like the hundredth time this has been said. What needs to be understood is that the issues involved in this thread have little to nothing to do with people being offended. Most of us have seen far grittier portrayals of violence in movies and TV. One of my favorite shows is 24, which has some pretty intense scenes of violence. So no, it's not a matter of viewing something unpalatable.

No, the issues at least as I see them are a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum? b) Do we as a tickling community want the vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica? and c) Is violent bdsm abuse or legitimate play?

Yes, I know the kneejerk response is to say "don't look at material that you know will offend you," and that's always good advice, but we're trying to go a little deeper than that here. 🙂

Hi Drew. I swear I'm not being argumentative about this, but I would like to address your questions.

a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum?
While I understand completely what you're saying, the fact is that associated fetishes find their way in here all the time. Foot fetishism is perhaps the single largest associated, yet off-topic category on this forum, yet no one really complains about getting rid of all the non-tickling related foot pics. How about non-tickling related drawings?

b) Do we as a tickling community want the Vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica?
What makes you think they already don't? If you were to outright ban the posting of all other types of erotica on this forum, save for tickling related material, we would appeal to no one in the vanilla society. And you want to know something even stranger yet? BDSM has made far greater strides into mainstream America, than tickling ever has. Think of how many times you see movies which make reference to spanking, bondage, whips, handcuffs, blindfolds. How many actors and actresses have we seen in tight leather and whips, high heels, or who make discussion of such things in mainstream TV and movies.

Now think about how many times you've seen them talking about Tickle Torture with the same risque, naughty commentary. Drew, we're already playing second fiddle in exposure to mainstream America to the very BDSM practices that you are condemning.

Think about all the people you've known in your life who think that tickling is pure evil - sadistic torture that serves no one other than the tickler as he or she indulges their aberrant sexual appetites.

What I'd like you to consider is that vanilla society will not view us as "The enemy of my enemies is my friend." They've already embraced the idea of handcuffs and bondage in mixed company!

c) Is BDSM abuse, or legitimate play?
Wouldn't you agree that it depends upon whom you ask? And isn't discriminating against those who participate in BDSM the same as being discriminated against by others in vanilla society?

We are not the caretakers of the good name of tickling. We are not the ambassadors of harmless fun to the world. We are all individuals who all have different desires, that may be limited to tickling exclusively, or may include tickling as part of a broader range of desires. The minute we start seeking condemnation for the likes of those who would offend our personal tastes, but whom otherwise do not pose a threat to society at large, that is the minute we seek condemnation of our own lifestyles.

Did that help at all?

 

[MrPartickler]

No, the issues at least as I see them are a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum? b) Do we as a tickling community want the vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica? and c) Is violent bdsm abuse or legitimate play?

This is a good way to refocus this thread. It's honestly pretty hard to keep track with what's been addressed and what hasn't. But, without having read every individual post, I think all of these have been addressed to varying degrees.

<i>a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum?</i>
The mods determine what's inappropriate for this forum. When there is a question (like this), someone raises it and they respond. They've already done so for this clip. Also note there is an entire sub-forum dedicated to media (images) that aren't related to tickling. There's also the GenDis area which covers everything else--also usually unrelated to tickling. (I actually wonder what the reaction would have been--if any--had the clip simply been posted in GenDis.)

<i>b) Do we as a tickling community want the vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica?</i>
You may disagreee, but I don't think many really see this as a danger; it's certainly not cause for alarm. For one, the vanilla world generally doesn't "see us" at all. If they did, many would still call is abnormal freaks and be done with it. Also, there isn't exactly a landslide of these clips coming through tickling forums (that I'm aware of at least).

<i>c) Is violent bdsm abuse or legitimate play?</i>
My succinct reply: Based on this thread, I'd say it's legitimate play to those who can understand and/or appreciate it, and abuse to many who cannot. But, as many have said already, the same goes for tickling whether we want to admit it or not. Examples can be easily found for both.

 

[BellaRisa]

But as the two types of sensations escalate, the differences between them begin to widen dramatically, until we reach that point in which it becomes necessary to harm or injure the victim to achieve the desired levels of pain. This is not the case with tickling. Properly restrained, there is little to no possibility to be injured by tickling. If the Ler scratches too hard and breaks the skin, well we've moved from tickling into pain.

I have issue with the broadness of this statement. A 'lee like myself who vastly prefers deep kneading and pressure point tickling over light vellicating-style play can be just as much in danger of harm as someone who prefers activities considered pain-play by many. Trust me, I've had far worse bruises on my sides and knees from tickling sessions than from pain scenes. For many of us, tickling isn't nearly as removed from pain play as some here would like to believe, the so-called differences aren't as wide as you think.

And what about the masochistic 'lee who needs more and more, longer and longer until what she's doing can only be called breath play? A good three hour session with a dedicated 'ler has left a lot of us in WAY worse shape than a cattle prod scene, burning lungs and dripping sweat and rope marks on your wrists and ankles...ah memories...

In short, the pursuit of pain is a much more dangerous venture particularly as the recipient develops resistances and requires more and greater degrees of it. As time goes on the desire for pain begins to conflict with the natural instinct for self-preservation, and if continually fed by participating in harsher bdsm sessions, ultimately wins out. Now we've got somebody who is willing to suffer injury, and risk irreversably harm all in the pursuit of sexual fulfillment.

With respect, may I ask what or whom you're basing this on?

I've been in the BDSM Lifestyle for a long time now, attended literally hundreds of conventions and parties, and some of my mentors have been involved for 30 yrs and longer. It's extremely rare that this "risk of irreversible harm" is valid, *SSC* (safe sane and consensual) is a creed we take to heart-that's why there are countless workshops and classes all across the country on how to do what we do as safely as can be. Usually folks know what they like and stay quite safely within that realm, they have common sense and their desires jibe just fine with their survival instincts. After 8 yrs of hardcore corporal play and other intense pursuits I have yet to need to risk real injury or need to go far enough to damage myself or anyone else. And this has to be said: I've been in far more danger in tickling sessions, due to intricate japanese bondage and the intensity of play that I like, than in other Scenes.

And has anyone noticed that no one here who's actually involved in the BDSM community has issue with Redmage? I'm known on this forum for screaming bloody murder about anything nonconsensual or bullying in any way, but I have no problem with what he and other Tops here do. There's a reason for that.

Bella

 

[isabeau]

Hi Drew. I swear I'm not being argumentative about this, but I would like to address your questions.

a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum?
While I understand completely what you're saying, the fact is that associated fetishes find their way in here all the time. Foot fetishism is perhaps the single largest associated, yet off-topic category on this forum, yet no one really complains about getting rid of all the non-tickling related foot pics. How about non-tickling related drawings?

b) Do we as a tickling community want the Vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica?
What makes you think they already don't? If you were to outright ban the posting of all other types of erotica on this forum, save for tickling related material, we would appeal to no one in the vanilla society. And you want to know something even stranger yet? BDSM has made far greater strides into mainstream America, than tickling ever has. Think of how many times you see movies which make reference to spanking, bondage, whips, handcuffs, blindfolds. How many actors and actresses have we seen in tight leather and whips, high heels, or who make discussion of such things in mainstream TV and movies.

Now think about how many times you've seen them talking about Tickle Torture with the same risque, naughty commentary. Drew, we're already playing second fiddle in exposure to mainstream America to the very BDSM practices that you are condemning.

Think about all the people you've known in your life who think that tickling is pure evil - sadistic torture that serves no one other than the tickler as he or she indulges their aberrant sexual appetites.

What I'd like you to consider is that vanilla society will not view us as "The enemy of my enemies is my friend." They've already embraced the idea of handcuffs and bondage in mixed company!

c) Is BDSM abuse, or legitimate play?
Wouldn't you agree that it depends upon whom you ask? And isn't discriminating against those who participate in BDSM the same as being discriminated against by others in vanilla society?

We are not the caretakers of the good name of tickling. We are not the ambassadors of harmless fun to the world. We are all individuals who all have different desires, that may be limited to tickling exclusively, or may include tickling as part of a broader range of desires. The minute we start seeking condemnation for the likes of those who would offend our personal tastes, but whom otherwise do not pose a threat to society at large, that is the minute we seek condemnation of our own lifestyles.

Did that help at all?

you cant beat that answer... i knew Shadow could answer this one... see Shadow? how intelligent you really are??? that is a terrific answer

isabeau

 

[drew70]

Originally posted by Lamont Shadowskeedeeboomboom 😀 😀 😀
a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum?
While I understand completely what you're saying, the fact is that associated fetishes find their way in here all the time. Foot fetishism is perhaps the single largest associated, yet off-topic category on this forum, yet no one really complains about getting rid of all the non-tickling related foot pics. How about non-tickling related drawings?

Hey Shadow, great to be talking/discussing/debating with you once again, pal. You raise a valid point here, and I do acknowlege that there are entire subforums devoted to non-tk material. But these extraneous forums are limited to text and Images, since they take up relatively little space on today's servers. However video clips are many times the size of Jpeg files. Allowing non-tk video clips will take a much greater toll on server space than jpegs; and as Myriads has pointed out, "We're not made of bandwidth." Consequently it makes sense to keep tighter limitations on video clips.
Redmage posted his discovery of the clip in Tickling Discussion, so he was already off topic before he even posted the off-topic clip. Nobody seems to care yet I've seen other threads that were closer in topic to tickling removed for being off topic. Why Redmage is allowed so much slack is something I've yet to understand.

b) Do we as a tickling community want the Vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica?
What makes you think they already don't? If you were to outright ban the posting of all other types of erotica on this forum, save for tickling related material, we would appeal to no one in the vanilla society.

Well, I don't know. That's kind of a broad statement there, but I'm sure there's some truth to it. Personally, I've never been about the portrayal of tickling as sexy. I'm not saying I don't ever find it so, but I prefer the household concept of tickling to be more associated with affection and horseplay than with leather, corsettes and stillettos. Why? Because the more "vanilla" tickling is, the more likely we are to see it occur in every day situations. If we keep it associated with kinky sex and leather, that likelihood diminishes considerably.

And you want to know something even stranger yet? BDSM has made far greater strides into mainstream America, than tickling ever has. Think of how many times you see movies which make reference to spanking, bondage, whips, handcuffs, blindfolds. How many actors and actresses have we seen in tight leather and whips, high heels, or who make discussion of such things in mainstream TV and movies.

Another good point, but again it's still got that "hordcore erotica" astigma which in my opinion tickling doesn't need.

c) Is BDSM abuse, or legitimate play?
Wouldn't you agree that it depends upon whom you ask?

Not to be candid, but that's exactly why I'm asking it here. It's become very clear to me of late, that the TMF crowd might be more of a BDSM crowd who also happen to like tickling, hence, all the posturing indignation. I find myself wondering what kind of reaction that clip would get over at Tickle Theater or another tickling forum.

And isn't discriminating against those who participate in BDSM the same as being discriminated against by others in vanilla society?

Personally, I've never been discriminated against for my love of tickling. My vanilla friends know I like it. Every girlfriend I ever had knew about it. My wife knows I like it and so do our friends. The key is that we don't present it as a "sexual fetish." They just know that Drew digs tickling. Plain and simple. If I'd told these same people that I dig being whipped, hurt, degraded, or "wasped," most of them be covering their ears complaining of "too much information!" So no, I don't think it's the same. I've already gone into why I believe one is far more dangerous than the other. Speaking of which, I see that Bella has responded in tactful manner of disagreement. Gotta love her.

We are not the caretakers of the good name of tickling.

If not us, than who? I think it's a question we all need to seriously consider. Do we want to further the reputation of tickling as a kinky form of sex, no different from whips and chains? Or do we want a world in which tickling is so commonplace, there's no sexual astigma attached to it at all? Given the choice, I'll take the latter any day.

The minute we start seeking condemnation for the likes of those who would offend our personal tastes, but whom otherwise do not pose a threat to society at large, that is the minute we seek condemnation of our own lifestyles.

I agree totally, but are we talking about a difference of personal taste, like red vs blue? Or are we talking about whether there is something fundamentally wrong with deliberately inflicting pain and/or injury? If I were to tell you that I think pedophilia is not within my realm of personal taste, but I believe people should be free to pursue it, there would be few if any that agree with me. I'm not likening BDSM to pedophilia, I'm just trying show that there are things that are more fundamentally right or wrong, then simply a matter of mayonaisse vs mustard. A man deriving sexual pleasure from causing a woman pain falls into this category, in my opinion.

I have issue with the broadness of this statement. A 'lee like myself who vastly prefers deep kneading and pressure point tickling over light vellicating-style play can be just as much in danger of harm as someone who prefers activities considered pain-play by many. Trust me, I've had far worse bruises on my sides and knees from tickling sessions than from pain scenes. For many of us, tickling isn't nearly as removed from pain play as some here would like to believe, the so-called differences aren't as wide as you think.

Having a wide range of experience myself with both pain and with tickling, I think I'm as qualified as anybody to make a determination. I stand by my assertions. Those bruises on your sides and knees were caused by more of a lack of finesse on the part of the tickler than anything else. And I don't doubt that one can create dangerous situations through poor preparation and a lack of care. Tickling somebody hanging from a rooftop can certainly be dangerous. These dangers are more the result of the circumstances associated with the tickling than the actual tickling itself.

And what about the masochistic 'lee who needs more and more, longer and longer until what she's doing can only be called breath play? A good three hour session with a dedicated 'ler has left a lot of us in WAY worse shape than a cattle prod scene, burning lungs and dripping sweat and rope marks on your wrists and ankles...ah memories...

Still pretty mild compared to open wounds, broken bones, bruises, lesions, contusions, concussions, etc.

With respect, may I ask what or whom you're basing this on?

Personal observation as well as testimony from virtually hundreds of people online and by snail mail before the internet.

I've been in the BDSM Lifestyle for a long time now, attended literally hundreds of conventions and parties, and some of my mentors have been involved for 30 yrs and longer. It's extremely rare that this "risk of irreversible harm" is valid, *SSC* (safe sane and consensual) is a creed we take to heart-that's why there are countless workshops and classes all across the country on how to do what we do as safely as can be. Usually folks know what they like and stay quite safely within that realm, they have common sense and their desires jibe just fine with their survival instincts. After 8 yrs of hardcore corporal play and other intense pursuits I have yet to need to risk real injury or need to go far enough to damage myself or anyone else.

You say "The BDSM lifestyle," as if there is only one. While I don't doubt that your particular corner of the BDSM community stresses safety and consent, I don't believe either you nor Redmage can assure us this is the standard to which all or even most adhere.

PS: Mr. Partickler I don't mean to ignore you, but this response is long as it is, and I think I pretty much covered your points too, more or less. Apologies.